Cold War against China?

as the West turned blind eyes to abuses from certain dictatorships
Which ones and at which time periods? The Chilean dictatorship which the CIA installed by having Allende murdered? The Shah's dictatorship (53)? Saddam's dictatorship after the Shah was ousted and he went to war against Iran? 79-85(ish) (with CONTRA, i.e., central and southern American dictatorhips and drug monies via weapons to Iran through that war in-between)? The Afhgani freedom fighters later to become dictators when their use was served? The ragband of freedom fighters who were yesterday's and will be tomorrow's terrorists when their use, likewise, has been served? The Saudi dictatorship? The Egyptian dictatorship(s) (barring one, which was also a CIA coup).

Not an anti-West thing, I'm just curious as to which point in history the West took a moral stand against dictatorships? It has overthrown democracies for dictators (and blamed communism, somtimes half-true, sometimes just complete fecking nonsense, i.e., spheres of influence, Monroe but global). Now, China does this via capital these days. Russia props up a few dictators here and there. But the moralizing, in foreing policy terms, from the West, self-identifying, is absurd.

The difference between Assad the Dictator and Assad the necessary ruler was an oil pipepline, Russian influence, and general region geopolitical movements. That's what the media doesn't tell you. Now Assad has been welcomed back by the Arab League, and abroad, and thus the West (whatever that even means these days), will do business with Syria (regime) in the coming years (the Saudis demanded access to the Syrian market, directly, to the US, so you can read the writing on the wall).
 
A ruling class? Seems to me that the ruling class (savage capitalists and greedy entrepeneurs) has been whoring itself for too long with dictators for way too long and that people are choosing to not turn the blind eye anymore.

Have you ever considered that such distorted view of pragmatism is exactly what created the many gray areas for dictatorships to exploit in recent years? The so-called cold calculation served for some time but also met its expiry date. The can of worms was opened as soon as the West turned blind eyes to abuses from certain dictatorships, so much that abuses became more overt and that anti-democracy became mainstream worldwide as well.

If democratic countries stood taller and stronger by their own principles over the last decade, would major dictatorships have become any stronger since? Would democratically elected governments from Myanmar and Senegal have been kicked out in such a violent manner without serious backing from China and Russia respectively? Would Ukraine have been invaded? Now that we can't repair the past, all there is left is to do whatever necessary to protect democratic institutions against autocratic influence.

If you don't like the way things are going within Western and European political circles towards China or the likes, then it is too bad. This new cold war has already begun between democracy and autocracy instead of simply capitalism against communism. Autocrats already made the first move across the world, so it's up to believers of democracy to respond with a strong share of strength. Personally, I want nothing less than all autocratic regimes to fall flat on their faces down the road. Call me crazy all you want; I don't care anymore.

There is a section of the ruling class, including capitalists, who favour confrontation with China. Among big capitalists, defence companies are the obvious ones, but there's also random ones like chip makers. More than anything, the small business owners who have (all the way since the 30s) been confrontational anti-Communists, and are massively influential in local and state politics.

Totally disagree with your second para. Whether it's been pragmatic or moralistic, the west has always been "turning a blind eye" to, and outright favouring, multiple brutal dictatorships. Suharto came to power in a US-backed coup and killed a million, with the US helping him diplomatically and the CIA helping him with kill lists. This wasn't pragmatically working with the dealt cards, this was proactive work against potentially Soviet-friendly Sukarno. The dictatorship of Syngnam Rhee (so incompetent that North Korea was outperforming them economically till he was kicked out of office) was propped up with massive US financial and military aid, before and after the Korean war, through multiple massacres. In the past decade Saudi Arabia has carried out bombings and a blockade in Yemen leading to famine and hundreds of thousands of deaths. Diplomatic support for the Saudis is a given, but the US does more: US-made Saudi attack aircraft get refueled on the way to their targets by USAF tankers. None of this comes from pragmatists turning a blind eye, this is what a proactive strategy, couched always in moral terms, looks like. In the first two examples it was anti-Communism, in the next it is encircling Iran/war on terror.
Not even mentioned Latin America, too many examples to even count.

I don't know what "principles" democratic countries should stand by regarding dictators. They've never had any principle other than helping allied dictators and attacking hostile ones. One of NATO's early heads was a high-ranking Wehrmacht general involved in war crimes on the eastern front. It's *always* been this way.

I don't see it as a principled clash at all. US officials have been open about the technological competition/superiority aspect of all this. The fact that everyone in power in the US (and most politically engaged people) seem to think that it is a moral clash, is what is dangerous.


Finally, about insanity: a few things.
I lived in China for a year, and knew somebody whose parents fled in the 70s. Literally swam across a small sea channel evading armed guards in a watchtower, to reach Macao. Naturally he quite anti-Mao. When he was growing up, his hometown was a fishing village. 20 years ago, when I first met him, it was a growing coastal city. I saw a video of it recently on youtube and it's an unrecognizable urban centre, full of surreal neon lights and a lot more greenery. In the last 10 years, he's been all praise for the government because of the extent of the economic transformation. I don't know if Chinese troops and the Chinese population match their enemies' will to fight and battle-hardiness. But if he is any indication, even when they disagree with their govt about specific things, they support it overall, quite strongly. So making "all autocratic regimes to fall flat on their faces down the road" will be a lot harder than it seems, in the case of China at least.

Second, China's insane foreign policy...They know what an insane uphill climb Taiwan is. And they still insist on pissing off every one of their neighbours with a border dispute. Vietnam in 1975 and India in the 50s would happily have gotten along with the PRC if they didn't push their border claims with the PLA. With the result that they've almost encircled themselves with hostile neighbours (these two + Japan, Philippines).

Finally, the insanity of the entire conflict in the backdrop of climate change. There is only one country with the industrial base and manufacturing track record in producing the wind turbines and solar panels that are needed everywhere in the world. Keeping these flowing would be the priority of any rational setup. Is this stuff even considered? Does anybody given a damn? If a world war is likely, is it in Chinese interest to accelerate their renewable transition? Surely that silicon will be used in missile guidance chips rather than solar panels, and that metal in trucks rather than wind turbines. It is collective suicide - but it will hurt the 3rd world much, much more, so it is an acceptable cost.
 
I think current USA vs China cold war (where both are at fault) ultimately comes down to much more crude reasons than democracy/individual rights vs autocracy/authoritarianism. It's simply about power and nationalism. Two huge countries wanting to be the big dog of the world that holds most overall influence. China could have spent the last half century becoming USA II, or even worse: a giant euro-left/liberal style social democracy, with far more balanced, sophisticated, egalitarian systems than the States, and confrontation (such as the current trade/tech wars) would have happened once they crossed a threshold of strength/influence. In fact, i think that would be perceived as a much bigger ideological threat than a dictatorship/totalitarian state, to be destabilised before it got too influential. Particularly in the minds of the American right, centre-right liberal nationalist types and the very wealthy, rather than whatever autocratic mashup we define China's system as. The latter is just too obviously repressive to pose a passive ideological threat simply by being there and doing well, while a polity showing that clearly left of american centre social democratic capitalism could work at that scale would be a multi-faceted problem.
 
I don't quite buy the notion that the US is only confronting China because they don't want a competitor. How do you think China developed itself over the last 40+ years? They couldn't have achieved the same results without the US.

I think China under Xi has unfortunately taken a different path than we hoped.
 
I don't quite buy the notion that the US is only confronting China because they don't want a competitor. How do you think China developed itself over the last 40+ years? They couldn't have achieved the same results without the US.

I think China under Xi has unfortunately taken a different path than we hoped.

I didn't intend to simplify it to the point that it's the only reason. Economically the relationship is a balancing act, and viewpoints change with the times. I'd never suggest either country has been led by those who want the other completely isolated and faces down in the mud economically; that could never be the case with capitalism. The usa (and closely affiliated european countries) went into increasing economic involvement with China as the substantially more powerful partner in the relationship, with many buying into "end of history" type narratives that positioned the US as singular superpower for a long time. economic links have been in many ways beneficial, and i'm sure for lots of examples, they were forged with little more than short-term perceived economic gain/personal enrichment in mind. However a one time substantially poorer and weaker trading partner seen at the time as a holdout of a discredited political ideology (communism) can later be perceived as a threat after growing stronger. Hence the many articles (and viewpoints from thinktank types on social media) that have come out in recent years decrying those economic policies of the past as a mistake, some of which barely make the effort to disguise they are being driven by a "we helped them get a bit too strong" nationalistic mindset, not a regret for interacting with an authoritarian regime.

There are a lot of factors for heightened tensions, but i feel most ( from those in the upper echelons of political influence) as their basis do come back to power games from both governments, which are often nationalistically reactive (especially from the divided American two-party side) rather than ideologically centered on democracy vs autocracy
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I don't know why Von der Leyen is more hawkish in her rhetoric than the likes of Macron and Scholz...

 

Is this where i now ask you...what?

If you're referencing the "even worse" part in a wtf manner, it was a (probably bad) attempt to easily convey ( by using the bluntest scenario possible) that i don't think this is a cold war with democracy vs autocracy as the foundation of it. Not that i really dislike liberal democracy.
 
Is this where i now ask you...what?

If you're referencing the "even worse" part in a wtf manner, it was a (probably bad) attempt to easily convey ( by using the bluntest scenario possible) that i don't think this is a cold war with democracy vs autocracy as the foundation of it. Not that i really dislike liberal democracy.
You said china could've become like the US, or worse, europe. I still don't understand what you mean by this, because it seems obvious china and world would be much better off if china was more like the us or europe, which you said is even worse, despite saying in the next line it's more balanced and egalitarian.

I'm confused.
 
You said china could've become like the US, or worse, europe. I still don't understand what you mean by this, because it seems obvious china and world would be much better off if china was more like the us or europe, which you said is even worse, despite saying in the next line it's more balanced and egalitarian.

I'm confused.

The world might be better off, but not necessarily the US. The other poster seems to be claiming that, hypothetically speaking, China the US clone or (even worse) China the socially liberal left wing democracy would be an even greater threat to US world hegemony than China the autocracy currently is.
 
The world might be better off, but not necessarily the US. The other poster seems to be claiming that, hypothetically speaking, China the US clone or (even worse) China the socially liberal left wing democracy would be an even greater threat to US world hegemony than China the autocracy currently is.
So the US would go to war with europe as it is politically today if europe's economy overcame the american economy? I just don't see it.
 
So the US would go to war with europe as it is politically today if europe's economy overcame the american economy? I just don't see it.

I'd doubt it but I wouldn't reject the possibility out of hand. If Europe became one big democratic super-state with a growing army and eager to pursue its own independent foreign policy agenda then I can certainly see the potential for conflict arising in an increasingly resource deficient future.
 
You said china could've become like the US, or worse, europe. I still don't understand what you mean by this, because it seems obvious china and world would be much better off if china was more like the us or europe, which you said is even worse, despite saying in the next line it's more balanced and egalitarian.

I'm confused.

Probably my fault. In English, i struggle to be concise or as clear as i would like when talking about complex subjects, which is why i've never posted much in this forum.

Look at the context of the previous and later sentences. It was an attempt to be as obvious as possible that i don't think the confrontation is mainly rooted in democracy vs autocracy, by bluntly flipping China's situation into being the same (USA II) or even worse (from usa's perspective not mine) a notably superior democracy than them.
 
Probably my fault. In English, i struggle to be concise or as clear as i would like when talking about complex subjects, which is why i've never posted much in this forum.

Look at the context of the previous and later sentences. It was an attempt to be as obvious as possible that i don't think the confrontation is mainly rooted in democracy vs autocracy, by bluntly flipping China's situation into being the same (USA II) or even worse (from usa's perspective not mine) a notably superior democracy than them.
Fair enough, it's possible I just misunderstood. I'm curious as to what makes you think two open and liberal democracies would go to war with each other, do we even have any other examples of that in history?
 
Fair enough, it's possible I just misunderstood. I'm curious as to what makes you think two open and liberal democracies would go to war with each other, do we even have any other examples of that in history?

I didn't say they would go to war with each other, nor do i think there will be a large-scale full out war in this conflict if there wasn't some extra factors thrown in like climate change; i'm still far from certain there will be one, only that the relationship will be one of increasing confrontation and mutually undermining cold war because of the socio/geopolitical nature and stances of both countries. I was saying i could still see there being similar level of tensions and confrontations to the current china vs usa issues, even in a democracy vs democracy scenario, particularly if the states couldn't portay itself as the superior one . i used that angle as it fit better with the point against it being democracy vs autocracy at it's foundation, plus it goes without saying there would be issues in a dictatorship vs dictatorship scenario.
 
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If you don't like the way things are going within Western and European political circles towards China or the likes, then it is too bad. This new cold war has already begun between democracy and autocracy instead of simply capitalism against communism. Autocrats already made the first move across the world, so it's up to believers of democracy to respond with a solid share of strength through principles. Personally, I want nothing less than all autocratic regimes to fall flat on their faces down the road. Call me crazy all you want; I don't care anymore.
Round of Applause, well said!!

The new cold war is very much ongoing and the sooner western leaders like Macron stop kowtowing to the likes of Bernard Arnault and start taking a stand the better.

I actually think if we're to save ourselves from climate change it's the Chinese who will do it, but Xi is also a destabilising and dangerous ruler. The time to take a stand against Russia was long passed, and China's time has come too you feel. The earlier you draw the lines, the less dangerous the battleground is likely to be IMO. Trade war > nuclear war.

When we've turned a blind eye to these people they keep pushing, so although economic ties and such like are important, so is having clear boundaries of acceptable behaviour.
Strategic ambiguity is all well and good when the CCP leader can be reasoned with, now they have an emperor who only cares about his legacy, it's time for the US to state their position on Taiwan.

 
Finally, about insanity: a few things.
I lived in China for a year, and knew somebody whose parents fled in the 70s. Literally swam across a small sea channel evading armed guards in a watchtower, to reach Macao. Naturally he quite anti-Mao. When he was growing up, his hometown was a fishing village. 20 years ago, when I first met him, it was a growing coastal city. I saw a video of it recently on youtube and it's an unrecognizable urban centre, full of surreal neon lights and a lot more greenery. In the last 10 years, he's been all praise for the government because of the extent of the economic transformation. I don't know if Chinese troops and the Chinese population match their enemies' will to fight and battle-hardiness. But if he is any indication, even when they disagree with their govt about specific things, they support it overall, quite strongly. So making "all autocratic regimes to fall flat on their faces down the road" will be a lot harder than it seems, in the case of China at least.

Second, China's insane foreign policy...They know what an insane uphill climb Taiwan is. And they still insist on pissing off every one of their neighbours with a border dispute. Vietnam in 1975 and India in the 50s would happily have gotten along with the PRC if they didn't push their border claims with the PLA. With the result that they've almost encircled themselves with hostile neighbours (these two + Japan, Philippines).

Finally, the insanity of the entire conflict in the backdrop of climate change. There is only one country with the industrial base and manufacturing track record in producing the wind turbines and solar panels that are needed everywhere in the world. Keeping these flowing would be the priority of any rational setup. Is this stuff even considered? Does anybody given a damn? If a world war is likely, is it in Chinese interest to accelerate their renewable transition? Surely that silicon will be used in missile guidance chips rather than solar panels, and that metal in trucks rather than wind turbines. It is collective suicide - but it will hurt the 3rd world much, much more, so it is an acceptable cost.
No one doubts the economic growth China has had in the last 20-30 years, but as someone who is currently living in China (I do reluctantly admit Hong Kong is part of China), I do not get the same vibe of Chinese people being very supportive of their government. If the US ever tried to invade Hong Kong, it would be quite an interesting situation with the majority of the citizens welcoming the invading army.

China literally has border disputes with every singles one of their neighbours except Putinland, Xi is an expansionist waiting to invade. If the US didn't act when he invades Taiwan, he'll move onto other countries next.

Nuclear power is the answer.
I don't quite buy the notion that the US is only confronting China because they don't want a competitor. How do you think China developed itself over the last 40+ years? They couldn't have achieved the same results without the US.

I think China under Xi has unfortunately taken a different path than we hoped.
Very much so, US-China relationships were amicable before Emperor Xi consolidated power and started war wolf diplomacy, threatening all their neighbours and the general international order.

Before people talk about money, growth, etc, China was already 2nd in GDP figures under Hu.
 
Jinchao "Patrick" Wei, a 22-year-old petty officer 2nd class, was arrested Wednesday and charged with espionage. Wei served as a machinist's mate aboard the amphibious ship USS Essex, which is currently receiving maintenance at Naval Base San Diego.

Petty Officer Wenheng Zhao, of Monterey Park, California, was also arrested Wednesday, by FBI and NCIS agents, and is charged with conspiracy and receipt of a bribe by a public official. Zhao, 26, worked at the Naval Base Ventura County in Port Hueneme and had an active U.S. security clearance who had access to classified information.

According to officials, Wei and Zhao are alleged to have each worked with Chinese intelligence officers to whom they passed along sensitive information related to the technologies they worked with and about upcoming Navy operations, including international military exercises.



https://abcnews.go.com/US/2-us-navy-sailors-arrested-allegedly-spying-china/story?id=101990144
 
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This is going to cast a ton of doubts about where loyalty lies for other US service members of Chinese descent with family/contacts still living over there, sadly. I don't think I have ever seen such blatant case of at least one US service member spying for his country of origin before this one.
The optics aren't great, yeah...
 
@VorZakone This guy is certainly fecked after what he did, according to the indictment.



I now wonder if and how the JAG Corps will make an example out of that. People are screaming for blood in the comments below the Twitter thread.
 
@VorZakone This guy is certainly fecked after what he did, according to the indictment.



I now wonder if and how the JAG Corps will make an example out of that. People are screaming for blood in the comments below the Twitter thread.


Is their anything more American than an angry mob of red flagged hicks shouting death penalty.
 
Is their anything more American than an angry mob of red flagged hicks shouting death penalty.

I'm just waiting for the JAG Corps to decide their fate in a court-martial. However, the now-public knowledge about China killing or locking several CIA informants for life over the last decade won't calm the instances that are wishing to make a clear and loud example out of those two sailors.
 
For all the crazy sh*t that has been dished for years or even decades on George Soros, I swear Singham matches the description of that far-left/true communist boogeyman a lot more than anybody if that description of him in the NY Times holds.
 

Wild read.

Some, like No Cold War, popped up in recent years. Others, like the American antiwar group Code Pink, have morphed over time. Code Pink once criticized China’s rights record but now defends its internment of the predominantly Muslim Uyghurs, which human rights experts have labeled a crime against humanity.
 
“It was bad — shockingly bad,” recalled one former U.S. military official, who was briefed on the event, which has not been previously reported.

 
It has to be the first time I go with something humourous in this thread, but this is way too funny to avoid. What the feck is that supposed to be? :lol: :lol: :lol:



This will certainly get strippers in other countries to start unionizing.
 
Article from 2022 but interesting to read.

The National Air and Space Intelligence Center, Kelly said, reports that China’s approach to developing advanced aerospace technology is highly iterative.

“We, as a nation, tend to let go of the trapeze and kind of make a leap for the next rung,” while “our Chinese ‘frenemies’ tend to iterate—5.1, 5.2, 5.3. They tend to iterate what they have, and morph and evolve.” This was China’s approach to building its fourth-generation fleet, he said.

“They started with Su-27, morph into Su-30, then their own J-16, Su-35,” he said, ticking off the upgrades and advancing versions of the Russian Flanker series of fighters that China purchased and then built indigenously.

“Then they build on that technology base,” he said. The Su-35, designed by Russia but which China has certainly tweaked to its own specifications, is “a good airplane,” Kelly acknowledged, calling it a fourth-generation airplane “with fifth-gen avionics [and] fifth-gen speed.” These aircraft will “make it a little easier when they go off the rung” to their next fighter.

“That’s an iterative plan to get to sixth-gen,” Kelly said. “We need to get there before they do. It won’t end well if we don’t.”
https://www.airandspaceforces.com/c...-pursuing-fighter-similar-to-ngad-kelly-says/
 


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Wow, I had no idea. I lived there in 2003, and visited once a year till 2010. Compared to India it was *massively* more developed in terms of visible poverty, literacy, and infrastructure. Even though salaries were very low, prices of most basics were also low, and the fact that low-wage factory and service workers got (bad quality, overcrowded) dorms from their employment meant that slums/homelessness were orders of magnitude lower than home.