Confirmed: Moyes sacked.

[Balu]

@Balu would be nice to get your opinions on LVG.

I already wrote about it a few times, so in short:

• I'm not sure he's the right fit for the club.
• Usually a slow starter, needs time to implement his ideas. If there's a longterm plan towards his idea of football, he's a good start, even though he most likely won't finish the job. The club should build on his work though, even if it is with a different manager in 2-3 years.
  
• He's imo shockingly bad in the transfer market, don't give him control over transfers.
  
• He's a miracle worker with youth players though.
• He's a massive cnut, I have respect for his work, really dislike him as a person though and am glad that I don't have to listen to him anymore.

 

[Nozzy]

He got 12 goals and 12 assists in 31 games during the 2012/2013 season and 6 goals, 13 assists in 29 games in the 2011/2012 season. These stats are for premier league games. During that 2011/2012 season he was mostly played as a right or left attacking midfielder and not a number 10.

I've included only League goals - 82 appearances & 18 goals in his Chelsea years. Not bad & lots of assists. Would he get into the United side ahead of any of SAF's no10's, from 1993 to 2013?

Stats aside, he was a liability at Goodison, easily relieved of the ball, zero tackling ability & zero tracking back ability. I want & United demand, a combative no10, with an all round game & team contribution, not a ballet dancer.

 

[Nozzy]

Those players are all strikers or second strikers. Rooney occasionally plays no 10. Also

Cantona's scoring records (from 92 - 97) - 9, 18, 12, 14, 11
Yorkes (99-02) 18, 20, 9, 11

Not that much better.

All round team contribution? Tackling back? Cantona heading off the line in Cup Semi-Finals. Can you see JM doing any of that? Would SAF have found him a shirt between 1993 & 2013 - who would he have kept out?

York was class for two seasons & a party animal for the last two - we all know that.

 

[NoLogo]

I've already wrote them a few times, so in short:

• I'm not sure he's the right fit for the club.
• Usually a slow starter, needs time to implement his ideas. If there's a longterm plan towards his idea of football, he's a good start, even though he most likely won't finish the job. The club should build on his work though, even if it is with a different manager in 2-3 years.
  
• He's imo shockingly bad in the transfer market, don't give him control over transfers.
  
• He's a miracle worker with youth players though.
• He's a massive cnut, I have respect for his work, really dislike him as a person though and am glad that I don't have to listen to him anymore.

Pretty much what I think of him as well. IMO the negative things outweigh the positives about him though. I remember Ribery saying he drained the life and fun out of the whole team towards the end and how glad he was to have Heynckes now who had a much more personal touch with his players.

 

[Kill 'em all]

I've included only League goals - 82 appearances & 18 goals in his Chelsea years. Not bad & lots of assists. Would he get into the United side ahead of any of SAF's no10's, from 1993 to 2013?

Stats aside, he was a liability at Goodison, easily relieved of the ball, zero tackling ability & zero tracking back ability. I want & United demand, a combative no10, with an all round game & team contribution, not a ballet dancer.

Most of the times he was dispossessed, he didn't even have an option to pass the ball. No one was making any runs or even trying to make space for a pass which led to Mata being closed down by 2 or more players before he even had the opportunity to pass the ball. The way we were playing under Moyes really did let Mata down in the end.

 

[Revan]

Mata played a lot off of the left and right for Chelsea.

How many assists in that time ?

He has actually 32 goals and if I am not mistaken he had 44 assists for Chelsea (in all competitions).

 

[Nozzy]

Mata is a one position player now? And League cup and FA cup games don't count.

Okay then. I need no longer discuss this with you...especially in this thread.

I'm claiming he is a liability because he has one aspect to his game, around the opposition box - United demand a whole lot more than that.

 

[Nozzy]

Most of the times he was dispossessed, he didn't even have an option to pass the ball. No one was making any runs or even trying to make space for a pass which led to Mata being closed down by 2 or more players before he even had the opportunity to pass the ball. The way we were playing under Moyes really did let Mata down in the end.

I'll give you that - it was an horrific display in that regard. He is lightweight, slow, cannot tackle, will not track back, has great around the box vision but in a Manchester United shirt, you have to be able to do everything.

I've said enough & this is all off thread.

 

[Backrow Singer]

I'll take some stick for this I suspect, but I'm torn in half to be honest. I can't remember the first time I went to Old Trafford, but my Dad reckons that I was around 5 years old. I've followed the club home and away for years and have been accustomed to the club doing things a certain way. I'm just don't think that this is the way the club should be looking to show and portray themselves. I appreciate that the game is changing and that sometimes improvisation is needed, but if a football club give a manager a 6 year contract, he deserves more 9/10 months or whatever to put his own stamp on things. He's even spoken about the plans that have/are being put in place so I don't know what he was being told.

The way the situation and process was handled was disappointing in my option. At United I'd like to think that we do things with a bit more class and a bit more professionalism than we have shown here.

Having said that though, performances haven't been good enough this season. You can't deny that. It's been pretty horrible to watch and we are where we are at the end of the day. 7th in the league, out of the European Cup, knocked out of the League Cup and beaten by Swansea in the FA Cup at Old Trafford. Add in the losses to City, Liverpool, Chelsea and the like and as I say, it's not good enough.

To say that the players are blameless is wrong though in my opinion. Sometimes the players need to stand up and take some responsibility as well. We were champions last season and I didn't expect us to be where are at now. They are a better set of players than the league table shows.

 

[Feeky Magee]

I would sooner United win. I want Ryan Giggs to finish with a 100% win record because I like him, if you want him to lose some of his games then so be it.

Well in the scenario I posted, United were playing Chelsea on the last day, so it's obviously not this season. Either way, you'd want to be f*cking insane or just don't get the rivalry to want United to win a last-day meaningless match to give Liverpool the title over Chelsea.

What scenario did you propose? I can't seem to find it after looking at past few pages and don't feel like searching for a long time.

Number 2:

Go f*ck yourselves, you pompous twats. Right, so in the following situations:

1) Moyes is replaced by the manager you personally rate the least, in the world. After another disastrous season, United lie in mid-table. The board, not wishing to sack 2 managers in 2 years, announce that if United win their last game, at home to already-relegated Burnley, they will retain the manager for the next season. You believe that replacing him would lead to 10+ more wins the following season.

2) United lie third. They cannot finish second or fourth. They travel to Chelsea on the last day of the season, in a game postponed from earlier in the year. Liverpool have already played all their games and are 2 points clear of Chelsea at the top of the table. Only a United loss can prevent Liverpool winning the title.

3) United top their 2016 Champions League group with one game to go. With hectic league schedules, the new policy of the best teams in the competition bar United is to rest their stars for every group game, and as a result they will all come second. A win means United will face either Barcelona, Real Madrid, Atletico Madrid or Bayern Munich in the last 16. A loss and they will face HAPOEL Tel Aviv, Lille, Standard Liege or Sporting Braga, who have all somewhat fortunately won their groups on goal difference against the B squads of the stars.

Do you enthusiastically want United to win in each of the above scenarios? Even if in 1) and 3) you believe it will probably lead to more hurtful and meaningful losses in the future and in 2) you gift your biggest rivals the title?

 

[Red Dreams]

Most of the times he was dispossessed, he didn't even have an option to pass the ball. No one was making any runs or even trying to make space for a pass which led to Mata being closed down by 2 or more players before he even had the opportunity to pass the ball. The way we were playing under Moyes really did let Mata down in the end.

agree. Mata is simply class. LvG will bring the best out of him.

 

[Red Dreams]

any news on the backroom staff?

 

[A1X]

 

[MrMarcello]

Ah, cheers, Feeky. I was leaning towards having sold Rooney in the past summer, which means Chelsea would probably have the title locked up by now.

 

[kouroux]

Been listening all day to Liverpool, Arsenal and Chelsea fans being extremely disappointed with Moyes not given time to build something at Utd.

 

[KiD MoYeS]

any news on the backroom staff?

Woods and Neville to remain for the remainder of the season at least. Lumsden and Round follow Moyes out the exit door.

 

[Red Dreams]

Woods and Neville to remain for the remainder of the season at least. Lumsden and Round follow Moyes out the exit door.

hope Woods remains. I hope Phil Neville can be of some use to us. Sure Giggs and Butt will be working with him to see how he can help.

 

[Feeky Magee]

Ah, cheers, Feeky. I was leaning towards having sold Rooney in the past summer, which means Chelsea would probably have the title locked up by now.

But it makes no difference whether Liverpool or Chelsea win the title as long as it's not United, right @Empire?

 

[Red Dreams]

Been listening all day to Liverpool, Arsenal and Chelsea fans being extremely disappointed with Moyes not given time to build something at Utd.

indeed.. sorry...no repeat of Souness

 

[Dirty Schwein]

hope Woods remains. I hope Phil Neville can be of some use to us. Sure Giggs and Butt will be working with him to see how he can help.

He can show them 'how not to do things'

 

[Plugsy]

Now Gary knows his brother is being kept on for now his opinion on Moyes is probably "feck him"

 

[Red Dreams]

He can show them 'how not to do things'

 

[MrMarcello]

But it makes no difference whether Liverpool or Chelsea win the title as long as it's not United, right @Empire?

Liverpool can take a flying feck. I'm noticing an increasing number of LFC "supporters" popping up on this forum and on the ESPN FC feeds. From places like Malaysia and Singapore on ESPN FC.

 

[Raul Madrid]

Out of interest, do you think there is a manager out there atm that could give you what ferguson did (ie long term success for over a very long period of time and stability) or someone who could give you the closest to it as possible. For me mourinho could, but there is obviously problems with his personality and drama, but there was a bit of that with ferguson too. I believe that mourinho is capable of giving a club long term success if he has the right working conditions which I don't think he has been given in his career so far. At united he would get that.

 

[bishblaize]

Does that mean if United hadn't paid over the odds, other clubs might have show interest?

We paid the pre-agreed fee. No-one could have got him for less.

http://www.theguardian.com/football/blog/2014/jan/26/chelsea-manchester-united-juan-mata-transfer

there isn't a first 11 player, in the 20 successful SAF years, that Mata would displace - maybe via with Berbatov for a shirt but he was hardly a glowing success either.

Apples and oranges comparison - Fergie didn't play formations that would suit a no. 10 like Mata so we didn't have any players who could be compared side by side in his time as manager. All Fergie's 'no. 10s' were second strikers who were adept at playing in the box. The closest was the 4-5-1 circa 2003 when we played a 29 yo Scholes there.

Scoles, was a far more versatile player than Mata could ever hope to be.

Another meaningless comparison - you're looking at the entire 20 year career of Scholes vs part of the career of Mata. Aged 25 Scholes had only just moved from being a striker to an attacking midfielder, with none of the playmaker elements yet.

All round team contribution? Tackling back? Cantona heading off the line in Cup Semi-Finals.

 

[rimaldo]

stop talking about mata in this thread.

 

[sun_tzu]

Muller played as a wide forward. I've got no idea about Litmanen.



Watch the FIFA interview with van Gaal. He mentions his preference for the 4-3-3 system. He describes the 4-3-3 formation as HIS system.

Im on about when ribery and robben played... muller was most deffinatley central supporting one of olic / klose / gomez

such as

or http://www.zonalmarking.net/2011/02/27/bayern-1-3-dortmund-tactics/

and litmanen at ajax was very much in the second striker type role

 

[Barney]

And now Liverpool supporters world wide are cracking the shits. We are the big news worldwide they are still smaller then us.

 

[Empire]

We missed out on many top players ferguson was in for sometimes over issues of refusing to pay the agent a fee. Hazard,Moura, Sneijdergate as recently as the fiasco over Herrera who's release clause was about 3m more than we overpaid for Fellaini. Second rate players or youth prospects or bargains and you can bet Moyes appointment was partly driven at saving a buck.

Alex Ferguson has always been about value in the market. Louis van Gaal will be no different. Therefore this doesn't suggest anything, he called PSG mad for spending £30m on Lucas Moura. I think he learned his lesson from Anderson.

Looks like the pennies finally dropped with the Mata signing and the proposed opening of the war chest and I am not saying our squad is bad, it's behind only City in terms of quality/depth but the board failed to deliver Fergusons top targets consistently and the chickens are coming home to roost.
It's all well and good telling me and half the caf that the board are in a better position to judge and we all know they are but the simple facts are it's been badly judged and here we are.

Ferguson's top targets were not available at the cost he wanted, he wasn't willing to blow his finances on paying more than he felt they were worth. Now I'm not saying they didn't refuse him funds but I am saying Ferguson was very value conscience. Therefore until Ferguson comes out and says the Glazers didn't back him (thus contradicting everything he has said up until now, even in interviews such as with Charlie Rose where he didn't need to praise the glazers but did anyway) then we will never know.

I cannot see him spending £40m on Hazard when he could have spent £14m on Kagawa. Especially with his plan to play Kagawa as a number 10 at the time.

I am not in anyway defending Moyes performance it was a complete disaster on his part but there should have been someone there guiding him, somebody to turn to him and say no David it's a bad idea to sack all those experienced coaches we can't allow it.
SAF and Charlton may have chosen the guy but they aren't board members as such and the decisions after Moyes was handed the job were terrible on behalf of the management team and the board, the sackings the transfer window and the panic buying of Fellaini.

Well the worst of it is hopefully over and the chosen one is gone, let's hope we can start to move forward from here.

You can't force coaches on him and you can't force advisors on him. If he wanted to work with his own team then you must give him absolute freedom however if his methods don't work then you find somebody who will get the job done. This is happening, there are no excuses and a top level manager should not need babysitting.

Steve Jobs would say to his senior employee (vice president level) that if the garbage in his office is not being emptied regularly for some reason, he would ask the janitor what the problem is. The janitor could reasonably respond by saying, "Well, the lock on the door was changed, and I couldn't get a key."

It's an irritation for Jobs, but it's an understandable excuse for why the janitor couldn't do his job. As a janitor, he's allowed to have excuses.

"When you're the janitor, reasons matter," Jobs tells newly minted VPs.

"Somewhere between the janitor and the CEO, reasons stop mattering," says Jobs, adding, that Rubicon is "crossed when you become a VP."

I like how the board afforded David Moyes absolute freedom to operate however upon failure he could have no excuses. The objectives were there however he failed and next season evidently they were not confident enough in him getting the job done.

You are right in part, in the sense the board must bear responsibility for all that happens. Their experiment failed here, however, I have no problem with them taking calculated risks and experimenting in order to better the club. They will recover from this therefore what they did was fine, they thought Moyes could get top four with that squad and if he did, he would make it his own over time and grow as a manager becoming very competitive.

 

[Paolo Di Canio]

What different formations/system does Van Gaal usually play?

 

[Kill 'em all]

Spoiler

Im on about when ribery and robben played... muller was most deffinatley central supporting one of olic / klose / gomez

such as

or http://www.zonalmarking.net/2011/02/27/bayern-1-3-dortmund-tactics/

and litmanen at ajax was very much in the second striker type role

You come back with pretty diagrams which I also like but van Gaal himself said 4-3-3 is his system.

 

[Skywarden]

Best wake up news I've had in a while. Rejoice!

@Eboue

 

[Invictus]

So now you speak for the Moderators? Referring to my post as "absolutely nonsense", is not at all condescending?

Juan Mata is a wonderful footballer, who is a luxury in the Manchester United style of play IMO. His stats are far from outstanding.
2007–2011Valencia129(33)
2011–2014Chelsea82(18)

18 goals, playing no10, over three seasons for Chelsea, is more an indication of why the Manager many United fans wanted, offloaded him to the first decent (inflated) offer.

Name one player in the successful SAF era, (1993 to 2013) who Mata would have displaced, in the no10, second forward role? Cantona, York, Sherringham, Rooney. All these players had other attributes & made greater contributions, than Mata can offer with his limited, around the box play, making him, a luxury player.

IMO

Apologies for going somewhat off topic

Nozzy what the hell are you doing here ?

Sorry had to do it. Welcome up man.

But I have to digress with your opinion on Mata. The problem is you're comparing him to the wrong set of players. Cantona, Yorke, Sherringham, Rooney - were all strikers first and foremost. They may be creative and may have played in the hole - but No. 10s they aint. A number 10's value can't be judged by stats, goals or even in terms of assists. Look at 2 of the greatest No. 10s of the last 20 years. Neither Laudrup nor Zidane had a massive number of goals. They didn't have huge assist stats. They didn't have exceptional workrate. But what they did have was the ability to influence play. And Mata, though nowhere as good as either offers the same qualities. Look up Chelsea's matches since he joined them. He will not jump out initially but look close enough and you'll find that most of their attacking play went through them. He's definitely not a luxury player and when he's used in the right system he can be a game-changer with his clever build play and incisive close range passing. Problem is cerebral players like him often get ignored for more hollywood rah-rah guys. It's a travesty that Scholes was so misunderstood by most fans in his time. Only the opposition knew he was the heart beat of United's play. Mata though playing in a more attacking role is more similar in that he may not score a ton of goals and may not even assist much but under further examination you'll see how important he's to the build up of play. Infact faux No. 10s like Rooney are rarely used nowadays because they are not as creative as specialist No. 10s and play too close to the No. 9, disrupting both him and the goal-scoring wide players. If we want to play a progressive style, Mata is perfectly suited to the No. 10 role in our team. What we have to decide upon is the choice for No. 9 - it's a toss up between RVP and Rooney.

BTW as other have pointed out your Mata's stats from Wiki are incorrect. Here are the real ones (ESPN) :

2012/ 2013 Season for Chelsea :

Games : 55
Goals : 20
Assists : 28

2011/ 2012 Season for Chelsea :

Games : 47
Goals : 12
Assists : 20

Those are exceptional stats for a No. 10 when you compare him to his contemporaries like Ozil and Silva. But like both of them he suffers when the overall quality around him is lacking. He's primarily a facilitator and people often fail to take that into consideration. We all saw how devastating he was used in the proper system with Hazard and Oscar at Chelsea last season. Another thing you'll notice is the sheer number of games he's played without getting injured. He has an exceptional fitness record and you can always rely on him to be 100 % at crucial times during the season. He has a bright future at the club.

PS : Modmin sorry for OT. First and last time.

 

[MrMarcello]

Van Gaal seems like the exact opposite of Moyes from what I gather.

 

[Zarlak]

My point, was that Nani was returning an extended lay off through injury & being thrown into that particular fixture. IF, he's going to be brought back in, then it's last 20 mins in a home game.

It's not really that much worse than starting Giggs in CM which SAF did many times.

 

[Devil may care]

What a man.

That pretty much sums up his tenure at United.

 

[KiD MoYeS]

What different formations/system does Van Gaal usually play?

4-3-3 for the most part, but he has used various different formations, it is the philosophy that remains.

 

[Nozzy]

We paid the pre-agreed fee. No-one could have got him for less.

http://www.theguardian.com/football/blog/2014/jan/26/chelsea-manchester-united-juan-mata-transfer

Interesting article. I believe we overpaid as Chelsea have ffp to worry about & may have accepted less. Maybe.

Apples and oranges comparison - Fergie didn't play formations that would suit a no. 10 like Mata so we didn't have any players who could be compared side by side in his time as manager. All Fergie's 'no. 10s' were second strikers who were adept at playing in the box. The closest was the 4-5-1 circa 2003 when we played a 29 yo Scholes there.

I accept that but I also think that the United way, excludes players like Mata & Berbatov, who don't or can't in Mata's case, make an all round contribution.

Aged 25 Scholes had only just moved from being a striker to an attacking midfielder, with none of the playmaker elements yet.

When Scoles played behind RVN, he had a great season. He became a regular in 95/96, had six full seasons under his belt in midfield, alongside Keane. After one season as a no10, he moved back into midfield, if memory serves. Mata could not do this I'm sure you would agree. He cannot play in a two man MF, he cannot play wide for Man United. He can play no10 but he'd be a luxury. When Rooney has played there, he's also beefed up the MF - Mata cannot fulfil this duel role. Will we set up the team to play around him, yes, we'll try it and then cast it aside as he is physically not able to do that no10 duel role.

Humble pie on that one - large slice.

 

[Empire]

Well in the scenario I posted, United were playing Chelsea on the last day, so it's obviously not this season. Either way, you'd want to be f*cking insane or just don't get the rivalry to want United to win a last-day meaningless match to give Liverpool the title over Chelsea.

Number 2:

Just read those scenarios, they are so unrealistic

How about the game is played on the moon?

Or better, If United lose not just do liverpool win the title but they die on the way back home...

I can't remember how this all started but I'm pretty sure it was actually a realistic scenario, in fact, probably something to do with you watching the United team this season hoping for them to lose.

 

[ManUtd43vr]

I am genuinely scared about what will happen after my night's sleep. Neville's article doesn't help either.