It’s inevitable though when these goals are ‘platformed’ as some great achievement.
And neither will they, so there’s no point in complaining about it. But…you already know that.
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Cristiano Ronaldo - Much Ado About Al Nassr
- Thread starter Bastian
- Start date
It’s inevitable though when these goals are ‘platformed’ as some great achievement.
Again, people forget how technical brilliant Young Ronaldo was.
Do you think that Ronaldo growing up all his life with Rijkaard & Guardiola in La Liga would be the same Ronaldo as the one who grew up in the PL under SAF? Do you just think he forgot to do all those step overs?
He ultimately gave that technicality up to become more physically strong because where did he develop?
In a strength league like England.
Messi played in the most stable league for technical players all his career and perfected his technicality. The same way Ronaldinho went to Barcelona and started dancing before scoring goals like his brilliant goal vs Chelsea.
If he grew up in any other league he would have had to adapt to that league's strengths and weaknesses which he didnt even do very well at PSG.
Anyway, you have your GOAT & i have mine.
Messi without Iniesta and Xavi won what?
All La Liga prizes.
The league of technicality.
How many players have become worse after moving to different leagues or even the same league but different clubs?
Neymar to PSG
Greizmann to Barcelona
Di Maria to United
Sanchez to United
Torres to Chelsea
Pogba to United
Coutinho to Barcelona
Shevchenko to Chelsea
Zlatan to Barcelona
Hazard to Real Madrid
These were arguably the best player of their team or even league at the point they left by the way - just to put some perspective. I don't get why Messi gets this free ticket like he would have and could have played in every league in the world and still come out as the best player in world football.
I can go on and on - yet we are supposed to assume that Messi 'could have & would have done it'.
No sorry not for me. He never did it.
One player dominated every league in the world + 5 CL (playing in every final) + Euros whilst the other dominated La Liga + 3 CL (+1 for Rijkaard not playing in the final) & WC.
Maybe your GOAT could have conquered world football in another way playing for Chelsea or even Man City.
No, not for him.
I dont even think he would have scored his 91 goal season if he had played in his prime at Ligue 1 as we saw in his best season for PSG where he got under 20 (16 goals) which is absolutely nuts for a player like Messi who still won the Balon D'or so was clearly not past his prime. 16 goals in his best season at PSG
Anyway, you have your goat because of what you didnt see in Ronaldo (the extra technicality/assists, Balond D'ors & WC) whilst i have my Goat because of what i didn't see in Messi (him going to other top leagues and having to adapt to the differences around the world in both team mates and opposition and still coming out on top).
It's not like i don't see that Messi's goals and assists are of a completely different universe to Ronaldo. It literally makes my body get pins and needles because of how good Messi's plays are compared to Ronaldo -
But ultimately just as much as his play was from another universe they came all from just playing mostly in Spain for arguably the most well built Spanish team since the days of Cruyff that follows the same total philosophy to this date.
The players Ronaldo had to play with as team mates were much more different in style than the ones Messi got to play with. Yet at the same time the opposition that Ronaldo had to deal with was much more different of styles to the ones Messi had to deal with. The leagues were different in styles. Ronaldo got built like Robocop as he grew out his technicality to power in Portugal, the PL, La Liga, Serie A whilst Messi was the cute 'little magician' always at Barcelona.
The closest player to that i saw to CR7 was Ibrahimovic because he nearly conquered every league aswell but without the CL's and i dont find it shocking that he has a similair strength frame and body to Ronaldo for him to do that rather than being this 'little magician' just in Spain.
Also if Messi is your GOAT then so is Guardiola the best ever manager.
Doesnt matter about Barcelona bribing referees. Doesnt matter that he built the best teams ever possibly in La Liga or City. Doesnt matter the trebles. Doesn't matter that Guardiola at Bayern was similair to Messi's 'dip' at PSG.
Also name me the top 10 players at MLS & then name me the top 10 players in Saudi Arabia.
Dont even bother adding the ones that will be joining the league this year. If you think the MLS is a better league than Saudi then so be it. I won't convince you the same way you can't convince me.
God, what i would have done to have seen Messi outside of club de la total football and see him growing up in counter attacking teams like Jose's Inter Milan or Chelsea, even City under Mancini or even United under SAF who had f* all to do about possesion football.
It would have shut either me up or you up.
But still to this date - it's 'would have, could have' for Messi playing in different leagues.
One conquered world football by winning all trophies for one club, one league and International football.
The other conquered world football playing for different leagues, clubs, players, opposition and the Euro's which is a sh*t tonne harder than Copa America just to put perspective in to his National performances. Mbappe has already won one WC at the age of 25 but has still not won an Euro's.
I find it hard believe that you´re not @Bebestation who´s created a new profile. Bebe used the same phrases and recycles the same arguments you´re making.
And Ronaldinho was "dancing" for PSG and Brazil before he went to Barca. He just hit his peak there. Its not like Man Utd doesnt have a reputation for wing wizards. Actually tricky wingers used to part of the "United way".
Unfortunately missed out on being a one team man whilst not even outscoring Rashfords 17 goal season in the PL in the all mighty ligue 1
GOAT seems to struggle outside his own farm!
still thinks Messi is a penalty box tap-in merchant like his idol, have you ever watched Messi, do you know what position he plays?
Using your logic, Mbappe struggled even more in Ligue 1. This is what happens when you post without having a single clue, below is for your education.Struggling Messi 2022-23 in Ligue 1 + CL
40 G/A in 39 games vs Mbappe with 45 in 42 games
Most assists (2nd most in Europe)
Highest per game rating in Europe 8.3 (vs Mbappe 7.81)
Most MOTM in Europe (14 vs Mbappe with 7)
2nd most big chance creation in Europe
2nd most successful dribbles in Europe
www.onefootball.com/en/news/players-with-most-man-of-the-match-trophies-in-europe-in-2223-including-messi-haaland-37660873
Ballon D'or 2023
FIFA Best 2023
IFFHS World's Best Playmaker 2022
IFFHS World's Best Playmaker 2nd 2023
I do wonder why Ronaldo could only win 1 Ballon D'or, 1 Golden Shoe, 2 league top goal scorer award in 12 years outside La Liga despite playing with the best teams under the best managers. Why did he struggle so much? Why is he struggling in Saudi Arabia winning nothing, getting thrashed in every single cup despite all these investments so that he can statpad?
Do you know why he never won IFFHS World's Best Playmaker award vs Messi with 5? Any idea why he won a single top goalscorer award in the last 9 years in Europe? any idea why he has less Golden Shoes than Messi? why he only has 5 Golden Boots in 23 years in his career (the same number Messi won only between 2016-2021 as a playmaker) despite playing as a tap-in merchant. Any idea on why he has 0 g&a in knockouts in 5 WCs, why does he struggle so much? Any idea why he's never considered among the greatest playmakers, dribblers, passers, creators of the game? Why no MVP award in 5 WCs & Euros? Even Modric, Forlan, Zagorakis have one.
I also wonder why Real, United, Juve all showed him the door, do you have any idea why?
Any idea why he got rejected everywhere in Europe ending up in Saudi?
below is for your education, go search if PL has been that humiliated by another league this much in any part of their history.
"Premier League's pain in Spain: Arsenal loss to Atletico Madrid means English sides have lost 23 of last 27 European knockout ties against their La Liga counterparts"
www.dailymail.co.uk/sport/football/article-5690749/English-sides-lost-23-27-European-knockout-ties-against-La-Liga-counterparts.html
You should increase your copium.
Non-struggling Ronaldo outside La Liga 12 years:
1 Ballon D'or
1 Golden Shoe
2 League top goalscorer award
struggling Messi outside La Liga in 2 years
1 Ballon D'or
2 FIFA Best
1 IFFHS World's Best Playmaker
1 IFFHS World's Best Playmaker (2nd)
Ligue 1 most assists
Ligue 1 + CL most assists
highest per game rating in Europe
most MOTM in Europe
2nd most big chance creation/dribbles etc.
Below are some of the 1-league players who would all struggle outside their league because world famous football expert dontbemeantoberuud says so
Maldini
Pele
Xavi
Iniesta
Totti
Beckenbauer
Gerd Muller
Giggs
Rooney
Bobby Charlton
Eusebio
Baggio
Baresi
Nesta
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Mental that there's still people in here doing the Ronaldo vs Messi thing. Are you all ok?
Sheesh, I was wondering why the thread just kept getting bumped and thought something had happened. Something like he won a title or they played to a sell out crowd. But no, it's newbies firing themselves up with pro/contra Ronaldo ‘facts’.
I can't sleep at night untill there is a scientific consensus.
Yes but I'm slowly losing the will to live and this keeps the old fire burning.
How are you?
I'm good mate, how are you? I can threadban you from here for your own sanity if you want and then you can go frolic in the fields?
Individually the goals scored in Saudi are obviously not a great achievement. However, reaching a career total of 1000 would go down as a huge achievement regardless of where the last 150 or so goals came from. People should also not underestimate how much dedication and sheer will is needed to keep fit at his age - yes the technical and tactical level is lower, but he still has to compete against athletes 10-15 years younger.
And neither will they, so there’s no point in complaining about it. But…you already know that.
I know
It's okay Cristiano, calm down. Bloody hellAgain, people forget how technical brilliant Young Ronaldo was.
Do you think that Ronaldo growing up all his life with Rijkaard & Guardiola in La Liga would be the same Ronaldo as the one who grew up in the PL under SAF? Do you just think he forgot to do all those step overs?
He ultimately gave that technicality up to become more physically strong because where did he develop?
In a strength league like England.
Messi played in the most stable league for technical players all his career and perfected his technicality. The same way Ronaldinho went to Barcelona and started dancing before scoring goals like his brilliant goal vs Chelsea.
If he grew up in any other league he would have had to adapt to that league's strengths and weaknesses which he didnt even do very well at PSG.
Anyway, you have your GOAT & i have mine.
Messi without Iniesta and Xavi won what?
All La Liga prizes.
The league of technicality.
How many players have become worse after moving to different leagues or even the same league but different clubs?
Neymar to PSG
Greizmann to Barcelona
Di Maria to United
Sanchez to United
Torres to Chelsea
Pogba to United
Coutinho to Barcelona
Shevchenko to Chelsea
Zlatan to Barcelona
Hazard to Real Madrid
These were arguably the best player of their team or even league at the point they left by the way - just to put some perspective. I don't get why Messi gets this free ticket like he would have and could have played in every league in the world and still come out as the best player in world football.
I can go on and on - yet we are supposed to assume that Messi 'could have & would have done it'.
No sorry not for me. He never did it.
One player dominated every league in the world + 5 CL (playing in every final) + Euros whilst the other dominated La Liga + 3 CL (+1 for Rijkaard not playing in the final) & WC.
Maybe your GOAT could have conquered world football in another way playing for Chelsea or even Man City.
No, not for him.
I dont even think he would have scored his 91 goal season if he had played in his prime at Ligue 1 as we saw in his best season for PSG where he got under 20 (16 goals) which is absolutely nuts for a player like Messi who still won the Balon D'or so was clearly not past his prime. 16 goals in his best season at PSG
Anyway, you have your goat because of what you didnt see in Ronaldo (the extra technicality/assists, Balond D'ors & WC) whilst i have my Goat because of what i didn't see in Messi (him going to other top leagues and having to adapt to the differences around the world in both team mates and opposition and still coming out on top).
It's not like i don't see that Messi's goals and assists are of a completely different universe to Ronaldo. It literally makes my body get pins and needles because of how good Messi's plays are compared to Ronaldo -
But ultimately just as much as his play was from another universe they came all from just playing mostly in Spain for arguably the most well built Spanish team since the days of Cruyff that follows the same total philosophy to this date.
The players Ronaldo had to play with as team mates were much more different in style than the ones Messi got to play with. Yet at the same time the opposition that Ronaldo had to deal with was much more different of styles to the ones Messi had to deal with. The leagues were different in styles. Ronaldo got built like Robocop as he grew out his technicality to power in Portugal, the PL, La Liga, Serie A whilst Messi was the cute 'little magician' always at Barcelona.
The closest player to that i saw to CR7 was Ibrahimovic because he nearly conquered every league aswell but without the CL's and i dont find it shocking that he has a similair strength frame and body to Ronaldo for him to do that rather than being this 'little magician' just in Spain.
Also if Messi is your GOAT then so is Guardiola the best ever manager.
Doesnt matter about Barcelona bribing referees. Doesnt matter that he built the best teams ever possibly in La Liga or City. Doesnt matter the trebles. Doesn't matter that Guardiola at Bayern was similair to Messi's 'dip' at PSG.
Also name me the top 10 players at MLS & then name me the top 10 players in Saudi Arabia.
Dont even bother adding the ones that will be joining the league this year. If you think the MLS is a better league than Saudi then so be it. I won't convince you the same way you can't convince me.
God, what i would have done to have seen Messi outside of club de la total football and see him growing up in counter attacking teams like Jose's Inter Milan or Chelsea, even City under Mancini or even United under SAF who had f* all to do about possesion football.
It would have shut either me up or you up.
But still to this date - it's 'would have, could have' for Messi playing in different leagues.
One conquered world football by winning all trophies for one club, one league and International football.
The other conquered world football playing for different leagues, clubs, players, opposition and the Euro's which is a sh*t tonne harder than Copa America just to put perspective in to his National performances. Mbappe has already won one WC at the age of 25 but has still not won an Euro's.
What a mess of a thread...right now I dunno what it's worse, Messi fans not noticing that answering some bizarre points gives those points some sort of validation, people thinking that Messi has no ego or that being as narcissist as Cris is it's "just" being driven, the silly GOAT stuff, the obsession with goals and stats with not even the slightest context, the extreme romanticism of WCs that suddenly makes CR a dork and Messi the genius apparently wasn't already, the heart attack some will have to deal with if Erling or anyone of his style ends scoring zillions of goals and multiple titles and so on...
As a side note, I actually like that these two still play wherever they do it, would be bizarre when they do not do it anymore and I wonder if it's actually possible to have a real football chat with some here after some ultra biased wall texts or short "nah" arguments.
As a side note, I actually like that these two still play wherever they do it, would be bizarre when they do not do it anymore and I wonder if it's actually possible to have a real football chat with some here after some ultra biased wall texts or short "nah" arguments.
George Best?
Sheesh, I was wondering why the thread just kept getting bumped and thought something had happened. Something like he won a title or they played to a sell out crowd. But no, it's newbies firing themselves up with pro/contra Ronaldo ‘facts’.
I came to check what latest antic/tantrum he threw on the pitch, sadly disappointed.
Sorry Ronaldo is not the greatest player to play for United. If you go by what they contributed to the club he doesn't even make top 10. Ronaldo is arguably not even a United legend by the way he abandoned the club not once but twice. His best years were all spend in Madrid.
And I'm also not so sure we want to be associated with him. I know I'm quite fine if we didn't. His morals and what he stands for are far from what United would want to be associated with.
The greatest player to ever wear United's colours is a different question from the greatest player in the club's history. For example, prior to Messi, Maradona was the greatest player to ever play in a Barcelona team, but he was not Barca's greatest ever player.
He is the greatest player to play for United just like Messi is the greatest player to play for PSG.
I thought these posts would have either stopped - or at least died off substantially - now that they are both in retirement leagues.
I was wrong.
The lack of understanding in this post suggests you're a teenager or early 20's.
Do you believe C.Ronaldo would score at the same rate in Ronaldo's era?
Do you know what weighting of goals means?
What was the GPG ratio of the leagues and players of each era? Why is this important?
Do you know what context means?
Age almost 35, 2.56m header!
Phenomenon!
Phenomenon!
Don't agree! Sir Bobby is was and will forever be miles ahead of Ronaldo. I would say there is also a case for Law, Best, and Eric. Talent wise I would say the best ever was Best. Blown away at what he could do with the ball. Most naturally talented player we have ever had.
As for PSG is don't think so. By the time Messi went there he was below Mbappe.
However just my opinion you're intitled to yours. If you have a diffrent metric for greatness that's fine.
He is talking in General, that's why it doesn't matter if anyone consider that Messi already was below Mbappe at that stage in PSG.
The same for CR, it doesn't matter if someone consider his best version in Madrid.
Another thing, the one that the original post by Frosbite was implying is that if him consider a CR a GOAT, as a better player than Best, Charlton, Rooney and cia. At some point some of us mentioned that maybe it isn't written in stone that CR is better than Puskas, Di Stefano, etc, nor that these are universally better than CR either, but from that particulat point of view, he considers CR the best ever player that played for United.
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Ronaldo dominated all these leagues in Europe supposedly yet won about 2 la ligas in 9 years, the opposite of domination. Helped Juventus lose their first league in a decade too . Some domination.
Man, let's not be prejudice, even if he is a teen or very young, or even if he is not, it's his choice to focus only in scoring and BTW after me and other also pointed some similar points you are making, he clearly doesn't want to entertain such ideas either.
BTW, as a side note, let's not play this part either:
"Do you believe C.Ronaldo would score at the same rate in Ronaldo's era?", I trully think that people tend to extrapolate and come to conclusions with something that it's literally impossible to know (I've seen it in other threads, specially lately the last one you've made asking about Henry vs Mbappe).
For me it's just a BAD exercise of imagination and sadly we ALL end in "debates" were some of the conlusions tend to end in some sort of demerit or ovehype a certain period and such.
Like even nowadays with the whole farmer leagues, playing in EPL requieres being Hulk and Superman, etc...it never works that way, every player will face different enviroments as a whole (macro way) in every period and every player will face particular scenarios at some point of their carreer that end being most of times more important than the period itself (no matter this period might help to create such enviroment)...injuries, mental state, coach in charge, particular moment of the team, rules, relantionship with teammates, a sea of circumnstances that not few times are way more important than the sort of "Seria A in the 80's was the toughest League ever" and that kind of unnecessary exercises bar simple stating I'm more fond of that period or such player.
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I'm all for that, Georgie is the GOAT, this has got way to boring.
That's a very long sentence, dude.
Anyway, I don't disagree wildly with your basic point (as I take it).
But there are more or less objective factors that indicate:
a) that Serie A in the late 80s/early 90s was the strongest league in the world
and
b) that it's very unlikely that either Messi or Ronaldo (or anyone else) would have been able to score 50+ goals in that league over a season.
(Or anywhere near it, really.)
I genuinely thought the 'debate' was settled as soon as Messi won the World Cup, it already seemed slightly one sided before that. Seems I was wrong
There are so many factors that we tend to put in a simple basket.
This is a game that even with myself I can make a statement and later debunk it, and later debunk the debunk while having a very valid point in each case.
We all tend to overlook that every coin has two sides and this translates to every little aspect of life and in this particular case of football and players, the particular timing of evry player in a certain moment.
As a silly example, La Liga was treated as weak as hell (while it clearly wasn't at all) when those two where there. Yet nowadays with a suppose even weaker Leaguewhen we look at whom are the goalscorers, what are their numbers and for who they play, maybe it wasn't just a thing of a weaker league and playing for Real and Barca. Yet at the same time doing such thing like the one I've just did, in such a simple way, it would be a deeply flawed statement.
There are so many sides, angles, analysis of particular players in their diff periods that could be fun to talk about, not even debate or argue, but it never ends in such way. It ends in some sort of settle in stone statement that is far from be such thing.
It's hard also to actually talk about football and all its nuances in Forums where people kind of thrive in conflict.
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I genuinely thought the 'debate' was settled as soon as Messi won the World Cup, it already seemed slightly one sided before that. Seems I was wrong
Actually it should have never be.
There are actuall strict football sense atributes from both that are more suitable to preffer one or the other without even talk about WCs.
It would indeed. Because it would fail to take into account the nature and the (immense, rare) strength of the teams Messi and Ronaldo (in their prime) played for in that period.
Yep, no doubt.
Whenever Messi or Ronaldo enters the debate, it tends to be dominated by fanboys (under which umbrella term I sort little girls, old men, non-binary people and Ronaldo's mother).
Lately, whenever Haaland, G. Müller or Dixie Dean enters the debate, the same thing tends to happen - for that matter.
I guess we have to wait until both of those two have retired (and been retired for ten years) for things to calm down a bit.
But the evidence is categorical and irrefutable, so much so that the rules for the biggest tournament in the entire sporting world had to be changed post Italia ‘90, and the ‘90’s Serie A is an offshoot of that until it weakened and diluted at the turn of this century.
Just as there have been fallow and miserly eras and tactics for attacking and goal-scoring, there have been eras where goals are abundant, and at these times a number of players will be there or thereabouts a 1:1 GPG ratio, which, shockingly enough, we’ve just lived through, whilst in the 90’s and 80’s Serie A such a notion was preposterous.
You’re also measured against who and what you’re playing and scoring against, and for the millionth time since this silly notion came around, the discrepancy between productivity and output for NT vis-a-vis club side, where suddenly it’s not star-studded and overloaded with talent, brings goalscoring ratios to a balanced mean across the full spectrum, which would not be the case if these heralds where as claimed.
So in short, no, this stuff isn’t really up for debate, and the moment denigration starts it should be shot down with immediacy.
Hard to tell how impressive his season has been. On the one hand, he's 39 so to be scoring so many goals is pretty impressive. On the other hand, he's playing against semi-professional players.
Will be very interesting to see how he is utilized at the Euros, and how he fares. Hopefully his ego doesn't wind up firebombing a very strong Portugal squad.
Will be very interesting to see how he is utilized at the Euros, and how he fares. Hopefully his ego doesn't wind up firebombing a very strong Portugal squad.
Everything is up to debate, yet in any case what is more important it's that in the bigger debate if someone might like more or less R9 or CR and wants to compare them, the exercise of imagine a player in another enviroment/period shouldn't be taken that serious or worse, like a fact.
Every player individual carreer was what it was and f we just play mind games with different scenarios, everything changes, the simple alteration of putting Aguero instead of Crespo in the very same play in the 90's it's only just an imagination excercise.
With just watching a player in their real moments in their respective periods, with their respective styles and atributes we can debate and end prefferimg one above the other, feel that both are equal or dislike both...we should not fall in the: Kempes/Aguero,/Tevez wouldn't have scored as much as Bati in Italy in the 90's or whatever similar conclusion we might elaborate.
Every Era/Period we are analyzing it's with the Monday Paper and it was what it was, but we can never know if Cuper would have get along better with Messi than R9 or even worse and how would that relantionship would have affected the formation and tactics of that team and so on.
What would have happened if instead of Cuper, Menotti was coaching Inter and an endless exercise of "what ifs"
We have tons of examples everyday and in the past of very particular situations that could have sent many players in a very diff path.
Mascherano was in the bench with Pardew minutes to go back to River, it took Rafa lots of effort to convince him to go to Liverpool.
Xavi was tired, pissed, in the brink of leaving Barca.
What would have happened if Rikjaard kept in charge instead of Pep?...and so on, you get the gist of it.
I'm not saying that we should not take notice of every period and their global tendencies, their particular players, etc...but every exercise we try to show as a fact when we play this imaginary games, like the one I've mentioned of Kempes and cia in the 90's, it's flawed from its very origin.
Back on every period tendencies, under a certain enviroment, in other words: the macro enviroment.
It's more important to analyze a player and his perfomances as a whole, in that REAL period.
We can use that to understand better why he had a determinated style and how this style was affected by the ideas of a certain coach, general tendencies and lots of stuff in between.
I remember right now an excellent goal by Crespo doing a sombrero on Maldini and from the way some people treat periods, that simple fact of facing Maldini and making that play/goal almost instantly makes him more gifted technically than Aguero, while clearly he wasn't at all.
Yet at the same time, we don't fecking know if Aguero would have even reach that ball or even try that sombrero if some how we can replace Crespo with in that particular situation.
.
We can speculate how a player might have played in a certain period? sure, we can determinate which Period had more teams playing more offensivly, with more or less possesion footbal, being more defensive oriented, etc. We can even analyze how a rule can affect the game or even a certain role like the one of keepers not being allowed to grab it with their hands from a pass of a teammate and take in acccount all these to understand the game of any player under his particular enviroment, of course...but this means that we can later come to a conclusion that the whole Messi in the 60's would have scored 3 goals or 300, it's fecking silly. It's simplisitc, it opens the door to the obnoxious "my league/league is 35 better than yours" and so on.
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It's impressive nonetheless.
Being that old, scoring that much, being driven like he is, it's still impressive.
Does this mean that people cannot feel silly some of his declarations, or be annoyed by some of the hyperboles display by certain fans, nah, that it's also in the table.Yet what he is doing it's impressive and at his age even more.
In a strict football sense to analyse how does his game, style demands and affect the course of his team, it's another matter.
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I believe "the Serie A in the 90's" argument is used in favour of R9 when comparing him to current players which needs some context.
Firstly, while I agree that Serie A during R9's time was, even compared to today's Premier league, a stronge league. But that doesn't mean it was a difficult league to score in. For instance in 97/98, during Ronaldo's first and only truly injury free season in Serie A, 6 players scored 20+ goals and the average goals scored per game was 2.78 which similar to most seasons in the Premier league and la liga. The 80's and early 90's serie A was a different ball game all together.
So, I do believe Cristiano would score alot (but not 50/ season) in that era's serie A because regardless of what his fanboys will have one believe, the truth is that his entire game even during his prime at Real Madrid (2009 to 2015) was geared towards scoring. His other contributions were far far behind that aspect of his game.
Secondly. A player like R9 is not judged by statistics alone. Beirhoff scored more goals than R9 in 97/98. Does that mean he was better? Nope, not even close. Reason is R9 had far more to his game than scoring and when it came to scoring had a unique ability to be able to create his own goals consistently like very few before (Maradona, Pele) and truly only one (Messi) after him.
And my second point is where I base my judgement on players; R9 before injury was better than any version of Cristiano. But, Cristiano is greater than Ronaldo for his longevity and success at club level.
When it comes to who is the better footballer there really shouldn't be a debate. It has always been obvious unless you are biased which would be expected on this forum. Ronaldo has done well with the stats and longevity to be mentioned in the same sentence. But, he has always been the Inferior footballer.
I clocked that too, almost instantly. It has to be him, he was the only guy that would spend his life sat here writing countless lengthy dissertations explaining why Ronaldo was the GOAT.
I don't think he ever was a typical playmaker for sure. But I mean, what really defines who is a playmaker and who isn't? As you said, one good pass here and there doesn't cut it, so we do agree there.
I watched Cristiano create plays by the dozens, entirely by himself, in United. Like, an attack usually amounts to a team going through the various offensive phases, reorganization, build up play, progressive passes, reaching the area around the box to then put in a final pass for a shot. I'd watch him grab a ball outside his own area and 20 seconds later he'd have pretty much gotten to a place in the field where he was laying the ball in a very dangerous area to a teammate in a shooting position. He just did it in 20 seconds, erasing multiple defensive lines and completely breaking them apart in the blink of an eye.
In 2024 I have to watch United do sideways passes for 1 minute in the midfield cause no one knows how to break apart defensive lines.
And yes, he did take advantage of his pace for doing what I describe. But not only that, he combined excelently, with not only a good level of through passes, one touch passes, close range link up, but with a degree of variety that wasn't easy to find in another player (Ronaldinho was certainly up there in this regard at the time).
If I hadn't seen it live, I'd be inclined to believe he only did "a good pass here and there". But I saw it. And I heard the crowd. Everytime he grabbed the ball the stadium would roar, that's how dangerous he was, that how good and how fast he could build plays when he got the ball on his own half, and many times further up the pitch.
The thing is, the way he played, isn't it feasible to believe he was not only building, but directing the plays? Is that a playmaker, or not?
In any case, I absolutely hate comparing Cristiano to other playmakers (not a typical one as I said). I do think he was one, but I don't think he was as good as Xavi, Iniesta, and certainly not as good as Messi. Messi probably tops that chart for me.
It's okay to disagree, I respect you see it different than me.
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We should not underestimate the influence that Sir Alex had on Ronaldo. Sir Alex gave him number 7, Sir Alex made him abandon his "latin tricks", Sir Alex made him focus on goals.
And, of course, Sir Alex always praises Ronaldo's unbelievable work ethic. At the end of this video, Sir Alex says that Ronaldo told him he will stop playing football at 35 and Sir Alex told him no, no, no, Giggs was playing at 41, you can do it too! If Ronaldo plays till 43 and gets to 1000 goals, I am sure that Sir Alex will be very happy for him, and for the advice he gave!
And, of course, Sir Alex always praises Ronaldo's unbelievable work ethic. At the end of this video, Sir Alex says that Ronaldo told him he will stop playing football at 35 and Sir Alex told him no, no, no, Giggs was playing at 41, you can do it too! If Ronaldo plays till 43 and gets to 1000 goals, I am sure that Sir Alex will be very happy for him, and for the advice he gave!
A pity he didn't play under Sir Alex longer. You can clearly see how much of an influence SAF had on his ego.
Ronaldo was always a bit of an egotistical twat, but Sir Alex kept him in line while he was here (mostly). His ego ballooned out of control once he left SAF's fatherly influence and went to Madrid.
Ronaldo was always a bit of an egotistical twat, but Sir Alex kept him in line while he was here (mostly). His ego ballooned out of control once he left SAF's fatherly influence and went to Madrid.
Sir Alex still talks about Ronaldo with the outmost respect, as a top athlete. And he visits him at his house, he says so on the video above. They still have a good relationship with each other.
But the truth is that most top athletes (or actually, people who are on the top of any field and are extremely rich) ... are assholes.