Club Sale | It’s done!

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Andycoleno9 said:
That clearly means that "old" dept will stay. On the other hand all stories regarding Qatari bid say that they WILL clear the dept. But again, Jassim didn't (i think) said it in his statement.
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It's certainly an interpretation. Not much else though.

Other reports suggested the debt transfering to Ineos, which could be interpreted as no longer being on the club. Depending on you tendancy to use the word rat when describing certain bidders I'd imagine :wenger:
 
Rightnr said:
If anyone who thinks City will get relegated and everyone will get a fair crack at competing for the PL is delusional btw.

Some of you people live firmly with your head in the sand.
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It's nice to imagine positive things though.
 
Andycoleno9 said:
Not relegated but IF they will be found guilty then they will get point deduction.
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And their old titles, current players and fake revenue?

The fox is firmly in the hen house and anything stopping us from competing is relegating the PL to farmer's league level, with the explicit permission of its participants, the bloody hypocrites that they are.

JagUTD said:
It's nice to imagine positive things though.
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I'd much rather Qatar comes in and fixed the club. Then we can be run sustainably after 15 years of damage has been corrected.
 
Rightnr said:
And their old titles, current players and fake revenue?

The fox is firmly in the hen house and anything stopping us from competing is relegating the PL to farmer's league level, with the explicit permission of its participants, the bloody hypocrites that they are.
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Sounds like we need to find ourselves a hound.
 
JPRouve said:
Not exactly. There is more competition for the caliber of player we want because they are not as common and we don't have a particular advantage out our level or the level we want to reach. What I mean by that is that Brighton maximizing is picking a player out of +20 similar players for United maximizing their resources is picking a player out of maybe 5 similar players if the position is deep.

In sport the higher you get the more difficult it is to improve.
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I agree with the logic but that's not the reason we have underperformed. If we took Brightons approach and tweaked for a combination of gems and established talent (because we can), we would get much more quality through the door.

Same goes for their appointments in managers. We have been chopping and changing philosophy because of a lack of direction and also non footballing factors impacting transfers.
 
Moriarty said:
Malcolm Glazer was prohibited from buying an American sports team by way of a leveraged buyout but there were no such laws in place in the UK.
Remember when Sky wanted to buy us? The government of the day was bloody fast enough then to put the kibosh on that deal but they were happy enough to see a major club like United shoulder the debt of a carpetbagger like Glazer? It still beggars belief and it has been years since it happened.

Do you think City will be demoted? I honestly can't see it.

.
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I've said it here before.
I think some palms were greased for the FA to allow what the Glazers did.

It would take some fancy footwork for the FA not to relegate them.

But noting would surprise me about the FA.
 
Rightnr said:
What you are saying is technically correct and I detest the Glazers as much as anyone but using the open market valuation is a bit of a red herring to me (I remember you had a background in finance, so feel free to disagree).

Why do I think that? Because whatever Qatar offers/the Glazers get for United, the public stock price will catch up to eventually. Just like how it works in takeovers where the premium (around 20/30%) gets priced in due course. That's why the stock rose up from doldrums in the first place after so many years of mismanagement.

If the offer was $7bn for the whole club but most of this went to the Glazers, the I can see it being successful. So something like $55/share for the Glazer shares and $25/share for the open market shares makes more sense to me. That gets you to $25x50m + $55x110m for overall valuation of just over $7bn. Obviously, this not including debt is also outrageous but the Glazers just don't care.

Investment and other stuff like that is completely irrelevant to the greedy leeches, unless fan pressure counts for anything with the Glazers (it hasn't so far) or the government applies a bit of pressure in anticipation of the Qatari investment.
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Your correct both SJ and SJR can offer more for Glazer shares as they have 10 times the voting power, They would have normally 6 weeks to buy the remaining 50 million A class after buying 113 million class A and B Glazer shares, remember not all Glazer shares are B just the majority. Let’s say they offer $45 to the. Glazers As some are A shares but combined they get $45 would be $5.1 billion. Which leaves SJ offer of probably the peak at $28 for the remaining which is about $1.4bn coincidentally a total of $6.5bn or £5.2bn, highly rumoured to be the bid. The $7 billion rumour to actually get the deal done makes much more sense now. They however must offer a premium for the existing clubs 31% shares after a deal is done for buying controlling shares.

SJR does not need to worry about this he can just offer $43 per share for the Glazers 113m shares would equate to $4.85bn for 69% but does A deal for just 51% he would have to buy 84 million of the Glazers shares mostly from Darcy, Edward, Kevin and Bryan with a small amount from Avram and Joel would cost him $3.612 billion, he can offer slightly less because Joel and Avram keeping 20% is his vanity pitch. If SJR has bid more per voting share then SJ bid is over or he will be told by inside man to bid more or adjust his bid.
 
SmallCaine said:
Its unbelievable people still trust journos on this, they haven't even been able to clarify with any certainty if the offers being made are 5bn for the whole club or 5bn for the glazer's share.
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I am not into this sort of business but common sense say that its for the Glazer's share

a- The Glazers do not care less about shares that they don't own
b- Raine Group can't negotiate on shares that the Glazers don't own
c- There's no guarantee that the price of both group of shares will align. In fact the shares floating on the stock market are worth less then the ones own by the Glazers

In simple terms lets say that you want to sell a car for £3000. This car is located in a rented garage which is also on sale (let's say for 30k) and is owned by a different owner. Now Imagine I come in and I tell you that I will give you £2k for the car but I'm also buying the garage for £40k. I'd insist that the deal is done concurrently and I also add to the bid any extras I am planning to add to the vehicle after I'll buy it. Best case scenario you'll tell me that you're only interested in selling your car and you can't be arsed about further deals. Worse case scenario you'll send me to feck off because I'm short charging you while concurrently giving more money to the garage owner.
 
Red Dreams said:
I've said it here before.
I think some palms were greased for the FA to allow what the Glazers did.

It would take some fancy footwork for the FA not to relegate them.

But noting would surprise me about the FA.
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You're probably right. Gill certainly did a quick U-turn didn't he? From "debt is the road to ruin" to standing against the supporters who were protesting the Glazers. Funny old world isn't it?

The FA are all bluster. City will run rings round them.
 
Rightnr said:
If that Qatar bid delivers only 3.5bn to the Glazers, I cannot see it working. It is indeed a world record bid given the full club valuation but it'd be pretty amateur if Qatar have valued the Glazer shares the same as the ones being traded publicly on the stock exchange.

They may well have done that but I just don't see the rats accepting. Then there's the question of the Ratcliffe valuation because that's even less clear.
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I don't think they have, they have put in a separate figure being offered to the Glazers (sellers) according to various tweets. It would be idiotic to treat the Class B shares equally with worthless Class A shares on the market. If I was SJ, I would offer £4bn for the Glazers shares and then offer to buy the rest at the price they are worth now or just ignore them whilst diluting their holdings via Rights Issues each time I want to invest fresh capital.

Currently it's not necessary to bicker over EV and the like. Just tell the Glazers I am paying this much for your shares and then maintain them as Class B, never pay dividends and focus on rebuilding the club.
 
devilish said:
I am not into this sort of business but common sense say that its for the Glazer's share

a- The Glazers do not care less about shares that they don't own
b- Raine Group can't negotiate on shares that the Glazers don't own
c- There's no guarantee that the price of both group of shares will align. In fact the shares floating on the stock market are worth less then the ones own by the Glazers

In simple terms lets say that you want to sell a car for £3000. This car is located in a rented garage which is also on sale (let's say for 30k) and is owned by a different owner. Now Imagine I come in and I tell you that I will give you £2k for the car but I'm also buying the garage for £40k. I'd insist that the deal is done concurrently and I also add to the bid any extras I am planning to add to the vehicle after I'll buy it. Best case scenario you'll tell me that you're only interested in selling your car and you can't be arsed about further deals. Worse case scenario you'll send me to feck off because I'm short charging you while concurrently giving more money to the garage owner.
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I get that raine can't sell the non glazer shares but we don't really know how the bids have gone in. It could be a straight we'll pay 5bn for your shares or it could be we think club is worth 5bn, so here's your share of it. The fact is that nothing in the whole bid process has been actual information, just pr statements for the 3 sides. I would not trust anything from the media until the leeches or raine make official statements.
 
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devilish said:
I am not into this sort of business but common sense say that its for the Glazer's share

a- The Glazers do not care less about shares that they don't own
b- Raine Group can't negotiate on shares that the Glazers don't own
c- There's no guarantee that the price of both group of shares will align. In fact the shares floating on the stock market are worth less then the ones own by the Glazers

In simple terms lets say that you want to sell a car for £3000. This car is located in a rented garage which is also on sale (let's say for 30k) and is owned by a different owner. Now Imagine I come in and I tell you that I will give you £2k for the car but I'm also buying the garage for £40k. I'd insist that the deal is done concurrently and I also add to the bid any extras I am planning to add to the vehicle after I'll buy it. Best case scenario you'll tell me that you're only interested in selling your car and you can't be arsed about further deals. Worse case scenario you'll send me to feck off because I'm short charging you while concurrently giving more money to the garage owner.
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Sales are always done by valuing the whole entity not just the shares of the controlling party, so if the offer is for 5bn then that would be for the whole club.
 
MancunianAngels said:
Spot on.

My dad maintains that aside from 99 and 93, watching United in the second division in 74/75 was his best time watching United. Relegation reinvigorated the club after it stagnated after the European Cup win in 68.
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They played fantastic football in that one season in the 2nd Division. Free flowing free scoring team. Attack! Attack! Attack!
 
AneRu said:
I don't think they have, they have put in a separate figure being offered to the Glazers (sellers) according to various tweets. It would be idiotic to treat the Class B shares equally with worthless Class A shares on the market. If I was SJ, I would offer £4bn for the Glazers shares and then offer to buy the rest at the price they are worth now or just ignore them whilst diluting their holdings via Rights Issues each time I want to invest fresh capital.

Currently it's not necessary to bicker over EV and the like. Just tell the Glazers I am paying this much for your shares and then maintain them as Class B, never pay dividends and focus on rebuilding the club.
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I think your on the right track but the company is registered in the Caymen island and I think there is something called a forced buy out rule under Caymen island law which means SJ must make an offer one month after he completes purchasing controlling shares and the existing 31% of shareholder will have to accept providing they are offered a small uplift in the current share price, he has between 90 and 180 days to do this so this will not effect his ability to control the club or make the club private before Xmas 2023.

The shares will go up however if he completes the purchase in the next month considerably.
 
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AneRu said:
I don't think they have, they have put in a separate figure being offered to the Glazers (sellers) according to various tweets. It would be idiotic to treat the Class B shares equally with worthless Class A shares on the market. If I was SJ, I would offer £4bn for the Glazers shares and then offer to buy the rest at the price they are worth now or just ignore them whilst diluting their holdings via Rights Issues each time I want to invest fresh capital.

Currently it's not necessary to bicker over EV and the like. Just tell the Glazers I am paying this much for your shares and then maintain them as Class B, never pay dividends and focus on rebuilding the club.
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By all accounts based on the information out yesterday evening from various sources, including Simon Stone, they offered £5bn for the Glazer shares. That sounded a monster offer but was what I would imagine make it difficult even for the rats to turn down.

As it is now, I don't know what to think/believe, so will just wait it out.
 
SmallCaine said:
I didn't mention busby that was a different time and even he spent a record fee to get Dennis Law to utd. Our success was built on spending big money its not the only thing but it is a substantial part of it, are you really trying to say it wasn't? Yes Giggs and other class of 92 were important for our dominance in 90's, you know who else were Gary Pallister, Roy Keane and Andy Cole all of them british record signings when signed for utd. Same for 2000's, we wouldn't have had the success we had without likes of Rio Berba or rooney, 2 of those 3 record signings. Are people really trying to rewrite history and imagine us being leicester of 90's and 2000's? We had money and we spent it well, thats why we won things and the players we developed stuck around because we could pay well and win trophies.
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I really don't know why this is even in dispute.

We have always been historically biggest spenders for as long as I can remember... With the exception of the last few years. We have broken more British transfer records than any other club in the league going back 70years. The exception being the class of 94 era saved us hundreds of millions and will probably never happen again.
 
Woziak said:
I think your on the right track but the company is registered in the Camen island and I think there is something called a forced buy out rule under Camen island law which means SJ must make an offer one month after he completes purchasing controlling shares and the existing 31% of shareholder will have to accept providing they are offered a small uplift in the current share price, he has between 90 and 180 days to do this so this will not effect his ability to control the club or make the club private before Xmas 2023.

The shares will go up however if he completes the purchase in the next month considerably.
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Is that similar to the 30% rule in the UK then?

What's the percentage threshold in the Caymen Islands?
 
SmallCaine said:
I get that raine can't sell the non glazer shares but we don't really know how the bids have gone in. It could be a straight we'll pay 5bn for your shares or it could be we think club is worth 5bn, so here's your share of it. The fact is that nothing in the whole bid process has been actual information, just pr statements for the 3 sides. I would not trust anything from the media until the leeches or raine make official statements.
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Cassidy said:
Sales are always done by valuing the whole entity not just the shares of the controlling party, so if the offer is for 5bn then that would be for the whole club.
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But how would that work though? The Glazers own Class B shares while the rest are Class A shares. The former are worth way more then the latter. Thus how will the cake be cut out accordingly? Will Class A shares be bought according to their share price? Will Class B shares be diluted to Class A shares in according to voting rights (ie 1 Class B share becomes 10 Class A share?). What happens if the shares floating in the stock market suddenly go at an all time high? Will the Glazers get less money?

It makes way more sense that Raine are negotiating the shares that the Glazers actually own and the rest are bought in a separate deal.
 
devilish said:
But how would that work though? The Glazers own Class B shares while the rest are Class A shares. The former are worth way more then the latter. Thus how is the cake going to be cut out accordingly? Will Class A shares be bought according to the share price? Will Class B shares be diluted to Class A shares in according to voting rights (ie 1 Class B share becomes 10 Class A share?). What happens if the shares floating in the stock market suddenly go at an all time high? Will the Glazers get less money?

It makes way more sense that Raine are negotiating the shares that the Glazers actually own and the rest are bought in a separate deal.
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I never said that the shares would be treated equal, only that the offer will be a figure which values the club as a whole, that is how these deals are done, United will be no different.
How it shakes out on completion who knows, its said the offer includes a figure which goes to the Glazers anyway which isn't the offer figure, the offer figure will be the whole deal based on the value of the club as a whole
 
sglowrider said:
I really don't know why this is even in dispute.

We have always been historically biggest spenders for as long as I can remember... With the exception of the last few years. We have broken more British transfer records than any other club in the league going back 70years. The exception being the class of 94 era saved us hundreds of millions and will probably never happen again.
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If memory serves, Matt bought only two £100,000 players: Law and Morgan. He was notoriously tight-fisted when it came to paying wages, going as far as trying to gyp Frank O'Farrell out of a portion of his salary. I wonder how Matt would have felt about the Glazer takeover? I know he died in 1994 but I think he would have moved heaven and earth to keep United out of their hands.
 
Spoony said:
Ben Jacobs is brilliant, he's covering all bases. My hero.
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To be fair to him (I don't know why anyone would be fair to him as he appears to be a Twitter no-mark, but anyway), neither he nor anyone else knows what is going to happen, so anyone proclaiming option A is more likely than option B is largely talking out of their arse. Your only strategy as a commentator on this sale is fence sitting / base covering. Even the Glazers themselves may not know what is going to happen.
 
JagUTD said:
Funny then that those critical minds seem to lose that ability when it comes to other bids.
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Does it though? Or do they just not care the same way you do? Is there anybody pretending that Qatar aren’t in it for publicity and sports washing?
 
acnumber9 said:
Does it though? Or do they just not care the same way you do? Is there anybody pretending that Qatar aren’t in it for publicity and sports washing?
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Some people won't admit that Qatar are in this at all (rather, it's a 40 year old little-known banker and United fan who has found £7bn down the back of his sofa).
 
Infra-red said:
To be fair to him (I don't know why anyone would be fair to him as he appears to be a Twitter no-mark, but anyway), neither he nor anyone else knows what is going to happen, so anyone proclaiming option A is more likely than option B is largely talking out of their arse. Your only strategy as a commentator on this sale is fence sitting / base covering. Even the Glazers themselves may not know what is going to happen.
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Yeah but he's on fan channels almost billed as an ITK. He'd make a brilliant medium though.
 
devilish said:
But how would that work though? The Glazers own Class B shares while the rest are Class A shares. The former are worth way more then the latter. Thus how will the cake be cut out accordingly? Will Class A shares be bought according to their share price? Will Class B shares be diluted to Class A shares in according to voting rights (ie 1 Class B share becomes 10 Class A share?). What happens if the shares floating in the stock market suddenly go at an all time high? Will the Glazers get less money?

It makes way more sense that Raine are negotiating the shares that the Glazers actually own and the rest are bought in a separate deal.
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However, as soon as the class b shares a transferred from Glazers they turn in to class A shares. Thus the shake will have to buy them at the same valuation (also due to minority rules). The amount discussed is most likely the valuation for 100% of the club (31% traded public is still 31% of the club) and the glazers will get 69% of that.

The pledged investment of 0.8 billion pound sounds like clearing the debt. The amount is to low to represent rebuilding OT, to high for carrington and would likely buy only ~60% of Mbappe.
 
Infra-red said:
Some people won't admit that Qatar are in this at all (rather, it's a 40 year old little-known banker and United fan who has found £7bn down the back of his sofa).
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I think its little more then 5b mate
 
webbthepostie said:
Thanks for this, didn't know you were Maltese. You're absolutely correct that Fergie understood the importance of community and connection to the fans which was a huge contribution to the identity of the club. This is why I find it so hard to understand anyone wanting to discard those values in exchange for a better chance of some silverware.
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Ferguson was a foreigner
 
JagUTD said:
Is that similar to the 30% rule in the UK then?

What's the percentage threshold in the Caymen Islands?
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I think your find it’s identical yes not 100% so on the percentage, this will also be inserted in the ‘article of association’ knowing the glazers, where a ‘Fair Price’ will need to offered for 28 days. They registered the club in the Caymen Islands for multiple reasons, this was obviously one as well as the huge tax benefits.
 
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devilish said:
Ben Jacobs had just spoken with gong man Sam. Basically according to him

a- Jassim's offer might be better, equal or worse then that of SJR
b- SJR might or might keep the Glazers in place
c- The Glazers might go for Jassim, SJR, a minority stake or go solo
d- One of the buyers might or might ask a private equity for help
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Expect he’s right too
 
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