Club Sale | It’s done!

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Like I said, there's absolutely no way you don't legitimately understand why the Qatari government having a controlling stake in the club would be ethically more problematic than them having a non-controlling stake in the club.

Actually their main protection in the west is France, which they leveraged through the purchase of PSG. They also bought their vote for the world cup with arms sales.

If your argument is "sportswashing doesn't work and isn't a thing" then I'm afraid that's just a lack of education on your part.

I wouldn't say that ‘sport washing isn’t a thing and doesn’t work’ — regarding oligarchs and the likes. There it works

But to shame sport fans for being subject to sport washing by Qatar or China and the likes is ridiculous in my opinion — since our governments and business elites have been tripping over themselves to make business with these guys for decades.

A crock can’t make business in the west. Where the oligarch crocks? More or less, right. Buy Chelsea and sit in the stands a few years and sport washing had done it’s thing. North Korea can’t make business in the west. They would need some real washing to get in. But China or Qatar, it’s ridiculous, they are the No 1 on so many speed dials…
 
I can't believe you think you are in a position to call someone edgy. whataboutism...the latest attack line from the woke elite
I really think the mods need to put a stop to this.

We'll be seeing a lot more of these discussions if an ME state takes over the club - it's all good if you want to continue supporting the club, or it's one step too far for you, but bottom line is, people are allowed to choose. Having a dig at them, regardless of their choice, is not acceptable.
 
I really think the mods need to put a stop to this.

We'll be seeing a lot more of these discussions if an ME state takes over the club - it's all good if you want to continue supporting the club, or it's one step too far for you, but bottom line is, people are allowed to choose. Having a dig at them, regardless of their choice, is not acceptable.

I agree with this. It's getting out of hand with some folk now with personal attacks on core beliefs and that's really starting to put me off using this forum.
We all have our views on it, but without civility it's just become a toxic place to be.
 
Would it be possible to create a 2nd thread, similar to the transfer news thread, were we just get updates/news stores on the potential sale without all the debate?

I am not interested in wading through tonnes of back and forth about ethics and morality, I just want to be able to quickly see what is going on!
 
I already posted this in the "Would you be ok with a state-backed owner....?" thread, but seems that it's somewhat relevant here now too:


The ultimate question I ask myself regarding this issue is:
“Would such an entity owning ourselves be likely to worsen the societal situation in that state?”

The answer that I arrive at is “No”.

It’s obviously an incredibly complex issue, but the historical precedent indicates that societal progress within such countries is positively paralleled with increased alignment with the West. It therefore follows that it’s much better for countries like ours to remain open to such economic and social integration with these states, as shutting the door in their faces would simply have the effect of pushing them further towards alternate, less liberal geopolitical centres of gravity.

Given my conclusion to the above issue, it’s easy for me to square the moral dilemma with the transformative benefits that such ownership would have on our sporting success, surrounding area, local community etc..
 
Would it be possible to create a 2nd thread, similar to the transfer news thread, were we just get updates/news stores on the potential sale without all the debate?

I am not interested in wading through tonnes of back and forth about ethics and morality, I just want to be able to quickly see what is going on!
This would be useful.
 
Would it be possible to create a 2nd thread, similar to the transfer news thread, were we just get updates/news stores on the potential sale without all the debate?

I am not interested in wading through tonnes of back and forth about ethics and morality, I just want to be able to quickly see what is going on!

Not a bad idea this
 
Would it be possible to create a 2nd thread, similar to the transfer news thread, were we just get updates/news stores on the potential sale without all the debate?

I am not interested in wading through tonnes of back and forth about ethics and morality, I just want to be able to quickly see what is going on!

Its the "Would you be okay with state or state backed ownership?" thread I think.
 
Would it be possible to create a 2nd thread, similar to the transfer news thread, were we just get updates/news stores on the potential sale without all the debate?

I am not interested in wading through tonnes of back and forth about ethics and morality, I just want to be able to quickly see what is going on!
Yes please
 
It's whataboutism, because it's a load of shit used to deflect from another issue. Like a person can only care about one issue at a time. Gun issues in America are an issue, but like I said, NO ONE is saying it's ok to kill kids or black guys. Where as in Qatar, it's the government who has the death penalty on the books for being gay and happy to engage in modern day slavery. Once again, learn the difference between the two issues before you start talking out your chocolate starfish.
Again, pure bullshit. But whatever. You do you. Whatever makes you sleep better at night. Having the death penalty for being gay and enabling it's whole society to wreak havoc with guns are just two different shades of shit. As a government, they could carry out gun reform but they choose not to. Virtue signalling on the straightforward issues whilst turning a blind eye to the difficult but equally important ones is so lame. For all we know the Glazers could be contributing to the NRA. Last time I checked, dead means dead. So whether it's because you're gay in Qatar or a young black guy getting shot by cops or some rednecks because you're in the wrong neighbourhood, it pretty much amounts to the same thing, doesn't it.

Think next time before you post your morality speech.
 
I get this in a way. It's almost like the ultimate cheat code a club of Utd's size and fanbase being state owned. We would be literally unshackled and able to do almost anything transfers, commercially and sports science etc. We would be unstoppable!
Spoken like a true FM muppet
 
Some thoughts on the "US consortium" buyer type.

1. I think we have learned something about what these guys have in mind, looking at how Boehly is handling the Chelsea investment.

2. Chelsea spent 250m under Abramovich in the summer of 2020. A big reason for this was that after the Covid spring, it was felt that nobody else had money to spend and they could get bargains on the transfer market. And they got their targets. They also spent a 120m in 2021. Chelsea FC was not an "under-invested" club when Boehly took over. They are in a bit of a generational change phase, they have a boatload lot of quality on the squad, but they aren't quite taking off. Their coaching has been iffy. Conte is just not good in today's game. They have had issues with the striker position.

With their youth academy, they are in a good position going forward. The last years they have SOLD players for 194m, 83m, 153m, 57m, 124m and 56m.

3. Boehly is not stupid, and neither is the guys he is working with at Chelsea. They are splashing cash, and it will not be effective. We all know it. 293m this summer. They are prepared to spend 120m on Fernandez and 70m on Nkunku. Another 10-15m for Fofana from Molde. Haven't they also swooped up 2-3 big youth players? Another 250m this january? Since take-over to summer transfer window, it could easily add up to 600m if not more. They are reportedly the favorite for Moukokou.

Given "football" inflation, that is at least on par with what Pep was allowed to spend. And when you make this amount of signings, and they are swinging for everyone. Gvardiol? I don't think they have given up on him. We have seen these type of spending sprees before, and while they might work, they are never "effective". Its not sound economics. 2-3 guys work out and become core guys for you, 3-4 end up being rushed players.

4. Why is Boehly running Chelsea in a stupid way? Without any single doubt, success breads success in elite football. How come?
(i) Price money is significantly increasing if you are a winner. The difference between being the impact of being 5th in the PL and not playing in the Champions League and winning the PL and the CL is significant. 150-200m? Sponsorships etc included. Could be more. Real Madrid made a slight -- like 20-30m -- profit last season. They won the double. Huge loss if they finish 3 in the league and is out in the QF in the CL.
(ii) Players want to go to winners. You get a huge discount on signings if you are top 3 in the world.
(iii) You get to buy players, that you otherwise would not be able to get. Endrick is an example. City just signed two strikers that could more or less choose between all top clubs...
(iv) In sports -- confidence, pressure and these things really matter. A winning club is just much more "healthy" than an under-performing player. Your players will develop better, your new signings will do better.
(v) You get a premium when selling players. Managers look at someone playing in a CL final, and attribute them a too high value. Cancelo was just sat for Dalot in the World Cup. Cancelo is great, but "how" great is he? If he went to Tottenham -- he would have a much lower price tag at this point.

5. Look at Manchester City. It has been a very very successful acquisition by Abu Dabi. They are profitable now, somewhat. If Abu D sold them now, they have that awsome youth academy, the City group in place, they wouldn't return to the cellar over night.

-> I think it is very obvious that guys like Boehly -- who 100% is an investor, only is looking for profit -- intends to do it the Manchester City way. I think this is a bit risky, because when Chelsea, City and PSG did it -- they were alone doing it. When you start going in this direction, you cannot stop. Then it will be an enormous loss. Chelsea hit it off with Mourinho and City with Pep -- if City don't get Pep -- it would work out a lot worse for them.

But this is definitely the goal of an "US consortium" spending billions on a PL club right now. This is the business plan. Put the club at the top, reap the rewards. What is their USP? They can provide financial resources others cannot/are not. Spend 500m a year on transfers for 5 years and you will get there, the risk for failing are low. Once you are there, its much harder for everyone else to compete with you.
 
I get this in a way. It's almost like the ultimate cheat code a club of Utd's size and fanbase being state owned. We would be literally unshackled and able to do almost anything transfers, commercially and sports science etc. We would be unstoppable!




This is the way sport and especially the EPL is going now.Bring it on.
 
Some thoughts on the "US consortium" buyer type.

1. I think we have learned something about what these guys have in mind, looking at how Boehly is handling the Chelsea investment.

2. Chelsea spent 250m under Abramovich in the summer of 2020. A big reason for this was that after the Covid spring, it was felt that nobody else had money to spend and they could get bargains on the transfer market. And they got their targets. They also spent a 120m in 2021. Chelsea FC was not an "under-invested" club when Boehly took over. They are in a bit of a generational change phase, they have a boatload lot of quality on the squad, but they aren't quite taking off. Their coaching has been iffy. Conte is just not good in today's game. They have had issues with the striker position.

With their youth academy, they are in a good position going forward. The last years they have SOLD players for 194m, 83m, 153m, 57m, 124m and 56m.

3. Boehly is not stupid, and neither is the guys he is working with at Chelsea. They are splashing cash, and it will not be effective. We all know it. 293m this summer. They are prepared to spend 120m on Fernandez and 70m on Nkunku. Another 10-15m for Fofana from Molde. Haven't they also swooped up 2-3 big youth players? Another 250m this january? Since take-over to summer transfer window, it could easily add up to 600m if not more. They are reportedly the favorite for Moukokou.

Given "football" inflation, that is at least on par with what Pep was allowed to spend. And when you make this amount of signings, and they are swinging for everyone. Gvardiol? I don't think they have given up on him. We have seen these type of spending sprees before, and while they might work, they are never "effective". Its not sound economics. 2-3 guys work out and become core guys for you, 3-4 end up being rushed players.

4. Why is Boehly running Chelsea in a stupid way? Without any single doubt, success breads success in elite football. How come?
(i) Price money is significantly increasing if you are a winner. The difference between being the impact of being 5th in the PL and not playing in the Champions League and winning the PL and the CL is significant. 150-200m? Sponsorships etc included. Could be more. Real Madrid made a slight -- like 20-30m -- profit last season. They won the double. Huge loss if they finish 3 in the league and is out in the QF in the CL.
(ii) Players want to go to winners. You get a huge discount on signings if you are top 3 in the world.
(iii) You get to buy players, that you otherwise would not be able to get. Endrick is an example. City just signed two strikers that could more or less choose between all top clubs...
(iv) In sports -- confidence, pressure and these things really matter. A winning club is just much more "healthy" than an under-performing player. Your players will develop better, your new signings will do better.
(v) You get a premium when selling players. Managers look at someone playing in a CL final, and attribute them a too high value. Cancelo was just sat for Dalot in the World Cup. Cancelo is great, but "how" great is he? If he went to Tottenham -- he would have a much lower price tag at this point.

5. Look at Manchester City. It has been a very very successful acquisition by Abu Dabi. They are profitable now, somewhat. If Abu D sold them now, they have that awsome youth academy, the City group in place, they wouldn't return to the cellar over night.

-> I think it is very obvious that guys like Boehly -- who 100% is an investor, only is looking for profit -- intends to do it the Manchester City way. I think this is a bit risky, because when Chelsea, City and PSG did it -- they were alone doing it. When you start going in this direction, you cannot stop. Then it will be an enormous loss. Chelsea hit it off with Mourinho and City with Pep -- if City don't get Pep -- it would work out a lot worse for them.

But this is definitely the goal of an "US consortium" spending billions on a PL club right now. This is the business plan. Put the club at the top, reap the rewards. What is their USP? They can provide financial resources others cannot/are not. Spend 500m a year on transfers for 5 years and you will get there, the risk for failing are low. Once you are there, its much harder for everyone else to compete with you.
You missed that he’s contractually obliged to spend almost 2bn on ground improvements and transfers etc as part of the deal that got him Chelsea in the first place.
I’d be interested to see what reality is going to look like once that’s expired. Perhaps that’s why they are investing in young players more
 
Would it be possible to create a 2nd thread, similar to the transfer news thread, were we just get updates/news stores on the potential sale without all the debate?

I am not interested in wading through tonnes of back and forth about ethics and morality, I just want to be able to quickly see what is going on!

Exactly. It's boring with the same debate about morality, ethics and whatnot where in reality there is really no right or wrong.
 
Would it be possible to create a 2nd thread, similar to the transfer news thread, were we just get updates/news stores on the potential sale without all the debate?

I am not interested in wading through tonnes of back and forth about ethics and morality, I just want to be able to quickly see what is going on!

Please, can we make this happen?
 
You missed that he’s contractually obliged to spend almost 2bn on ground improvements and transfers etc as part of the deal that got him Chelsea in the first place.
I’d be interested to see what reality is going to look like once that’s expired. Perhaps that’s why they are investing in young players more

Yeah, but I don't really think its relevant to look at it from that perspective. Nobody negotiated with him to get him to spend x million on transfers. Soft values was part of the equation. But in the big picture the bidders were asked to submit a bid -- and -- to describe what they would do with the club. A requirement to go past the first stage was to have a plan for the future that sounded healthy, otherwise you would have been disqualified.
 
Alternatively people can just stop with the morality bullshit chat and use the other oil state thread for that.
 
I don't see how you can just approach this at such a macro level. I must have missed the memo as to what their aims were regarding their use of football for political gain. If you are going to go down that road though, I'm guessing you must have concerns about using products from China etc.?
Yes, of course. Within my means I try to use things as sustainably and fairly sourced as I can, don't you?

I don’t think there’s any resistance to them now. They seem to do whatever they want, regardless.
It’s only Man Utd, they run most of the worlds oil supply and have leading nations sucking them off to get a piece of those billions / trillions. I dont think beating Brighton in round 4 of the FA cup will see them hatch any evil plans on the international community!
The simple argument here is that if it wasn't a benefit to them they wouldn't be willing to throw billions to make it happen. They aren't stupid, they know owning football clubs makes their lives easier.

I wouldn't say that ‘sport washing isn’t a thing and doesn’t work’ — regarding oligarchs and the likes. There it works

But to shame sport fans for being subject to sport washing by Qatar or China and the likes is ridiculous in my opinion — since our governments and business elites have been tripping over themselves to make business with these guys for decades.
Please point me to where I've shamed anyone. This is such a straw man. I don't approve of our government doing it either, so what is that argument about?

A crock can’t make business in the west. Where the oligarch crocks? More or less, right. Buy Chelsea and sit in the stands a few years and sport washing had done it’s thing. North Korea can’t make business in the west. They would need some real washing to get in. But China or Qatar, it’s ridiculous, they are the No 1 on so many speed dials…
Again, same as above. If buying Man Utd didn't benefit them why were they doing it? They're not idiots.
 
Yes, of course. Within my means I try to use things as sustainably and fairly sourced as I can, don't you?


The simple argument here is that if it wasn't a benefit to them they wouldn't be willing to throw billions to make it happen. They aren't stupid, they know owning football clubs makes their lives easier.


Please point me to where I've shamed anyone. This is such a straw man. I don't approve of our government doing it either, so what is that argument about?


Again, same as above. If buying Man Utd didn't benefit them why were they doing it? They're not idiots.
I think it’s a bit sport washing bit more of an ego play. Having Fury v Usyk isn’t going to have them run the political world, they want their country in the main stage.
Isnt it as likely to be a rich man’s play thing than a Trojan horse for world domination?
 
With all due respect to Moses I don't think he qualifies as part of any elite.

Stop throwing silly labels around, especially when incorrectly used. It does nothing to advance your cause/point and if anything the reverse.

My 'World's Best Dad' baseball cap says different.
 
I think it’s a bit sport washing bit more of an ego play. Having Fury v Usyk isn’t going to have them run the political world, they want their country in the main stage.
Isnt it as likely to be a rich man’s play thing than a Trojan horse for world domination?
But you’re perfectly showing the exact point in sportswashing? It’s getting your foot in the door on the big stage. Creating a legion of people who’ll visit for instance, a boxing match, then go home and tell everyone how great you are because you created an artificial environment that appeals. That because you spent 70 million on a fullback supporters of your club will defend you when negative stories come out.

From that position you’re a lot freer of scrutiny because there’s less people scrutinising, even journalists are susceptible to taking a lighter stance if they enjoy their time somewhere. Add in that this sporting property (whether it be an event or a club) will start to appear really high up on search engines over the negative stories.

You’d think just 4 years removed from the Russia World Cup where they “showed” how much more open to the west they are people would realise that sport is very intertwined with the whole geopolitical game.
 
this updates thread is gonna be basically nothing until it’s a done deal
Maybe we can put in the thread title - NO ETHICAL ETC. TALK

Don’t mind if we’re talking about potential investors rumours, hypothetical transfer budgets, etc.
 
Maybe we can put in the thread title - NO ETHICAL ETC. TALK

Don’t mind if we’re talking about potential investors rumours, hypothetical transfer budgets, etc.

Or maybe we create an ethical thread were people can discuss these stuff
 
Yep, the stock will be suspended from trading pending news if anything big happens. I also suspect new buys will take it private

I agree. At least for the short term. It is easier to make certain changes as private company, rather than a public one.
 
Is everyone really expecting this to get done first quarter 2023? Would expect more “chatter & news” surely there’d be at least one journalist who manages to gets a leak or does some investigative journalism and comes up with something.
 
Is everyone really expecting this to get done first quarter 2023? Would expect more “chatter & news” surely there’d be at least one journalist who manages to gets a leak or does some investigative journalism and comes up with something.
Acquisitions tend to be very tight lipped. It's not like a player transfer.
 
Is everyone really expecting this to get done first quarter 2023? Would expect more “chatter & news” surely there’d be at least one journalist who manages to gets a leak or does some investigative journalism and comes up with something.
Finance world is crazy busy at the moment as is the way at the end/start of each quarter. Wouldn’t expect much for another couple of weeks
 
Would it be possible to create a 2nd thread, similar to the transfer news thread, were we just get updates/news stores on the potential sale without all the debate?

I am not interested in wading through tonnes of back and forth about ethics and morality, I just want to be able to quickly see what is going on!

Yeah I end up just coming in here and skimming for tweets then leaving, have no interest in the tired same old same debates right now.
 
Nope. Chelsea sale was made official on the 7th of May. Sky reported on the 25th of March that Boehly was shortlisted, while Woody Jonson and the Saudi Media Group are out of the bidding process. And Chelsea's was an emergency sale. Ours isn't. Dozens, if not hundreds, of people are involved in the process. Someone somewhere would leak something. Just that there has been nothing to leak.
A key thing to remember however is that the UK government were directly involved with the Chelsea sale, given that the club itself were under sanctions and thus required a special license from the government to complete the sale.

As a result, our government was kept up to date with the sale process every step of the way, and if there's one thing we know about the UK government, it's that they leak like a Glaswegian in a telephone box.

It's therefore very likely that once journalists had gained basic information from our government - for example the names of the interested parties - it was then easy for them to directly contact these interested parties and solicit even more information from them.

Ultimately, this created an environment where secrecy for the sale process was a neglected factor, with every party in turn thinking "Well, as the information is/will be in the public domain anyway, it may as well be our spin". Thus, the Chelsea sale developed into a very public process.

So far, there's no indication that any parties within the Manchester United sale process are liable to leaking information in a similar manner, meaning the veil of secrecy for the whole affair is likely to be preserved far more adeptly than was the case for Chelsea's sale.
 
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