gajender
Full Member
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- May 7, 2016
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Has Option for another year won't be cheap.Mbuemo. Fast, can drible, can cross, penalty taker, can play winger and number 10. On top of that, just turned 25. Contract expires 2026.
Has Option for another year won't be cheap.Mbuemo. Fast, can drible, can cross, penalty taker, can play winger and number 10. On top of that, just turned 25. Contract expires 2026.
rather have fergusonDo posters still want Wharton for 50-100mil or Ferguson for 80mil?
For half the price of what some were saying last season.rather have ferguson
It doesn't say 'don't sign from the EPL' though. It just says that EPL experience by itself shouldn't be an argument for or against a player.It can't be nonsense. It's at the very least an indicator.
I'm just skeptical of that claim. The top 4 club that's probably signed more PL proven players than any other says ignore Premier League proven.
And as others have said, it's worked brilliantly for them.
Antony was a stupid transfer no matter how you look at it, Yoro is a world-class potential talent, and Casemiro was another stupid transfer but had the pedigree.Look at what we've just paid for Casemiro, Yoro and Antony.
Wherever we shop, it isn't cheap.
Maybe the Scandinavian countries. You can get a decent deal there.
The continent being cheaper idea went out the window a while ago.
(e.g., we picked off Tottenham's best central midfielder for £15 million and one of the biggest talents in the history of English football for just £30 million)
True. But both had a similar amount of experience in the PL as you would expect from a player at 23-24. They were not a AWB with less than 3000 minutes.Sterling, Stones,
The irony of the OP is that none of those four players were "homegrown", all four were signed from other clubs.
Rayan Ait-Nouri - signed for £9.8m from Angers
Jarred Branthwaite - signed from Carlisle for £500K
Murillo - signed from Corinthians for £12m
Matheus Cunha - signed from Atletico Madrid for £35m
Not sure what point is being made here, to be honest. We never stopped being interested in Premier League proven players in the 23—26 age group. Things simply haven't worked out for us on that front, vis-à-vis certain other clubs, for a myriad reasons. At any rate, Manchester City is the absolute benchmark of Premier League football for the last decade-ish. We should not follow any particular club's example and we shouldn't inorganically mimic any particular club's approach (a club like Manchester United, with its scale and pedigree, should do things its own way, in accordance with its own well-considered and well-implemented institutional principles), but for comparison's sake and from what I can tell, in the post-Ferguson era, we've signed as many Premier League proven players in the 23—26 age group as them...
From a superficial perspective, our primary issue is not having a consistent and robust intitutional vision with regard to the actual sporting side of things, and improper or unfortunate decision-making in the uppermost echelons of the club (i.e., the Glazers). Which has a structural, trickle-down effect, as regards recruitment, on the whole. From the Premier League and from abroad, in terms of top brass executives, players, coaches, analysts and other staff — we've promoted and acquired the wrong people, fostered a dysfunctional culture, and made improper or unfortunate choices time and again (or sometimes made the right choices in the wrong moment or thrust them into the wrong environment).
- Manchester City: Bony, Delph, Aké, Grealish (De Bruyne had Premier League experience but was not Premier League proven, and Sterling, Stones, Mahrez, Walker, Grealish, Roberts, Kovačić, Phillips were younger than 23 or older than 26 at the time of signing.)
- Manchester United: Mata, Fellaini, Schneiderlin, Lukaku, Maguire (Pogba had Premier League experience but was not Premier League proven, and Sánchez, Matić, Shaw, Wan-Bissaka, Grant, Eriksen, Evans were younger than 23 or older than 26 at the time of signing.)
Given our luck, we probably would have signed Salah and jeopardized his potential by playing him with a poacher style No. 9, a No. 10 who monopolizes all risk-taking and an uncreative wide forward on the left flank in an incoherently constructed attack. We've been stuck in a seemingly endless rut, permeating practically every segment of the club, and much of what could have gone wrong has gone wrong (from surrending our position as the standard bearers of Premier League football, to Guardiola and Klopp joining our rivals and watching some of the best players in the world follow suit), and somehow need to claw our way back to the top (hopefully the change starts now, with Berrada, Amorim and company.)
In the present and in the future, Manchester United should strive to sign the best players and talents, with the right mentality and application and technique and athleticism (with a bigger emphasis on data than managerial connections), from all over while attempting to, as much as practically possible, extract good value for money. Full stop. Statistically speaking, some of them are bound to be Premier League proven given the sheer strength of the league in the contemporary period, no doubt about that. And others are going to be from La Liga, Serie A, Bundesliga, Ligue 1 and beyond.
P.S. What Ferguson did during his tenure should have little bearing on our recruitment strategy. It was a different time and Premier League environment; one might even argue that, in some remote sense, we were to the Premier League what Bayern Munich is to the Bundesliga. We were the dominant leaders of the pack and trusted guarantors of success, with competition mostly being swept away, Fergie's own allure was overwhelming with lots of highly talented players gravitating towards him, we could cannibalize other clubs in the manner that is no longer possible (e.g., we picked off Tottenham's best central midfielder for £15 million and one of the biggest talents in the history of English football for just £30 million), and so forth. Same league, but two very different realities — and crucially, Manchester United of the 1990s and 2000s is not the Manchester United of the 2020s.
Being interested in ≠ who we've managed to sign when push's come to shove, to be fair.Trying to think in the last 5 years or so who we've signed in that bracket if we haven't stopped. Mount and Maguire?
Declan Rice has been linked with a number of clubs in recent weeks, including Manchester United and Arsenal. A report from The Athletic claims that the Red Devils will not be able to afford him if the asking price remains around £100 million.
Grealish was targeted by former Manchester United manager Ole Gunnar Solskjaer during the summer transfer window last year, but the playmaker opted to stay at Villa Park and signed a new long-term contract until 2025. "I was really close to going, but nothing happened in the end," he told the Daily Telegraph. "We played United in a pre-season game on Saturday and I wasn't supposed to play in a cup game at Burton. "But after the United game I said to Christian Purslow [Aston Villa's chief executive] and my agent 'if I'm not leaving, I'll sign my new contract'.
Liverpool and Manchester United are understood to be among clubs interested in signing the Argentinian World Cup winner ahead of the summer transfer window. The Athletic reported last week that the contract signed by Mac Allister in October until 2025, with the option of a further year for Brighton, contains a mechanism to help facilitate a move for the midfielder with a say for the club in the outcome.
Being interested in ≠ who we've managed to sign when push's come to shove, to be fair.
For whatever reason(s), some of which were in our control and some of which were out our control: Glazers not releasing the money for specific moves, timing not being in our favor, in-situ manager prefering someone else and maybe being in disagreement with scouts, player in question being more drawn to another club and sporting project, et cetera.
At various points over the last 5 years, we have considered quite a few Premier League players in the 23—26 age group, including Declan Rice, Jack Grealish, David Raya and the likes, so we definitely haven't decided to ignore that profile.
Two questions:
1. Are there any statistical evidence that players from this league do better than players overseas? I mean, the points about tempo, physicality and adaption make sense, but can they be backed up?
2. Do we have a world class scouting department that use data analytics like other modern clubs? I have just assumed so, but I have no idea.
Well I am clearly missing the point then, because none of those four players were signed from other PL clubs and only one is British.It is not irony. It is the point.
It's been far from perfect but if we're to pick the better signings since Fergie the majority would be from the Prem.
Bruno is the best but after him, I'd say it's Prem proven players who've given us most.
People mock Maguire and AWB but they immediately improved us. Compare to Rojo, Darmian, Lindelof, Bailly etc.
Using Liverpool as an example, we need to build a solid base as they did with Robertson, Milner etc before adding the expensive cherry on top.The irony of the OP is that none of those four players were "homegrown", all four were signed from other clubs.
Rayan Ait-Nouri - signed for £9.8m from Angers
Jarred Branthwaite - signed from Carlisle for £500K
Murillo - signed from Corinthians for £12m
Matheus Cunha - signed from Atletico Madrid for £35m
So the answer is not to focus on signing from PL teams necessarily, its to get better at scouting and take more calculated gambles.
For two decades, the top two or three teams could poach the best players from the likes of Tottenham, Newcastle, West Ham etc...such was their financial advantage. This led to United in particular becoming incredibly lazy with our scouting - and to be honest, it made a degree of sense. Why gamble on unknown players when we could let others take the risk and poach the best few?
Over the last decade, we have really failed to wise up and understand the change in dynamic. We have famously missed out on so many big talents for nominal fees...Martinelli, Caicedo and Duran, for a combined £15m, for a start.
Personally, I don't really ever want to see us spend £50m+ on a player again, unless we know, without doubt, that were signing a "final piece of the jigsaw"-type, like when Liverpool signed Van Dijk, or Arsenal with Rice.
There's really no need to do it. There aren't 'just' 20 or 30 elite footballers around the World. Many players can be elite, in the right system, with the right coach, in the right team.
My view - sign more players, sign cheaper players. Take more gambles. Fail faster and move them on quickly when it doesn't work. Obviously move forward with the lads that do work out, rinse repeat until you have a very strong squad...and only then think about the one of two "must-have" players who would take the team from very good to elite.
Well I am clearly missing the point then, because none of those four players were signed from other PL clubs and only one is British.
I thought the point of the OP was to advise a "buy PL proven quality players" but if we were to pursue that strategy, we would now be paying £200m for four players who were bought for under £60m.
The price difference is insane though. Maguire and AWB cost £130m.
Darmian, Dalot, Mazraoui & Malacia cost around £60m vs AWB for £55m. That’s four shots at getting it right or a deeper squad for the same investment.
The likes of De Ligt, Bailly, Lindelof, Rojo & Varane all cost under £40m. Rojo was £16m. That’s at least two cracks at getting it right for one Maguire.
Transfer strategy should involve all profiles of player. Primarily younger players who are about the enter their prime but also at the right time a player at their peak. Rooney, Ronaldo, Ferdinand but also an RVP now and again.
In general there is still some value in the market.
- outside of the top 5 leagues in places like Portugal, Austria, Sweden, Denmark you can find young player with high potential. These are the kinds of signings red bull make or Brighton.
- expiring contracts or down to the final two years
- players with release clauses
- relegated teams across Europe & PL
Yes. Both are worth it.Do posters still want Wharton for 50-100mil or Ferguson for 80mil?
And don't forget:The opposite (Or not)
- Sign a long-term problem
- Sign "no experience"
- Sign "he doesn’t know the league"
- Sign suitable for style
- Sign "we can’t fix him".
There's nothing wrong with signing a Malacia for £12m though at all. The "wrong" thing, is to cling on to them and hope they "come good", rather than ship them out after 6-12 months when they don't hit the level required.Using Liverpool as an example, we need to build a solid base as they did with Robertson, Milner etc before adding the expensive cherry on top.
The problem is that PL players aren’t gonna cost less than 30m, and players like Malacia cost 12m. It’s still going to be expensive to raise our base level
Yes, and that's the key point isn't it...you used to be able to do that, now you can't.These clubs have signed a bunch of players. Very few of them look very good in the PL. It is hard, and time consuming, to find a new Branthwaite from League One. It would probably entail signing twenty players where nineteen fail.
The point is using other PL-clubs to find out what players are actually good in the PL.
Yes, and that's the key point isn't it...you used to be able to do that, now you can't.