Cristiano Ronaldo

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adexkola said:
Ah, fair enough. Wonder where you guys get the stats from, I'm interested in seeing what his average key pass per game is.
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WhoScored has Ronaldo's avg. passes at 33.1 per game, of which 1.6 KP, at a 77.6% accuracy... these stats are consistent with previous seasons for him (his highest seasonal passing accuracy was 80%).

Di Maria 29.5 passes per game, 1.4 KP pg at 68.9% (!!). which would indicate that either he's very sloppy half the time or he tries very risky balls very often
Özil 40.4 passes pg, 2.8 KP pg at 84%.
Xabi Alonso 70.6 passes pg, 1.9 KP pg at 82.5%
Benzema 20.4 passes pg, 1.5 KP pg at 80.1%

Messi 58.1 passes pg, 1.4 KP pg (in the past 3 seasons he had an avg. of 2.1 so he's dropped significantly) at 85.9%.

*these stats only apply to La Liga this season.

Messi averages more passes and more KPs in the CL (69.5 passes pg, 2.3 KP pg at 85.4%) than in the league. Same for Ronaldo (42 passes pg, 2.5 KP pg at 85.3%). Özil drops to 2 KP pg due to two appearances as a substitute probably and Di María for some reason rises to 3.4 KP pg (he started 4 games + 1 sub app). The small sample size of the CL is most likely the culprit for this, and in the knockout stages they'll find it hard to replicate such stats.
 
Stats are always open to debate. Am I right in assuming that whoscored use the Opta key pass definition, which is basically that it leads to a shot? Pass to Ronaldo anywhere and it might lead to a shot. Pass to Higuain anywhere except just as he runs into the penalty area and it won't. Ozil, Di Maria take setpieces, Ronaldo only takes them if he's planning to shoot.

What's interesting to me about oddities like the 100% passing accuracy stat is that it almost certainly tells you what his pre-match instructions were. The whole Madrid forward line that night were 87% plus - that's got to be a tactical choice. Of course, that also means Ronaldo is disciplined enough to play to a plan and skilled enough to deliver what he's asked to do, by going sideways or otherwise.
 
jojojo said:
Stats are always open to debate. Am I right in assuming that whoscored use the Opta key pass definition, which is basically that it leads to a shot? Pass to Ronaldo anywhere and it might lead to a shot. Pass to Higuain anywhere except just as he runs into the penalty area and it won't. Ozil, Di Maria take setpieces, Ronaldo only takes them if he's planning to shoot.

What's interesting to me about oddities like the 100% passing accuracy stat is that it almost certainly tells you what his pre-match instructions were. The whole Madrid forward line that night were 87% plus - that's got to be a tactical choice. Of course, that also means Ronaldo is disciplined enough to play to a plan and skilled enough to deliver what he's asked to do, by going sideways or otherwise.
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Indeed, the obvious disclaimer is always going to be that on a team with someone like Ronaldo or Messi it would be easier racking up the Key Passes, esp. considering Ronaldo takes up to 4 shots more per game than #3 (whoever it is) and even 2 more per game than #2 Messi. Still over the course of a season the KP stat should give a fair indication of people who can spot passes into (shooting) space or who make the right decision in passing to a better positioned team mate.

There are many questions with some OPTA criteria for chance creation and the like. I'm fairy sure that assists are not counted toward Key Passes.

I recently came across some raw opta data in the form of advanced stats (duels won %, passing accuracy in opp. half %, etc.) from every World Cup since 1966, though only the most notable (statistical) performers are included (some 340 of them I believe). There are some categories which are quite vague, like 'recoveries' (how is that different from interceptions?) and 'chances created' with little or no info to go on. I might post it in the football forum for those interested.
 
I hate judging players on stats and people seem to be obsessed with doing that ever since that Moneyball movie with Pitt and Hill was in theaters, however it just confirms my opinion about Di Maria - most of the time he's a pretty rubbish player who loses the ball more often than not.

Other than that, stats aren't a way to judge a player. No two passes are alike, no two crosses are alike and no two performances are quite the same even if statistics describe them as such.
 
Sarni said:
I hate judging players on stats and people seem to be obsessed with doing that ever since that Moneyball movie with Pitt and Hill was in theaters, however it just confirms my opinion about Di Maria - most of the time he's a pretty rubbish player who loses the ball more often than not.

Other than that, stats aren't a way to judge a player. No two passes are alike, no two crosses are alike and no two performances are quite the same even if statistics describe them as such.
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Don't know that movie. Is it any good?

Anyway, stats aren't the problem, they're mere indications; it's how people interpret them and the conclusions they draw from them where it often goes wrong and where people are often trying to be too absolute.
 
Yes, it's pretty good, you should see it.

It wasn't aimed at you, I was just merely stating that in those past months those stats were used much more than before in arguments, and they've been available for a good while. In a sport like football they're, as you've said, mere indicators. Two midfielders with exact same stats aren't necessarily as good as each other.
 
I think websites like WhoScored have contributed to the increased prevalence of stats in football discussions. When someone like Michael Cox uses statistics it can be very enlightening, but using them as an Absolute Argument Clincher gets tiresome. I wonder if the proliferation of vast statistical knowledge will in time become a bit more subtle in how it's used as it becomes less of a novelty. Right now there is more statistical information available than ever and the impulse is to use it; it will level out a little in the net few years, I hope. (Although obviously more data can only be helpful if used properly).
 
Sarni said:
Yes, it's pretty good, you should see it.

It wasn't aimed at you, I was just merely stating that in those past months those stats were used much more than before in arguments, and they've been available for a good while. In a sport like football they're, as you've said, mere indicators. Two midfielders with exact same stats aren't necessarily as good as each other.
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Well, as far as I can tell stats have two big advantages and one huge disadvantage as an alternative to actually watching a player's performance.

big +
1. they're objective
2. they allow you to form an idea of a player's performance that you haven't seen

huge -
1. there are so many different variables to factor in when comparing performances statistically that any conclusion will always be riddled with caveats and uncertainties


I personally use statistics mostly in a historical sense, and at all times as my 2nd method of rating players/performances -- the 1st being actually watching them.
 
Skorenzy said:
There are many questions with some OPTA criteria for chance creation and the like. I'm fairy sure that assists are not counted toward Key Passes.
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There are two versions of the KP stat, one of them is a "led to a shot" and I think that's in the basic stats the press buy. The other one sometimes called "second assist" is the "chance creator" stat and I don't see that published very often - it may be a Optapro or Prozone thing.

I recently came across some raw opta data in the form of advanced stats (duels won %, passing accuracy in opp. half %, etc.) from every World Cup since 1966, though only the most notable (statistical) performers are included (some 340 of them I believe). There are some categories which are quite vague, like 'recoveries' (how is that different from interceptions?) and 'chances created' with little or no info to go on. I might post it in the football forum for those interested.
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http://www.optasportspro.com/fr/a-propos/blog-d'optapro/posts/2012/optapro's-event-definitions.aspx

has the optapro events.

I'd be interested, but then I'm a geek so I would say that!

Incidentally did anyone pick up the raw stats pack that City was offering? I was tempted but I realised that if I did I'd actually want to spend time working on it :D
 
I like looking at the stats, but there's a lot of misreading and pointscoring goes on particularly over things like Km covered.

I tend to look at them for specifics like, "x kept giving the ball away?" which can (because of selective editing by the brain) mean two missed passes in a minute, in an otherwise solid performance. I used to like those Guardian chalk boards where you could see who passed to who/where etc. Again a test of perception and what sticks in the memory Vs facts.

You can't judge a player that way, you certainly can't compare them that way without a whole row of buts - but you can sometimes test the validity/fairness of some of the judgements you make.
 
jojojo said:
There are two versions of the KP stat, one of them is a "led to a shot" and I think that's in the basic stats the press buy. The other one sometimes called "second assist" is the "chance creator" stat and I don't see that published very often - it may be a Optapro or Prozone thing.



http://www.optasportspro.com/fr/a-propos/blog-d'optapro/posts/2012/optapro's-event-definitions.aspx

has the optapro events.

I'd be interested, but then I'm a geek so I would say that!

Incidentally did anyone pick up the raw stats pack that City was offering? I was tempted but I realised that if I did I'd actually want to spend time working on it :D
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Thanks for that. Very helpful.

I can't find the link at the moment but some of the things that I remember are that Cruyff in WC '74 had the most 'chances created' (so KP+assists according to that glossary you linked) of all-time (well, since 1966) in total and he was 3rd per game (a little over 5 pg).
It also reinforced to me again how freaking awesome and dominant that French defense in '98 was; the backline of Thuram, Blanc, Desailly and Lizarazu, won more than 85% of their aerial duels, more than 80% of their tackles and more than 70% of their (ground) duels.
One surprising thing: Dunga's stats in two consecutive WCs (94+98), which were quite influential (think he's #1 and #3 for most passes, with Xavi 2010 in between, and the amounts of tackles, interceptions and recoveries were astounding as well).

Those are ones that I could remember and stood out.
Anyway, I'll put it up here or in a new thread if I can find it again. :D
 
AS are reporting Ronaldo will opt not to renew his contract at Real Madrid (link).
 
In the event that the preferred Madrid Cristiano exhaust the contract, Manchester United is presented as the first choice for the crack of Madeira.
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Seems legit.
 
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That article could persuade you to believe that for once a footballer is prepared to put his emotional well-being and happiness ahead of financial reward.

Idealistic but not realistic.
 
pablotatt said:
That article could persuade you to believe that for once a footballer is prepared to put his emotional well-being and happiness ahead of financial reward.

Idealistic but not realistic.
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Walking on a free transfer isn't putting anything before money, if he walks on a free he can say to potential new clubs

"You have saved £80m because you didn't pay a transfer fee, give that as a signing on fee or I'll go to a team who will"

In addition to his ordinary wages. He probably wouldn't get £80m, but that'd probably be the starting point for his negotiations, if he signed for us on a free he'd be earning £300k+ in total, I think we'd pay it as well, the problem is that other clubs would probably pay more.
 
I won't believe he wants to come back here unless he scores a load of own-goals to knock Real Madrid out against us.

That should also make the negotiations between the two clubs friendlier as well...
 
No mather what went on, is going on, or will go on, I'd always welcome him back with open arms, however unlikely his return seems.
 
Was his dream not Real Madrid? I don't see why he thought they would hold him in any different a light to any of their brilliant players over the years? They are very critical and treat players like mercanaries, he knew that before he went, I personally would not want him back, despite his abillity
 
Jaybezia said:
Was his dream not Real Madrid? I don't see why he thought they would hold him in any different a light to any of their brilliant players over the years? They are very critical and treat players like mercanaries, he knew that before he went, I personally would not want him back, despite his abillity
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I think someone else posted a few pages back that the 23 year old Ronaldo and the 27 year old Ronaldo have two different outlooks and perceive the world differently. It's not unreasonable at all to say Ronaldo can be a bit naive at times, and maybe he thought he would be the exception to the RM mercenary treatment. All this is speculation, but I for one would like to believe he's matured (he's got a kid now) and as always just wants to be loved. The United fan base has shown him nothing but love and support even after his move to Real Madrid. I'd welcome him back to the team like a brother coming home from war.
 
Jaybezia said:
Was his dream not Real Madrid? I don't see why he thought they would hold him in any different a light to any of their brilliant players over the years? They are very critical and treat players like mercanaries, he knew that before he went, I personally would not want him back, despite his abillity
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What's the punchline?
 
Nightingale said:
I think someone else posted a few pages back that the 23 year old Ronaldo and the 27 year old Ronaldo have two different outlooks and perceive the world differently. It's not unreasonable at all to say Ronaldo can be a bit naive at times, and maybe he thought he would be the exception to the RM mercenary treatment. All this is speculation, but I for one would like to believe he's matured (he's got a kid now) and as always just wants to be loved. The United fan base has shown him nothing but love and support even after his move to Real Madrid. I'd welcome him back to the team like a brother coming home from war.
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It's not so much regarding his ego/ immaturity as to the reasons I don't want him back, but we currently rely on RVP, Rooney and other game changers such as Hernandez when he comes on, any team with Ronnie in it, will be built aound CR. That is obvious, and I cannot argue and say that it shouldn't be, but despite his individual talent I just feel he would change the team too much and not in a good way. He is obviously quite selfish and can be quite wasteful sometimes, needs to look up and realise he has team mates, so as much as I love the man, and I think he is singularly a better player than anyone in our league, let alone our team, I don't think necessarily that getting him back would strengthen our XI as a team.
 
kietotheworld said:
Walking on a free transfer isn't putting anything before money, if he walks on a free he can say to potential new clubs

"You have saved £80m because you didn't pay a transfer fee, give that as a signing on fee or I'll go to a team who will"

In addition to his ordinary wages. He probably wouldn't get £80m, but that'd probably be the starting point for his negotiations, if he signed for us on a free he'd be earning £300k+ in total, I think we'd pay it as well, the problem is that other clubs would probably pay more.
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The only flaw in your argument is he could have done that when he left us, but did the complete opposite by signing a new contract and thus ensuring we got top dollar.

The situation is now the complete opposite. He is miffed Real have not offered improved terms since his arrival despite his exceptional form and, ridiculous as it may sound, feels Florentino doesn't treat him appropriately by sending him off to all awards ceremonies all by himself. He is not going to give a moments' thought to the club's best interests.

That's one distinct difference, SAF has constantly praised him and bigged him up, whether with us or at Madrid. If he was up for an award SAF would make his case as fervently as he made his case for the Cisse offside. And in the face of public humiliation at the UEFA Awards he wouldn't just be there, he would also have made an almost ludicrous case about him deserving it more just to deflect the attention.

All that shite counts for a multimillionaire with an ego as large as his talent.
 
Jaybezia said:
Was his dream not Real Madrid? I don't see why he thought they would hold him in any different a light to any of their brilliant players over the years? They are very critical and treat players like mercanaries, he knew that before he went, I personally would not want him back, despite his abillity
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His strops pissed me off big time, but I would have him back even if he cost an arm and a leg. It would be so unfair on the rest of the league it is unreal.

We would be awesome, who gives a shit about defending and midfielders :lol:
 
antohan said:
His strops pissed me off big time, but I would have him back even if he cost an arm and a leg. It would be so unfair on the rest of the league it is unreal.

We would be awesome, who gives a shit about defending and midfielders :lol:
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I feel that if he was to become more of a 'squad player' and for the team then perhaps, but still, you might as well discuss the possibility of Elmo featuring in Eastenders, he won't leave RM, cannot see it happening.
 
Jaybezia said:
It's not so much regarding his ego/ immaturity as to the reasons I don't want him back, but we currently rely on RVP, Rooney and other game changers such as Hernandez when he comes on, any team with Ronnie in it, will be built aound CR. That is obvious, and I cannot argue and say that it shouldn't be, but despite his individual talent I just feel he would change the team too much and not in a good way. He is obviously quite selfish and can be quite wasteful sometimes, needs to look up and realise he has team mates, so as much as I love the man, and I think he is singularly a better player than anyone in our league, let alone our team, I don't think necessarily that getting him back would strengthen our XI as a team.
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This is ridiculous..he wouldn't strengthen our team? let's continue playing Valencia and Young then..

Ronaldo, RVP and Rooney in the same team... :drool:
 
antohan said:
The only flaw in your argument is he could have done that when he left us, but did the complete opposite by signing a new contract and thus ensuring we got top dollar.

The situation is now the complete opposite. He is miffed Real have not offered improved terms since his arrival despite his exceptional form and, ridiculous as it may sound, feels Florentino doesn't treat him appropriately by sending him off to all awards ceremonies all by himself. He is not going to give a moments' thought to the club's best interests.

That's one distinct difference, SAF has constantly praised him and bigged him up, whether with us or at Madrid. If he was up for an award SAF would make his case as fervently as he made his case for the Cisse offside. And in the face of public humiliation at the UEFA Awards he would have made an almost ludicrous case about him deserving it more just to deflect the attention.

All that shite counts for a multimillionaire with an ego as large as his talent.
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A major flaw in your argument is that that isn't true. He signed a new contract with us in 2007 when he had no apparent intention of leaving because of the massive (deserved) wage increase after his breakthrough season, he tried to leave in 2008 but Ferguson wouldn't let him (something he was very upset about) and he finally left in 2009. At no point did he sign a new contract to ensure we got top dollar.

I'm not sure where this misconception has come from that he re-signed in 2008 to try and help us, I've seen people mention it before in discussions about Rooney's contract and whether that was why he signed in 2010. I find it strange that people think players would even consider doing this, it gives the club a massive amount of power of the player, if they were that interested in making sure the club gets top dollar for them then they could donate their signing on fee to the club, which is basically what they're doing if they sign with the intention of leaving for a fee. It's bollocks.

Being valued by his club counts for him, sure, I think it counts for anyone though, doesn't it? I've always though that's one reason why players insist upon more money even when they've enough to live like kings for 10 lifetimes, because they don't want to be paid less than people who aren't as good as them. With that in mind he'd probably want to be paid substantially more than VP or Rooney, especially with the lack of a transfer fee, given that he's better than them. It's also worth considering that Ferguson probably won't be at United by the time Ronaldo's contract expires.
 
VP said:
This is ridiculous..he wouldn't strengthen our team? let's continue playing Valencia and Young then..

Ronaldo, RVP and Rooney in the same team... :drool:
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What about it is ridiculous? I agree that would be a lovely lineup, but what about my post are you contradicting?
 
Return of the king? United alerted as Ronaldo looks set to reject new deal at Real Madrid

27 Dec 2012 12:52
Portuguese superstar will not stay in Spain beyond 2015 - suggesting he could make Fergie's day by returning to Old Trafford

Cristiano Ronaldo is set to turn down the offer of a contract extension at Real Madrid, according to Spanish newspaper AS.

The reigning La Liga champions are prepared to offer the Portuguese an improved deal that would keep him at the club until 2018 - reported to be worth between €10m and €15m per year.

Ronaldo has previously suggested he is unhappy in Madrid with AS claiming he does not feel supported by the club and will leave the Bernabeu when his current contract expires in 2015.

Ronaldo is understood to be frustrated at the club's limited efforts to back him in this year's Ballon d'Or awards, which saw arch rival Lionel Messi scoop the best player award again.

If Ronaldo does leave then Madrid must decide whether to sell him or risk seeing the player that cost them £80million leave for free at the end of his contract.

Former manager Sir Alex Ferguson has stated that he would be interested in bringing back the Portuguese winger to Old Trafford.While a return to Manchester United would be Ronaldo's preferred choice, big spending Paris St Germain would hold the upper hand should his sale turn into a bidding war.

Ronaldo has been hugely successful in Spain - netting 169 goals during his four seasons and helping the club to the league title last term.
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Heh.
 
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