Could we please start investing in PL-proven talents again?

[Giggsy13]

Napoli wanted £150m for Osimhen, when we bought Hojlund as he was coming off a great season that year after helping them win the league.

Yet he went to Galatasaray on loan. There is something called negotiation and if a club is good at it they can see thru the absolute bollocks and nonsense clubs like Napoli put out there to get a deal done, which would’ve been well below £150 million. The club screwed up with Hojlund and overpaid on an unproven asset who isn’t producing.

 

[Lemoor]

Could it be he has now developed to his potential, 25 is relatively young and our fanbase is often saying we should give our youngsters time to develop into their mid 20's, it's also been two seasons in a row now that he has delivered for a lower table side, the most impressive thing about him is his physicality, he's built for the epl, how many players in our current side can you day that about, even hojlund is a relative pushover for defenders.

It's possible that this is just his "real level" that started this season, but it's also possible that a massive xG overperformance might mean that it's just a purple patch for him that is not going to last into next season and there is no rule that performing for a lower table side means same quality of performances for a better side. If it's "just" the case of physicality then obviously cutting losses on players before they enter their physical peak would be ridiculously short-sighted.

 

[Marwood]

Totally agree. It really doesn't matter if they are EPL proven, statistics should be able to tell how fast is the player, how high he jumps, how many times he is physically brush off, how many times he loses a ball. I pretty sure that there are a few championship player that can make a step up. I would make sure our scout are watching the games to identify 20-23 yo players that meet our profile. United needs to total revamp, we don't need another 5-6 Portuguese players because our manager is from Portugal. Stop buying players from league that the manager comes from. Antony, Martinez, Malacia, Onana, Hoijund, Zirkzee are players that I haven't even heard of and United bought because manager has worked with them before. They don't even have what it takes to play in EPL and yet we spent millions in transfer. Something is seriously wrong with the hierarchy of this club. Time for a reset!

But that can be very much linked to the standard of opposition right?

 

[tomaldinho1]

Turns out we had a decent PL player in Elanga and we let him go to Forest.

Think all the academy guys we sold were to free up the funds we spent given they’re changing (maybe it’s now changed) how academy graduates affect PSR.

I don’t know why we didn’t keep Mengi and Elanga purely as squad options myself, surely their fees were not so amazing to be needed. The former is not amazing but we had no CBs last season and Elanga is a limited but extremely useful attacker who, ironically, would be a great WB in my opinion.

 

[Marwood]

This is what I don't get. People are saying that he'd be too expensive because he's at an English club.

We've signed Hojlund for 70, Sancho for 80, Antony for 80. We overspend regardless of where the player plays. We signed Hojlund after one season and 32 appearances in serie A for 70 mill.

I keep pointing out the same. Even Yoro, £50 million after just 40 senior appearances.

Martinez, was it over £50 million? He has his plus points bit for a CB that's obviously not much in the air and one paced. Is that a good fee?

 

[Marwood]

Gibbs-white is another one I think could be a starter for a top 6 side and he is still only 24, as well as being physically able to handle the epl

Absolutely he should be on the list. Him and Cunha for the 10 spots.

People will moan "that's £110 million!"

We'll just spend the same amount on kids from Europe who've barely kicked a ball.

 

[marcus agrippa]

I keep pointing out the same. Even Yoro, £50 million after just 40 senior appearances.

Martinez, was it over £50 million? He has his plus points bit for a CB that's obviously not much in the air and one paced. Is that a good fee?

Yoro for 50 or Branthwaite for 80?

 

[Marwood]

Yoro for 50 or Branthwaite for 80?

But we haven't paid £80 million for Branthwaite. Nobody has and nobody will. Until he moves we can't compare amounts.

 

[marcus agrippa]

But we haven't paid £80 million for Branthwaite. Nobody has and nobody will. Until he moves we can't compare amounts.

Think I misread the point of your post. My bad.

Just wanted to say that Everton wanted that for Branthwaite, so PL clubs can afford to be unreasonable re: asking price. We can quote reasonable prices on here, but as soon as clubs know United are in for their player, there's an extra couple million tacked on. We have some ways to go to recover our reputation in the industry, and that should be borne in mind.

 

[JE-365]

There are some good options:

I think Gibbs-White will suit Amorim’s no 10 and I think Dwight McNeil will suit Amorim’s wingback.

If we want to splash more than £100m, then go for Isak. A top class striker who would walk in any top teams right now.

I’m not sure if Mbuemo will fit the RWB role, not sure about no 10 because he looks better in the wide area but he played as second striker with Toney couple years ago so he probably can play that no 10 role. He’s quality player. Can score, can pass, can dribble, can cross, good closed control, and can hold the ball very well with defenders behind his back.

Cunha and Ait Nouri play in similar formation 3421.

Damsgaard isn’t proven enough but I think he will suit Amorim’s no 10. He has good season so far.

Kudus & Eze are good player. But I think Gibbs-White suits more because he’s more playmaker that provide assists/services to his striker than Kudus & Eze.

 

[Bojan11]

Yet he went to Galatasaray on loan. There is something called negotiation and if a club is good at it they can see thru the absolute bollocks and nonsense clubs like Napoli put out there to get a deal done, which would’ve been well below £150 million. The club screwed up with Hojlund and overpaid on an unproven asset who isn’t producing.

You have your years confused. The year he was coming off a great season, he didn’t go to Gala on loan. He went there on loan because Chelsea refused to pay the wages he was on at Napoli; the Saudi club chose Toney over him, and Conte wanted him gone because he had just signed Lukaku. So the only alternative was Galatasaray because the Turkish transfer window closed later.

 

[Shaw's Shank Redemption]

Gibbs white is too central to play as one of the AM's imo.

Its like when Bruno plays as one of the AM's vs Amad - one can cut in, dribble, pass or cross fluently but Bruno isnt as fluent as a winger/LAM to provide the service needed in that role.

Bruno for me has looked the best when playing as a CM next to Ugarte.

Ive always thought that Gibbs white would be a great CM for a top club, he has physicality, energy, skill, defensive capacity and creativity to be an absolute beast centrally a bit deeper.

Gibbs White - Ugarte
​

Would be a beautiful balanced CM with the mix of everything in midfield and i think Gibbs White can play a box to box role at a top club and would prefer him to Ederson. We need to add some creativity to our midfield but ive always found it hard to find the right player for Amorim because a deep lying playmaker isnt usually very aggresive with and without the ball. Gibbs white though ticks all those boxes giving us an element of creativity but an element of aggresion in midfield also (this is something Mainoo seems to be struggling with atm).

However, i used to read all these old football books as a youngster and heard about how Nottingham Forest being great in European Football and i have a soft spot for them to achieve those things again even if that is very unlikely. Soon as that ship sails though, Gibbs White should be targeted.

Its been so obvious he has been good for a long time now but we always seem to target players too late.

​

 

[andersj]

Ive always thought that Gibbs white would be a great CM for a top club, he has physicality, energy, skill, defensive capacity and creativity to be an absolute beast centrally a bit deeper.

I think he would be a great option both as an eight and as a ten in the current setup. Would cost a lot, but suit us very, very well. Same with Cunha.

 

[Lentwood]

I watched Bilal El Khannouss closely yesterday and thought he was absolutely fantastic. Looked the best player on the pitch...two footed, good eye for a pass, always made the right decision, always looked to have time.

Couldn't believe it when I googled him and he was only 20. We should be all over him and Tyler Dibling when Leicester and Southampton are relegated.

 

[Marwood]

I watched Bilal El Khannouss closely yesterday and thought he was absolutely fantastic. Looked the best player on the pitch...two footed, good eye for a pass, always made the right decision, always looked to have time.

Couldn't believe it when I googled him and he was only 20. We should be all over him and Tyler Dibling when Leicester and Southampton are relegated.

We're struggling for goals. Those two players have seven senior goals between them.

Amorim will end up getting sacked before they're anywhere near ready.

In following the club for over 30 years I can't think of a more inappropriate time to add young, unproven players.

 

[KStandBarmyArmy1993]

Think all the academy guys we sold were to free up the funds we spent given they’re changing (maybe it’s now changed) how academy graduates affect PSR.

I don’t know why we didn’t keep Mengi and Elanga purely as squad options myself, surely their fees were not so amazing to be needed. The former is not amazing but we had no CBs last season and Elanga is a limited but extremely useful attacker who, ironically, would be a great WB in my opinion.

Elanga would have be having the same issues as our other players now.

He went to a Forest side that's playing with a lot more freedom because the entire club's confidence hasn't been destroyed.

 

[Lentwood]

We're struggling for goals. Those two players have seven senior goals between them.

Amorim will end up getting sacked before they're anywhere near ready.

In following the club for over 30 years I can't think of a more inappropriate time to add young, unproven players.

Dibling will take time for sure but El Khannous stood out a mile yesterday against City. Was with my Liverpool supporting mate who said he was Leicester's best player against them the week before.

Whatever we do, the answer is not to start signing middling players like Gyokeres or Solanke because we think they're ready now. We should still be focusing on signing elite talents at a point in their career they can be moulded into elite footballers.

And I don't buy this "Amorim will be sacked" narrative that's developing. People make out like we don't give managers time which is absolute nonsense. We have given managers too much time if anything.

 

[Marwood]

Dibling will take time for sure but El Khannous stood out a mile yesterday against City. Was with my Liverpool supporting mate who said he was Leicester's best player against them the week before.

Whatever we do, the answer is not to start signing middling players like Gyokeres or Solanke because we think they're ready now. We should still be focusing on signing elite talents at a point in their career they can be moulded into elite footballers.

And I don't buy this "Amorim will be sacked" narrative that's developing. People make out like we don't give managers time which is absolute nonsense. We have given managers too much time if anything.

Amorim will get a couple of seasons but if you have a forward line where the oldest is 23 or something it'll take at least that for them to be good enough.

I just think you have to give a manager a fighting chance. We can't score goals so don't add players who have no record of scoring goals. That seems simple to me.

We could get Khannous but that would have to be it as far as young players go. The rest need to be at their best from day one.

Spending tens of millions on uproven 18 yeard olds can't happen right now. In two or three seasons if everything is going well, go for it then.

How much would those two be combined? £70 million? Just spend that on one proven 23 to 26 year old. Just go get Cunha instead.

 

[Roboc7]

I watched Bilal El Khannouss closely yesterday and thought he was absolutely fantastic. Looked the best player on the pitch...two footed, good eye for a pass, always made the right decision, always looked to have time.

Couldn't believe it when I googled him and he was only 20. We should be all over him and Tyler Dibling when Leicester and Southampton are relegated.

I’d gladly take both of those at Utd, lots of potential and probably not too expensive when both teams likely get relegated. They are the sort of players that if they move to another Premier League team become too expensive.

If we are going to sign more Premier League players we need to get better at the timing of when we sign them.

Maguire is perfect example as soon as he joined Leicester we never should have considered him because the price was ridiculous, time to buy him was when he left Hull. Someone like Gibbs-White is another example of someone we have missed the boat on.

We are in a position where we can and need to develop some younger players so we can’t be buying at the top of the market all the time.

 

[Craig Ward]

But we haven't paid £80 million for Branthwaite. Nobody has and nobody will. Until he moves we can't compare amounts.

That's not the point. Both were CB targets on our radar. We had a price point.

We met it with Yoro and not with Brainthwaite. So we signed Yoro, which makes sense

 

[Craig Ward]

I keep pointing out the same. Even Yoro, £50 million after just 40 senior appearances.

Martinez, was it over £50 million? He has his plus points bit for a CB that's obviously not much in the air and one paced. Is that a good fee?

I think about 50Mil for a half decent CB is the going rate.......

 

[Marwood]

That's not the point. Both were CB targets on our radar. We had a price point.

We met it with Yoro and not with Brainthwaite. So we signed Yoro, which makes sense

Well Branthwaite shouldn't really be in the discussion either. He's also too young, too inexperienced. We haven't signed him, haven't offered anywhere near £80 million. It's a figure that only exists in fans heads. So there's no comparison to be made there.

The question should be for the Yoro £50 million could we have got a CB in or close to his best years who can come in and play right away.

I barely watch football outside of United but the answer must be yes. That's what we should have done.

 

[Craig Ward]

Think all the academy guys we sold were to free up the funds we spent given they’re changing (maybe it’s now changed) how academy graduates affect PSR.

I don’t know why we didn’t keep Mengi and Elanga purely as squad options myself, surely their fees were not so amazing to be needed. The former is not amazing but we had no CBs last season and Elanga is a limited but extremely useful attacker who, ironically, would be a great WB in my opinion.

Mengi was never going to cut it here realistically so we sold so he could advance his career elsewhere - correct move

Elanga i think we would have kept but he wanted regular assured game time. The move made sense for both parties. I dont think he's excelled at Forest, but has proved to be a decent player.

 

[SparcMac]

I keep pointing out the same. Even Yoro, £50 million after just 40 senior appearances.

Martinez, was it over £50 million? He has his plus points bit for a CB that's obviously not much in the air and one paced. Is that a good fee?

Max Kilman went for 40m+

Antonio Silva is quoted 120m.

And I can continue. All the CB's City have bought in past 7 years, none of them came for peanuts.

 

[tomaldinho1]

Elanga would have be having the same issues as our other players now.

He went to a Forest side that's playing with a lot more freedom because the entire club's confidence hasn't been destroyed.

Freedom isn’t really the right word but it’s a setup that suits his and Odoi’s game. It’s a basic setup but as it’s proving, it’s effective. They’ll slowly drop away in my opinion but I remember he was the one player Ragnick singled out as having the right attitude/workrate which probably says as much about everyone else than it does him.

 

[Marwood]

Max Kilman went for 40m+

Antonio Silva is quoted 120m.

And I can continue. All the CB's City have bought in past 7 years, none of them came for peanuts.

The aim isn't to get players for peanuts. It's not happening, wherever we sign players from. That can be forgotten.

There's a thing on this forum, a kind of obsession with youth. Youth that cost nothing. I see people talking about Amass, Dibling, Obi Martin etc.

Even now we've got posters saying let's bring youth through at a time when we're massively struggling. In part because we have a bunch of players too young in the first XI. It'd be adding fuel to the fire.

Yeah we're United, we have a strong history of young players coming through.

But you can't always rigidly stick to an ideology. Like when you're 14th with a new manager. Now isn't the time for 18 year olds. It's the worst possible time in fact.

We need to stop messing about as a club trying to be clever. It isn't working. Just do the obvious. Get players who are ready to hit the ground running and preferably proven in this league.

 

[Unam333]

Premier League proven equals expensive and higher fees. Our scouting network abroad should do a better job of identifying players.
All other clubs can do it, why not us?

 

[andersj]

Max Kilman went for 40m+

Antonio Silva is quoted 120m.

And I can continue. All the CB's City have bought in past 7 years, none of them came for peanuts.

Konate was £36 mill. Pau Torres was £32 mill. Gabriel at Arsenal was £27 mill. Reasonable wages too. All of them players we were linked to and who was much talked about in here.

I would also argue they were «proven» with close to 5000 minutes each or more for clubs in top five leagues.

Man Utd have a tendency to prefer players that cost alot.

 

[Pogue Mahone]

The aim isn't to get players for peanuts. It's not happening, wherever we sign players from. That can be forgotten.

There's a thing on this forum, a kind of obsession with youth. Youth that cost nothing. I see people talking about Amass, Dibling, Obi Martin etc.

Even now we've got posters saying let's bring youth through at a time when we're massively struggling. In part because we have a bunch of players too young in the first XI. It'd be adding fuel to the fire.

Yeah we're United, we have a strong history of young players coming through.

But you can't always rigidly stick to an ideology. Like when you're 14th with a new manager. Now isn't the time for 18 year olds. It's the worst possible time in fact.

We need to stop messing about as a club trying to be clever. It isn't working. Just do the obvious. Get players who are ready to hit the ground running and preferably proven in this league.

100% this. Especially when you look at the profile of players we’re trying to upgrade/replace. Casemiro, Rashford, Eriksen and Shaw are all either in their peak of just past it. Replacing them with youth or potential will set us back years. A decision that’s compounded by so many other important positions in the squad already filled with “potential”

 

[Steve 007]

I can’t see how we can invest in anybody.

£700 million in debt.

No champions league next year and unlikely any European football at all.

Operating loss 3 years on the bounce.

Net losses of £370 million over 5 years.

A stadium that needs rebuilt or redeveloped.

If we are to follow PSR surely we can’t spend a penny.

Anyone know how we can keep spending? Chelsea have done it.

 

[hellhunter]

I can’t see how we can invest in anybody.

£700 million in debt.

No champions league next year and unlikely any European football at all.

Operating loss 3 years on the bounce.

Net losses of £370 million over 5 years.

A stadium that needs rebuilt or redeveloped.

If we are to follow PSR surely we can’t spend a penny.

Anyone know how we can keep spending? Chelsea have done it.

Unless I'm mistaken, infrastructure cost like the stadium doesn't count towards PSR or FFP, right?

 

[Steve 007]

Unless I'm mistaken, infrastructure cost like the stadium doesn't count towards PSR or FFP, right?

Seems you are correct:

Academies, women’s teams and infrastructure don’t count and owners can bear the brunt of 100million according to this article.

https://www.skysports.com/amp/footb...ns-are-there-on-clubs-spending-what-they-want

 

[Apokalips]

Konate was £36 mill. Pau Torres was £32 mill. Gabriel at Arsenal was £27 mill. Reasonable wages too. All of them players we were linked to and who was much talked about in here.

I would also argue they were «proven» with close to 5000 minutes each or more for clubs in top five leagues.

Man Utd have a tendency to prefer players that cost alot.

Exactly, most of these guys who are "PL Proven" were not born that way, a club in the league brought them in from elsewhere and they performed...pretty simple.

Look at the best players to have played in the league and they tend to have come in from overseas, by focusing on "PL Proven" only then we end up with less bang for our buck and less top level quality. Mount is "PL Proven" - let's sign more of those, shall we? Grealish is "PL proven" and is a 100m flop. Just because fans say "let's sign Cunha for 60m", doesn't mean it is realistic that he would be sold for that. Branthwaite was quoted at 80m after barely any PL experience.

We simply need to stop spending absurd amounts on players with who are unproven anywhere. Antony, Hojlund, etc. had proven nothing much anywhere prior to signing here for huge fees. They were signed for fees you'd expect for a forward that had absolutely torn up a league, but had barely any goal contributions between them. It is not a case of where the player is from, it is the player's quality (and experience).

 

[hellhunter]

Seems you are correct:

Academies, women’s teams and infrastructure don’t count and owners can bear the brunt of 100million according to this article.

https://www.skysports.com/amp/footb...ns-are-there-on-clubs-spending-what-they-want

Your general point still stands though, not disagreeing with that. Hard to see us spend big, and even if we do our track record isn't exactly great

 

[Steve 007]

Your general point still stands though, not disagreeing with that. Hard to see us spend big, and even if we do our track record isn't exactly great

The squad feels worse than ever, I am not sure if that’s quality, confidence, a lack of effort/desire or some mix. It doesn’t feel like Chelsea’s where they were just waiting for a manager to gel their superstars.

I have no idea how we get out this hole or if it becomes the new normal. We need to act fast and with limited spending power and we are not going to get much by selling what we’ve got.

 

[hellhunter]

The squad feels worse than ever, I am not sure if that’s quality, confidence, a lack of effort/desire or some mix. It doesn’t feel like Chelsea’s where they were just waiting for a manager to gel their superstars.

I have no idea how we get out this hole or if it becomes the new normal. We need to act fast and with limited spending power and we are not going to get much by selling what we’ve got.

I don't think our squad is as bad as many people think. Inexperience at ST, no proper WBs in a WB heavy system but most importantly a lack of confidence and mentality is costing us. Not saying this squad can win the league, but it can compete for top 4 with some well chosen additions, not 7 or 8 players like some think

 

[Steve 007]

I don't think our squad is as bad as many people think. Inexperience at ST, no proper WBs in a WB heavy system but most importantly a lack of confidence and mentality is costing us. Not saying this squad can win the league, but it can compete for top 4 with some well chosen additions, not 7 or 8 players like some think

It’s interesting, I think we’ve lost or drawn at least 5/6 games we should have won this season.
Brighton, Palace, West Ham, Ipswich, Forest and Wolves (if no red). If we’d got 3 points in those games we’d be top 4. It’s how many players underperforming that scares me.

Casimeiro, Rashford, Mainoo, Bruno, Onana (yes he’s improved), Martinez and Gernacho are all much better than what we are seeing.

 

[SparcMac]

The aim isn't to get players for peanuts. It's not happening, wherever we sign players from. That can be forgotten.

There's a thing on this forum, a kind of obsession with youth. Youth that cost nothing. I see people talking about Amass, Dibling, Obi Martin etc.

Even now we've got posters saying let's bring youth through at a time when we're massively struggling. In part because we have a bunch of players too young in the first XI. It'd be adding fuel to the fire.

Yeah we're United, we have a strong history of young players coming through.

But you can't always rigidly stick to an ideology. Like when you're 14th with a new manager. Now isn't the time for 18 year olds. It's the worst possible time in fact.

We need to stop messing about as a club trying to be clever. It isn't working. Just do the obvious. Get players who are ready to hit the ground running and preferably proven in this league.

Yes, perfect squad average age is from 23.5 to 25.5. Which means a good mixture of sub 20, sub 25, sub 30 players mostly. That being said, our absolute monster players who should lead the squad in terms of experience and performance should be Bruno, Rashford, Maguire, Shaw, Onana and Casemiro.
Only of Bruno has been the most consistent. Which being said, we need either younger ones to rely on or older ones to step in and do things still.

 

[Lee565]

Max Kilman went for 40m+

Antonio Silva is quoted 120m.

And I can continue. All the CB's City have bought in past 7 years, none of them came for peanuts.

Notts forest got milenkovic for around 12 million! I'm pretty sure we were linked with him in previous years. Notts forest seem to be yet another club with a better scouting system than us.

 

[Insanity]

They don't work out for us either, do they?

Mata, Shaw, Schneiderlin, Sanchez, Wan Bissaka, Maguire, Matic, Sancho (is a PL product), Mount - all have ranged from mediocre to shit. Shaw has shown the most potential but has been fit sparingly to display it.