25 hattrick for Madrid is a crazy stat.
Cristiano Ronaldo
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The thing is, it's all well and good downplaying his overall play (which is actually very good, but totally overshadowed by his ridiculous ability to be in the right place at the right time to grab a chance and put it in the net, itself an otherworldly quality that few have ever possessed) and saying he's not in the all-time top 10 but who the hell gets in the top 10 before him?
His peak is longer and more effective than anyone apart from Messi so you boil it down to pure talent but then that's entirely subjective. You can't simply ignore the statistics side of things as if it's damn easy to score 50+ goals a season, every season for a sustained period of time when only he and Messi have ever done that.
His peak is longer and more effective than anyone apart from Messi so you boil it down to pure talent but then that's entirely subjective. You can't simply ignore the statistics side of things as if it's damn easy to score 50+ goals a season, every season for a sustained period of time when only he and Messi have ever done that.
For me, consistency means more than performing in an important one off game or short tourney like the World Cup. And Ronaldo and Messi are just machines. I'm no expert in stats but I'll wager that only a few (if any) of the all time greats have been as consistent in their domestic leagues.
Absolutely agree.
Using the World Cup as a criteria is daft. It would put T. Muller closer to Maradona than Messi is.
Couple things there. His shooting ability is a debatable one. Shots to goals ratio is always poor isn't it? No doubting he has a jackhammer of a right foot (and a left one come to think of it), but the number of shots he takes per game is astonishing, and quite often from silly distances. Makes him less of a team player when others are in better positions, but it's his killer instinct in front of goal where he excels, like you mentioned.
Don't think his vision is one of his stronger attributes either IMO, he's an excellent crosser of the ball and one of his more underrated attributes, but I don't see him as the sort who could drop into the number 10 role and pick through defences with a single pass, otherwise you've just described a brilliant centre-forward. I'd agree on his will to be the best, it's admirable, and in terms of sheer consistency since he joined Madrid he's very unique.
That's where I draw the line though. He's a brilliant player and will rightly go down in the pantheon of greats, but he's lacking that one ingredient that makes players like Maradona and Messi so special. Players who do things on the pitch that leave you speechless at times or make you go 'what the feck did he just do!?', whether that's dribbling their way out a tight spot, taking out an entire defence with a single pass not even TV viewers could see, being the hub of a great team goal, or scoring one in daring fashion. Ronaldinho had that but he spunked his talent up the wall before he even hit his peak.
I think people discredit defenders and goalkeepers too. Some of the saves Schmeichel used to pull off was ridiculous, a player you could fear as much as seeing Giggs running at your full back, and he was a goalkeeper. I see a little bit of that in Neuer actually. Would you rate Ronaldo well ahead of Schmiechel though? One of the greatest goalscorers Vs arguably the greatest goalkeeper of all time. See, my top 15-20 wouldn't be overloaded with every attacking player under the sun, it's just unfair.
I loath Barcelona. Always have ever since they broke our hearts in 2000, and Mourinho started a European rivalry in 2005 that went on well after he left, reached new levels of hatred in 2009, less said the better btw. I won't lie though, I was drawn to Ronaldinho's trickery when he was playing in his pomp, I was in awe of Ronaldo when he scored 47 goals in the late 90's, I liked Luis Enrique ALOT as a player and I soon let any grudges against Messi slide for getting Del Horno sent off after his 2008/09 form.
Re the rest, see above. I'm not using Ronaldo's petulance against him, that's nothing to do with his ability, that's his personality, though admittedly he doesn't endear himself very well when he's throwing tantrums for not getting the ball, going to ground easily or just looking distant to his team mates when he's not the centre of attention.
Is the Champions League not the 'grandest of stages' in many ways? His goalscoring record in the tournament is fantastic. Is Best shit because he never played in a WC or Giggs or Weah for that matter. That metric is bollocks. Yes it is obviously a sign of class if you can bang the goals in at a WC or EC, but it's not the only metric of greatness.
I don't think we can exclude that both Ronaldo and Messi, as goal freaks, played in one of the most unbalanced and oligopolistic eras of football if not the most. It's one thing to compare them with each other, and with the players of their time, but let's face it, they're in the perfect time and place to build these stats. Neither can come to close to reproduce them at a NT level for example...
It certainly is easier to score 4 goals in one game when your cheapest team-mate would cost about €30m, the average one about €50m, and your team has a budget 40 times greater than some of the teams in the same league. None of the past glories played in these conditions, at least not in such extreme versions of them.
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Think shedend is taking a narrow view of vision, specifically as passing and what a player does on the ball. Ronaldo's vision and movement off the ball is among the best I've seen, a major reason why he is so difficult to play against.
The guy is amazing. Both he and Messi will go down top10 players to have ever played the game.
I'm 32 and in my lifetime i've never seen anyone at the level of Ronaldo and Messi.
I'm 32 and in my lifetime i've never seen anyone at the level of Ronaldo and Messi.
Lot of great memories in this video.
They'll be number one and two surely. As great as your Maradona's and Zidane's have been in the past, neither compared to the two freaks that are Ronaldo and Messi. Absolutely phenomenal players.
Easily in top 15-30 players to have played for both United and Madrid.
Why do people still put way to much emphasis on the WC? The CL is a stronger tournament, with a higher percentage of the world's best players in it, and both of them have ruled over it for ages.
How many players that have played for us and Madrid have been better? Owen? Heinze?
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I think it will be a case where their legend will grow after they retire.
At the moment while they are playing, Pele and Maradona will always be in-front, but once they've stopped playing, I think that's when Messi and Ronaldo will starting coming into the mix and it will be the case was best between the 4.
That happens, we should be proud one of those players have 'Manchester United' on their CV and won the best player in the world award here, because I think that's something Manchester United are missing.
Proper global legends, I'd argue we only have had 2 play for us (Best and Ronaldo).
The Cantona's/Rooney's/Charlton's/Keanes/Edwards, great as they was are just cult legends really, Bobby Charlton is domestic legend because of the 1966 World Cup, but doesn't have that global legend status where people will remember him forever outside Britain.
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It's more about doing something special without the advantages of the unprecedented wealth, resources and stacked quality of their club sides. Of course the standard of the final stages of the Champions League or an el classico derby is very high. But international football has remained largely unchanged since time immemorial and is a useful constant for comparing the impact of players across generations, without the skewing effect of the changing club game.
Perhaps you've missed the past 3 pages.
Unless Messi does something spectacular soon I see Ronaldo going for his third Ballon D'or this season and rightly so. The votes are counted in December right? Two of these beauties will go down as the best in history.
Yeah, but barely scraping into that list. He's got a lot longer to go before he can truly mark himself down in that category.
I don't see how it would be rightly so? Cristiano clearly had a better season than Messi but better 2014(that's what the criteria is, right?)? Not for me. He had an injury troubled final few months, a poor World Cup and now looks back to his best. Messi also had a poor end to the season, a good World Cup (though poor by his usual standards) and now looks a lot better. He edges it so far.
Not sure it should go to either to be honest, though there's a lack of a clear standout elsewhere.
I get the impression you have this reply saved somewhere on your desktop, ready to bring up when a noob questions the relevance of international competition
Indeed I had.
After posting it and re-reading your comment, I did wonder if I was mis-interpreting your post. I thought you meant top players for United and Madrid, but misphrased it to make it sound like players that had appeared for both. There was no misphrasing and I made a fool of myself.
Move along people, nothing to see here.
Ronaldo's already won it this year with Madrid winning the Champions League, Ronaldo broke the goalscoring record in the Champions League (18 i believe), so he was the main influence in Madrid winning it.
It's got to be him really.
I'm sorry, but if that's your criteria for a brilliant player then Ronaldinho is definetly the greatest. He did things Maradona could only dream of doing. For me a great player is all about consistency. Ronaldo and Messi are unrivaled.
1. Messi 2. Ronaldo 3. The rest
IMO, it's nostalgia that makes you think Maradona was greater than Messi and Ronaldo.
I'm sure it contributes to about half my post count on the Caf.I get the impression you have this reply saved somewhere on your desktop, ready to bring up when a noob questions the relevance of international competition
Go on...
No way. He was more highly recognised in the Ballon D'Or awards than Best and was better known around the world (until Best started getting in the papers for his off-field activities).
Zidane is right up there IMO
If it's about doing things on the pitch that leave you speechless then Anderson would be an all-time great.
Do you think when people talk about the best players to have ever played the game, Bobby Charlton get mentioned in countries in South America/Asia and other parts of Europe?
I don't personally, as said i think Bobby Charlton's legend is more domestic at best, whereas George Best name is pretty iconic, people will know of him/know his face/know of his talent all around the world.
His legend is below that of Pele/Maradona who are just god's really in football and in a tier on their own, but i think George Best is on a tier alongside Cruyff/Beckenbauer/Platini/Di Stefano/Euesbio who are right below them in my opinion.
Don't tell me some of the things he does don't excite the average football fan. His dribbling too is very underrated, he very rarely loses posession while attempting to get passed his man. I agree that Messi's dribbling is on a different level though.
I don't really know what you mean by scoring in daring fashion but some of the goals he scores are hardly your everyday goals, surely?
And I'm not even going to start with some of the screamers he scored from outside of the box after a dribble or two.
That's all fair enough I guess.
I think it's a fairly common fact that Ronaldinho technique is unmatched.
He and Messi have surpassed Maradona and Pele.
How much have you watched of what is generally considered the best 20 players in history? Cruyff, Di Stefano, Beckenbauer, Pele etc?
The reason Maradona was better than Messi is - is because he played further down the pitch and managed to use their pretty similar attributes to a greater effect. Messi is constantly trying to beat his centre backs and he requires the team to make sure he gets enough touches to in the end succeed with it and score.
Maradona played as an advanced midfielder, and used the similar traits to beat a man or three in the midfield to then have opened up enough space in the opponents defense that he could find a through-ball to someone else who would then score/assist the goal. At times he of course went on to finish it himself, and he was like a magnet towards the ball, constantly getting involved around the ball.
I can name an all-time defense which would stop Messi quite comfortably if he didn't have a dominating team around him too. But I can't name a defense and midfield which would stop Maradona from having a good game.
Only got 4 tonight and some nice link-up play, clearly deteriorating, we should steer clear.....
As much as I love Zidane, it's becoming clear to me that Ronaldo and Messi are a class above everyone in a long long time.
You misunderstand me. Obviously I've taken consistency into account, but I'm adding "big game" performances and their NT careers as a whole because as @Gio rightly points out NT performances are quite valuable in rating a player (outside of his comfort zone) and the "one-off" important games tend to stack up in players of this calibre's careers, so it's not at all unreasonable to expect them to perform in the majority of them.
And why exactly am I suddenly throwing their club careers out the window according to you? Müller's international career is clearly better than Messi's, but overall it's not particularly close.
Why would it be the "only metric of greatness"? How did you even gather that from my post? All I meant was that Messi had a good WC, so that works in favor of his standing... it'd be weirder if one thought that having a good WC didn't impact a player's standing at all, wouldn't you say?
By grandest of stages I'm referring to stuff like title-deciding matches, semi-finals and finals, any game against title rivals etc. The WC fits into it too maybe more on prestige, but from the knock-outs on I'd definitely include it.
It's also a matter of gradation... Let's take your example Best, based on the WC/EC history of N.Ireland it's clearly unreasonable to expect him to have led his NT to glory... it is not however unreasonable to expect him to have qualified them to a tournament, as they managed it before ánd after his international career. In the same sense, Atlético's title win is clearly a lot more impressive than any single one of Barça or RM's, is it not? From that it should follow that Diego Costa scoring 27 league goals for Atléti is a lot more impressive than Cristiano scoring 31 for RM or Messi 28 for Barça.
Frankly I don't see why people are in such a hurry to crown these two as the best ever... retrospect will also have a great impact in how they will be viewed. Say, Bale and Neymar take over as the main men in a couple of seasons' time and begin to put up identical numbers (40-50+ goals per season) -- surely that would raise certain questions about Cristiano and Messi?
Zidane will always have what he did at the World Cup over Messi and Ronaldo. Now obviously if this changes it would be unquestionable the Messi and Ronaldo will be ranked.
If your going to pick a all time best 11 to run for a whole season then both Messi and Ronaldo beat Zidane hands down.But a one off match in a final(WC or CL)then Zidane easily matches both Messi and Ronaldo and in some cases beats them.
I don't think it's so clear cut.
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