Cold War against China?

4bars said:
Bringing Tesla on the subsidies vs competition conversation is very funny, really. US has spent billions in subsidies in EV in US also and it started way sooner on this subsidies to have a leg ahead.
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What are you talking about?

Tesla got a low interest cash loan by a state level funding mechanism and 1.7 Billion USD worth of buyer tax credits.

A drop in the ocean to the 400+ Billion USD China has given.

BYD gets billions of cold hard cash as subsidies... per year.
 
AfonsoAlves said:
What are you talking about?

Tesla got a low interest cash loan by a state level funding mechanism and 1.7 Billion USD worth of buyer tax credits.

A drop in the ocean to the 400+ Billion USD China has given.

BYD gets billions of cold hard cash as subsidies... per year.
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EVs through subsidies on helps to buy loans and also subsidies on chargers received dozens of billions.

I guess for you is a matter of quantities or directly or directly. Maybe we should see per inhabitant then? So US bad bad bad but China more bad?

There is always an excuse. US had been subsidizing the EV industry since much sooner than China (and other countries which sells the the cars). But now is time to cry "not fair" from China.

Sure, is not fair, but as my initial statement that is THE WHOLE POINT I WAS MAKING, is all nice and dandy when US does it first but is not nice and dandy when China does the same and double downs. I hope when I call out US doesn't strike that I think China is a great country. Far from it. My interactions are ALWAYS about the hypocresy of double morals
 
4bars said:
EVs through subsidies on helps to buy loans and also subsidies on chargers received dozens of billions.

I guess for you is a matter of quantities or directly or directly. Maybe we should see per inhabitant then? So US bad bad bad but China more bad?

There is always an excuse. US had been subsidizing the EV industry since much sooner than China (and other countries which sells the the cars). But now is time to cry "not fair" from China.

Sure, is not fair, but as my initial statement that is THE WHOLE POINT I WAS MAKING, is all nice and dandy when US does it first but is not nice and dandy when China does the same and double downs. I hope when I call out US doesn't strike that I think China is a great country. Far from it. My interactions are ALWAYS about the hypocresy of double morals
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This has nothing to do with morality and hypocrisy.

You can't tell the difference between giving subsidies for encouragement of adoption domestically versus subsidies for undercutting the market?

The first one is fine. The second one is not - and usually goes to various trading courts and WTO where it is frowned upon to downright banned practice.

Let's put it this way.

UBS did a research piece and found a Tesla Series 3 is around 15-20% more expensive than a BYD Dolphin EV to produce. So far so good.
The Dolphin EV retails at an 80% reduction compared to the Tesla 3 (!!!)

So what's happening here is that the Chinese government is enabling BYD to sell at a catastrophic loss in order to completely dominate the market and price competitors out of business through massive subsidies on the losses. This practice is called dumping and according to the WTO rules on free trade, completely illegal.

https://www.wto.org/english/thewto_e/whatis_e/tif_e/agrm8_e.htm

It's not that US are being hypocrites, it's that China is breaking WTO rules and USA is not, with their subsidies. It's that simple.

https://ec.europa.eu/commission/presscorner/detail/en/ip_24_5589

There's currently a court battle between China and the EU around dumping. It isn't the first time China has done this and the West broadly speaking have ignored most of them.

https://policy.trade.ec.europa.eu/n...dumped-imports-erythritol-china-2025-01-16_en

https://trade.ec.europa.eu/access-t...ware-exporters-evading-eu-anti-dumping-duties

https://unescap.org/sites/default/d8files/6 Mai.pdf

EU have been fighting Chinese Dumping for 3 decades now.

Like how Steel was being sold at 42% of cost into the EU markets.
 
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