Classic case of moving the goalposts to suit your argument.
Cristiano Ronaldo
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Classic case of moving the goalposts to suit your argument.
You literally can't give an argument for Ronaldo's big game performances can you? You choose the best club side in history as an example, but that's not good enough for being called a "big game". There's no end to this.
Of course they are but it isn't the only big game he has played this season he has been missing in Europe imo. I didn't say he goes missing all the time I said more often than not his influence is not as much.
I was just getting across my opinion on what he offers in the big game outside his goal scoring and people keep telling me how many goals he has scored it is not something you can quantify if you haven't watched the match. The games against Dortmund and the games against us are the type of performances I am talking about though. Largely quiet but he has scored. Compare that to his performances a standard Ronaldo game and you would not conclude you are watching the second best player in the world after watching those games.
Unless people consider the games against us and Dortmund as proof that he performs in big games even last year it was the case. He is a great player but he doesn't offer much outside his goals in the big games for me. Which means when they are struggling like against us and against Dortmund the game tends to pass him by. Like someone mentioned he is not in the highest bracket of all time great player's because of this.
Unless people consider the games against us and Dortmund as proof that he performs in big games even last year it was the case. He is a great player but he doesn't offer much outside his goals in the big games for me. Which means when they are struggling like against us and against Dortmund the game tends to pass him by. Like someone mentioned he is not in the highest bracket of all time great player's because of this.
What is performing? What would Ronaldo have to do in a big game to perform?
Since it's rare for the two to be compared. What about Messi? How has he performed in the big games this year?
I really don't mean to use goals as a prime example, but in a list of Dortmund, Manchester City, Ajax, Manchester United and Galatasary, he's scored 12 goals: only 2 players have scored more than him in European cup history in a single campaign. He scored the winner against City, a hat trick against Ajax, the drawing and winning goals against United, 3 of the 5 goals vs Gala, and 2 of the 4 goals against Dortmund. He's not just carried the team, he's taken every single player for a piggyback across this European campaign. They have been abysmal as a team, and if it weren't for Ronaldo they wouldn't have got through the group stages, he was that important for them.
If you don't want to go on goals, and can't quite remember his performances in Europe, let me go through them again:
-From whoscored, they rated him Motm against:City at home, Ajax away, City Away, 2nd best player vs United at home, 2nd best player vs United away, Best player vs Galatasary away, Best player for Madrid vs Dortmund away.
That is well over half his games where he was recognised as either the best player on the pitch or for his team, and it may have been taken from just whoscored, but if you search up other places with ratings they would be the same. I haven't got time to do that but you can search for yourself. He has to work with what he's got, much like every other attacking player in Europe. Amazingly enough he's carried the worst Madrid team I've seen in years, and your claim he doesn't turn up in big games is quite baffling. His main weapon is scoring, and he does that in big games all the time, but it isn't good enough
What more influence do you need?I really don't mean to use goals as a prime example, but in a list of Dortmund, Manchester City, Ajax, Manchester United and Galatasary, he's scored 12 goals: only 2 players have scored more than him in European cup history in a single campaign. He scored the winner against City, a hat trick against Ajax, the drawing and winning goals against United, 3 of the 5 goals vs Gala, and 2 of the 4 goals against Dortmund. He's not just carried the team, he's taken every single player for a piggyback across this European campaign. They have been abysmal as a team, and if it weren't for Ronaldo they wouldn't have got through the group stages, he was that important for them.
If you don't want to go on goals, and can't quite remember his performances in Europe, let me go through them again:
-From whoscored, they rated him Motm against:City at home, Ajax away, City Away, 2nd best player vs United at home, 2nd best player vs United away, Best player vs Galatasary away, Best player for Madrid vs Dortmund away.
That is well over half his games where he was recognised as either the best player on the pitch or for his team, and it may have been taken from just whoscored, but if you search up other places with ratings they would be the same. I haven't got time to do that but you can search for yourself. He has to work with what he's got, much like every other attacking player in Europe. Amazingly enough he's carried the worst Madrid team I've seen in years, and your claim he doesn't turn up in big games is quite baffling. His main weapon is scoring, and he does that in big games all the time, but it isn't good enough
Great post, summed it up perfectly. (I knew there was a reason I recommended you
)Jaffy, you have no answer to this post, no seriously, you don't. Just leave it, you've been well beaten.
Can't believe people still use that excuse, he's an absolute beast of a footballer. I don't like the man, but as a footballer he's second to none. I'm not starting that argument again, just my opinion.
I really don't mean to use goals as a prime example, but in a list of Dortmund, Manchester City, Ajax, Manchester United and Galatasary, he's scored 12 goals: only 2 players have scored more than him in European cup history in a single campaign. He scored the winner against City, a hat trick against Ajax, the drawing and winning goals against United, 3 of the 5 goals vs Gala, and 2 of the 4 goals against Dortmund. He's not just carried the team, he's taken every single player for a piggyback across this European campaign. They have been abysmal as a team, and if it weren't for Ronaldo they wouldn't have got through the group stages, he was that important for them.
If you don't want to go on goals, and can't quite remember his performances in Europe, let me go through them again:
-From whoscored, they rated him Motm against:City at home, Ajax away, City Away, 2nd best player vs United at home, 2nd best player vs United away, Best player vs Galatasary away, Best player for Madrid vs Dortmund away.
That is well over half his games where he was recognised as either the best player on the pitch or for his team, and it may have been taken from just whoscored, but if you search up other places with ratings they would be the same. I haven't got time to do that but you can search for yourself. He has to work with what he's got, much like every other attacking player in Europe. Amazingly enough he's carried the worst Madrid team I've seen in years, and your claim he doesn't turn up in big games is quite baffling. His main weapon is scoring, and he does that in big games all the time, but it isn't good enough
Ronaldo is an outstanding goalscorer he relies on his teammates to create the majority of chances for him, when this happens less in bigger games his influence is diminished. What I see from him despite this isn't good enough imo. He does not get on the ball as much and he is less than of a threat. He and his team are mutually dependent on one another. But when I look outside goals he rarely can be seen forcing the issue in the bigger games when Real are struggling. Unlike in in lal liga where he inspires Real to wins quite often.
His goals are one, two touch finishes which his teammates create for him. Outside those to goals he was largely quiet against us don't remember much of him at all. He barely got on the ball, took player's on, stretched play, tested the keeper etc. those are the things you see in a typical Ronaldo performance but they are largely missing in the bigger games against the best teams. I am not going to comment on those whoscored stats's because I watched some of those game matches and largely he is a spectator the games against us and Dortmund (even in the group stages) where not typical all action Ronaldo games City where poor in Europe and the games against Galatassary sum up what I mean they are not as good as us or Dortmund so he was able to have a field day he was a thorn in their side, he was on the ball beating player's getting fouled, testing the keeper but we saw none of this in 4 games against us and Dortmund they where lucky to get through against us but not so against Dortmund. Surely his teammates don't stop him from getting the ball, taking player's on, testing the keeper these things were missing from Ronaldo against the best teams in Europe.
Can somebody break down how well he played against us and against Dortmund in Europe in comparison to games against Galatassary, Ajax and Man City in Europe?
His overall performances against the latter teams where much better outside goals and that for me is the trend with him. He will always score but unless he is an out and out striker he should be offering more in these games.
His overall performances against the latter teams where much better outside goals and that for me is the trend with him. He will always score but unless he is an out and out striker he should be offering more in these games.
I do see what you mean better now but I do think the flaws you point out are pretty strict, only a handful of players have combined the ability he shows with a greater aptitude to take the game by the scruff of the neck, we're talking Pele, Maradona, Platini etc. There's no real great shame being behind those players in that aspect, particularly when all his other attributes are ruthlessly efficient.
How well did Messi do vs Bayern? How well did RVP do vs Madrid?
Atleast Ronaldo scored! Of course players won't be able to play as well vs better opposition. For me, I find more frustration overall with a player who can play with the best of the best and be expressive but fails to show that as consistently as players like Ronaldo and Messi against all opposition.
Fair enough I do agree we are talking about the greatest of all time. But isn't that the conversation Ronaldo is put into? Despite what I said he is still at worst the second best player in the world and has been so for the last 5 years. For someone with the standards he sets I would like to see more from him in the bigger games.
No I'm not sure he is put into that bracket, for the very reasons you described really. He doesn't or hasn't yet shown the ability to completely dominate huge games on a regular basis, particularly if you're discounting his goals, but that ability is very rare. I think you have exaggerated expectations of him, the type of player you want him to be may not come around for many years.
Why do you bring up Messi when we are discussing Ronaldo I purposely haven't compared them for me that is another conversation.
Ronaldo did score but that doesn't take away from the fact that he was largely anonymous in TWO games against Dortmund and 3 out of the 4 times he played them this season. The same thing against us.
Who are your examples of players who show up in big games but don't bring it consistently? The very best players make their presence known and leave their imprint in the biggest games. Ronaldo doesn't do that enough for me. Of course he has some standout big games he is a gifted footballer but when you take away his goals how many times can you say he had a great game the two are not always connected you can score and have a bad game and for me that seems to be the case more often than not with Ronaldo.
Great post, summed it up perfectly. (I knew there was a reason I recommended you
Jaffy, you have no answer to this post, no seriously, you don't. Just leave it, you've been well beaten.
If only
It's a natural comparison, it shows that if you take even the very best players game against its fiercest opponents that it may very well not portray them in a good light.
Zidane would be a player that shows up in big games but wasn't as fantastic as Ronaldo in games vs lesser opponents, to the teams detriment. It's just my way of saying I would probably opt for Ronaldos contribution overall rather than say Zidanes, if I was a Madrid fan on the hunt for trophies.
Anyway, this is going round in circles now, have a good one.
If he scores a goal, he is already influencing and changing the game A LOT. A goal changes everything in football. From the way your team plays to the way the other team reacts. And Ronaldo scores goals in abundance. Its his tap-in in the first leg against Dortmund that Real harboured any idea of a comeback. Sometimes I don't really get the "scores a goal but does nothing all game".
Yeah, it's stupid. His tap-in was what knocked us out in the CL, but BESIDES that he didn't do feck-all
I wish someone on our team could also score tap-ins that would win us games but does feck-all otherwise. That argument is stupid on many levels especially for Ronaldo who does more than just score tap-ins. It's usually the views of Messi fanboys than a legitimate criticism. Even Messi scores shits loads of tap-ins. The key is that these two players are capable of winning games despite having shit games overall - that's the mark of great players if anything.
That's actually one of those examples where the importance of his goal is massively overrated. He scored the 1-1, not the 4-1 that miraculously brought them back into the game. They didn't need a comeback when he scored, they had an advantage in the tie at that point. Madrid were destroyed after he scored, his goal didn't change the flow of the game at all. Maybe he should have helped defending, creating chances, maybe they wouldn't have lost 4-1 then. They lost the tie in that first leg and he was shit. Waiting upfront to score one tap-in wasn't enough to help his team win the tie. He should have done more. Maybe it's all down to Mourinho's tactics, part of it surely is. Doesn't change the fact that his impact as a player wasn't as great as it should be this season despite his goals.
Of course he's still a top top player, one of the best in the world without doubt. And I would never call him a failure in big games, that's bullshit, easily proven by his goals against Barca and in the CL. But the question if his team overall suffers from playing solely for him is warranted in my opinion (same with Messi this season by the way). He shouldn't be anywhere near the top 3 at the ballon d'or after this season. If a tap-in in a 4-1 loss to Dortmund is enough for some of you to think that's a ridiculous perception of the game, well we have to agree to disagree then.
Disagree with JaffyJoe and Balu.
We had a similar discussion in the Rooney thread a while ago when he was on that streak of 11 goals in 9 games in all competitions (or a similar ratio). There were a couple of games where he hadn't played fantastically for the entire 90mins (which was the case for most of the team tbh) but he was popping up and scoring important goals for us, more important because RvP has gone completely off the boil at this point. Perfect example being Norwich at home. Rooney wasn't having a great game by any stretch for 60 mins then in the last 30 mins he kills the game with two assists for Kagawa and scoring a screamer. The best players have that ability and its a strength not a weakness.
Ronaldo did it against us at OT. He had a poor game by his standards, at times attempting silly no look passes and losing the ball and his touch was off, but when it mattered he scored the goal that knocked us out and sent Madrid through to the quarters. Big players affect games even when they or the team are not playing particularly well.
To suggest he doesn't get involved in the game on the whole is ridiculous too because we watched him develop for six years here and even at Madrid he's always involved in the build up, creating chances for his team mates and his one touch play particularly when Madrid is on the counter attack is excellent. He doesn't just lurk on the edge of the box waiting for his team mates to set him up, you can't have watched him much if you think that's what his game is about. He might not get involved in the defensive side, winning the ball back as much as some other attacking players might have to, but why wouldn't his teams prefer to have someone so lethal in areas of the pitch where he can hurt teams the most?
We had a similar discussion in the Rooney thread a while ago when he was on that streak of 11 goals in 9 games in all competitions (or a similar ratio). There were a couple of games where he hadn't played fantastically for the entire 90mins (which was the case for most of the team tbh) but he was popping up and scoring important goals for us, more important because RvP has gone completely off the boil at this point. Perfect example being Norwich at home. Rooney wasn't having a great game by any stretch for 60 mins then in the last 30 mins he kills the game with two assists for Kagawa and scoring a screamer. The best players have that ability and its a strength not a weakness.
Ronaldo did it against us at OT. He had a poor game by his standards, at times attempting silly no look passes and losing the ball and his touch was off, but when it mattered he scored the goal that knocked us out and sent Madrid through to the quarters. Big players affect games even when they or the team are not playing particularly well.
To suggest he doesn't get involved in the game on the whole is ridiculous too because we watched him develop for six years here and even at Madrid he's always involved in the build up, creating chances for his team mates and his one touch play particularly when Madrid is on the counter attack is excellent. He doesn't just lurk on the edge of the box waiting for his team mates to set him up, you can't have watched him much if you think that's what his game is about. He might not get involved in the defensive side, winning the ball back as much as some other attacking players might have to, but why wouldn't his teams prefer to have someone so lethal in areas of the pitch where he can hurt teams the most?
Same old arguments about Cristiano I see. Always polemic, as the man himself would say
Facts:
- He's the 2nd best footballer in the world currently & has been over the past 4-5 years. Probably by a comfortable margin (especially if you take consistency into account)
- If it wasn't for a certain Argentine midget playing in the same era as Ronaldo, he'd probably have won the last 4-5 TBPITW awards
- He's one of the most complete attackers (if not the most complete) we're ever going to see
- He does perform in big games, there's not really an argument there, is there? Unless of course people expect him to "win the games single-handedly" with 40 yard solo dribbles or shots whenever Madrid is losing?
- He's playing style is almost the polar opposite to Messi. He doesn't get involved in the "playmaking" (build up) aspect much, so it is only expected that he could be kept quiet for 89 mins and boom...he pops up with a goal (& some of them, screamers)...that's why HE IS rated that highly isn't it?
So why can't we just accept the "fachts" and move on?
Facts:
- He's the 2nd best footballer in the world currently & has been over the past 4-5 years. Probably by a comfortable margin (especially if you take consistency into account)
- If it wasn't for a certain Argentine midget playing in the same era as Ronaldo, he'd probably have won the last 4-5 TBPITW awards
- He's one of the most complete attackers (if not the most complete) we're ever going to see
- He does perform in big games, there's not really an argument there, is there? Unless of course people expect him to "win the games single-handedly" with 40 yard solo dribbles or shots whenever Madrid is losing?
- He's playing style is almost the polar opposite to Messi. He doesn't get involved in the "playmaking" (build up) aspect much, so it is only expected that he could be kept quiet for 89 mins and boom...he pops up with a goal (& some of them, screamers)...that's why HE IS rated that highly isn't it?
So why can't we just accept the "fachts" and move on?
No one is saying he shouldn't pop up in those areas at all. He needs to find a balance that doesn't hurt the team more than his goals help. He lost that balance imo.
Of course it's more than enough against most opponents, that's why the Rooney example isn't really helping your point. He had those weak games against Bayern in the CL, against Dortmund in 3 of the 4 games and against United twice. Sure sometimes he scores the tap-in, but if he needs the opponent to see a red card or the opponent's defender to make a huge feck up like Hummels, it's not enough.
Same old arguments about Cristiano I see. Always polemic, as the man himself would say
Facts:
- He's the 2nd best footballer in the world currently & has been over the past 4-5 years. Probably by a comfortable margin (especially if you take consistency into account)
- If it wasn't for a certain Argentine midget playing in the same era as Ronaldo, he'd probably have won the last 4-5 TBPITW awards
- He's one of the most complete attackers (if not the most complete) we're ever going to see
- He does perform in big games, there's not really an argument there, is there? Unless of course people expect him to "win the games single-handedly" with 40 yard solo dribbles or shots whenever Madrid is losing?
- He's playing style is almost the polar opposite to Messi. He doesn't get involved in the "playmaking" (build up) aspect much, so it is only expected that he could be kept quiet for 89 mins and boom...he pops up with a goal (& some of them, screamers)...that's why HE IS rated that highly isn't it?
So why can't we just accept the "fachts" and move on?
I'm not sure, is that sarcasm?
How can one be one of the most complete attacking player of all time when he doesn't get involved in the "playmaking"? That's well, I really don't know where to begin. If those are facts, then, well okay, I'm convinced now.
I'm not sure, is that sarcasm?
How can one be one of the most complete attacking player of all time when he doesn't get involved in the "playmaking"? That's well, I really don't know where to begin. If those are facts, then, well okay, I'm convinced now.
No, you have a set idea of what a great player should do, how he should dribble and provide and score goals. You'd probably think Gerd Muller was worth two cents. You don't seem to think that Ronaldo was a very effective weapon and consistently bailed out Madrid from difficult situations.
So in your Ballon D'or, would you include Messi? If Ronaldo can't be anywhere near the top 3, who'll be your top 3.
I'm not sure, is that sarcasm?
How can one be one of the most complete attacking player of all time when he doesn't get involved in the "playmaking"? That's well, I really don't know where to begin. If those are facts, then, well okay, I'm convinced now.
I think its because he generally does not need too, he conserves his energy to attack defenders and score goals.
Why run around the pitch busting your balls to try and make openings for over players, when they can do that for you?.
His goal record cannot be disagreed with.
@Balu (sorry bud, quote function doesn't work on my work PC)
- did I say he's not capable of getting involved in the buildup or that assuming his style, he just doesn't? There's a big difference between the 2. He can get involved in the buildup and create a shit load of scoring chances for his team mates - we all know that so im not really sure how you can dispute that?
And yes, I stand by what I said - he's one of the most complete attackers we're likely to see. And for the record, im not even a Ronaldo "fan". I've not liked him much since he left us, but im not blind to deny his standing in the game.
- did I say he's not capable of getting involved in the buildup or that assuming his style, he just doesn't? There's a big difference between the 2. He can get involved in the buildup and create a shit load of scoring chances for his team mates - we all know that so im not really sure how you can dispute that?
And yes, I stand by what I said - he's one of the most complete attackers we're likely to see. And for the record, im not even a Ronaldo "fan". I've not liked him much since he left us, but im not blind to deny his standing in the game.
What's wrong with you? Gerd Müller was immense. He was incredibly important and without his goals Bayern wouldn't be the club they are now. He wasn't the best player for Bayern or Germany back then though and it's not even close in comparison to Beckenbauer.
Yes, I would include Messi in the Ballon D'or. I think he scored more important goals than Ronaldo and helped Barca win the league with incredible individual performances in the first half of the season, Ronaldo hasn't done anything comparable this season.
It's crazy how people feel offended when someone is saying he's not the second best player in the world this season. I'm not saying he's shit, I'm not saying he's nowhere near the best players in the world. I think he's not one of the best three players this season because others had a way bigger influence in the success of their teams while playing on an incredible individual level as well.
That's what I'm saying and that's one of the reasons Madrid struggled against the best teams in europe with well executed defensive tactics against Real. I'm not denying his abilities, I'm saying what he showed this season wasn't enough and that's one of the reasons why Real lost many important games this season despite him scoring.@Balu (sorry bud, quote function doesn't work on my work PC)
- did I say he's not capable of getting involved in the buildup or that assuming his style, he just doesn't? There's a big difference between the 2. He can get involved in the buildup and create a shit load of scoring chances for his team mates - we all know that so im not really sure how you can dispute that?
And yes, I stand by what I said - he's one of the most complete attackers we're likely to see. And for the record, im not even a Ronaldo "fan". I've not liked him much since he left us, but im not blind to deny his standing in the game.
Because it would make it harder to defend against Madrid and help win CL knock out ties against top teams in europe without a ridiculous red card for the opponent?
@Balu
I do get what you're saying, especially if you take "this season" in isolation, I'd be inclined to agree with you - that Ronaldo shouldn't be top 2/3. My summary was more in "general", i.e. there's no doubt to me that Ronaldo IS the 2nd best footballer on the planet. He has been for the past 4-5 years +.
Another point worth noting though - Madrid didn't lose that many important matches this season for a "lack of scoring", if you know what i mean. As a team, they were generally just 2nd best, especially in defence, and there's not much Ronaldo could have done there.
Personally the troubles at Madrid (as a whole) this season has had a big bearing on their season and one could even assume to an extent, on the performance/form of some of their players.
I didn't know you were talking about this season only. Thought you had a "general" Ronaldo isn't a top 3 palyer debate.
I do get what you're saying, especially if you take "this season" in isolation, I'd be inclined to agree with you - that Ronaldo shouldn't be top 2/3. My summary was more in "general", i.e. there's no doubt to me that Ronaldo IS the 2nd best footballer on the planet. He has been for the past 4-5 years +.
Another point worth noting though - Madrid didn't lose that many important matches this season for a "lack of scoring", if you know what i mean. As a team, they were generally just 2nd best, especially in defence, and there's not much Ronaldo could have done there.
Personally the troubles at Madrid (as a whole) this season has had a big bearing on their season and one could even assume to an extent, on the performance/form of some of their players.
I didn't know you were talking about this season only. Thought you had a "general" Ronaldo isn't a top 3 palyer debate.
That's where I clearly disagree and think that's one of the reason I rate Ribery's individual performances this season higher than Ronaldo's. Ribery helped dominate the opponents. He really forced them back in their own half, closed down when they tried to attack through his side and never lost his influence on the game. He moved around on the pitch to help keep possession when necessary, but still created chances upfront, he caused havoc and forced the opponents to react to Bayern, not the other way round. All that helps avoiding goals, even though it's got nothing to do with actual defending and Ronaldo didn't do that in a similar way since Mourinho took over at Real. Like I wrote before, Mourinho's tactics are probably the main reason for the way Ronaldo played. I think it would be different with another manager in charge. But we should judge players on what they showed and not on what they could have showed.
Oh, and if you ask me who's been the second best player in the world over the last 6 years, of course it's Ronaldo.
They scored 3 goals.
They let in 4.
Madrid struggled against the best teams in europe due to poorly executed defensive tactics.
Balu I think you just don't get what type of player Cristiano Ronaldo is so have a read of this from Gary Neville who was his team mate during his time here:
I'll agree with Balu here. Ronaldo won shit all this season and he shouldn't be included in the top 3 players for Ballo D'or. Same as Messi shouldn't have win it in 2009-2010 (Sneijder should have won it, with Milito and Iniesta in top 3). Scoring a lot of goals mean feck all, if in the end you don't get any silverware (or in case of Messi, not that much compared to others). Football is a squad game, and although the Ballon D'or is based on individual performance, still trophies should play a part on it. Ronaldo is great, and the second best player in the last 5 years but he shouldn't be in the top 3 this season.
Why exactly? Just one example: A striker scores three goals in the Champions League final but the keeper of his team makes three huge mistake, thus the striker ends up without any silverware despite having scored three stellar goals.
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