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Cristiano Ronaldo
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Think you're taking it a bit too much to the other extreme of the spectrum in response to Blasphemy's. He's clearly a world class passer of the ball, but there's several others (Xavi, Pirlo, Totti, maybe Arsenal's Fàbregas) who I'd rate above him and some very near him (Silva, Cazorla). You made an interesting comment in another post about his benefitting from Barça's system (which I don't think works anymore for him than it does for any other playmaker in any other system but anyway), but then by that same token it should be this system which is limiting his passing range, so how do you assess that fairly?
Don't agree with the bolded part, but his final ball is indeed one of the best of recent times.
He's averaged nearly 1 successful through ball per game in over 200 league and CL games since 2009/10...
For reference,
(in the same time frame)
Messi: 0.9
---
Totti: 1.1
Fàbregas: 0.9 (1.1 at Arsenal / 0.6 at Barça)
Xavi: 0.7
Pirlo: 0.6
Iniesta: 0.6
Cazorla: 0.5
Silva: 0.5
Di María: 0.5
Ibra: 0.5
Suárez: 0.4
Mata: 0.3
Isco: 0.3
Rooney: 0.3
Cristiano: 0.3
Touré: 0.3
Totti though
Very interesting diversion between Cesc's Arsenal and Barcelona statistics. I think it just shows how much more compact defences Barcelona are facing, even compared to another potent offensive and passing team such as Arsenal.
Don't agree with the bolded part, but his final ball is indeed one of the best of recent times.
He's averaged nearly 1 successful through ball per game in over 200 league and CL games since 2009/10...
For reference,
(in the same time frame)
Messi: 0.9
---
Totti: 1.1
Fàbregas: 0.9 (1.1 at Arsenal / 0.6 at Barça)
Xavi: 0.7
Pirlo: 0.6
Iniesta: 0.6
Cazorla: 0.5
Silva: 0.5
Di María: 0.5
Ibra: 0.5
Suárez: 0.4
Mata: 0.3
Isco: 0.3
Rooney: 0.3
Cristiano: 0.3
Touré: 0.3
Totti though
What actually makes these arguments redundant is very well pointed out by Rossa above. They are two very different players and play different roles in teams with polar opposite philosophies. Doesn't make sense to even compare on each attribute but what matters is end product, the sum of parts(attributes). There is no way anyone is better than other. Just like Ronaldo was still very very good and was doing all he can when Messi was winning Ballon D'Or, similar is happening when CR is having better years.
I don't think there is any difference between Arsenal Fabregas and Barcelona Fabregas. The difference is between the kind and amount of defending the two different teams have been facing over the years.
imo, the difference is between the position where you play Cesc and where Arsenal used to play Cesc.
To become a great passer "overall", there's many aspect of passing need to master. For example, Beckham is great at crossing and long range passing, Messi is great at one-twos and through balls, Kagawa is great at mastering the weight of passing. But when I say "overall", I mean it in a broader way.
Zidane for example, not only he did all of above, he can also control the pace of the game, brings other people to play with his passing, that's at least a level above those mentioned above. Now he is someone I'd regard as "great" passer overall.
Not sure I agree. Giggs was never thought to be a great passer when he was on the wing, even quite an erratic crosser. Put him in the middle of the park and suddenly his passing became brilliant. It's very different playing on the wing. Making penetrative passes, which is what Messi is about, is futile in the winger position. I've seen quite a few Ronaldo matches myself, and I think his passing is good, but it's not part of his game due to his position, but he shows from time to time when required that he is more rounded than what you give him credit from.
Agreed. Scholes is in that Zidane bracket btw.
Think you're getting your arguments mixed up a bit here... either way what I posted wasn't some sort of definitive proof of anything, it's merely some statistical evidence that I think does an adequate job of illustrating my opinion that Messi has one of the best final balls of recent times. Whether that is down to the system he plays in is another matter entirely which I haven't really adressed.
I'm also confused when you say "...what matters is end product", well those through ball stats ARE end product, each of them represents a goalscoring chance. Unless by end product you're only refering to goals and assists, which would be pretty selective on your part.
That may be part of it as well. But when you are facing parked passes all the time, it becomes a bit more difficult to pull off through balls.
The amount of chances wasted by Pedro/Alexis/Villa over the past few years from through balls from Cesc/Iniesta/Messi is quite insane.
You think Scholes was as good as Zidane?
Giggs was a rubbish passer of the ball for a years in the middle too, he developed his passing when he got older, it was definitely
Everyone needs movement from their teammates to be a good passer. It doesn't mean anything.
Ronaldo spends loads of time in the middle in that position Messi does in between attack and defence. Yes, he probably is in a position to make great passes less, but if Messi played on the wing he'd still do far, far more damage with his passing than Ronaldo does. Not to mention if he had pacey players like Bale, Benzema and Di Maria to play in instead of Iniesta, Fabregas and Neymar he'd create even more than he already does.
This thread has gone ridiculous since I was last here.
You've got one group of gnumpty's talking about Ronaldo being a better passer/on a par with Messi
Then you've got another bunch of gnumpty's saying Messi is the better passer/equal to Riquelme, Zidane, and Xavi
I've never seen anything like it.
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Nope, by end product I am referring the overall player. Through ball ability is an attribute, goal scoring ability is an attribute, heading is an attribute, dribbling is an attribute, passing is an attribute (can further be broken into short, long, crossing etc), tackling is an attribute and so on...All this combined makes a football player (At least the forwards, as these are abilities related to them). My point was, all this combined for each player, I don't see how one is 'way' better than than other(in discussion of CR and Messi). Maybe 9.4-9.6/10 both depending on season and form.
I didn't have problem with your stats, it is an interesting reading btw but my point was that these stats can't be seen in isolation to judge players. Maybe if you want to judge ONLY that ability. It's OK then. What is not correct is people using that one ability to make statements of said player being light years better than other. I know you weren't exactly doing it.
Then you've got another bunch of gnumpty's saying Messi is the best passer for decades
No one has said this.
Hence my comment on Barça's system limiting the range of his passing. Apart from the full(/wing)backs Barça rarely cross the ball at all. A forward like him isn't going to be playing loads of long balls anyway simply because of their position on the pitch, let alone at Barça where their lines are so compact (well, at their 2008-11 peak anyway).
Obviously the greatest passers overall are going to be MFs, because they are in a position/role to employ it. I agree with that. Would you agree then that Messi is the best passer among forwards?
Don't agree with the bolded part, but his final ball is indeed one of the best of recent times.
He's averaged nearly 1 successful through ball per game in over 200 league and CL games since 2009/10...
For reference,
(in the same time frame)
Messi: 0.9
---
Totti: 1.1
Fàbregas: 0.9 (1.1 at Arsenal / 0.6 at Barça)
Xavi: 0.7
Pirlo: 0.6
Iniesta: 0.6
Cazorla: 0.5
Silva: 0.5
Di María: 0.5
Ibra: 0.5
Suárez: 0.4
Mata: 0.3
Isco: 0.3
Rooney: 0.3
Cristiano: 0.3
Touré: 0.3
Totti though
But there is so so much which goes into this statistic. Style of play, position played, attacking philosophy, quality of opposition. Not to mention a successful through ball involves two parties. Barcelona have the likes of Iniesta, Pedro, Sanchez, and Neymar to aim at.
Messi is a great passer. He is intelligent. He is accurate. Great control. But as you say, it is partially limited to short space passes. Whereas someone like Riquelme or Xavi had the complete full range.
In that respect, the Fabregas Arsenal and Totti stats are extremely impressive.
Because he's in the final third a lot more. Messi is not one of the best passers I've ever seen. He's a very good passer for a forward, but not as good as Scholes or Xavi.
No one said this either to be fair. Most people rightly acknowledge Messi is clearly a better passer than Ronaldo but there's not "lightyears" between them.You've got one group of gnumpty's talking about Ronaldo being a better passer/on a par with Messi
If Messi were played in the Pirlo role I think he'd be absolutely brilliant there, he'd just be wasted because he couldn't use the full range of skills he can use further forward but Messi would be world class up front, as a number 10, on the wing or in midfield.
Definitely.
Snow said they were equally good at passing.
I don't think so. He'd be shown up because he's a forward not a central midfielder. His passing wouldnt be as good as Pirlo's, he wouldn't have the sense of a midfielder and he'd be a liability defensively.
Pirlo can't defend either. In a midfield two yeah Messi would struggle defensively but given the protection Pirlo is he'd be brilliant.
Yeah definitely. 100% agreed.
Another issue that frequently comes up and that is related to said generalizations: when I opine that Messi has one of the best final balls of recent times (deliberately being vague on the "one of" and "recent times" parts) that gets far too quickly translated by others as me saying he's one of best passers ever -- which kind of defeats the purpose of trying to be specific about it.
Skorenzy, I'm going to vote you for best Belgian caftard this year.
Well fair enough but we can't just assume he is as good as others just because he has never been assigned to this kind of role. Among the forwards, I agree Messi have to be one of the best around (most forwards usually won't bother to pass anyway), although I'd personally rate someone like Cantona higher.
Cantona is never in this lifetime a better passer of the ball than Messi.
Re: Blasphemy
1. Edited my post.
2. Messi could never play the Pirlo role. You clearly like Messi, which is fine - I do too. I accept in tight spaces further up the field he is one of the best passers in world football today. But that is such a small element of passing. And I've seen absolutely nothing to suggest Messi can do all the other types of passing. Someone like Riquelme or Zidane showcased the entire plethora of passing techniques. I completely and fundamentally disagree that Messi is as good a passer as those two. Messi is a very, very good passer. Special in his own right. But you're putting him in the bracket of some of the best passers to have ever played the game which is completely false. Messi is one of the best footballers to ever play the game but that doesn't mean he must be the best at all of these things. In the context of this thread, yes he is better than Ronaldo.
Re: Vato
The entire notion that there are a few arguing Ronaldo is on a par with Messi or better is incorrect. It's quite clear to see that is not the case.
If you love Ronaldo or you love Messi, doesn't mean you can't be objective in comments. Anyone saying Ronaldo is on a par with Messi or Messi is as good as the likes of Zidane or Riquelme fundamentally cannot be being objective. That, or their idea of football is misconstrued.
1. Edited my post.
2. Messi could never play the Pirlo role. You clearly like Messi, which is fine - I do too. I accept in tight spaces further up the field he is one of the best passers in world football today. But that is such a small element of passing. And I've seen absolutely nothing to suggest Messi can do all the other types of passing. Someone like Riquelme or Zidane showcased the entire plethora of passing techniques. I completely and fundamentally disagree that Messi is as good a passer as those two. Messi is a very, very good passer. Special in his own right. But you're putting him in the bracket of some of the best passers to have ever played the game which is completely false. Messi is one of the best footballers to ever play the game but that doesn't mean he must be the best at all of these things. In the context of this thread, yes he is better than Ronaldo.
Re: Vato
The entire notion that there are a few arguing Ronaldo is on a par with Messi or better is incorrect. It's quite clear to see that is not the case.
If you love Ronaldo or you love Messi, doesn't mean you can't be objective in comments. Anyone saying Ronaldo is on a par with Messi or Messi is as good as the likes of Zidane or Riquelme fundamentally cannot be being objective. That, or their idea of football is misconstrued.
I know and I agree. But when people make such an argument about goalscoring also being bound by some of those specifics you mention (and many others), it receives far less understanding.
Assists and throughballs, etc. are dependent on dozens of factors apart from the player himself, but I guess goals are goals nothing more, eh? Go figure.
On a sidenote, I don't think the examples you gave "to aim at" are very good ones. Iniesta almost never makes those off the ball runs, Pedro and Sánchez do it very infrequently as well in the last two seasons anyway (Pedro and Villa 2010-12 made loads of those runs, hence Messi's TB per game stat being so high in those seasons). Neymar this season has at times provided a decent "target" but still nothing close to what, say, a Walcott does at Arsenal, or, if you want to stay in the Messi context, what Tello does.
Pirlo was fine defensively. It's only now as he's gotten older that he struggles.
Messi is a quality passer of the ball, and brilliant for a forward at it, but I think the likes of Scholes, Xavi and co. were much better passers.
Now Cantona is a better passer than Messi? Someone stop this madness.
I don't agree, but it's a waste of time to keep arguing it. We won't know unless he moves back there later on in his career.
Cantona was the best player in the 5th best league in the world. A lot of people seem to forget this (or aren't old enough to realise it).
Skorenzy, I'm going to vote you for best Belgian caftard this year.
Yeah yeah, you're only saying that because you know you've got award for best surrogate-Belgian caftard sewn up already
I haven't seen Zidane enough to say that Scholes was better or worse than him, but Scholes was all about passing and controlling the tempo. Scholes is the best long range passer I've ever seen; Xavi doesn't come close.
Giggs didn't play regularly through the middle; when he was young he played 98% of his games as a winger, so your argument is a little moot. He had a little run as a striker, but that didn't work as he isn't what you would call prolific.
Of course everyone needs movement, but Barcelona at their best, and especially in that video you posted, moved much better than RM ever has. Movement has little to do with pace, but with timing instead. Fabregas isn't the fastest player, but he is intelligent and thus is able to run in behind the defense.
How could Messi do more damage with his passing from the wing than Ronaldo when Ronaldo's game on the wing isn't about passing? It's like saying that Scholes would facilitate play from the centre back position better than Vidic, which is true enough, but you would still take away his game altogether. There just aren't that many options to pass from in that winger position, especially when you consider Messi's passing. I've agreed that Messi is the better passer, but you think far too highly of him in that respect. Also, you seriously fail to recognize the difference in playing style and position they play in. Yes, Messi is the better and more rounded passer, but that isn't a concern for Ronaldo's style of play because it's not part of his game, but he has shown, and shows it quite regularly, that he can make very good passes when called for.
I swear everyone's high in here.There is something so incisive about Messi's passing in the final third. I think in terms of carving open defence type passes he is even better than even most midfielders in the world. Which current player plays better through balls than he does? I'd say not many - maybe Cesc, Modric, Kroos... can't say any player is miles ahead of Messi in this respect.
What? Passing is always massively important for any attacking player. If Ronaldo could create and pass like Messi he'd probably be a better player than him.
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