Because it is wrong! It is absolutely not as clear cut as you describe it. Stronger? Certainly not.
Cristiano Ronaldo
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Because it is wrong! It is absolutely not as clear cut as you describe it. Stronger? Certainly not.
So which player now and/or historically has Ronaldo's scoring stats, was a better dribbler than robben, is a better passer than fabregas, with a vision as one of the top ten no. 10s, is as technically gifted as scholes, and is also a great decision maker?
Honestly, a lot of these categories you have arbitrarily tried to create only serve to support your agenda.
Exactly - surprised he didn't add that he wasn't as good a goal keeper as De Gea.
Aye the strength point is an odd one, suggesting a lack of objectivity.
Oh yes, Henry was certainly wiry and strong but Ronaldo is a fecking tank!
Well, it is "statpadding". How can I say this without taking anything away from Ronaldo though? Let me try.
With 13 goals in 6 games Ronaldo already surpasses Maradona's goal tally in the entire 84/85, the entire 86/87, the entire 88/89 and the entire 90/91 season with Napoli. Which automatically raises the question how much "13 in 6" is actually worth because you will have a hard time convincing many people that Ronaldo is a THAT much better goalscorer than Maradona, if at all. Consider this then. The Rayo Vallecano team Barcelona played against the past weekend has 17 new players in the squad. 9 on loan, the rest on a free transfer. They are the most extreme example but teams like Cordoba, Elche, Levante, Eibar etc. aren't any different. Then there are some teams like Athletic Bilbao which offer more quality but out of principle refuse to play defensive and push their backline 40 yards up in the Bernabeu. Just because. Meanwhile Real Madrid and Barcelona are splashing € 100M for Bale, € 90M-ish for Neymar (who knows the exact number anyway?), € 81M for Suarez, € 80M for James and so on. Illarramendi alone who is sitting on Madrid's bench is probably more expensive than the starting lineups of all La Liga teams except possibly Atletico Madrid, Valencia and Sevilla. But even with those I'm not so sure without looking it up. Atletico's wage bill is smaller than QPR's, was it? Consider also this. Once a team concedes 1 or 2 goals to Madrid/Barca, especially away from home, it usually becomes all about saving energy. Which produces 5, 6, 7 goal difference routs more often than not, unless Madrid/Barca also decide to call it a day and sub in youngstars. Some managers even rest their key players for those fixtures because they don't expect a win anyway in the Bernabeu/Camp Nou. Let's also not forget how much easier it is for the big teams to get penalty decisions compared to the small ones. THAT is the playing field in La Liga nowadays.
Not that it is much different in other leagues when it comes to the imbalance between modern super teams and regular teams (Bayern is another behemoth cannibalizing its own rivals). In La Liga the gap is just particularly big because Madrid and Barca have the whole package of history, prestige, present success, location and endless money which they don't hesitate to spend. Even the Champions League usually only starts getting interesting from the quarter finals onwards nowadays. Lots of teams to "statpad" against. How evenly matched is a game between Real Madrid and Ludogorez or Barca and APOEL Nikosia? By the time Benzema retires he too will break Raul's Champions League goalscoring record if he stays at Madrid. He's on 38 goals, only 8 goals shorts of Benfica's Eusebio, and he's only 26 years old.
I'm talking in historical context of course. All of this doesn't mean that it is easy and you can just replace Ronaldo/Messi with any other world class striker and they will pop up with similar numbers, especially over numerous seasons, or that these 2 can't score against proper teams. However those numbers and records also need to be seen in context.
There's only one guy I can think of and I think you know who that is.
I don't get how criticism of Ronaldo's all round game isn't acceptable. When people want to call him the best in the world (mostly based on his utterly ludicrous goalscoring record) then surely it's acceptable and expected that his game will be dissected? Whenever anyone says Messi is the best it's greeted with talk of how he's not as physically strong as Ronaldo, doesn't have two good feet like Ronaldo and so on.
He's a much better goalscorer than Maradona but they key issue is that not many would claim him to be a better player because of it.
Yes but when you keep scoring hattricks every other week (like nobody else does) then you probably shouldn't worry those.
The answer is pretty is pretty obvious and he's still playing. Although I'd say that you're asking for too much in one player. I don't think the person you're quoting wants all of that one player.
Ronaldo is amazing. Second best player I've seen and has to go down as a great if the game even if maybe not in the top tier according to many.
He's such a difficult one to judge. I've always felt the claims that he's a poacher have always been silly. However, it is true that he is more ineffective in the buildup than a lot of great players and his game is built around being a goal theat. For examples if there was a cl final tomorrow, I'd probably pick a peak ronaldhinio over him as I don't think Ronaldo's top level matches his, although he's been the better player over the years. If my team is struggling to function and create chances, a ronaldhinio or a messi would influence the game far more because they can do great stuff all over the pitch whereas the chances of Ronaldo getting frustrated and shut down are more,
And now for something completely different 
Roy Keane on Ronaldo, from his new book.
'We were playing Sporting Lisbon to celebrate the opening of their stadium. I saw how good Ronaldo was that day. He was up against John O’Shea,' Keane said.
'Sheasy ended up seeing the doctor at half time because he was actually having dizzy spells. The club concluded negotiations after the game.
'We always joked with Sheasy he had actually sealed the deal by playing like a f****** clown. In fairness to him, he was jet-lagged [from America] like the rest of us.'
Keane also praised Ronaldo's dedication and attitude, the legendary former hardman having played with the young forward for two years until Keane's acrimonious departure from Old Trafford in 2005.
'I liked Ronaldo straight away. he had a nice presence about him and a good attitude,' Keane said.
'After watching him train for a few days I thought: “This lad is going to be one of the best players in the world.”
'He was 17 but he was immediately one of the hardest working players at United. He was good looking and he knew it. Looking at some of the other players in front of the mirror I would think: "You f****** nugget". But Ronaldo had an innocence to him and a niceness.'
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/sport/football/article-2782606/Cristiano-Ronaldo-sent-John-O-Shea-dizzy-spells-Manchester-United-faced-Sporting-says-Roy-Keane.html#ixzz3FT7iCdXa
Roy Keane on Ronaldo, from his new book.'We were playing Sporting Lisbon to celebrate the opening of their stadium. I saw how good Ronaldo was that day. He was up against John O’Shea,' Keane said.
'Sheasy ended up seeing the doctor at half time because he was actually having dizzy spells. The club concluded negotiations after the game.
'We always joked with Sheasy he had actually sealed the deal by playing like a f****** clown. In fairness to him, he was jet-lagged [from America] like the rest of us.'
Keane also praised Ronaldo's dedication and attitude, the legendary former hardman having played with the young forward for two years until Keane's acrimonious departure from Old Trafford in 2005.
'I liked Ronaldo straight away. he had a nice presence about him and a good attitude,' Keane said.
'After watching him train for a few days I thought: “This lad is going to be one of the best players in the world.”
'He was 17 but he was immediately one of the hardest working players at United. He was good looking and he knew it. Looking at some of the other players in front of the mirror I would think: "You f****** nugget". But Ronaldo had an innocence to him and a niceness.'
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/sport/football/article-2782606/Cristiano-Ronaldo-sent-John-O-Shea-dizzy-spells-Manchester-United-faced-Sporting-says-Roy-Keane.html#ixzz3FT7iCdXa
With 13 goals in 6 games only, you might be right.
But with 269 goals in 257 games, scoring almost against every opponents he has played against, breaking every other record out there along the way, then I am afraid you sir are just talking shite.
Keane always had a lot of time for Ronaldo
Edit: What is it about both Keane and Ferguson etc thinking that Ronaldo was 17 when we signed him? He was about six months from being 19!
Edit: What is it about both Keane and Ferguson etc thinking that Ronaldo was 17 when we signed him? He was about six months from being 19!
Ronaldo's all round game is much better than most of you portray it to be.
He's more involved than simply being on the end of things.
He's more involved than simply being on the end of things.
People clinging to irrelevant intangibles to discredit him just makes them look a bit foolish these days but hey, welcome to the Internet.
Messi!
Messi and Pele for starters, and (minus obscene scoring stats) Maradona, Cruyff, Hagi, Platini, Zidane, M.Laudrup, Baggio, Ronaldinho etc.
Ronaldo's a fantastic player and hardly shit in those categories, but he's not on top of any of them, far from it. He's a devastating finisher, fast, elusive, great consistency, supreme in the air, great shot with either foot and extremely driven to maintain such a high standard.
Need more than that to be cited as the best player of all time. Scoring hat-tricks against cannon fodder doesn't get you there i'm afraid, even if his goal record is abnormal.
Ronaldo's a fantastic player and hardly shit in those categories, but he's not on top of any of them, far from it. He's a devastating finisher, fast, elusive, great consistency, supreme in the air, great shot with either foot and extremely driven to maintain such a high standard.
Need more than that to be cited as the best player of all time. Scoring hat-tricks against cannon fodder doesn't get you there i'm afraid, even if his goal record is abnormal.
Pretty much this. No one without an agenda would say Ronaldo isn't a fantastic player who will go down in the Pantheon of GOATs. 25 years from now, everyone will talk about him and Messi much like they have Maradona and Pele over the past few decades.
Ronaldo is the GOAT? 
Feck me. Now I've heard it all.
I've always maintained that Ronny would arguably be top 10 GOAT's whereas Messi would be top 3.
Think that's about right. Both their stats are inflated by the team/league they play in.
Feck me. Now I've heard it all.
I've always maintained that Ronny would arguably be top 10 GOAT's whereas Messi would be top 3.
Think that's about right. Both their stats are inflated by the team/league they play in.
Why are you just listing number 10s? Why is a number 10 the pinnacle of football? Maldini, Charlton, Beckenbauer say feck you.
A more reasonable debate would be to list the wingers that still surpass Ronaldo, based on peak performance, and longevity. That would be interesting to see. The likes of Cruyff, Best, Garrincha would be good comparison points.
Edit: Add Stoichov (sp?), Figo, Giggs, Ronaldinho to that category. Of all the ones I've mentioned, only Cruyff stands tall, exceeding even Ronaldo, because of his all dominating presence even from a winger position. I think Brwned explains it much better. But Ronaldo doesn't look out of place in that category.
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Ronaldo is the GOAT?
Feck me. Now I've heard it all.
I've always maintained that Ronny would arguably be top 10 GOAT's whereas Messi would be top 3.
Think that's about right. Both their stats are inflated by the team/league they play in.
The Pantheon of goats = among the top players ever - not the top player.
You can't possibly define the greatest ever player, nor prove it by facts and figures.
So therefore you'd just assume he's one of the best, in a great collection of players.
So therefore you'd just assume he's one of the best, in a great collection of players.
You are comparing a wing forward with a list of no.10 I am afraid. Their roles are just different for fair comparison.
To be fair to judge who is the better player you need to assess from how far he exceeds from his given role. Ronaldo in wing forward does exceed as far as those you have mentioned in their no.10 roles.
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Ronaldo's stats in this season are far less impressive when you look at the general calibre of teams he's playing against. He's in form now but playing teams such as Ludogrets, Rayo, Elche, Deportivo Basel, Cordoba, etc. He's scored hat tricks against Athletic (5-0), Elche x4 (4-1), Deportivo (8-2). When your team has the service that madrid does in open games against incredibly poor Liga opposition, its not surprising a player like Ronaldo is racking up the goals tallies. When a forward scores 3 goals of 8 against clearly an incredibly poor opposition, is that really a surprise? Ronaldo is one of the greatest players to ever play the game but to say he's the greatest ever or even in the top 5 is ludicrous. His achievements throughout his career are impressive but not even the best when compared against current players (you know who). For me, he will go down as one of the 10 best players ever and I think thats fair.
Wow, this thread never ceases to amaze. The length to which haters go to desperately play down Ronaldo is unbelievable. Amusing nonetheless.
So why aren't any other players keep scoring hattricks as well against those team you have mentioned? It surely doesn't prove him to be the best player of all time just from those matches alone, but far less impressive? Come on.
Well i am certainly not saying that Ronaldo is the greatest of all time and i agree that Messi probaby outshines in a few of the other areas mentioned.
But raising these arbitrary benchmarks to put down ronaldo's performances is just weird.
But raising these arbitrary benchmarks to put down ronaldo's performances is just weird.
Yeah, I'd say that's about right. Ron should be considered in that pantheon.
This is a good point - by his argument Beckenbauer could never be considered one of the best players because his dribbling was not as good as Best's.
RedRonaldo made a good point - consider how players are redefining their positions - and exceeding the performance of all others in that role.
So a better activity would be to put together a team of the best ever players - and argue over the merits of different players at their respective positions.
This GOAT business is a difficult one for me, certainly the best player I have seen live in the flesh is CR7 without doubt, although the best doesnt necessarily mean may fave, which is a toss up between Cantona & Keane himself. I always feel when talking about GOAT is does a little disservice to players of yesteryear because the game has evolved so much even in my lifetime, so just imagine Messi or CR7 playing with balls they used to have in 50s & 60s and on the type of pitches not like the bowling green we are used to at OT. Its a question that will never be directly answered but will be debated forever more. In the period mentioned, and based on clips I have seen the likes of George Best, Eusebio & Pele were all special players with Pele widely acknowledged to be the best player certainly in that period. In the 70s & 80s, there was Maradona, Cruyff, Gascoigne & Platini. In the 90s & early 00s there was the brazilian Ronaldo, Zidane, Figo. All fantastic players from different era's of the game - impossible imo to determine the best.
Talking about Ronaldo scoring stacks of goals against cannon fodder, who did Pele score his goals against then? In the Brazilian league of course, for Santos. Does that mean we should belittle his achievements? No, I thought not...
Ronaldo used to be a better dribbler than he is these days, or so it would seem at least. However, could it also be that he, along with the coaching staff, has simply decided that he benefits the team more from keeping a high tempo and running past players as that is much more effective? He's also a very good passer, but there's a reason why he isn't down in center midfield passing the ball - it's because he's much more beneficial to the team scoring goals. His vision is actually very good as he has about as many assists as Messi does over the last few years. Also, how can anyone argue that his decision making is poor when he has the stats that he does?
Sure, Iniesta appears to have better close control, but that doesn't mean that Ronaldo's technique is worse; it's different. Remember that Messi loses the ball more than Ronaldo does according to stats, and I'm not sure that he tries to go past players more either. Messi dribbles differently from Ronaldo, but is he more efficient and does he get past more players regularly? I doubt it. If Messi had Ronaldo's pace and strength, I think he too would try the more efficient approach. Ronaldo would struggle to emulate Messi as he ultimately lacks the insane balance that Messi has.
Those saying that Ronaldo isn't one of the greatest of all time are seriously deluded!
Sure, Iniesta appears to have better close control, but that doesn't mean that Ronaldo's technique is worse; it's different. Remember that Messi loses the ball more than Ronaldo does according to stats, and I'm not sure that he tries to go past players more either. Messi dribbles differently from Ronaldo, but is he more efficient and does he get past more players regularly? I doubt it. If Messi had Ronaldo's pace and strength, I think he too would try the more efficient approach. Ronaldo would struggle to emulate Messi as he ultimately lacks the insane balance that Messi has.
Those saying that Ronaldo isn't one of the greatest of all time are seriously deluded!
I think it's just tiring these days, nor do I understand the agenda behind it.
Maybe not the right thread, but people talking about GOAT, where would Ronaldinho have ranked if he could have maintained his highest level for 7 seasons+.
Would you say he reached the same ceiling as Ronaldo and Messi are at currently now?
Would you say he reached the same ceiling as Ronaldo and Messi are at currently now?
I couldn't find any data pre-2012 that details the success rate of dribbles/take-ons, but in any case Messi performed more than double the amount of "successful dribbles per game" than Cristiano in the period 2009-12 (4.83 v 2.37 to be exact). That trend continues even now, although Messi's dribbling has clearly deteriorated in 2013-14 while Cristiano's remains around the same level (50-55%).
Take-ons per 90 minutes (success rate %)
*2012/13 La Liga
- Messi: 4.15 (63%)
- Cristiano: 1.89 (53%)
*2013/14 La Liga
- Messi: 5.15 (59%)
- Cristiano: 2.34 (55%)
*2013/14 Champions League
- Messi: 3.57 (48%)
- Cristiano: 2.27 (57%)
*2014 World Cup
- Messi: 5.94 (63%)
- Cristiano: 1.33 (50%)
*2014/15 La Liga
- Messi: 3.57 (45%)
- Cristiano: 1.50 (50%)
For me Ronaldinho still goes down as the most talented player I've ever seen. In terms of sheer ability he's comfortably the equal of Ronaldo and Messi and in today's game where defences are generally weaker (I do think that the defensive aspect of the game has declined across the board in the last 10 years or so) he'd have scored a lot more. He'd also have been far more effective if he kept himself in the kind of shape top footballers keep themselves in these days.
I don't think he'd be putting up Ronaldo/Messi numbers though, regardless. Messi and Ronaldo have honed themselves into incredibly efficient players and sacrificed some of their flair along the way, which is something I can't imagine Ronaldinho ever doing. Messi and Ronaldo have bettered themselves by relentlessly perfecting the aspects of their games which made them effective, whereas Ronaldinho tried to pull of ridiculous moves simply to see if it was possible.
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All the teams in the premier league have played 7 games, take Ronaldo's 13 goals in 6 games, that rate is 15 goals in 7 games.
Only Chelsea have managed to outscore Ronaldo so far this season.
Only Chelsea have managed to outscore Ronaldo so far this season.
Flip those around and you can see Messi has more than double unsuccessful dribbles per game than Ronaldo.
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