College Football & NFL thread 2007/8

The NFL claims the Patriots did this same trick against Green Bay last season and suspect they've done it on other occasions. Miami has complained before as have the Jets.

Other teams believe their playbooks were somehow accessed not just their signals and books videotaped.

The allegations only go back a couple of years.
 
One thing is for sure, the Patriots dynasty will never be able to compare with those of the niners,steelers and cowboys after this stain on their reputation. How do we know Belichick and his guys haven't been doing this for years now?
 
Products of the system
By Dan Wetzel, Yahoo! Sports
September 11, 2007

Dan Wetzel
Yahoo! Sports

The National Football League's greatest rogue *********** offered the most succinct and enduring mission statement about the league and the game of football.

"Just win, baby," Oakland Raiders managing partner Al Davis always says, cutting to the chase like no one else.

There is no honor in the NFL. This is our most violent game, a cut-throat, all-out, win-at-all-costs sport where cheating – be it holding on the line, bumping in the secondary, or injecting a drug in the corner of a weight room – is, if not applauded, at the very least accepted.

Each sport has a culture and what people raise hell about in baseball, golf or basketball is mostly shrugged off in the NFL. That this is far and away our most popular sporting pursuit – the new national pastime – says as much about America as it does about the league's morals.

So what to make of the NFL's present-day coaching deity, Bill Belichick, the one who has won three of the last six Super Bowls but now is embroiled in a cheating scandal?

NFL commissioner Roger Goodell has "determined" that a New England Patriots employee videotaped the New York Jets defensive signals in a 38-14 victory Sunday, according to ESPN. The commissioner awaits the Pats' defense later this week.

So is Belichick the greatest Machiavellian mind in this ruthless game, one who just happened to get caught this time? Or is he just a lout and a cheat?

Is he an NFL problem or is he the NFL; a byproduct of a business where a coach that doesn't seek every last advantage is doomed to fail, like an honest politician?

"I think the Patriots actually live by the saying, 'If you're not cheating, you're not trying,' " said San Diego Chargers running back LaDainian Tomlinson.

Here's the thing with Belichick: this charge fits perfectly with everything we know about him on and off the field. He's no angel, a lifetime of drama that ranged from backing out of contracts, feuding with mentors (Bill Parcells) and protégés (Eric Mangini) alike and even giving the tabloids plenty of fodder for his, ah, extracurricular behavior, if you will.

But it also fits with everything we know about the NFL. Don't coaches hide their mouths when they speak, use multiple sideline signalers and guard playbooks with their lives? Wouldn't they sell their soul to know what an opponent is thinking?

"Really, it's nothing new," said Pittsburgh Steelers coach Mike Tomlin about signal stealing. "When you see offensive coordinators covering their mouth – and that's been going on a long time – that's one of the reasons why that's done.

"You hear rumors of things of that nature," Tomlin said, noting it often comes from the "New England family." "In terms of confirming it, it's never been confirmed in any instance to my knowledge. But usually where there is smoke, there's fire. Those rumors are founded on something. So it's not totally shocking, no."

Not shocking, perhaps. But embarrassing? Absolutely. The Green Bay Packers claim they caught a Patriots employee videotaping their signals a year ago and complained to the NFL.

If New England's defense is as feeble as expected, then the franchise should be punished. The rules are the rules, no matter how often they are broken; no matter the base culture.

Goodell should take a draft pick or even suspend Belichick, who's iron-fisted leadership means no employee would dare try this without his knowledge. Stealing signals via the human eye is one thing. Having an employee use a video camera speaks to an operation that is both brazen and premeditated.

It also shows the depths these coaches will go for a competitive edge. When properly executed, the advantage would be considerable. But in this instance, the risk/reward variable seems painfully small since the Patriots are more than capable of whippin' the Jets all on their own.

Perhaps that's just football. Whether Belichick is actually worse (or better) than any other coach in the league is difficult to determine. All of these coaches are nuts. To be an NFL coach is to work endless 100-hour weeks, sleep in your office and go bleary-eyed looking for the slightest flaw in an opponents’ Tampa 2. Then you wind up losing because a kicker goes wide right.

They sacrifice everything in their lives in pursuit of victories. The casualties are easy to see: health, marriage, children, sanity. It's why NFL football coaches, despite being multimillionaires, are perhaps the single most miserable group of people you'll ever know.

If you are willing to virtually abandon your wife and kids to win a game, what won't you do?

The NFL isn't alone here. Cheating is everywhere. And it can be confusing, each sport has a different culture. In golf, you can't improve your lie an inch, yet in soccer flopping is considered a skill. In baseball, cheating pitchers are colorful but corked-bat hitters are condemned. In NASCAR, a crew chief that isn't pushing the legal limits of engineering isn't doing his job. College sports is often hailed for its "purity," yet illegal recruiting is so prevalent former UNLV coach Jerry Tarkanian once surmised, "Nine out of 10 teams are cheating, the other is in last place."

So why expect anything less in the NFL? Fans want victories and nothing else. There are no illusions of purity here. They'll gladly cheer for players who can range from miscreant to felon. The players themselves will vote peers who have been busted taking performance enhancing drugs into the Pro Bowl.

Nobody cares. Nothing matters. If you're not cheating, you're not trying. Just win, baby.

That's the NFL. And that is the world that would lead someone such as Bill Belichick, someone with so much to lose, to insanely risk his reputation on the long shot that a small advantage might provide just one more victory he probably would have gotten anyway.
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Nice article.
 
I actually disagree though.

Football is the closest we have to a 'non cheating' sport.

The drug testing is the most rigorous in American sport. The rogues are actually punished unlike the NBA, and there are some truly noble and prominent leaders and role models in the NFL.
 
:lol:

I'd be more worried about the fact that my team has been cheating to win for the past few years if I were you.;)
 
jasonrh said:
I actually disagree though.

Football is the closest we have to a 'non cheating' sport.

The drug testing is the most rigorous in American sport. The rogues are actually punished unlike the NBA, and there are some truly noble and prominent leaders and role models in the NFL.
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I agree. The way the writer mentioned holding and pass interference as cheating was stupid, not to mention 'flopping is a skill'. Those things are basically fouls. No way does it compare to the pre-meditated and calculated cheating the Patriots have done. I do think there is widespread use of HGH in the NFL becuase after all there still isn't a test for it.
 
Good news concerning Kevin Everett:


Neurosurgeon: Bills' Kevin Everett moved arms and legs, which means he could walk again
By JOHN WAWROW, AP Sports Writer
September 12, 2007


AP - Sep 10, 6:28 pm EDT
More Photos

BUFFALO, N.Y. (AP) -- Kevin Everett voluntarily moved his arms and legs on Tuesday when partially awakened, prompting a neurosurgeon to say the Buffalo Bills' tight end would walk again -- contrary to the grim prognosis given a day before.

"Based on our experience, the fact that he's moving so well, so early after such a catastrophic injury means he will walk again," said Dr. Barth Green, chairman of the department of neurological surgery at the University of Miami school of medicine.

"It's totally spectacular, totally unexpected," Green told The Associated Press by telephone from Miami.

Green said he's been consulting with doctors in Buffalo since Everett sustained a life-threatening spinal cord injury Sunday after ducking his head while tackling the Denver Broncos' Domenik Hixon during the second-half kickoff of the Bills' season opener.

Everett dropped face-first to the ground after his helmet hit Hixon high on the left shoulder and side of the helmet.

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Everett remains in intensive care at Buffalo's Millard Fillmore Gates Hospital and will be slowly taken off sedation and have his body temperature warmed over the next day, Green said. Doctors will then begin taking the player off life support systems -- including a respirator -- currently controlling his body functions.

"It's feasible, but it's not 100 percent predictable at this time ... he could lead a normal life," Green said.
 
I'm not happy about it, but I'm just not sure if it's THAT drastic. Videotaping opposing coaches (and who knows how many times it's been done - not just by the Pats but by anybody) isn't going to win you Super Bowls.

in other words, I am still the greatest person of all time and any sports team I support is God's team.
 
Noy yo Fdart said:
I'm not happy about it, but I'm just not sure if it's THAT drastic. Videotaping opposing coaches (and who knows how many times it's been done - not just by the Pats but by anybody) isn't going to win you Super Bowls.

in other words, I am still the greatest person of all time and any sports team I support is God's team.
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Except of course that it does help you win superbowls. If you know what a defensive play is going to be called you have a huge advantage over your opponent. Who knows how many times the Pats have cheated out wins this way?
 
Desert Eagle said:
Except of course that it does help you win superbowls. If you know what a defensive play is going to be called you have a huge advantage over your opponent. Who knows how many times the Pats have cheated out wins this way?
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Exactly.

It is a huge advantage.

If you can figure out who the real signal caller is, and know exactly what he is calling, you can mic it straight into the QB's head. Imagine knowing they're coming on a hard blitz, or that they're faking it and putting everyone back into tight pass coverage. He then calls an audible to meet the situation. It is an unbelievable advantage.

That, and the Pats are accused of 'irregularities' involving the use of mics

I reckon they secretly mic'ed up a defensive player so that they could cheat and pipe in the stolen signals to him as well. Remember only the QB is entitled to a radio system, hence the

As for why they'd do it against the Jets, why not? A win is a win, and any team in the NFL is capable of beating any other on the right day.

If you've not been caught for at least two years, why bother worrying about it against a crap team?
 
Belichick apologizes for videotape flap

Associated Press

9/12/2007 7:25:38 PM

FOXBOROUGH, Mass. (AP) - This videotape needs no interpretation: New England Patriots coach Bill Belichick walked out of his news conference Wednesday when pressed repeatedly about the sideline spying scandal that landed him on NFL commissioner Roger Goodell's crowded docket.

Ten minutes before his regular availability, Belichick issued a one-paragraph statement apologizing to his team and confirming that he has spoken to Goodell about an ''interpretation'' of league rules that ban videotaping of the opposing sideline.

''Although it remains a league matter, I want to apologize to everyone who has been affected, most of all ownership, staff and players,'' Belichick said. ''Following the league's decision, I will have further comment.''

It was not clear whether Belichick was apologizing for his actions or the distraction it has caused his team as it prepares for Sunday night's marquee game against San Diego.

But if he thought - or even hoped - that the standing-room crowd of media was there to talk about the Chargers, he failed to prepare in the manner that has made him one of the most successful coaches in the history of the league.


Never one to relish his interactions with the media, Belichick grimly refused to respond to a half-dozen questions about the scandal, possible punishments and the potential effect on his team. Begging for a football question, he seemed ready to abort the news conference after just a few minutes at the podium.

''Any questions about the Chargers?'' he pleaded in his standard, other-things-to-do monotone. ''Want to talk about the football game? If not, I think that statement pretty much covers it.''

It appeared that there was none, before one reporter asked about Chargers running back LaDainian Tomlinson.

The prospect of defending against the reigning NFL offensive player of the year is not the sort of thing that usually cheers up opposing coaches.

But Belichick smiled.

''I think the Chargers are a concern. Their football team is a concern. That's what we're concerned about,'' he said. ''Whatever happens out there Sunday night, out there on the field, that's when everybody will make their statement.''

After another 15 minutes of football questions, though, the subject returned to the spying scandal.

''Is there any other question on the Chargers?'' Belichick said before walking out. ''OK. Yep. That's all. OK. Thank you.''

NFL security confiscated a video camera and tape from Patriots video assistant Matt Estrella on Sunday when he was working on the New York Jets' sideline during New England's 38-14 victory. The league has confirmed that it is investigating whether the Patriots were taping the Jets' defensive coaches as they signalled to players on the field.

Tennessee Titans coach Jeff Fisher, a co-chairman of the NFL's competition committee, said the league is trying to keep technology from overtaking the game.

''If they are in fact found guilty of this, it only shows that the steps the league has taken are good steps,'' Fisher said. ''There's no place for it. Everybody clearly understands the rules. The competition committee's responsibility is to protect the integrity of the game. With technology the way it is right now, things could get out of hand in a matter of weeks if we don't protect the integrity of the game.''

Jets coach Eric Mangini, a former Belichick assistant, declined to comment. Asked if he had any knowledge of such shenanigans while he was in New England, he followed the form of his mentor.

''As I said with this whole issue, it's a league issue and they are handling it,'' Mangini said. ''And we are really focused on the Ravens.''

Patriots players also tried to focus on their game.

''I'm the last person in the world to know any of that stuff, anyway,'' offensive lineman Matt Light said. ''I could care less what happens outside of my little world.''

But Goodell doesn't have that luxury.

In a busy year for his misbehaving minions, the commissioner has already banned Tennessee cornerback Adam (Pacman) Jones for the entire season after repeated run-ins with police. Atlanta quarterback Michael Vick has been suspended indefinitely while he faces a likely jail term for his role in a dogfighting ring.

The Bengals had 10 players charged with crimes during a 14-month span, and both receiver Chris Henry and linebacker Odell Thurman are currently suspended. Cincinnati quarterback Carson Palmer wants Goodell to be consistent with his punishment, whether the offender is wearing a uniform or not.

''Hopefully there's a harsh enough penalty that it's not worth it to try to cheat and try to get any advantage that you're not allowed to get,'' Palmer said. ''I hope the commissioner is just as harsh on them as he's been on individual players for making mistakes.''

Other players reacted strongly.

''It just makes you wonder how long they've been doing this and has it really helped them win some games? Giants defensive end Michael Strahan said on a conference call with Wisconsin media ''That's no different from the cheating ref in basketball.''

Last November during New England's 35-0 victory in Green Bay, the Packers caught Estrella shooting unauthorized video told him to stop.

''When you look back, it's scary,'' Packers cornerback Al Harris said. ''I don't want to say anything wrong towards their organization, because I think highly of their coaching staff and their personnel, but if that's the case, that's not right. I would consider it cheating. I honestly would.''

ESPN.com, citing league sources, reported Tuesday that Goodell has already determined the Patriots violated league rules; both teams say no decision has been made. The Web site's report said Goodell is considering severe sanctions, including docking the Patriots ''multiple draft picks.''

''It's really hard to say (they should) forfeit games,'' Pittsburgh receiver Hines Ward said. ''Draft picks would hurt a lot of teams; take away their first or second-round pick - that would be a stiff penalty to make sure nobody does it again.

''You would hope that, during their run, when they were winning all their Super Bowls, all that stuff wasn't going on. You look back in the past, and we played them in the championship games, and you kind of wonder. It seemed like they were a step ahead of us at all times, but those games are behind us. There's nothing we can do about it. You just look forward and see what the commissioner will do.''

Belichick sidestepped questions about the commissioner's timetable and about whether he had any contingencies in place should he get suspended - the most drastic of the potential penalties Goodell could consider. The coach also refused to discuss whether he worried that the scandal - dubbed ''videogate'' in the press room, of course - would distract his players.

Also at stake is the legacy of the NFL's latest dynasty, one that memorably rejected individual on-field introductions before its first Super Bowl victory, instead ''choosing to be introduced as a team.'' Stressing individual discipline and salary cap selflessness in a league where they tend to be in short supply, the Patriots won three NFL titles in four years and held themselves up as a model organization.

Now, they're being accused of cheating.

''That's not going to tarnish this team,'' running back Kevin Faulk said. ''We know what we do and how hard we work.''

Linebacker Chad Brown, who re-signed for a second stint with the team this week and landed in the middle of the tumult, acknowledged it would be embarrassing if the allegations turn out to be true. But he also said the videotaping is an offshoot of the gamesmanship all teams indulge in.

''I think that all the facts should come out before people judge this organization,'' Brown said. ''I think we do things the right way.''
 
Latest on Kevin Everett.


Kevin Everett's mom hopeful of Bills player's recovery: 'He's like a miracle'
By JOHN WAWROW, AP Sports Writer
September 13, 2007

BUFFALO, N.Y. (AP) -- Patricia Dugas can't help but notice that every time she enters Kevin Everett's hospital room, her son looks more and more like himself.

"I can't even explain it to you; he's like a miracle," Dugas said Wednesday, her voice breaking in a telephone interview with The Associated Press. "There's not a whole lot, but enough to give me some hope. And that's all I need, because hope will take me a long way."


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Look at how far it's gotten her since Sunday, when Everett, the Buffalo Bills reserve tight end, sustained a life-threatening spinal cord injury while making a tackle in the team's season opener against Denver.

Dugas left her home in Port Arthur, Texas, on Monday fearing her son would never walk again. Everything changed Tuesday, when she watched Everett move his limbs and feel her touch when he was partially awakened from a sedated state.

By Wednesday, doctors at Buffalo's Millard Fillmore Gates Hospital were confident enough to remove Everett from a respirator and began amending their initial prognosis from "bleak" to "cautious optimism," regarding the chances of his recovery.

"The patient's made significant improvement. But no one should think the functions in his legs is close to normal. Not even close," said Dr. Kevin Gibbons, the hospital's supervisor of neurosurgery. "If you ask me, 'Would he walk again?' I would tell you that I wouldn't bet against it. But he has a long way to go."

Everett can wiggle his toes, bend his hip, move his ankles, elevate and kick his leg, as well as extend his elbows and slightly flex his biceps, Gibbons said. While all are significant signs of improvement, he noted that Everett has yet to show any movement in his hands.

"Walking out of this hospital is not a realistic goal, but walking may be," said Dr. Andrew Cappuccino, the team's orthopedic surgeon.

Dugas spoke publicly for the first time Wednesday, elated at what she's witnessed since her initial visit, when she found her son under heavy sedation and his body functions controlled by life-support systems.

"It was devastating," she said. "I kind of stepped back. But I had to go forward. And I got up to him and told him I loved him."

And now?

"Happy," said Dugas, who has spent the past three days at her son's bedside. "I'm extremely happy. I'm grateful."

Everett was hurt after ducking his head while tackling the Denver Broncos' Domenik Hixon during the second-half kickoff of the Bills' season opener. He dropped face-first to the ground after his helmet hit Hixon high on the left shoulder and side of the helmet.

Unable to get the Bills game on TV at home, Everett's mother called several sports bars and learned one just around the corner was showing the game.

Dugas walked in as the second half began, just in time to see her son fall to the ground.

"That's the first thing I saw. I was so upset. I was distraught, and I started panicking, 'What can I do? And I've got to get to him because he's not getting up,"' she said. "I can't explain to you how I felt, because there's no words for it. It was the worst thing I had ever saw."

"'Get up,"' Dugas recalled saying. "I mean, I can't explain it. It was just horrible."

With help from some bar patrons, Dugas composed herself, went home and immediately began making plans to travel to Buffalo.

Then came the next shock.

Cappuccino called from the hospital to inform Dugas of her son's condition. A few minutes later, Everett was on the phone.

"He put him on the phone and (Everett) said, 'Momma, don't worry. I love you. I love my sisters. I know I'll be all right,"' Dugas said. "He asked if I was coming, and I said, 'Momma is coming. You don't even worry about that."'

Despite knowing Everett's condition, Dugas was comforted by hearing his voice.

"I was so proud of him, laying in the condition that he was in and thinking about me, his family" she said.

His Bills family isn't just thinking about him -- numerous players also visited Everett on their day off Tuesday.

"I started cracking little jokes to keep him upbeat," tight end Robert Royal said. "He was actually laughing a little bit when we were talking about football stuff. ... He was excited, and we told him we would stick by him no matter what."

Coach Dick Jauron, who also visited Everett, acknowledged it would be difficult for his team to prepare to play at Pittsburgh on Sunday.

"There's no way to pretend that Kevin's situation does not occupy our thoughts and our conversations a lot of the time. It certainly does," Jauron said. "But I think our guys are professional enough, and they really care enough about what they do."

Dugas thanked the Bills, the hospital medical staff and fans for their work and support. Part of her time with Everett is spent reading him the many cards and letters that already have arrived at the hospital.

"We're going to take it slow getting him up on his feet, but we hope to see him walk out of here," Dugas said. "I always told him when he was a little boy, 'You show them better than you can tell them.' He's going to be fine. I really believe it."


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Encouraging signs.
 
the more I think about this "cameragate" situation, the more I simply don't give a shit. why don't we put security monitors on every team's sideline and see how much 'cheating' we can dig up? I have seen numerous pundits over the past few days relating the bunches of different ways signs are stolen. If a team thinks their opponent is catching a read on their plays, then man up and change the signs. Frankly, it's part of the game. Admittedly setting up a cameraman to do this crosses the line. I think a fine is in order and no more... unless Goodell is willing to investigate every single team and sideline as well. The Patriots are only getting a bad rap because they were the first to be caught. I don't see that big of an advantage in doing this; in the 30 seconds between plays, how are you going to be to: have the cameraman read the signs, relay it to the coach, adjust properly and give the info to the players on the field? I don't care what adjustments you make; there's only so much you can prepare for on the field. It has an absolute miniscule effect on the Patriots legacy of the past six years. If this is such an advantage, then how come the Pats haven't won six super bowls in a row? It's not to say that I condone the actions of Belichick. He's already one of the greatest coaches of all time and had easily the capabilities to crush the Jets (which we would be able to do ten times over if asked to). There's just no need to do what he did. Bitter Mangini finally took some initiative to tattle tale I guess. In short, people everywhere now have a reason to bash the Pats. At least all of these people who have watched them dominate the NFL these past years can vent their pathetic frustration on some minor allegations. Hail to the King, baby.
 
Well stealing signs without the use of a camera and/or other electronic means is part of the game. But video recording signs so they can be channeled to the booth for later parts of the game is pure cheating. That simple. If the OC and DC know the signs for each formation, they can call plays to easily defeat that formation. It's akin to stealing the opposing team's playbook and/or having a "spy" on the opposing team's sideline sending signals to the booth. Video recording offers the chance to look up and disect the plays and signs. By having the video, the OC can see the sign, know the formation, then call an audible to the QB.

FFS, if this wasn't serious then why does the NFL not allow opposing scouts and coaches to watch their opponents practice?
 
Noy yo Fdart said:
the more I think about this "cameragate" situation, the more I simply don't give a shit. why don't we put security monitors on every team's sideline and see how much 'cheating' we can dig up? I have seen numerous pundits over the past few days relating the bunches of different ways signs are stolen. If a team thinks their opponent is catching a read on their plays, then man up and change the signs. Frankly, it's part of the game. Admittedly setting up a cameraman to do this crosses the line. I think a fine is in order and no more... unless Goodell is willing to investigate every single team and sideline as well. The Patriots are only getting a bad rap because they were the first to be caught. I don't see that big of an advantage in doing this; in the 30 seconds between plays, how are you going to be to: have the cameraman read the signs, relay it to the coach, adjust properly and give the info to the players on the field? I don't care what adjustments you make; there's only so much you can prepare for on the field. It has an absolute miniscule effect on the Patriots legacy of the past six years. If this is such an advantage, then how come the Pats haven't won six super bowls in a row? It's not to say that I condone the actions of Belichick. He's already one of the greatest coaches of all time and had easily the capabilities to crush the Jets (which we would be able to do ten times over if asked to). There's just no need to do what he did. Bitter Mangini finally took some initiative to tattle tale I guess. In short, people everywhere now have a reason to bash the Pats. At least all of these people who have watched them dominate the NFL these past years can vent their pathetic frustration on some minor allegations. Hail to the King, baby.
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The :wenger: smilie was made for posts like this.
 
MrMarcello said:
Well stealing signs without the use of a camera and/or other electronic means is part of the game. But video recording signs so they can be channeled to the booth for later parts of the game is pure cheating. That simple. If the OC and DC know the signs for each formation, they can call plays to easily defeat that formation. It's akin to stealing the opposing team's playbook and/or having a "spy" on the opposing team's sideline sending signals to the booth. Video recording offers the chance to look up and disect the plays and signs. By having the video, the OC can see the sign, know the formation, then call an audible to the QB.

FFS, if this wasn't serious then why does the NFL not allow opposing scouts and coaches to watch their opponents practice?
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everyone keeps talking about half time adjustments as well. if there can be conclusive proof that there are advantages gained from it then there should be severe punishment. but until equal and valid sanctions can be obtained around the league, I think Goodell is really a sitting duck. your last point is very legitimate though. practices should be completely closed to the team; in fact during games I would kick all camera footage not belonging to my own team completely out of my locker room, sidelines etc. if other teams are gonna bitch about this stuff, then they need to take the precautions to be more careful with their signs.

and I still don't see how this would could significantly change games. you could know every team's playbook and signs cover to cover, but you still need the tools, talent, and good decision making to pull them off. football games are never won in X's and O's.
 
Noy yo Fdart said:
and I still don't see how this would could significantly change games. you could know every team's playbook and signs cover to cover, but you still need the tools, talent, and good decision making to pull them off. football games are never won in X's and O's.
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But if you know a power dive off the left guard is coming, then you shift your defense to cover this. Voila - run stopped for a short gain, if any. If the offense comes back with trips, you shift the defense to 5 backs (either a 3rd CB or drop a LB deep) and the safeties sit deep. Voila - incomplete pass or turnover. The DC could also call a blitz knowing the offensive play.

Flip it the other way and the sideline guy sees the D lined up in man-to-man, signals to the OC, and the OC calls some formation that beats man-to-man consistently. Say the sideline guy sees a blitz package, the OC checks the video, then calls something to beat the blitz - perhaps a running back draw.

It's not about Xs and Os but about having the Xs and Os exploit the opposing side. Knowing the formations and audibles ahead of time is akin to you and I playing chess and I can read your mind. I can make moves ahead of time to block your moves.
 
Noy yo Fdart said:
you could know every team's playbook and signs cover to cover, but you still need the tools, talent, and good decision making to pull them off. football games are never won in X's and O's.
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I agree with that point. If you don't have the players capable of doing their jobs than it would have less of an impact, but we all know the Pats have good players on both sides of the ball.
 
MrMarcello said:
But if you know a power dive off the left guard is coming, then you shift your defense to cover this. Voila - run stopped for a short gain, if any. If the offense comes back with trips, you shift the defense to 5 backs (either a 3rd CB or drop a LB deep) and the safeties sit deep. Voila - incomplete pass or turnover. The DC could also call a blitz knowing the offensive play.

Flip it the other way and the sideline guy sees the D lined up in man-to-man, signals to the OC, and the OC calls some formation that beats man-to-man consistently. Say the sideline guy sees a blitz package, the OC checks the video, then calls something to beat the blitz - perhaps a running back draw.

It's not about Xs and Os but about having the Xs and Os exploit the opposing side. Knowing the formations and audibles ahead of time is akin to you and I playing chess and I can read your mind. I can make moves ahead of time to block your moves.
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you're much more well-versed in this game than I am. I just fail to see how coaches can get the signals from their cameramen and then make the adjustment in time. bear in mind this process would all be happening between plays. honestly I don't see how much more information you could gain from this then just watching videotape before the game, which we know Belichick and co are very adept at. maybe in this day and age, if this type of coaching is escalating to this level, 'video coaching' should be done away with altogether.
 
Noy yo Fdart said:
god forbid you contribute anything to the discussion.

:drool::D:boring::o:nono::wenger::annoyed:
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The so-called discussion is just a pathetic excuse by you to downplay the seriousness of what your team has been caught doing, Saying that knowing what formation and plays the opponent is going to throw at isn't that big a deal shows stunning ignorance. MrMarcello has already explained that point to you.

everyone keeps talking about half time adjustments as well. if there can be conclusive proof that there are advantages gained from it then there should be severe punishment. but until equal and valid sanctions can be obtained around the league, I think Goodell is really a sitting duck.
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Another :wenger: post. Similar to the F1 scandal going on right now, you seem to think that just because we cheated and obtained classified information from other teams, the league still has to prove that we used the information to win before they punish us.:wenger: You broke the rules, so that you could use it not so you could sit on the information. Its like saying if a guy is found cheating during an exam by having the answer key before hand. He then argues his case by saying the uni/school need to prove he actually used the information and also investigate all the other students before punishing him.

I just fail to see how coaches can get the signals from their cameramen and then make the adjustment in time. bear in mind this process would all be happening between plays. honestly I don't see how much more information you could gain from this then just watching videotape before the game,
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You do realise it takes few seconds to tell the coach the defense is about to blitz the weak side or that the offense is going to run a standrard counter. The coaches/assistants/Qb are in constant communication. As for your second statement, I'm struggling to believe you can actually believe the shit you are saying. Why do coaches always cover their mouth when calling plays? Why do they go through the trouble of getting assistants to do the same just so the opponent won't know whats coming?? Because its all about unpredictability. Like MM said its akin to knowing your opponents next move in chess. Get your head out of your ass and realise the New England blockbusters are just a bunch of cheats.
 
I don't know much about american football and don't really follow it as much you guys but a question for DE and marcello. Where would you guys compare this to the italian scandal or the vince carter thing when he told the seattle bench the play the raps were running.
 
Desert Eagle said:
The so-called discussion is just a pathetic excuse by you to downplay the seriousness of what your team has been caught doing, Saying that knowing what formation and plays the opponent is going to throw at isn't that big a deal shows stunning ignorance. MrMarcello has already explained that point to you.



Another :wenger: post. Similar to the F1 scandal going on right now, you seem to think that just because we cheated and obtained classified information from other teams, the league still has to prove that we used the information to win before they punish us.:wenger: You broke the rules, so that you could use it not so you could sit on the information. Its like saying if a guy is found cheating during an exam by having the answer key before hand. He then argues his case by saying the uni/school need to prove he actually used the information and also investigate all the other students before punishing him.



You do realise it takes few seconds to tell the coach the defense is about to blitz the weak side or that the offense is going to run a standrard counter. The coaches/assistants/Qb are in constant communication. As for your second statement, I'm struggling to believe you can actually believe the shit you are saying. Why do coaches always cover their mouth when calling plays? Why do they go through the trouble of getting assistants to do the same just so the opponent won't know whats coming?? Because its all about unpredictability. Like MM said its akin to knowing your opponents next move in chess. Get your head out of your ass and realise the New England blockbusters are just a bunch of cheats.
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you're a faggot. end of. I didn't even read your shit post. ban me.

EDIT: changing my password to jibberish. goodbye forever.
 
NFL fined Patriots coach Bill Belichick $500,000 and team $250,000 for spying on opponent

By DAVE GOLDBERG, AP Football Writer
September 13, 2007


NEW YORK (AP) -- Bill Belichick should be able to read this signal clearly:

Spy on your opponents, and it will cost you.

The New England coach was fined the NFL maximum of $500,000 Thursday and the Patriots were ordered to pay $250,000 for stealing an opponent's defensive signals.

Commissioner Roger Goodell also ordered the team to give up next year's first-round draft choice if it reaches the playoffs and second- and third-round picks if it doesn't.

The videotaping came to light after a camera was confiscated from Patriots video assistant Matt Estrella while he was on the New York Jets' sideline during New England's 38-14 win last Sunday at Giants Stadium.


The NFL said the camera was seized before the end of the first quarter and had no impact on the game.

"This episode represents a calculated and deliberate attempt to avoid longstanding rules designed to encourage fair play and promote honest competition on the playing field," Goodell said in a letter to the Patriots.

He said he considered suspending Belichick but didn't "largely because I believe that the discipline I am imposing of a maximum fine and forfeiture of a first-round draft choice, or multiple draft choices, is in fact more significant and long-lasting, and therefore more effective, than a suspension."

Goodell's hard line on discipline has been aimed so far at players -- most notably Michael Vick and Adam "Pacman" Jones.

By penalizing a coach and a team he showed that no one, not even management, was immune.

Reached at his home, Patriots owner Robert Kraft declined to comment.

The New York Jets said: "We support the commissioner and his findings."

New England, strengthened by the addition of Randy Moss, two other first-rate wide receivers and linebacker Adalius Thomas, is considered one of the favorites to win the Super Bowl for the fourth time since the 2001 season. If the Patriots lose their first-rounder next season they still will have a first-round pick, obtained from San Francisco in the deal that brought Moss from Oakland.

NFL rules state "no video recording devices of any kind are permitted to be in use in the coaches' booth, on the field, or in the locker room during the game." They also say all video for coaching purposes must be shot from locations "enclosed on all sides with a roof overhead."


That was re-emphasized in a memo sent Sept. 6 to NFL head coaches and general managers. In it, Ray Anderson, the league's executive vice president of football operations wrote: "Videotaping of any type, including but not limited to taping of an opponent's offensive or defensive signals, is prohibited on the sidelines, in the coaches' booth, in the locker room, or at any other locations accessible to club staff members during the game."

The NFL statement said Goodell believed Kraft was unaware of Belichick's actions.

But it said the commissioner believed penalties should be imposed on the club because "Coach Belichick not only serves as the head coach but also has substantial control over all aspects of New England's football operations. His actions and decisions are properly attributed to the club."

On Wednesday, Belichick issued a one-paragraph statement 10 minutes before his regular availability, saying he had spoken with Goodell "about a videotaping procedure during last Sunday's game and my interpretation of the rules."

"Although it remains a league matter, I want to apologize to everyone who has been affected, most of all ownership, staff and players," he said.

NFL coaches long have suspected opponents of spying. In the early 1970s, the late George Allen, coach of the Washington Redskins, routinely would send a security man into the woods surrounding the team's practice facility because he suspected there were spies from other teams there.

And coaches like Seattle's Mike Holmgren and Philadelphia's Andy Reid, among others, always cover their mouths when calling plays from the sideline because they fear other teams have lip readers trying to determine their calls.

The most recent hefty fine against a coach was in 2005, when Tagliabue fined former Minnesota coach Mike Tice $100,000 for scalping Super Bowl tickets.

Last November, Goodell fined Tennessee coach Jeff Fisher, co-chairman of the competition committee, $12,500 for criticizing officials. He also fined Pittsburgh owner Dan Rooney, one of his mentors and the man who informed him he had been elected commissioner, for the same violation.
 
ecantona7 said:
I don't know much about american football and don't really follow it as much you guys but a question for DE and marcello. Where would you guys compare this to the italian scandal or the vince carter thing when he told the seattle bench the play the raps were running.
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The Italian scandal in my view wasn't as a deal as a lot of people make it out to be. Basically the owners of the teams spoke to the head of the referees and tried to get refs they like to officiate their games. As far as I know there was no direct contact with the refs. It would be like Gill going to Hackett and saying here is some cash, try to get Ref A,B,C,D to officiate our games. It is still bad but not as bad as match fixing in cricket or the gambling ref in the NBA. What Carter did didn't effect the entire NBA/raptors reputation and name but his own. Its a bit like comparing one disgruntled employee to a corrupt business if you know what I mean.

Noy yo Fdart said:
you're a faggot. end of. I didn't even read your shit post. ban me.

EDIT: changing my password to jibberish. goodbye forever.
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WTF? :lol:
 
Does it really matter? Whether they use a video camera or whether they have somebody whose job it is to watch the signals and write them down. It is about trying to find something, even the smallest thing, that'll give you a competitive advantage.

It is against the rules, they're being punished financially with their fines and sportingly with the loss of a draft pick. For me the legacy isn't tarnished and they're still a great team.

PS. I'm not a Patriots fan.
 
Diego Forlans Headband said:
For me the legacy isn't tarnished and they're still a great team.
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What's tarnished is the idea that "the Patriots' way" is somehow a professional ideal to be emulated. In actuality Bellichick chose to repeatedly ignore the rules of the game for an edge and in so doing exposed his desire to put winning ahead of ethics. That's certainly not an uncommon trait among competitive types at that level but Patriots fans by and large are deeply disappointed that they were let down by the coach's stupidity and arrogance in this case.

I can't say I consider them a great team now. Who knows how much of their so-called greatness stems directly from ill-gotten information?
 
Diego Forlans Headband said:
Does it really matter? Whether they use a video camera or whether they have somebody whose job it is to watch the signals and write them down. It is about trying to find something, even the smallest thing, that'll give you a competitive advantage.

It is against the rules, they're being punished financially with their fines and sportingly with the loss of a draft pick. For me the legacy isn't tarnished and they're still a great team.

PS. I'm not a Patriots fan.
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Of course it matters. They probably used this information to win games while cheating. How many of their 'great' victories are becuase they cheated?? Trying to find a competitive advantage is fine as long as you don't break the rules. by your definition would it be fine for pro footballers to use steroids? After all "It is about trying to find something, even the smallest thing, that'll give you a competitive advantage"

Tiberius Aquila said:
What's tarnished is the idea that "the Patriots' way" is somehow a professional ideal to be emulated. In actuality Bellichick chose to repeatedly ignore the rules of the game for an edge and in so doing exposed his desire to put winning ahead of ethics. That's certainly not an uncommon trait among competitive types at that level but Patriots fans by and large are deeply disappointed that they were let down by the coach's stupidity and arrogance in this case.

I can't say I consider them a great team now. Who knows how much of their so-called greatness stems directly from ill-gotten information?
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This is the key point. I would think if they used it against the Jets in a season opener in arguably the year they have their most talented roster then I would bet they have used it in a lot of other situations.
 
Tiberius Aquila said:
Who knows how much of their so-called greatness stems directly from ill-gotten information?
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Just because they video'd a few signals? Don't be ridiculous.

It is the nature of the game. Ok, they crossed the line, but they're being punished now and the difference between someone videoing and someone watching and taking notes must've been very very minimal.
 
Complete joke. NE got off easy. Guess the NFL doesn't see a big thing in cheating. Take away a 1st rd pick if they make the playoffs but if they don't they keep the 1st rd pick and lose a 2nd and 3rd. It won't hurt them - they already have San Francisco's 1st rd pick and they have an additional 3rd rd pick. If the NFL really wanted to send a message to cheaters, then suspend Belichick like you would a player (minimum 4 games) and take away their entire first day draft (rounds 1-3). NE got off easy. So did Bellichick, who I will never see in the same light as I did before.
 
Diego Forlans Headband said:
Just because they video'd a few signals? Don't be ridiculous.

It is the nature of the game. Ok, they crossed the line, but they're being punished now and the difference between someone videoing and someone watching and taking notes must've been very very minimal.
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Between Belichick and the Patriots they were fined .75mil and a first-rounder. His personal .5mil fine is the maximum allowed for that offence. That's not a simple wrist-slap. It speaks to the depth of the hard evidence against them. Stealing "a few signals" wouldn't incur that kind of punishment from the commissioner.

You're also ignoring the fact that it must have been perceived as of the greatest importance to videotape not only the Jets' defensive signals that day but other teams' signals on more than one occasion. Belichick was foolish to believe that he could continually get away with it particularly after being warned recently; he couldn't have been so stupid to think that if he did get caught there would be no repercussion. He evidently felt the risk was worth it. He wouldn't risk the trouble he's going through now for just a few signals.
 
MrMarcello said:
Complete joke. NE got off easy. Guess the NFL doesn't see a big thing in cheating. Take away a 1st rd pick if they make the playoffs but if they don't they keep the 1st rd pick and lose a 2nd and 3rd. It won't hurt them - they already have San Francisco's 1st rd pick and they have an additional 3rd rd pick. If the NFL really wanted to send a message to cheaters, then suspend Belichick like you would a player (minimum 4 games) and take away their entire first day draft (rounds 1-3). NE got off easy. So did Bellichick, who I will never see in the same light as I did before.
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Agreed. I don't want to get all conspiracy theory here but the lack of uproar about this has been very strange.
 
Tiberius Aquila said:
You're also ignoring the fact that it must have been perceived as of the greatest importance to videotape not only the Jets' defensive signals that day but other teams' signals on more than one occasion. Belichick was foolish to believe that he could continually get away with it particularly after being warned recently; he couldn't have been so stupid to think that if he did get caught there would be no repercussion. He evidently felt the risk was worth it. He wouldn't risk the trouble he's going through now for just a few signals.
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I understand that they did wrong, but I also believe that the punishment is in line with what they really did. They were fined and docked a draft pick and they're getting crucified by what is, in my opinion, an over jealous self righteous US sports media.

I just don't agree with the whole hullabaloo. It was wrong, but not a huge deal.
 
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