City and Financial Doping | Charged by PL with numerous FFP breaches | Hearing begins 16th September 2024

grahamo said:
Everyone saying city have great lawyers and will negotiate their way out of the mess. I'm sure the premier league's lawyers are no slouches.
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It's just folk over egging their knowledge of the law, and watching too many episodes of suits.

End of the day, facts are facts, if it's their in black and white, they are screwed. They where even guilty with CAS, after losing the UEFA case. They got off with it on a technicality. They are also over 100+ breaches, and then another 5 years to now where they won't even provide the info. The same oul issue being that they no forthcoming with information. They are clearly guilty.


Could have the brightest legal minds going, but you can't argue facts, and possibly tax evasion etc
 
Flexdegea said:
It's just folk over egging their knowledge of the law, and watching too many episodes of suits.

End of the day, facts are facts, if it's their in black and white, they are screwed. They where even guilty with CAS, after losing the UEFA case. They got off with it on a technicality. They are also over 100+ breaches, and then another 5 years to now where they won't even provide the info. The same oul issue being that they no forthcoming with information. They are clearly guilty.


Could have the brightest legal minds going, but you can't argue facts, and possibly tax evasion etc
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It’s not just that. City got busted once already and had their UCL ban revoked and fine reduced on appeal. There’s pretty good reason to be skeptical.

Although this time I do think the crimes are too severe for it to be brushed under the carpet. They’re fecked.
 
If they get found guilty and punished by premier league could they also be sued by other clubs? Several clubs could say they missed out on revenue from league titles and champions league qualification
 
And to think, if Der Spiegel hadn't hacked any emails we wouldn't have had any of this come to light.
 
Flexdegea said:
It's just folk over egging their knowledge of the law, and watching too many episodes of suits.

End of the day, facts are facts, if it's their in black and white, they are screwed. They where even guilty with CAS, after losing the UEFA case. They got off with it on a technicality. They are also over 100+ breaches, and then another 5 years to now where they won't even provide the info. The same oul issue being that they no forthcoming with information. They are clearly guilty.


Could have the brightest legal minds going, but you can't argue facts, and possibly tax evasion etc
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Congrats for calling out others for over-egging their legal/financial knowledge and then doing exactly that yourself!
 
jm99 said:
I think the thing is, by this point city are a legitimately big club. While we'll all go haha city, they've had a decade of success in a league with massive TV revenues, how they got to this point, has clearly involved financial cheating, but right now I can't imagine they can't attract genuine sponsorships sufficient to keep them self sustaining
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They are still heavily reliant on Abu Dhabi's money. They are not profitable as it is now. If you take out the fake sponsorships & wage subsidies provided by Abu Dhabi they would still be posting huge losses as they were in the early stages of the takeover.

The Etihad deal went up by £30 Mill alone last season. There was talk before they signed the new deal that they were looking to end the partnership & accept bids from other parties. It would be safe to assume that no other bids materialised that matched Etihads existing payments let alone a £30 Mill increase.
 
KiD MoYeS said:
And to think, if Der Spiegel hadn't hacked any emails we wouldn't have had any of this come to light.
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One thing that interests me is whether that info will be allowed to be used. I assume it will, but if the act of hacking is illegal can you use illegally gained information to punish someone? I really don’t know if you can. And as I say, I also don’t know if what DS did was even legal. It may or may not be.
 
Tarrou said:
It’s not just that. City got busted once already and had their UCL ban revoked and fine reduced on appeal. There’s pretty good reason to be skeptical.

Although this time I do think the crimes are too severe for it to be brushed under the carpet. They’re fecked.
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Yeah that's true but as I say that was a technicality, time bar issue, which is impossible to get this time.

This story is huge, they are getting some form of punishment. I'd imagine the main thing that will come of this, they be under more spotlight now going forward, which will massively affect how they've been operating all these years.
 
ExecutionerWasp001 said:
They are still heavily reliant on Abu Dhabi's money. They are not profitable as it is now. If you take out the fake sponsorships & wage subsidies provided by Abu Dhabi they would still be posting huge losses as they were in the early stages of the takeover.

The Etihad deal went up by £30 Mill alone last season. There was talk before they signed the new deal that they were looking to end the partnership & accept bids from other parties. It would be safe to assume that no other bids materialised that matched Etihads existing payments let alone a £30 Mill increase.
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They'd have to reign in the spending and probably settle for being title challengers rather than clear favourites every year, but they wouldn't go back to midtable without the oil money now
 
NicolaSacco said:
Congrats for calling out others for over-egging their legal/financial knowledge and then doing exactly that yourself!
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I don't have a legal mind. Was just starting facts from the previous cases. I mean facts are facts, that is what this will be based on. If they facts aren't in the premier league side then legal para could prob win it for city :lol:

Sorry for going all QC Kavanagh on ya.
 
Flexdegea said:
Yeah that's true but as I say that was a technicality, time bar issue, which is impossible to get this time.

This story is huge, they are getting some form of punishment. I'd imagine the main thing that will come of this, they be under more spotlight now going forward, which will massively affect how they've been operating all these years.
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If found guilty I’d make an uneducated guess the choice will be between a points deduction and a demotion. That’s a big IF.

If it’s points then it may simply deny them CL for a season, or give them CL but deny them a title.
 
jm99 said:
I think the thing is, by this point city are a legitimately big club. While we'll all go haha city, they've had a decade of success in a league with massive TV revenues, how they got to this point, has clearly involved financial cheating, but right now I can't imagine they can't attract genuine sponsorships sufficient to keep them self sustaining
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Their refusal to co operate with the investigation or produce any sort of documentation or evidence from 2018 onwards certainly suggests that dubious activities are ongoing. Not to mention posting higher revenues than the likes of Real Madrid and ourselves in the last year...
 
Flexdegea said:
I don't have a legal mind. Was just starting facts from the previous cases. I mean facts are facts, that is what this will be based on. If they facts aren't in the premier league side then legal para could prob win it for city :lol:

Sorry for going all QC Kavanagh on ya.
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I don’t have one either. I would assume that both camps have a few tricks up their sleeves and we’ll end up being thrown a curve ball or two before this is over.

I only say that because I struggle to believe the PL would do this without a strong case, but I equally struggle to believe that City’s lawyers have not spent years war-gaming scenarios exactly like this, and so will probably feel pretty confident too.

The only thing I’d bet on is that this won’t be quick. Not this season or next season.
 
jm99 said:
They'd have to reign in the spending and probably settle for being title challengers rather than clear favourites every year, but they wouldn't go back to midtable without the oil money now
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Depends. If they are forced to fairly fight for their top 4 spot, they still have to contend with Arsenal, Liverpool, Chelsea and us who dwarf them in revenue (if we exclude the shady deals). Even Tottenham would be larger than them.
 
Kylar Stern said:
Their refusal to co operate with the investigation or produce any sort of documentation or evidence from 2018 onwards certainly suggests that dubious activities are ongoing. Not to mention posting higher revenues than the likes of Real Madrid and ourselves in the last year...
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They're still inflating it so they can be the strongest team in the league, and probably paying players under the table which is why de bruyne, aguero, Silva, kompany etc never asked to leave for real or Barca during their primes
 
jm99 said:
They'd have to reign in the spending and probably settle for being title challengers rather than clear favourites every year, but they wouldn't go back to midtable without the oil money now
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Depends I guess if they could secure deals or I wonder would they be viewed as tainted and shunned?

If it was simply "cut related party deals" and they went on BAU and we're able to secure other legitimate sponsorship, then you're defo right. They'd still be one of the top dogs financially in the PL.
 
jm99 said:
I think the thing is, by this point city are a legitimately big club. While we'll all go haha city, they've had a decade of success in a league with massive TV revenues, how they got to this point, has clearly involved financial cheating, but right now I can't imagine they can't attract genuine sponsorships sufficient to keep them self sustaining
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Clearly bigger contracts than they could pre-Abu Dhabi but they're still essentially a Championship-sized club artificially competing well above their station.

Yes, they'll have appeal as Premier League club competing in Europe, but should be on par with the likes of Spurs/Newcastle at best
 
Lentwood said:
Clearly bigger contracts than they could pre-Abu Dhabi but they're still essentially a Championship-sized club artificially competing well above their station.

Yes, they'll have appeal as Premier League club competing in Europe, but should be on par with the likes of Spurs/Newcastle at best
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No, they'd be top 4 comfortably, their position means they always get a massive amount of the tv rights share, they generally progress a decent amount in the CL, your size is generally based on global rather than domestic appeal, and City's decade of success will have appealed to a lot of global fans, they wouldn't be blowing past 90 points every year, but they'd be title challengers
 
Edwards6 said:
If they get found guilty and punished by premier league could they also be sued by other clubs? Several clubs could say they missed out on revenue from league titles and champions league qualification
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It would be hard to quantify what teams actually lost out on. Just giving the titles to runners up of City is a bit of a slippery slope for me.

For example, while Liverpool finished 2nd and us 3rd in 2014, does Brendan beat Jose to the title if it was between them? Would Ole have held out with Klopp chasing him if the title pressure was on his shoulders? I think we can almost safely say Klopp and Fergie would have won and probably Jose aswell but I'm not really sure about just handing retrospective titles to second place.
 
They need to throw the book at them this time and relegate them to the Championship
 
Reallocating titles retroactively is only really done in cases where the winning club directly manipulated the results of matches through things like matchfixing or bribing referees.

Relegation is the heaviest punishment one can realistically expect, but a points deduction is more probable.
 
Dansk said:
Reallocating titles retroactively is only really done in cases where the winning club directly manipulated the results of matches through things like matchfixing or bribing referees.

Relegation is the heaviest punishment one can realistically expect, but a points deduction is more probable.
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Hey I will take points deduction
 
jm99 said:
No, they'd be top 4 comfortably, their position means they always get a massive amount of the tv rights share, they generally progress a decent amount in the CL, your size is generally based on global rather than domestic appeal, and City's decade of success will have appealed to a lot of global fans, they wouldn't be blowing past 90 points every year, but they'd be title challengers
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Would they be in a few years if their commercial revenue was reduced to where it should be which is in line with Chelsea & Arsenal. City generated nearly £170m more then Arsenal last year which is ridiculous, take that out and City will be back struggling to make top 4.
 
Kicked out of the league? as in, not relegated but excluded from english football?
They would then what join one of the failing leagues?
 
DanClancy said:
Would they be in a few years if their commercial revenue was reduced to where it should be which is in line with Chelsea & Arsenal. City generated nearly £170m more then Arsenal last year which is ridiculous, take that out and City will be back struggling to make top 4.
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Well Chelsea and arsenal regularly do make the top 4 so yes, they would
 
jm99 said:
No, they'd be top 4 comfortably, their position means they always get a massive amount of the tv rights share, they generally progress a decent amount in the CL, your size is generally based on global rather than domestic appeal, and City's decade of success will have appealed to a lot of global fans, they wouldn't be blowing past 90 points every year, but they'd be title challengers
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I have never met a City fan outside of Manchester. There's a reason they can't even fill their own medium-sized stadium half the time. Nobody gives a shit about the club. Yesterday's release about all of this didn't even make the news in Denmark, one of the countries outside the UK that most follows English football. City's one and only point of relevancy is their recent/current ability to compete for trophies. If that's taken from them, they are literally nothing, as they were before they became a sportswashing vehicle for a human rights nightmare.
 
Tarrou said:
It’s not just that. City got busted once already and had their UCL ban revoked and fine reduced on appeal. There’s pretty good reason to be skeptical.

Although this time I do think the crimes are too severe for it to be brushed under the carpet. They’re fecked.
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That was on a technicality, not because they were innocent.
 
Looks like the majority of the Premier League want them gone. Great to see. Honestly if they are found guilty they have to be relegated.
 
Bluelion7 said:
I did t miss the point: I said they should be punished … but for lying, fraud, etc.

I said it was stupid of them to create false business fronts and break the law (because they probably did break general, non footballing law in doing this), because they should have just challenged FFP directly.
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Regardless of what you think they should have done. The point is what they did, which was cheat, lie and try to cover up.
 
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