Cristiano Ronaldo - Much Ado About Al Nassr

Kwabs said:
Modern revisionism. No one questioned his record at the time. In fact, his tally of 1279 goals is a Gunness World Record. And if CR7's goals in Saudi Arabia count, then I'm pretty sure all of Pele's should.
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Erm no club friendlies don't count.
 
Gehrman said:
Erm no club friendlies don't count.
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People who make this argument do not understand that football is not the same now as it was in the 60s, and particularly do not understand that Santos's situation (and that of South American football) was not equivalent to a modern European club. A 'friendly' is a game that is not part of a competition and exists as its own entity. But that does not mean that it is not a hard fought or high profile match, especially back then, when Santos played a lot of out of competition matches, as that made them more money than playing in competitions.

Here is the Wikipedia page for the Santos game against European champions Real Madrid in 1959. Pele was already a world champion, and the game was greatly anticipated as it was to determine who the best club team in the world was, and who the best player in the world was. It was played in front of a packed Bernebeu and was written about afterwards by dozens of prominent journalists. Explain, logically, why the goal Pele scored in this game 'doesn't count'?

https://pt.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Real_Madrid_5–3_Santos_(1959)
 
Kwabs said:
People who make this argument do not understand that football is not the same now as it was in the 60s, and particularly do not understand that Santos's situation (and that of South American football) was not equivalent to a modern European club. A 'friendly' is a game that is not part of a competition and exists as its own entity. But that does not mean that it is not a hard fought or high profile match, especially back then, when Santos played a lot of out of competition matches, as that made them more money than playing in competitions.

Here is the Wikipedia page for the Santos game against European champions Real Madrid in 1959. Pele was already a world champion, and the game was greatly anticipated as it was to determine who the best club team in the world was, and who the best player in the world was. It was played in front of a packed Bernebeu and was written about afterwards by dozens of prominent journalists. Explain, logically, why the goal Pele scored in this game 'doesn't count'?

https://pt.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Real_Madrid_5–3_Santos_(1959)
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So do you think we should count all club friendly matches, including goals against military sides or just the high profile ones? And why do it just Pelé and not everyone else?
 
Kwabs said:
Almost at 900 goals now. Which is insane. However, Pele had a thousand before he turned 30.
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Nonsense. The numbers of Brazilian players are exaggerated.
No way did he score 1000 before 30 unless they count goals scored in training. It's like Romario claiming he scored 1000 goals too but when you look at official games and official games stats he's not even close to it.

Tulio Maravilha is another one who claims he scored 1000 but again his stats show it's bs.
 
Gehrman said:
So do you think we should count all club friendly matches, including goals against military sides or just the high profile ones? And why do it just Pelé and not everyone else?
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The military goals is something else that people who are not that knowledgeable about the subject (no disrespect) bring up. And they comprise a handful of goals. The question is not whether or not we should count all the friendly and tour game goals, the point is that until the modern revisionism, they were counted. Why didn't Guinness, when establishing his world record, say 'hang on - half of these were scored in friendlies and tour games, so they don't count'?

The reason they didn't do this is because they understood the context of the time, the player and his club. And to answer your question, any player who played five hundred or so of these games (which Pele did) should reasonably be able to count the goals they scored in them. That's more than many players' entire careers.
 
Just because he played in loads of friendlies doesn't mean they count, that's a silly argument.
 
Bican scored more than 1400 goals counting friendly matches., see the territory where headed at? Then he should have the guiness world record
Yeah some friendly matches played might have been significant and played very competively and a lot of them probably weren't. If he could play so many friendly's on top of his official competitive matches it probably means these games were probably mainly played with the foot off the pedal.
 
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Gehrman said:
Bican scored more than 1400 goals counting friendly matches., see the territory where headed at? Then he should have the guiness world record
Yeah some friendly matches played might have been significant and played very competively and a lot of them probably weren't. If he could play so many friendly's on top of his official competitive matches it probably means these games were probably mainly played with the foot off the pedal.
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Well that is an argument for Bican fans to make and I wouldn't necessarily disagree. But you're making my point for me, what happened to Bican is the same thing that happened to Pele, we're being led to believe through modern revisionism, that Bican did not score more goals than Cristiano Ronaldo when he in fact did. And I don't agree about the 'foot off the pedal', many of Pele's tour games were very hard fought and his schedule and that of Santos was relentless. He played nearly 1400 games in 80 different countries in his career as a whole
 
Pele included goals when he played with his mates in the Brazil army. If he walked past a Sunday league game and heard that a goal went in he was claiming that as well. No chance did he score the amount they claim he did.
 
FujiVice said:
Pele included goals when he played with his mates in the Brazil army. If he walked past a Sunday league game and heard that a goal went in he was claiming that as well. No chance did he score the amount they claim he did.
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Probably better opponents than for 50% of Ronaldo's goals in EC qualifiers. (Runs and hides...)
 
Kwabs said:
Well that is an argument for Bican fans to make and I wouldn't necessarily disagree. But you're making my point for me, what happened to Bican is the same thing that happened to Pele, we're being led to believe through modern revisionism, that Bican did not score more goals than Cristiano Ronaldo when he in fact did. And I don't agree about the 'foot off the pedal', many of Pele's tour games were very hard fought and his schedule and that of Santos was relentless. He played nearly 1400 games in 80 different countries in his career as a whole
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I made an error what i meant is that many of these games were probably played with the foot of the pedal. Not all of them. Im sure when they played exhibition matches against big sides they were treated competively but i doubt most of them were. Its not just Pelé but his Santos team mates if they played there abouts 500+ matches on top their official matches they would be gassed. I don't doubt some of those matches were of significance but you can't justify counting all the other friendlies on that count.

Perhaps Guniness was just showing a bit of bias when not having Bican as the all time top scorer. Otherwise we can do historical revisionism and pick the precise date that club friendlies don't count towards an official tally.
 
Gehrman said:
I made an error what i meant is that many of these games were probably played with the foot of the pedal. Not all of them. Im sure when they played exhibition matches against big sides they were treated competively but i doubt most of them were. Its not just Pelé but his Santos team mates if they played there abouts 500+ matches on top their official matches they would be gassed. I don't doubt some of those matches were of significance but you can't justify counting all the other friendlies on that count.

Perhaps Guniness was just showing a bit of bias when not having Bican as the all time top scorer. Otherwise we can do historical revisionism and pick the precise date that club friendlies don't count towards an official tally.
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I don't think what you're saying is unreasonable, but I just think the game has changed a lot since the 60s. We assess players from the past using modern standards.
 
Call me crazy but I think he’s still a better all round player than the likes of Halaand.
 
MrEleson said:
Call me crazy but I think he’s still a better all round player than the likes of Halaand.
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He still is, and by many standards, a world-class player. I just don't think he is a 90-minute player anymore because I don't think he has the fitness to keep up with the high intensity for that much time.
Playing him for 30-45 minutes would be the trick to get the best out of him and the team in this Euros. It's never going to happen though
 
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Gonçalo Motta said:
He is, and by many standards, he still is a world-class player. I just don't think he is a 90-minute player anymore because I don't think he has the fitness to keep up with the high intensity for that much time.
Playing him for 30-45 minutes would be the trick to get the best out of him and the team in this Euros. It's never going to happen though
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Completely agree. Ronaldo won't accept that though. He should be an impact sub but it won't happen. His relationship with Martinez tells that. Gonçalo Ramos having a subpar year for PSG and not building on a very decent world cup stint in our national team will also help Ronaldo starter case.
 
Zehner said:
Some nice little insights by Sami Khedira on how the arrival of Cristiano at Juventus raised the level in training and professionalism of the younger players in the squad:

https://www.sportskeeda.com/footbal...nt-cristiano-ronaldo-federico-chiesa-juventus
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Nice tidbit, thanks for sharing. He also says he was very humble and friendly while being extremely competitive. Not the first player I've seen putting the words humble and Cristiano together.

People think being humble as a human being is what you say in front of the cameras, while it's the exact opposite. It's how you act in your day to day job, away from the cameras.
 
MrEleson said:
And you have our fans calling him a rotten apple in the dressing room during his 2nd spell here.
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Because he lost the plot and did a bloody Piers Morgan interview…

Interesting pub quiz esque fact from the article which is quite cool is he’s the only player ever to win the golden boot, capocannoniere and pichichi.
 
Glorio said:
Regardless of how condescending you attempt to be, it's a fact
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What’s a fact? That he was trying to raise the standards of the club while he was here and that it didn’t go down well with some of the lazy, entitled, overpaid players we employ?
 
Joel Miller said:
You would drink the guys bath water so obviously you’re going to put player before club. It’ll be why you get so wound up with people who call him out for what he is.
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I’m not actually wound up. I just made a point.
 
Kwabs said:
Modern revisionism. No one questioned his record at the time. In fact, his tally of 1279 goals is a Gunness World Record. And if CR7's goals in Saudi Arabia count, then I'm pretty sure all of Pele's should.
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How long does "modern revisionism" cover exactly? Because Pele's "record" has been disputed since well.... a very very long time now.
 
MrEleson said:
What’s a fact? That he was trying to raise the standards of the club while he was here and that it didn’t go down well with some of the lazy, entitled, overpaid players we employ?
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Those same players did just fine without him the following season and did fine without him in the prior season to his arrival.

You can't raise the standards of the club by being an unprofessional narcissist.

Walking out of a game early and then getting rewarded with the captain's armband a few weeks later wouldn't happen to any other player sans Ronaldo. ETH tried to stroke his ego and he still went and disrespected him once more with the disgraceful Piers Morgan interview.

And his performances during the 2nd season were akin to that of a lottery winner.
 
MrEleson said:
What’s a fact? That he was trying to raise the standards of the club while he was here and that it didn’t go down well with some of the lazy, entitled, overpaid players we employ?
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"Raise" isn't the word I'd use considering his own performances that season and seeing that the only place that would accommodate those impossibly high and mighty standards after his incredibly idiotic interview was the Saudi League.
 
MrEleson said:
What’s a fact? That he was trying to raise the standards of the club while he was here and that it didn’t go down well with some of the lazy, entitled, overpaid players we employ?
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Do you mean by not working for his teammates, pressing or by throwing his arms up in the air every time he made a 5 yards sprint and didn't received the ball. We immediately became a worse football team with his arrival. It cost us a season and Ole his job. What positive impact you think he had in the dressingroom or on the training grounds here I'm curious to hear. To me it seemed his presence were extremely toxic and deviding, both in the dressing room and towards the manager(s). As rotten as they come.
 
I wish Ronaldo raised his own level here in his 2nd spell because the majority of his football here wouldn't have looked out of place for a pub team.
 
troylocker said:
Do you mean by not working for his teammates, pressing or by throwing his arms up in the air every time he made a 5 yards sprint and didn't received the ball. We immediately became a worse football team with his arrival. It cost us a season and Ole his job. What positive impact you think he had in the dressingroom or on the training grounds here I'm curious to hear. To me it seemed his presence were extremely toxic and deviding, both in the dressing room and towards the manager(s). As rotten as they come.
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"Why me? Why not one of the younger ones!?". When he was subbed off and throwing a tantrum. Yeah a great mentor. And then the sub immediately scored a goal.
 
troylocker said:
What positive impact you think he had in the dressingroom or on the training grounds here I'm curious to hear. To me it seemed his presence were extremely toxic and deviding, both in the dressing room and towards the manager(s). As rotten as they come.
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That’s contrary to what the likes of Elanga, Sancho, Pogba and co. said. They all had high praises of him but alright. Heck even AWB only had good things to say.
Seems like the only ones that had an issue were the ones that perform every other season like Rashford or the one that turned out to be a rotten apple himself; Greenwood.
 
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