Cristiano Ronaldo

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Balu said:
Yeah, but football is more than just scoring goals. There are things like defending and creating chances for others that play a huge part in winning games as well. And part of Madrid's circus is the reason why he's scoring so many goals. The whole team is setup to get him at the end of almost every attack. Bayern is a better team because there's no one like Ronaldo in it. Play Ronaldo instead of Ribery at Bayern this season and you're clearly weakening the team, it's that easy.

Can Ronaldo be a different player? Probably yes, but he wasn't this year. If we call someone the best player of the season, who's waiting upfront to score but does feck all if his team is struggling to create chances or is heavily attacked through his side of the pitch all game, there's something wrong with football. It's no problem if the team wins titles, because then his goal scoring is more important than his flaws. If his team is winning nothing and is outplayed by individually weaker opponents, then he shouldn't be anywhere near the Ballon D'Or.
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This sums him up well imo. He tends to not be involved much but he gets his goals but if you watch his performances you see he doesn't do much. The performances against us and Dortmund are typical Ronaldo big game performances. He is unable to create really and when the game is going against Real he doesn't stand out from the crowd at all. He is too often missing in big games.
 
JaffyJoe said:
This sums him up well imo. He tends to not be involved much but he gets his goals but if you watch his performances you see he doesn't do much. The performances against us and Dortmund are typical Ronaldo big game performances. He is unable to create really and when the game is going against Real he doesn't stand out from the crowd at all. He is too often missing in big games.
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He's Madrid's second highest assist maker - only Ozil has more and Ozil has the advantage that he has Ronaldo to pass to.

The problem in big games is that Madrid are ridiculously and pathetically dependant on him and everyone knows it, which means their games become about stopping Ronaldo getting on the ball. In a proper team that would mean the other forwards have less defenders to deal with and the midfielders can work the space. In Madrid that just makes them look toothless.

Higuain, even on form, doesn't score in the CL - 8 goals in 48 games - and that's including Madrid's often very comfortable wins in the group stage. Benzema record is better but his form this season has been poor.

Above all though, Madrid are dependant on Ronaldo for fight. When Ronaldo led Madrid out against Barcelona in the Copa del Rey this year (with most of their defence missing) they relied on him for fire and determination even more than his goals. That's not a one off either - Madrid without Ronaldo roll over embarrassingly easily.

You think he doesn't do much? Their entire team go missing in big games - Ronaldo's the least of their problems, and is often their only solution.
 
jojojo said:
He's Madrid's second highest assist maker - only Ozil has more and Ozil has the advantage that he has Ronaldo to pass to.

The problem in big games is that Madrid are ridiculously and pathetically dependant on him and everyone knows it, which means their games become about stopping Ronaldo getting on the ball. In a proper team that would mean the other forwards have less defenders to deal with and the midfielders can work the space. In Madrid that just makes them look toothless.

Higuain, even on form, doesn't score in the CL - 8 goals in 48 games - and that's including Madrid's often very comfortable wins in the group stage. Benzema record is better but his form this season has been poor.

Above all though, Madrid are dependant on Ronaldo for fight. When Ronaldo led Madrid out against Barcelona in the Copa del Rey they relied on him for fire and determination.

You think he doesn't do much? Their entire team go missing in big games - Ronaldo's the least of their problems, and is often their only solution.
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I'm not talking stat wise because he is a talented player he will get assists but he is not particularly creative and doesn't make things happen in a tight game. It is his teammates job to get him chances and create for him so when they are off he struggles. He doesn't then have the creativity to make it easier for them he ends up being largely ineffective.

They are dependent on him because that is how they are set up to get the most out of Ronaldo and 9/10 that is enough to carry them to the win with the other's playing a supporting role. But in the big games he doesn't do enough for me. Against Dortmund he was happy to camp out on the wing doing little to get involved in the game and only became active when he moved centrally. The same in the second leg. Madrid where all over them and that was despite Ronaldo he still had a quiet game.

So basically when they win it is because of him and when they lose it isn't his fault? That won't run for me. He struggles to individually stamp his imprint on big games. He scored two against Bayern last season and was quiet the rest of the game. He was quiet against us I don't think we had any particular plan to stop Ronaldo we denied them space as a team to play with. Then he was great against Galatassary then quiet against Dortmund. Some games he will play an all round great game and dominate in others he will be quiet and score. But in big games he tends to do the latter more often.
 
jojojo said:
The problem in big games is that Madrid are ridiculously and pathetically dependant on him and everyone knows it, which means their games become about stopping Ronaldo getting on the ball. In a proper team that would mean the other forwards have less defenders to deal with and the midfielders can work the space. In Madrid that just makes them look toothless.
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The top teams in europe (Bayern last year, Dortmund and United this year) don't take Ronaldo out of the game by man marking him, which would give other players more space. They take Özil and Alonso out, so Ronaldo had time and space to drop deeper and could try to create something for the team. But he doesn't do it and the team struggles in the build up from defense to attack and looks broken.

Why is Madrid ridiculously dependent on him when man-marking other players is the solution to make them look toothless? I really don't get that.
 
Its difficult to mark Ronaldo out of the game, easier to cut his supply.

I'm not sure what your getting at, are you arguing that Ronaldo isn't the player that Madrid are most dependent on?
 
jojojo said:
He's Madrid's second highest assist maker - only Ozil has more and Ozil has the advantage that he has Ronaldo to pass to.

The problem in big games is that Madrid are ridiculously and pathetically dependant on him and everyone knows it, which means their games become about stopping Ronaldo getting on the ball. In a proper team that would mean the other forwards have less defenders to deal with and the midfielders can work the space. In Madrid that just makes them look toothless.

Higuain, even on form, doesn't score in the CL - 8 goals in 48 games - and that's including Madrid's often very comfortable wins in the group stage. Benzema record is better but his form this season has been poor.

Above all though, Madrid are dependant on Ronaldo for fight. When Ronaldo led Madrid out against Barcelona in the Copa del Rey this year (with most of their defence missing) they relied on him for fire and determination even more than his goals. That's not a one off either - Madrid without Ronaldo roll over embarrassingly easily.

You think he doesn't do much? Their entire team go missing in big games - Ronaldo's the least of their problems, and is often their only solution.
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Barca are a far worse example than Madrid, and I really don't mean to draw a comparison to him and the Argentine. But these two clubs have the biggest players in the world, and of course their main attacking play goes through them, it's what they're there for. Many people like to think Ronaldo only contributes in goals and is a selfish player; well yes he is, that's something he brings to the table that few can at that magnitude. But like jojojo said he's second in assists to Ozil, but onlookers will focus on the goals he brings and forgets the link up play he can provide too.

Also I really don't understand the "he doesn't turn up in big games" argument: For the past 3 years he's been at Madrid he's pretty been their only stand out performer against Barca, he's the top scorer with 12 in the Champions league, which is 2 more than Lewa who got 4 in one game alone, and 4 more than the next 2. How many more big games do you want him to play? There are only so many in one calendar season you can play in.
 
I don't see the issue with playing to your strength.

Madrid's is Ronaldo, Barcelona's is Messi. And both play around that.
 
Red Shorts said:
Barca are a far worse example than Madrid, and I really don't mean to draw a comparison to him and the Argentine. But these two clubs have the biggest players in the world, and of course their main attacking play goes through them, it's what they're there for. Many people like to think Ronaldo only contributes in goals and is a selfish player; well yes he is, that's something he brings to the table that few can at that magnitude. But like jojojo said he's second in assists to Ozil, but onlookers will focus on the goals he brings and forgets the link up play he can provide too.

Also I really don't understand the "he doesn't turn up in big games" argument: For the past 3 years he's been at Madrid he's pretty been their only stand out performer against Barca, he's the top scorer with 12 in the Champions league, which is 2 more than Lewa who got 4 in one game alone, and 4 more than the next 2. How many more big games do you want him to play? There are only so many in one calendar season you can play in.
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He will score in games because that is what he does best but when you are talking about his imprint on a game outside goals it goes noticeably down in big games. The performances he put in against us and Dortmund are typical Ronaldo big game performances, largely anonymous but he will score his goals.
 
JaffyJoe said:
He will score in games because that is what he does best but when you are talking about his imprint on a game outside goals it goes noticeably down in big games. The performances he put in against us and Dortmund are typical Ronaldo big game performances, largely anonymous but he will score his goals.
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So when he's anonymous, he still produces the goods? What's the problem?
 
Kid Cunto said:
So when he's anonymous, he still produces the goods? What's the problem?
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They lost to Dortmund if you don't remember. They also where lucky to get through against us. Those are not the kind of performances you want to see from him. Something of a flat track bully. People obsess about how many goals he scores but his all-round game he doesn't do enough for me. The best players are judged by what they do in the big games and he lacks in that regard.
 
Kid Cunto said:
So when he's anonymous, he still produces the goods? What's the problem?
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I don't get it either. Going by some posts you'd be forgiven to think that goals are a side effect of football matches and in the grand scheme of things totally unimportant.

And one thing that people tend to forget: When Ronaldo seems to be anonymous, it's because several players of the opposite game mark him which again takes pressure from Ronaldo's teammates.
 
I think he's too hyped-up (ie nervous/anxious/pressurised etc) in big games, tries too hard to score & be the star.
 
JaffyJoe said:
They lost to Dortmund if you don't remember. They also where lucky to get through against us. Those are not the kind of performances you want to see from him. Something of a flat track bully. People obsess about how many goals he scores but his all-round game he doesn't do enough for me. The best players are judged by what they do in the big games and he lacks in that regard.
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The hardest thing in football is to score consistently. And he does exactly that. The man is one of the all time greats. He's incredible. You're evaluation of him is extremely harsh, would you say the same about Messi?
 
Lailiani said:
I don't get it either. Going by some posts you'd be forgiven to think that goals are a side effect of football matches and in the grand scheme of things totally unimportant.

And one thing that people tend to forget: When Ronaldo seems to be anonymous, it's because several players of the opposite game mark him which again takes pressure from Ronaldo's teammates.
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Indeed!
 
JaffyJoe said:
They lost to Dortmund if you don't remember. They also where lucky to get through against us. Those are not the kind of performances you want to see from him. Something of a flat track bully. People obsess about how many goals he scores but his all-round game he doesn't do enough for me. The best players are judged by what they do in the big games and he lacks in that regard.
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He scored the goals which knocked us out, scored against Dortmund, has scored in a Champions League final, dragged us to the CL final in the first place, scored the goal which won us the title on the last day, scored in numerous El Classico's (pretty much sealing them the title at the Nou Camp) as well as scoring against Barca in a Copa Del Ray final. I haven't really followed his career in Spain, so I'm just aware of a few matches, but saying he doesn't score in big games is just sort of, well, wrong really.

I can understand people complaining about his attitude during his time here or something but to criticise his actual performances and ability is ridiculous
 
Lailiani said:
And one thing that people tend to forget: When Ronaldo seems to be anonymous, it's because several players of the opposite game mark him which again takes pressure from Ronaldo's teammates.
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SteveJ said:
I think he's too hyped-up (ie nervous/anxious etc) in big games, tries too hard to score & be the star.
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Could be either, only the man himself would really know.

Anyway, I thought we were past this 'he doesn't show up for the big games' myth. He's scored in plenty of massive games. Champions League final, FA Cup final, Copa del Rey final, El Clásico's, European Cup's, and World Cup's. That debate has been put well and truly to bed.
 
Fergus' son said:
Its difficult to mark Ronaldo out of the game, easier to cut his supply.

I'm not sure what your getting at, are you arguing that Ronaldo isn't the player that Madrid are most dependent on?
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Yes, I doubt that's true for games against european top teams. I think they should set up in a way that makes Ronaldo part of the team, makes him work for others as well, allows him to influence the game without scoring goals. If you limit his teammates' strengths to increase his goal scoring rate, it's usually not the best way to get the best out of the team and it shows against strong opponents who play smart and disciplined against Real.
 
JaffyJoe said:
They lost to Dortmund if you don't remember. They also where lucky to get through against us. Those are not the kind of performances you want to see from him. Something of a flat track bully. People obsess about how many goals he scores but his all-round game he doesn't do enough for me. The best players are judged by what they do in the big games and he lacks in that regard.
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He still got what could have been a crucial away goal against Dortmund, scored home and away against us and if you cast your mind back to just last season he got two against Bayern in the semis, he just scored in a domestic cup final and almost always scores against Barca. He's a lot of things but flat track bully is quite clearly not one of them.

The reason Madrid went out to Dortmund was more due to defensive frailties than anything Ronaldo did or didn't do. He's arguably more of a big game player than Messi is and in any case I'd like to know of any player whose level doesn't drop against better opposition.
 
Balu said:
Yes, I doubt that's true for games against european top teams. I think they should set up in a way that makes Ronaldo part of the team, makes him work for others as well, allows him to influence the game without scoring goals. If you limit his teammates' strengths to increase his goal scoring rate, it's usually not the best way to get the best out of the team and it shows against strong opponents who play smart and disciplined against Real.
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We used to do the same thing at Utd and it served us well. I'm not sure which of his RM teammates strengths have been limited to increase Ronaldos scoring rate? Mind elaborating?

Also it pretty laughable IMO the suggestion that Ronaldo isn't RMs most important player, as laughable as the suggestion that Xavi is Barcelonas and not Messi.
 
Kid Cunto said:
The hardest thing in football is to score consistently. And he does exactly that. The man is one of the all time greats. He's incredible. You're evaluation of him is extremely harsh, would you say the same about Messi?
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I wouldn't say the same about Messi under Guardiola, especially from 2008-2011, but it was pretty much the same with Messi under Vilanova this season, imo. Though Messi is way better in creating chances for himself which allows him to influence the game more than Ronaldo when the opponent's tactics destroy their teams build up play.
 
I'm comparing Ronaldo to Ronaldo. When you watch him you see that he is less effective overall. He scores and manages to play well in most games but in the bigger games his effectiveness is diminished for one reason or another. He scored against us in both legs he didn't play well in either match, he scored against Dortmund and was anonymous same in the second leg. I'm comparing him with his own standards. He is a great player obviously these are just things I pick up on. He doesn't shine as much in big games against the very best teams.
 
SteveJ said:
I think he's too hyped-up (ie nervous/anxious/pressurised etc) in big games, tries too hard to score & be the star.
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I hate players that do this, I mean what's the point of having someone in the team who you want to go out and score goals, it's incredibly selfish. His 59 goals this season to himself is incredibly selfish, and should be giving the opportunities to Benzema and Higuain instead...
 
JaffyJoe said:
I'm comparing Ronaldo to Ronaldo. When you watch him you see that he is less effective overall. He scores and manages to play well in most games but in the bigger games his effectiveness is diminished for one reason or another. He scored against us in both legs he didn't play well in either match, he scored against Dortmund and was anonymous same in the second leg. I'm comparing him with his own standards. He is a great player obviously these are just things I pick up on. He doesn't shine as much in big games against the very best teams.
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I would've thought its fairly obvious why a players influence will diminish against better opposition?
 
Fergus' son said:
I would've thought its fairly obvious why a players influence will diminish against better opposition?
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No, usually not. Why would it? Of course, your team usually scores less goals against stronger opposition on average. And if you're only contribution is goals and you're massively dependent on your teammates to create something for you, then it diminishes. That's actually the point he's trying to make.
 
Balu said:
No, usually not. Why would it? Of course, your team usually scores less goals against stronger opposition on average. And if you're only contribution is goals and you're massively dependent on your teammates to create something for you, then it diminishes. That's actually the point he's trying to make.
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Exactly i'm not talking goals i'm talking his ability to effect the match outside goals. In the bigger games that ability diminishes.
 
Goooose said:
Apparently Ramon Calderon has said Ronaldo will definitely leave Madrid in the summer but not for United.
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I listened to the whole interview this morning. He didn't say he was definitely leaving. He said that there is a rule at Real to re-negotiate deals when they are down to 2 years, and that Real and Ronaldo will be negotiating this summer.

He said that if negotiations fell through and Ronaldo was to leave, he thinks that only PSG, Chelsea, and City would be able to afford the transfer fee and wages.

In the same interview he also said that Ronaldo was one of the players to fall our with Mourinho, so surely that would tamper a Chelsea move somewhat?

IF Ronaldo becomes available, surely we would show an interest. Then it would be down to Ronaldo himself.
 
JaffyJoe said:
Exactly i'm not talking goals i'm talking his ability to effect the match outside goals. In the bigger games that ability diminishes.
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Yeah, because of the better defenders and managers hes facing, I thought that would be obvious?
 
Balu said:
No, usually not. Why would it? Of course, your team usually scores less goals against stronger opposition on average. And if you're only contribution is goals and you're massively dependent on your teammates to create something for you, then it diminishes. That's actually the point he's trying to make.
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Sorry that rubbish, any influence, be it goals or anything else, is likely to diminish against better opposition.
 
@Fergus'son
This is a regular occurrence with Ronaldo he is a quality player that shouldn't always be the case. He doesn't influence the biggest games as much as he should. That isn't enough of an excuse. Teams set up for Ronaldinho that didn't stop him. Messi at a time also. When your good enough it doesn't matter. For Ronaldo he struggles consistently.
 
Roon101 said:
I listened to the whole interview this morning. He didn't say he was definitely leaving. He said that there is a rule at Real to re-negotiate deals when they are down to 2 years, and that Real and Ronaldo will be negotiating this summer.

He said that if negotiations fell through and Ronaldo was to leave, he thinks that only PSG, Chelsea, and City would be able to afford the transfer fee and wages.

In the same interview he also said that Ronaldo was one of the players to fall our with Mourinho, so surely that would tamper a Chelsea move somewhat?

IF Ronaldo becomes available, surely we would show an interest. Then it would be down to Ronaldo himself.
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Apparently we have a first option clause if he becomes available.
 
Ronaldo was never really a creative player, he's a selfish predator. So I don't know why we'd judge him on creating chances for other players, especially when you consider the teams he has played for have all set up to create him chances and not vice versa.
 
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