Cantona is the king of assists you idiot.
His visionary pass, through-balls, backheel pass are absolutely top class.
Cristiano Ronaldo
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Cantona is the king of assists you idiot.
His visionary pass, through-balls, backheel pass are absolutely top class.
Good post.
The problem is that especially Messi fanboys have to make Messi the best player for all attributes; he is the fastest footballer, he is the strongest, the best passer, the best dribbler, and probably the best tackler as well. It's a bit ridiculous. It's his close control, finishing and dribbling in tight situations that make him stand out above the lot, that coupled with his insane consistency. He's not very fast over distance and his small stature means that Ronaldo will always have the physical advantage. Yes, Messi is the better passer, but it's not a great part of Ronaldo's game, which is fair enough.
Thanks to Rino Gattuso mostly.
Jesus.
Cantona was a good player, but he played in the fifth best league in the world. He's a key (if not the central) figure in our rebirth as a club no doubt, but he was never a world class level player. Comparing his passing to a greatest of all time level player like Messi is madness.
No one says this. Why do people always want to argue against something no one has said?
Yet his "apprentice" from the so called "fifth best league in the world" won the CL and treble few years later.
He wasn't a busquets but he wasn't as bad a striker playing midfield.
Come on, accordingly to CM (or FM) or any other football manager game I could remember playing during the 90s, Cantona's passing and creativity stats was always on the maximum level. Yet I don't think Messi has the maximum passing rating ever from the FM.
Joking aside, he had always topped the league assists list. Did you remember any of his visionary pass and genius backheel pass? Its truely extraodinary at that time.
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I didn't say you said this, but others have argued similarly in the past, just as you erroneously argue that he's the best passer in the world.
Mario Jardel must be an all time great too then, given he went round destroying to Portuguese league and Porto won the CL a few years after he left.
The Premiership was 100% the 5th best league in the world then. Well behind Italy, Spain, France and Germany.
It managed to push ahead of France by the late 90s and probably Germany by the early-mid 00's and pulled away as the top league by the mid-late 00's with Spain being the best league again now.
Messi's passing is at an time level in terms of greatness is it now? Sure he's by far the best player of his generation but come on...
Not necessarily - it depends on what type of attacker you were. Fat-Ronaldo wasn't known for his passing, but his top level was insane. Some players use their dribbling and pace for all it's worth whereas some use their strength and some use their vision and passing. You can say that about every player - Messi would be even better having the strength of Drogba and the aerial skills of Ronaldo...
Don't think anyone has said that. Agree with the consensus (we've found one here, right?) that Messi isn't as good at passing overall as the likes of Xavi but that his ability to play the final ball rivals anyone in world football right now. His passing in that 5-0 win over Real Madrid was phenomenal, the two assists he gave to David Villa were jaw-dropping.
So it would be unfair to use anything pre 1995 as we were still banned in Europe for one of the years.
1995 - 5th
1996 - 7th
1997 - 6th
1998 - 6th
1999 - 6th
2000 - 5th
2001 - 3rd
2002 - 3rd
2003 - 3rd
That's the UEFA coefficients for the European Leagues.
The Premiership was a poor league in the 90s.
And how were these coefficient points awarded? Based on European comps?
You can't be serious with these coeficients rating. Besides there was foreigner rule at time, we could never field our best players in Europe.
Well and we have those top players like Crespo back then who came as top striker from the best league, and thought himself he would easily scored 30 goals in Premiership every season, it didn't work that way.
Back then? Crespo moved to Chelsea in 2003. Six years after Cantona retired
Same way they're done now.
Ah this old nugget. So often to excuse of people who didn't actually watch football back then.
The foreigner rule was gotten rid of in 1995. We played two seasons in the European Cup with the foreigner rule in place.
England still did poorly in Europe in 96, 97 and 98, what's the excuse for that? Even in 99 when we won the rest of England's participants were so poor we were the 4th best ranked on points for that season.
We got the 13th most points in Europe in 1996.
the 5th most points in 1997.
and the 5th most points in 1998.
4th in 1999
All done with no foreigner rule in place.
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Even weirder is the fact that no-one seems to be aware that the foreigner rule applied to every team in UEFA competitions prior to 1995, not only English sides (the only point of contention is when it comes to British players, but UEFA's conclusion there makes perfect sense, to me anyway)... How exactly is that an issue @RedRonaldo ?
Exactly, and despite knowing the rules English teams continued to sign foreign players then knew they couldn't play in Europe and then whine that they couldn't pick them. We were the ones stupid enough to keep signing players we knew we couldn't pick in Europe, only ourselves to blame.
We signed Cantona for example despite already having 8 foreigners on the books.
In 93/94 we still had five foreigners on the books even if they'd let us have Scottish, Welsh and Northern Irish players count as English.
I know and I agree. But when people make such an argument about goalscoring also being bound by some of those specifics you mention (and many others), it receives far less understanding.
Assists and throughballs, etc. are dependent on dozens of factors apart from the player himself, but I guess goals are goals nothing more, eh? Go figure.
On a sidenote, I don't think the examples you gave "to aim at" are very good ones. Iniesta almost never makes those off the ball runs, Pedro and Sánchez do it very infrequently as well in the last two seasons anyway (Pedro and Villa 2010-12 made loads of those runs, hence Messi's TB per game stat being so high in those seasons). Neymar this season has at times provided a decent "target" but still nothing close to what, say, a Walcott does at Arsenal, or, if you want to stay in the Messi context, what Tello does.
What argument did I make about goalscoring?
Maybe I'm wrong about those runs but my observations of Barcelona are different to yours. So I'm in my right to disagree with you there. Note the types of runs I'm talking about are not the conventional type as Barcelona are a unique playing outfit. Again, dozens of factors. As you've pointed out.
Exactly. It's fascinating the biases you find on here.
You're joking, right?
Back then? Crespo moved to Chelsea in 2003. Six years after Cantona retired
I am referring to your listed coefficent period from 1995 to 2003.
Well its not as black and white as you would have described. Because of the foreigner rule, Fergie has to sell some of our best players at that time and to promote the kids straight from the youth academy. It didn't took us long to rule the Europe though. Fergie first generation was still widely regarded as one of the finest team he has ever coached, despite the huge success we enjoyed in the later years, where Premiership later became arguably the best league in Europe in the mid-late 2000's.
There's huge difference if you were not aware at that time, even players like Irwin and Keane was regarded as foreigners in Europe. Whereas in Italy, they already have similar foreigner rules in their league which means their first team hasn't been affect much when playing in Europe.
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At that time there was 3 foreigners + 2 players assimilated foreigners we could field.
Foreigners being Cantona, Kanchelski, Schemeichel and Keane
Assimilated foreigners being Hughes, Giggs, McClair and Irwin
Hence we are always have this situation where 3 of our first team players won't be playing. Adding to the fact that we didn't have a deep squad at that time, we have to field those reserve players to make up the numbers at times against the giants from Italy and Spain.
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That part wasn't aimed at you, just a general observation on how lots of people will call for context in matters like assists/passing/dribbles, whatever else, but then won't entertain the same notion when it comes to goals for some reason.
Re: off the ball runs. In statistical jargon (Opta) a through ball is defined as "An attempted/accurate pass between opposition players in their defensive line to find an onrushing teammate (running through on goal)"... hence requiring off the ball runners going into the space behind the opponent's backline. What types of runs are you then talking about if not these?
England was a top league by 2003, not as good as Spain or Italy but getting there. As the coefficcient period is a 5 year one to 2003 stat is relevant as it covers the late 90s when we weren't good.
Absolute crap. Show me any foreign player we sold because of the foreigner rule. By the time we had our big you won't win anything with kids season the foreigner rule had gone.
Nah, the early teams were nowhere near that level and the European performances show. Constantly getting dumped out in the groups. We were awful in Europe between 1992 and 1996. It wasn't until Fergie replaced the Hughes/Ince/Cantona team with the Class of 92 side that we became a top side.
Just look at the Blackburn side who won the league (they're better because you have no emotion attached to it so you can see how poor they were)
--------------Flowers----------------
---Berg---Hendry--Pearce--Le Saux---
--Ripley---Atkins--Sherwood--Wilcox--
----------Shearer---Sutton------------
That's nowhere near the kind of quality you need to win the league these days. That team wouldn't even get top four in the current Premier League, the only top quality they have is Shearer the rest is nothing but workhorses and mediocrities.
Definitely not.
I'm in agreement there are plenty of factors in a goal. There is no statistic in the world that carries relevance without context. Perhaps understandable why someone may neglect that with goals as goals are the most tangible and visible statistic in football other than the final score.
Now with Barcelona, we must break down the "off the ball run" element. Let's look at two ends if a spectrum - RM and Barca. For real, an off the run ball will be much more visible. They play into open space. Big gaps. Fast running into space. But for Barca, it won't be as natural to see to the eye because Barca is all about right spaces. Tight compact playing style. A through ball will likely be to a player who has made a mere few steps in a tight space.
And we must also consider the inaccuracies in the statistic. All of this is judgemental.
Messi is not a Riquelme/Scholes/Xavi/Pirlo level of passer simply because he doesn't play the role where that variation of passing is needed from him. He may be the best passer of a final ball in the game there are a few other names in the conversation (Ozil/Iniesta/Fabregas). Ronaldo is an above average passer it just isn't a part of his game that he particularly utilises. He isn't an elite player when it comes to playing the final ball. It isn't light years of separation but add that into the fact that Messi has superior vision then there is a comfortable gap between the two. He sees passes Ronaldo doesn't and even if Ronaldo could see them he couldn't execute them with the consistency Messi does.
@Rossa I disagree that Benzema can make the ball stick/hold up the ball better than Messi does. Messi is not as fast as Ronaldo/Bale/Di Maria. But he has a burst and once he beats a player, they don't catch him. Giving the space/freedom/flexibility the Real forwards are able to work with, Messi would work wonders.
But like I say preference. Ronaldo is definitely an upgrade on their wide players going forward. Would he press and chase down like Pedro/Villa did? I don't think he could play the false 9 like Messi did either.
For me Messi is the best no.10 in the world but he plays 'false 9'
@Rossa I disagree that Benzema can make the ball stick/hold up the ball better than Messi does. Messi is not as fast as Ronaldo/Bale/Di Maria. But he has a burst and once he beats a player, they don't catch him. Giving the space/freedom/flexibility the Real forwards are able to work with, Messi would work wonders.
But like I say preference. Ronaldo is definitely an upgrade on their wide players going forward. Would he press and chase down like Pedro/Villa did? I don't think he could play the false 9 like Messi did either.
For me Messi is the best no.10 in the world but he plays 'false 9'
You really have a bad memory.
Mark Huges and Kanchelski were subject to foreigners/Assimilated foreigners restriction under the rule, we sold them during summer of 1995 to accomodate the kids. The foreigner rule was later scraped in December 1995.
Rubbish, absolutely nonsense. There's no way you were actually around then watching us play.
Even without them we still had Schmeichel, Keane, Irwin, Giggs, Cantona, McClair as foreigners.
We sold Kanchelskis because he fell out with Fergie.
We sold Hughes because he was past it by 1995 and had a poor season the year before.
They were sold for other reasons, but Fergie developed the kids with the foreigner rule in mind, because CL is the only trophy he has been missing during our domination in England in the 90s, and there's no way we could ever field our best team in Europe before the kids broke into the scene.
Come on, many would regard our first team as one of the finest at that time, its a pity it could never be realized in Europe.
He "developed" the class of 92 because we had a load of a really talented players coming through at once. The foreigner rule made no difference at all. As evidenced by the fact we still have 6 foreigners in 1995.
It makes a huge difference. Just give it a second of thought, we have been fielding some untalented reserved players in Europe for years because of this stupid foreigner rule, while our first team players has dominated the game in England while attracting big attention to the world (the large worldwide fans base begins during the Cantona era).
What would Fegie has on his mind? Surely we need to have better home grown players on the field when we can't field our best foreigners against the likes of Milan and Barca? Hence we start to seriously develop our best young kids from our own youth academy. Surely the class of 92 is a one-off, but if you think Fergie didn't have this on his mind before this happening, you would be too trivial to understand the old man's thinking.
The rivalry between RedRonaldo and Blasphemy is almost as exciting as Ronaldo vs Messi.
Heading and shooting are always massively important for any attacking player. If Messi could head or shoot like Ronaldo he'd probably be a better player than him.
Didn't we have all this bollocks about Ronaldo being better than Messi about 5 years ago?
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