Cristiano Ronaldo
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Not plenty. I can't think of many (and I'm talk of the best who have been number one in the world) who have not displayed an attitude similar to Ronaldo - obviously there are a few.
The point is this is what Ronaldo knows and what he believes would have gotten him to the top. Outside of the football pitch he has never done anything "arrogant" so it really can't be used to describe him as a person.
It would horribly presumptuous to call someone anything when you don't know them. Of course I am talking about his on pitch persona. I would say his attitude does stand out. In his United days, I grew to find it amusing and even enjoyed it when he annoyed opposing fans. But as a neutral, of course I thought he showed a lot of obsession for personal awards but that might just be because of his frustration at constantly being considered below Messi.
He's the assist leader (along with Koke) in La Liga this season so far. Benzema has become the player who's benefited the most from Ronaldo's assists as Ronaldo with Karim.
Five of the top ten players in the assist table play for Real Madrid. That's out of the ordinary. Kroos, Ronaldo, Benzema, Isco & Rodriguez.
One dimensional. All he does are the things that help teams win games.
Just seen Madrid's goals. Gosh Ronaldo is an arrogant bastard, celebrating his assists rather than the goals.
one day i said to an idiot "it's raining"
the idiot replied five months later "it is not raining, you are wrong"
idiots
the idiot replied five months later "it is not raining, you are wrong"
idiots
Ronaldo is obviously an all-time great, easily can be entered into the discussions that include other great athletes. And let's be honest here, he's better than Cantona. Maybe not on the inspirational plane but on talent Ronaldo is far superior. Cyrus is nowhere near the all-time great status in her industry. However, if you are attempting to paint a picture as Davis = Jazz, Cyrus = pop, where as Ali = boxing, Ronaldo = football, then yes, apples to oranges. But if grouping athletes into a category of all-time greats regardless of particular sport, an argument for Ronaldo's inclusion can be made. Whereas there is ZERO argument for Cyrus.
Yea that was a bit all over the place wasn't itDidn't get that post. Are you agreeing or disagreeing with me
. I think I was just making the point that there is an element of obsession about personal glory in his on pitch persona compared to other all time greats. It does stand out when you follow him and it is totally understandable that it is a turn off for some people. I don't happen to be one of those people as I warmed up to him during his days with us.I was also speculating as to maybe that extreme obsession that Ronaldo displays with setting records and winning individual awards is because he spent most of his career in the shadow of Messi. I am not agreeing or disagreeing with you I guess as I feel we're talking about slightly different topics.
Yea that was a bit all over the place wasn't it
I was also speculating as to maybe that extreme obsession that Ronaldo displays with setting records and winning individual awards is because he spent most of his career in the shadow of Messi. I am not agreeing or disagreeing with you I guess as I feel we're talking about slightly different topics.
Which reminds me how modern day footballers are so different. Part of the reason is the money. Yes previous greats were payed a lot but nothing to compared to what the top players earn now a days. If it makes sense........
You want a winner, but ridicule the winner's mentality.
The winner in Ronaldo never settles for second best, if beating Messi is what keeps him going in 5th gear for 10 years then kudos to him, most players would give up and started enjoying the sweet life (ronaldinho) instead of keeping the hunger alive and continue to strive.
He could have stopped carring about Messi and still would be the top 5 GOATS, which I'm sure many of us could only dreamt off, but he's not satisfied with being 2nd.
The winner in Ronaldo never settles for second best, if beating Messi is what keeps him going in 5th gear for 10 years then kudos to him, most players would give up and started enjoying the sweet life (ronaldinho) instead of keeping the hunger alive and continue to strive.
He could have stopped carring about Messi and still would be the top 5 GOATS, which I'm sure many of us could only dreamt off, but he's not satisfied with being 2nd.
Why always this extremist attitude? One has to either be obsessed with numbers and records or he doesn't have a winner mentality? For me the thing with Ronaldo is not even about disliking him for his attitude. A lot of times I just miss the flair he displayed in his early days, he seems to have sacrificed that for numbers and records which is obviously more efficient and beneficial for his teams and makes him nothing short of a machine. The irony though is that Messi is regarded higher exactly because of that side to his game which consists of flair and dribbling and other qualities that are not quantifiable.
Ballon d'Or shortlist coming up in the next hour or so.
If he now doesn't do 100 stepovers a game, but delivers some pinpoint crosses instead it might not be 'flair' but I know which version I'd rather have in the team.....
As I have stated myself above, it is more beneficial for his teams obviously. My point is that Messi at his best somehow managed to do both. Aesthetically beautiful as well as setting new records right and left. Ronaldo focused on mastering one at the expense of the other. Maybe he simply couldn't and he doesn't have the talent or maybe he just wanted to break as many records as possible. I really don't know.
Beauty is in the eye of the beholder though.....
For some reason I've always loved towering headed goals. Ronaldo's header against Roma in the CL (I think it was Roma?) from a few years ago where he sprang about 12 feet in the air was amazing. Also - Andy Carroll (I know....) scored a cracker for England against Sweden a couple of years ago - amazing goal.....
Not everyone can dribble like Messi, not everyone can jump like Ronaldo - horses for courses I guess
For some reason I've always loved towering headed goals. Ronaldo's header against Roma in the CL (I think it was Roma?) from a few years ago where he sprang about 12 feet in the air was amazing. Also - Andy Carroll (I know....) scored a cracker for England against Sweden a couple of years ago - amazing goal.....
Not everyone can dribble like Messi, not everyone can jump like Ronaldo - horses for courses I guess
Yup!
The first assist he had for Benzema last match was a beauty though, it even had stepovers
The most amazing bit is Ronaldo wasn't even in frame when the ball left Scholes' boot.
It's like comparing Boxing and Wushu
Just because Boxing is more direct and simple doesn't mean that it isn't an art in itself. Both can does the job equally well.
I don't have any extremist.
It seems that people here will always find something to moan about Ronaldo. I bet for him it's not about record, it's simply about being the best, and naturally the "BEST" means you'll bound to break some record along the way.
We should have admire his "not settling for 2nd" attitude, if only every footballers have that mentality.
So are you saying, you don't find those mazy runs that George Best went on, or the way Maradona or Messi can dance past defenders more exciting that powerful headers and incredibly accurate shooting technique? I am not saying that what Ronaldo does has no merits whatsoever, I am just saying that it looks to me like relatively, it is more exciting to see the aforementioned qualities and that it looks like most of the footballing world share that view. Of course that doesn't make it a fact and I guess to each his own and all of that but really?
I don't know what it seems to you. All I know is that I don't have any strong personal attachment to Ronaldo just like I don't to any other player. At least not to the point where I can't point out a flaw concerning their on-pitch persona. I try to stay detached to have as much of an objective opinion as I could. I admire him for his incredible consistency, hunger and desire. I also admire how determined he always has been and how he largely succeeded to reaching his goals. It's more than you can say for most people in all walks of life. I also find him a bit too obsessed with personal awards. It might be the case that all the top players are like him and they're just better at giving a different impression.
That's what amazes every single time I watch that goal! The best headed goal for me, personally.
That is not entirely true. He is still an electrifying player in full flow, and there have been several seasons (07-08, 10-11, 11-12, and this current season) where apart from the goals, the flair has been present in his general play.
I would include his 09/10 season in there in that regard too.
Like I said, IMO he's obsessed with being the best, and you can't be the best without breaking records. It's like saying Footballers are driven by money, egg and chicken, if you're good odds are you're paid well, if you're good you'll score goals and break records.
I don't know what's so wrong about squeezing every ounce for the benefit of the team? It's about the team, and he just happens to break the record along the way.
I failed to understand how playing well and better to help is team is deemed as a selfish things because he value personal awards? What sort of analogy is that? We're all crying for him to be effective and do less stepover back then, and when he become just that.. a Machine people complains because he's not good to watch??
Seriously, you seems to just can't appreciate the effort to attain that perfection by Ronaldo, just simply because he's not Messi
You are changing the subject and putting my words in my mouth. Why are you talking about contribution? I acknowledged already that what he does is more efficient and useful for his team. You seem to keep recycling the same argument over and over. Raw headers and such are easy to master? You are reading things now. I am not even sure if I should bother to write you anymore as you just invent arguments and respond to them but I'll give it another try. What Ronaldo does is a perfect example of an athlete doing his best to attain a level of consistency and excellence that is simply insane. This has led to him to breaking record after record and helping his team along the way as he practically guarantees his team starting 1 goal up every game. However, it is hard not to look at Messi and compare them as they play in the same league and era. It is incredibly frustrating for Ronaldo as Messi has matched him for numbers AND is aesthetically on another level. I just do wonder if Ronaldo had that in him as well but chose to sacrifice it or if he is simply not as naturally talented.
You speak of what we find to be artistic objective and fair point to you there. But I was asking a sincere question with my comparison of Best's mazy runs and Maradona dribbles. Whenever there are discussions of the best players ever, they are about aesthetically pleasing players in the style of Maradona, Van Basten, Platini and many many others. Very few go like "Gerd Muller was the best he scored that many in that much". But of course that is an assumption, I think it's a fair one but I can't talk for you hence I was asking you if you really found headers or shot more beautiful to watch than what Maradona or Messi does which you didn't really respond to.
The bolded part is just your opinion though. I really enjoy Ronaldo's runs that has much more power and pace than what Messi could muster; you could say that is just as much talent as the swirly dribbles in tight corners that Messi employs. It's a different style. Take Nani as an example. For me, he was at his most entertaining when he played direct, pacy attack by running at defenders at pace.
Not all fans find the tiki-taka style pleasing; I find it awfully boring at times. To me, good counter attacking play is wonderful to watch. That's why i always put Giggs as one of my all time favorites because of the way he was able to dribble at such high pace leaving defenders for dead with his twists and turns, acceleration and dribbles. Ronaldo does this too, but he uses his raw pace more and is even more direct. Messi is a wonderful footballer, but I'm not as excited watching him as I was watching Giggs or Ronaldo - it's just personal preference. Some people find long range passing ala Scholes the most fascinating, others the hard gritty players like Keane - again, personal preference. Was Monet superior to Picasso?
I do acknowledge that it is a personal opinion. I am a bit surprised that anyone would find a header more exciting than a dribble but to each his own I suppose. What I have an issue with though is you associating tiki-taka with what Messi does. I am not a fan of tiki taka at all, My most entertaining teams of the recent past are the United 99 side and the Dortmund 2013 side. I actually would associate what Giggs does more to Messi than Ronaldo. By aesthetically pleasing, I do not mean little short passes, I mean balance, touch, control, the ability to run with the ball and having it seemingly glued to your feet the way Maradona did for the goal against England or Best used to do regularly. This has nothing to do with the style of your team, it is simply IMO one of the purest pleasures of football as when we were kids, that's what we'd go for and try to do in the park on a Sunday. Ronaldo had that and my point is that he abandoned it, obviously he still is better than most in that part of the game but relatively speaking, his main objective seems to shoot at sight and get himself as close to goal as possible to score more. It is brilliant for his numbers and records as well as his team of course. I accept that without that sacrifice, he would probably never have matched Messi's numbers and that the standards I am judging him on are insanely high as what I am basically demanding is that he shows the flair of his early days or of Giggs's early days with the consistency and efficiency of modern day Ronaldo or Messi. Cpmbining the two is something that I actually think no player in history has achieved, unluckily for Ronaldo the only one who did happens to play at the same time.
You fail to understand my point, that you can be the best player even if you don't dribble like Maradona. Who was that black Brazilian guy that Maradona often compared to? Pele?
Van Basten wasn't esthetic, he was efficient. Beckenbauer can't dribble but he's the Kaizer. Lev Yashin can't dribble yet he's the legendary keeper.
And no, I don't find mazy dribbling ala Maradona a beauty to watch, because they fecking does that once or twice in a lifetime while Ronaldo does what he does every day. How many times does Maradona / Messi glides past 5 players and score? I can recall once each.
Other than Pele / Maradona / Messi / Ronaldo as the top 4 in everyone's head, I think it'll be a closer match between van Basten and Gerd Muller, closer than you'll ever imagine.
I don't even know what is your opinion anymore. You claim you appreciate what he does, but at the same time you belittle him by saying "but he doesn't dribble like Messi?" which I think is an insult to Ronaldo, it's kinda like laughing at a boxer because they can't do fancy moves like Wushu
I don't agree. You are basically asking Ronaldo to play like Messi, or else he will not be as good, in your eyes. They are very different players with different attributes. Ronaldo has bags of pace, is strong, can shoot with either feet, is terrific in the air and can shoot from long distance. Neither of those attributes are particularly strong suites of Messi. I know people had him down as the fastest player in the world, but that's just rubbish.
Messi has close control, agility and body balance as his strongest attributes, along with his finishing, which is on par with Ronaldo's. Ronaldo is taller and doesn't have that low center of gravity that Messi has, doesn't turn as quickly and isn't as agile in tight corners as Messi is. Why should he try to emulate that when he wouldn't be as good as Messi at it?
Ronaldo plays in a much different set-up than Messi. It's about fast counter-attacking style, which i prefer. Messi is massively part of the tiki-taka style as he is very much the focal point for their play. Messi doesn't go on runs like Ronaldo does, or like Giggs did. Ronaldo can still dribble and entertain when he feels like it, but fact is that it is far less productive than simply run past them. Giggs did that and Nani did that at his best; it's awfully efficient, and for me it's a joy to watch when they know how to. However, Ronaldo is still more about flair than a player like Bale who is more or less all about kick and run whenever I see him - efficient, no doubt.
Ronaldo wouldn't be as good or entertaining to watch at Barcelona, but Messi would also struggle more in Ronaldo's position at RM, simply because he would see the ball less and would be forced to go past his player using pace, which isn't what he's about.
Different styles, and preference is very objective. In fact, I would say it's a little bit one-dimensional to say that one style is more pleasing to watch than the other.
You should watch Messi more then because he dribbles past players ever match.
And ronaldo doesn't?
I think he's obviously saying people find more beauty and more skill in close control and intricate footwork than just using speed.
To use your boxing analogy, people probably find a lot more in a skilled fighter in the mould of Ali as opposed to a big hitter like Foreman.
To use your boxing analogy, people probably find a lot more in a skilled fighter in the mould of Ali as opposed to a big hitter like Foreman.
Your argument is consistent and I can't really argue with any logic in what you say. Where I differ from you is a matter of how we see Ronaldo's game and I accept that at least one of us might be wrong here. By that I mean that what you said about Bale is what I see in the modern Ronaldo. It's not that he isn't Messi, it's that he is nothing flair wise. I mentioned the examples of early Ronaldo or Giggs and I don't mean that they played like Messi does now, I mean that there is one form of flair in the way they played. In the case of Messi it's dribbling, in the case of Giggs and early Ronaldo, it's direct running past players. In the case of Iniesta it's closer to Messi but with control that is out of this world. Zidane had the poise of a ballerina and so on. I don't enjoy modern *** day Ronaldo because apart from efficiency and extraordinary numbers, I am left with nothing exactly what you said about Bale except of course Ronaldo is miles better and may even be the best. Like I said, I understand that this is about perspective and I might be seeing or not seeing things, but I just wanted to clarify that I am not asking for Ronaldo to be Messi because I don't think there is one form of flair, I am just saying that he now does not display any form of flair whatsoever be it his early style, fat Ronaldo's explosiveness or Messi's balance. He is perfect at shooting, heading, sniffing out chances and finishing, scratch that, he isn't good, he is as good as anybody that has ever existed but those for me count as assets and not flair or magic or whatever you wanna call it.
Apologies if the tone of my previous post was unfriendly. I just replied to someone else now and I hope you see my point a bit clearer. To sum it up, I don't think you need to play like Messi to be great. I think Ronaldinho, early Ronaldo, fat Ronaldo, Zidane all had other styles and were equally beautiful to watch in my eyes. For me, it's not that modern day Ronaldo doesn't play like Messi, it's that he plays like nothing really. He perfected every asset a footballer can have (pace, shooting, finishing, heading) which demands a crazy amount of determination, hard work and other qualities but there is no detectable style. I don't want him to have Messi's style, I just want to see some form of style in the way he plays. He is the equivalent of a robot playing around humans, programmed to perfection but with no distinguishable beauty whether that is poise, dribbling, balance or whatever you can think of.
One point where I think you misunderstood me is that I don't think this stops him being the best in the world. I believe that's a whole other discussion totally dependant on what you value when watching football which is subjective. For me it has to be a healthy combination of efficiency, consistency, flair, big game performances and maybe other factors. Ronaldo over the past year or so even with his lack of flair as far as I'm concerned scores a 10 on other categories which is enough to make comfortably the best IMO. If he was playing in Zidane's time, he would still be the best as whereas Zidane is better to watch for me, he is way below in all the other factors. Compared to Messi at his peak is when he comes short for me as that's a football who scores a 10 on all fronts. So Ronaldo for me is still one of the top 10, maybe even 5 or 3 footballers ever and the best over the past year or two.
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