Cristiano Ronaldo

[Nighteyes]

@Fergus'son
This is a regular occurrence with Ronaldo he is a quality player that shouldn't always be the case. He doesn't influence the biggest games as much as he should. That isn't enough of an excuse. Teams set up for Ronaldinho that didn't stop him. Messi at a time also. When your good enough it doesn't matter. For Ronaldo he struggles consistently.

I agree.

Ronaldo is still a fantastic player but in the real big games you expect him to stand up and take the game by the scruff of the neck. That's what separates him from the likes of Messi and Ronaldinho.

I don't think it's all Ronaldo's fault though. For instance playing him the way we did in Rome did not help either him nor the rest of the team to shine

 

[KiD MoYeS]

What? He still scores in the big games. Have most of you watched Ronaldo? He's not a creative player, he's not the type who is going to collect the ball deep in his half and begin to dictate the tempo of the game. Or take the game by the scruff of the neck.

Instead, he's going to do what he's paid to do and what he's always done. Be the focal point of attack. Which he does successfully, time after time.

 

[mufcwarm92]

Yep, some absolute bollocks being chatted here. He's been starring in the biggest games for about half a decade now.

 

[Fergus' son]

@Fergus'son
This is a regular occurrence with Ronaldo he is a quality player that shouldn't always be the case. He doesn't influence the biggest games as much as he should. That isn't enough of an excuse. Teams set up for Ronaldinho that didn't stop him. Messi at a time also. When your good enough it doesn't matter. For Ronaldo he struggles consistently.

Come on, you've compared him to two of the biggest big game performers of all time, hardly fair IMO, he'll never be as influential as them in a big game because he doesn't have as much individual talent as them. If that's what you were arguing then I can't disagree. It was the implication that he fails to show up for big games, I dont think that's true, I think he doesn't play as well because the opponents are tougher. Anyway, he doesn't struggle consistently in big games, that's a myth.

 

[Ringo 07]

I'd put any amount of cash down that he won't be here next season...he'll either stay at real or go to psg

 

[KiD MoYeS]

I'd put any amount of cash down that he won't be here next season...he'll either stay at real or go to psg

He'll remain at Madrid, I'd imagine. They'd be mad to sell him.

When his contract runs down, however...

 

[Ludens the Red]

What the feck, is this 2007? I've stumbled into a 'Ronaldo doesnt do it in the big games' debate.

 

[Red Shorts]

What the feck, is this 2007? I've stumbled into a 'Ronaldo doesnt do it in the big games' debate.

Really hope he goes to Chelsea now, because he'd never score against us or the other big teams . Utter rubbish for the past 2 pages I must admit.

 

[KiD MoYeS]

I always laugh when Ronaldo plays poorly, you've all the Messi fans tearing him a new one.

Yet, when Messi plays poorly nobody bats an eyelid.

 

[Deleted 20801]

Ronaldo not a big game player?

Okay then.

 

[KiD MoYeS]

Hectic, I've yet to not laugh at your avatar when you pop up in a thread.

I'd love to see Kagawa's face replace Moyes' at some stage though, for added hilarity.

 

[Balu]

Ronaldo was never really a creative player, he's a selfish predator. So I don't know why we'd judge him on creating chances for other players, especially when you consider the teams he has played for have all set up to create him chances and not vice versa.

Because people are saying he's not as dependent on his team mates as the team is dependent on him, which can't be true when his role is solely to score.

 

[Nighteyes]

I don't know about Joe but I am not saying he does not contribute in the big games as that would be complete rubbish and I believe he has scored in all the major finals to go along with recent scoring run he had in the the El Classicos. So purely from a statistical point of view he does very well. But his performances in those big games are a level below of what you'd expect from some like Ronaldo. It's what separates him from the Messi/Ronaldinho category

 

[KiD MoYeS]

It's difficult to pick who is more dependent of who with Madrid and Ronaldo.

Any team with a player of Ronaldo's quality would be dependent, on some level, of him. Yet, Madrid would feel they've enough quality in their team to cause most teams problems, with or without Ronaldo.

Ronaldo can, and has, fashioned chances for himself out of nothing. He's as dependent as the players around him as any other player would be.

 

[jojojo]

Football - a game of 11 a side in which some players are easier to replace than others.

 

[KiD MoYeS]

And Ronaldo, like Messi, is irreplaceable.

 

[Ludens the Red]

Really hope he goes to Chelsea now, because he'd never score against us or the other big teams . Utter rubbish for the past 2 pages I must admit.

"Controlling" big games > Scoring winning goals in big games.

Obviously.

 

[JaffyJoe]

Some are saying he relies on the team others are saying that they need him. Imo opinion it is somewhere in between. Also nowhere have I said he doesn't influence big games because like many have stated he scores goals consistently.

What I am saying is his overall performance/influence diminishes in these games in comparison to his other games am I wrong because it sounds like if Real do well it's because of him and when they do badly it is not his fault he has to own each one or own neither imo.

 

[KiD MoYeS]

Some are saying he relies on the team others are saying that they need him. Imo opinion it is somewhere in between. Also nowhere have I said he doesn't influence big games because like many have stated he scores goals consistently.

What I am saying is his overall performance/influence diminishes in these games in comparison to his other games am I wrong because it sounds like if Real do well it's because of him and when they do badly it is not his fault he has to own each one or own neither imo.

I don't understand what you mean by stating his influence over bigger games diminishing when he scores consistently in them, like you've said.

 

[thepolice123]

Scores against us (x2), Dortmund (x2), Barcelona (x3) and a last min winner against Man City.

Not a big game player.

 

[Fergus' son]

Scores against us (x2), Dortmund (x2), Barcelona (x3) and a last min winner against Man City.

Not a big game player.

They want him to stop scoring and start setting up people who aren't as likely as him to finish the chances.

 

[Red Shorts]

It's difficult to pick who is more dependent of who with Madrid and Ronaldo.

Any team with a player of Ronaldo's quality would be dependent, on some level, of him. Yet, Madrid would feel they've enough quality in their team to cause most teams problems, with or without Ronaldo.

Ronaldo can, and has, fashioned chances for himself out of nothing. He's as dependent as the players around him as any other player would be.

I will always remember this moment as an example of how he can create something out of nothing:

 

[amolbhatia50k]

Scores against us (x2), Dortmund (x2), Barcelona (x3) and a last min winner against Man City.

Not a big game player.

Hasn't he got a brilliant record against barca over the last few years, causing trouble against them every time he plays them?

 

[KiD MoYeS]

That goal still makes the hair on the back of my neck stand up.

 

[Red Shorts]

Hasn't he got a brilliant record against barca over the last few years, causing trouble against them every time he plays them?

This year: PL 6, Scored 6
Last year: PL 6, Scored 4
Year before: PL 5, Scored 2
First year : PL 2, Scored 0

He's improved each year playing against them, and this year I think he has been the standout player in each El Classico. Goals aren't everything like some say on this thread, but he still causes them more trouble than his entire team put together.

 

[JaffyJoe]

You can score and be quiet and this tends to be the case with Ronaldo in games against the best teams. Everyone keeps mentioning Barca they are not as good/dominant as they where and are a poor team defensively. He is a great player but I don't feel he plays as well against the best teams. It is not about creating chances necessarily.
Basically if his team plays poorly Ronaldo individually is going to do little to improve proceedings. Those who watch him will know he carries Real at times and makes things happen with the game is not going their way. He doesn't do so in the biggest games consistently.

 

[amolbhatia50k]

You can score and be quiet and this tends to be the case with Ronaldo in games against the best teams. Everyone keeps mentioning Barca they are not as good/dominant as they where and are a poor team defensively. He is a great player but I don't feel he plays as well against the best teams. It is not about creating chances necessarily.
Basically if his team plays poorly Ronaldo individually is going to do little to improve proceedings. Those who watch him will know he carries Real at times and makes things happen with the game is not going their way. He doesn't do so in the biggest games consistently.

What nonsense. Ronaldo needs his team to do well and can't do great things individually? Well, madrid must be one of the greatest teams ever given he's been so utterly brilliant for them in his time there.

And barca aren't so good? So his performances against a team claimed to be one of the greatest ever doesn't count suddenly? We're basing this off his peformamces against bayern? Because they've had one year of dominance? It's seems convenient to ignore his excellent displays around footballs dominant force of recent times just to suit an existing argument.

Btw, it's a team game. That's why even the other best players rely on their teams and their performances vary directly. Granted hes not as good a big player as the likes of zidane was or iniesta is, but he's still fecking great. And a better player in general than the latter for sure.

 

[KingEric7]

I don't see anything wrong with questioning Ronaldo's ability to really influence a game aside from his goalscoring. It's what will stop him from being in that very top category of all-time greats, in my opinion. There is an obsession I think for people to use goalscoring tallies to conclude things about players over and above the fact that they are outstanding scorers; in reality, there are things that other players bring to the table that more than make up for any lesser level of productivity.

I'd much rather have Ronaldinho in my team at the peak of his powers for example than someone who's overall influence on a match aside from goalscoring is marginal by comparison. Ronaldo has the potential to be an all-time great, but I don't see him reaching that level unless he brings the rest of his game somewhere back to where it was when he first emerged as a world class player. For now, I'd say Messi, Ronaldinho and Ronaldo Luis at their best are/were all better than Ronaldo is now. If he gets some of his 06/07 game back, he joins them without any doubt whatsoever. That would be one unbelievable footballer.

 

[Deleted 20801]

Hectic, I've yet to not laugh at your avatar when you pop up in a thread.

I'd love to see Kagawa's face replace Moyes' at some stage though, for added hilarity.

I'm going to try it out, Moyes is my best cheshop yet, it's going to be hard to beat him.

 

[Deleted 20801]

You can score and be quiet and this tends to be the case with Ronaldo in games against the best teams. Everyone keeps mentioning Barca they are not as good/dominant as they where and are a poor team defensively.

This point in particular - Ronaldo has regularly performed against Barcelona though, even when they were considered at their very best. His statistics against Barcelona are excellent, having faced them 19 times and put 12 past them. I understand stats aren't everything, but I don't think he's really been quiet vs Barcelona aside from his first season and a couple other games.

 

[bosnian_red]

You can score and be quiet and this tends to be the case with Ronaldo in games against the best teams. Everyone keeps mentioning Barca they are not as good/dominant as they where and are a poor team defensively. He is a great player but I don't feel he plays as well against the best teams. It is not about creating chances necessarily.
Basically if his team plays poorly Ronaldo individually is going to do little to improve proceedings. Those who watch him will know he carries Real at times and makes things happen with the game is not going their way. He doesn't do so in the biggest games consistently.

What player plays consistently well in big games when his team isn't doing too well? For a player to stick out, the actual team needs to be doing well. It is a team sport after all. There have been cases of individual performances rejuvenating a team, but nobody does it consistently.

 

[jojojo]

Some are saying he relies on the team others are saying that they need him. Imo opinion it is somewhere in between. Also nowhere have I said he doesn't influence big games because like many have stated he scores goals consistently.

What I am saying is his overall performance/influence diminishes in these games in comparison to his other games am I wrong because it sounds like if Real do well it's because of him and when they do badly it is not his fault he has to own each one or own neither imo.

I'd certainly agree with that first bit in that if they do well then even if it's not "because" of him, then certainly it will be including him and often led by him.

Most games this season (and previous ones) he's been one of Real Madrid's best players - big game or not, win/lose/draw. When they play badly he's seldom the guilty party, or at least not the guiltiest.

he has to own each one or own neither imo.

Whereas imo, your pairing of statements demonstrates nothing of the sort.

 

[amolbhatia50k]

I don't see anything wrong with questioning Ronaldo's ability to really influence a game aside from his goalscoring. It's what will stop him from being in that very top category of all-time greats, in my opinion. There is an obsession I think for people to use goalscoring tallies to conclude things about players over and above the fact that they are outstanding scorers; in reality, there are things that other players bring to the table that more than make up for any lesser level of productivity.

I'd much rather have Ronaldinho in my team at the peak of his powers for example than someone who's overall influence on a match aside from goalscoring is marginal by comparison. Ronaldo has the potential to be an all-time great, but I don't see him reaching that level unless he brings the rest of his game somewhere back to where it was when he first emerged as a world class player. For now, I'd say Messi, Ronaldinho and Ronaldo Luis at their best are/were all better than Ronaldo is now. If he gets some of his 06/07 game back, he joins them without any doubt whatsoever. That would be one unbelievable footballer.

They're all better players (didnt see the fat one) at their best than Ronaldo is at his best IMO so it doesn't prove all that much. Ronaldhinio at his peak was absolutely ridiculous and a better player Ronaldo ever has been so its hardly surprising that he'd be better on big games.

 

[adexkola]

I don't see anything wrong with questioning Ronaldo's ability to really influence a game aside from his goalscoring. It's what will stop him from being in that very top category of all-time greats, in my opinion. There is an obsession I think for people to use goalscoring tallies to conclude things about players over and above the fact that they are outstanding scorers; in reality, there are things that other players bring to the table that more than make up for any lesser level of productivity.

I'd much rather have Ronaldinho in my team at the peak of his powers for example than someone who's overall influence on a match aside from goalscoring is marginal by comparison. Ronaldo has the potential to be an all-time great, but I don't see him reaching that level unless he brings the rest of his game somewhere back to where it was when he first emerged as a world class player. For now, I'd say Messi, Ronaldinho and Ronaldo Luis at their best are/were all better than Ronaldo is now.

The problem with those intangible qualities you mention is that there's no objective manner for using these to determine how good or valuable a player is.

Ronaldo is an excellent player to have in a counter attacking system. Watch him for Madrid, and he's one to start a counter by a flick or a pass to the opposite flank, and his movement off the ball fits the final pass every time. Counters are incredibly difficult to pull off, and it's testimony to his quality (apart from goalscoring) that he features in a team that is one of the best around on the counter. He was more electrifying in 2007, but he's by far the better player now.

What smarter teams do (us till Nanigate, Dortmund, Bayern last season) to Real is nullify the space needed for the counter, and crowd the middle, choking the supply to Ronaldo and Di Maria. In such a situation, the onus is on the manager to adjust by moving personnel around, tweaking the formation, or introducing more threats into the team that take the focus off Ronaldo. I can't say Mourinho has succeeded at doing this, as Ronaldo goes the team goes, and when he's off Real usually lose. For all the money that has been spent on the team, Mourinho should have done a better job making the team multi faceted.

 

[adexkola]

What player plays consistently well in big games when his team isn't doing too well? For a player to stick out, the actual team needs to be doing well. It is a team sport after all. There have been cases of individual performances rejuvenating a team, but nobody does it consistently.

Exactly. There seems to be some revisionism regarding how the aforementioned players performed while their team was sinking around them. Ronaldinho only did it for 2 seasons, and after this he became shit. Messi against Inter, Chelsea and Bayern in the Champions League was just sad to see.

 

[Nighteyes]

If he gets some of his 06/07 game back, he joins them without any doubt whatsoever. That would be one unbelievable footballer.

This.

He needs to combine with goalscoring with the excitement and flair he showcased in that season even if it means scoring a few tap ins less. He's become a fecking machine at Real Madrid, a very efficient one no doubt but without what made him so brilliant to watch in the 06/07 season.

 

[adexkola]

This.

He needs to combine with goalscoring with the excitement and flair he showcased in that season even if it means scoring a few tap ins less. He's become a fecking machine at Real Madrid, a very efficient one no doubt but without what made him so brilliant to watch in the 06/07 season.

He did already. In 09/10 under Pelligrini. They were knocked out by Lyon and wiped clean by Barcelona in the league, but still.

 

[Nighteyes]

He did already. In 09/10 under Pelligrini. They were knocked out by Lyon and wiped clean by Barcelona in the league, but still.

Not really

 

[adexkola]

Not really

Um, ok.

 

[KingEric7]

The problem with those intangible qualities you mention is that there's no objective manner for using these to determine how good or valuable a player is.

Ronaldo is an excellent player to have in a counter attacking system. Watch him for Madrid, and he's one to start a counter by a flick or a pass to the opposite flank, and his movement off the ball fits the final pass every time. Counters are incredibly difficult to pull off, and it's testimony to his quality (apart from goalscoring) that he features in a team that is one of the best around on the counter. He was more electrifying in 2007, but he's by far the better player now.

What smarter teams do (us till Nanigate, Dortmund, Bayern last season) to Real is nullify the space needed for the counter, and crowd the middle, choking the supply to Ronaldo and Di Maria. In such a situation, the onus is on the manager to adjust by moving personnel around, tweaking the formation, or introducing more threats into the team that take the focus off Ronaldo. I can't say Mourinho has succeeded at doing this, as Ronaldo goes the team goes, and when he's off Real usually lose. For all the money that has been spent on the team, Mourinho should have done a better job making the team multi faceted.

This is true but I think it's something that becomes intuitively clear whilst watching. It cannot be measured but it's very easy to observe. It is of course subject to opinion and it may well transpire that Ronaldo becomes so efficient that any other criticism will pale in the face of his creativity, but I don't see that as happening just yet. I basically don't see enough of a difference between him and a player like Zidane at this point to justify putting him in the very top bracket of footballer. The three footballers mentioned up there in my opinion show enough to stand out quite obviously, even if it was only for a limited period of time in two cases.

SteveJ speculated earlier in this thread that he's perhaps too focused on being the star and I agree with that. He is by no means an Inzaghi of some sort in terms of his role but I think he's so focused on statistics that his willingness to really impact a game consistently aside from goals looks to have suffered. I agree with you though that 09/10 was the closest Ronaldo has come to finding the best balance.

All this being said, I think this sort of thing really hammers home how much better than someone like Bale Ronaldo actually is. I know it's not the point in the thread but it's driving me mad seeing journalists seriously and repeatedly drawing a competitive comparison between the two. Any criticism levelled at Ronaldo like this can be levelled at Bale ten fold, and that's despite Ronaldo's productivity being through the roof by comparison.