City and Financial Doping | Charged by PL with numerous FFP breaches | Hearing begins 16th September 2024

Murder on Zidane's Floor said:
I imagine City make sure they get their transfer fees in one go, i.e. a one time payment, whereas they amortize their outlays, meaning they can stay under FFP?
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That is how all transfers work for FFP. An incoming transfer is amortised over the length of the players contract.

So if you are a £100m player on a 5 year contract, it is booked as £20m a season.

Whereas if you sell a player for £100m, you can account for that in full straight away regardless of instalments and payment terms.
 
Andrew Wolf said:
That is how all transfers work for FFP. An incoming transfer is amortised over the length of the players contract.

So if you are a £100m player on a 5 year contract, it is booked as £20m a season.

Whereas if you sell a player for £100m, you can account for that in full straight away regardless of instalments and payment terms.
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So hypothetically speaking they could pay Grealish's transfer fee by selling academy players for £20m a season assuming the payment plan to Villa is spread over 5 years?
 
Murder on Zidane's Floor said:
I imagine City make sure they get their transfer fees in one go, i.e. a one time payment, whereas they amortize their outlays, meaning they can stay under FFP?
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Greyfog said:
So hypothetically speaking they could pay Grealish's transfer fee by selling academy players for £20m a season assuming the payment plan to Villa is spread over 5 years?
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The actual structure of payments (e.g. cash going from one club to another) has no impact on FFP whatsoever.
 
ROFLUTION said:
Considering that the leaks say they have a huge network of feeder club with talents where agents get paid on the side, it’s notan unfeasible thought. Not sure how it works exactly but 19m for a youth player can make you spend 100m in the new rules I think?

With all City’s youth players where many have big potential, it’s quite clear they will have an easy time under the new rules. Also just by having spend much on academy without that being cheating. But of course the system benefits the mega-rich who can pull such setups.
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For one season. Over time 19m for a youth player will allow you to spend 19m.
 
NotThatSoph said:
For one season. Over time 19m for a youth player will allow you to spend 19m.
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That will bend a few minds who were just beginning to think they understood the mechanics of FFP.

It's all a lot of kicking the can down the road.
 


Absolutely crazy the fee's they get.

At least he's a full international (for Northern Ireland... but still)
 
Annihilate Now! said:


Absolutely crazy the fee's they get.

At least he's a full international (for Northern Ireland... but still)
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Haven't they a bit of a history of sending average youngsters to Southampton for surprisingly high fees? I swear they took two keepers off them (Gunn and another?)
 
Annihilate Now! said:
?? I'm mean mispelled but it's obvious I'm talking about Gavin Bazunu? Who is crap... literally the worst Save % in the league last year.
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How often do you watch Southampton, or Bazunu for that matter? Did McCarthy do any better when he came in to the team instead?

I wouldn't judge Bazunu on one season with the worst defence in the league in front of him. There's a reason he was Portsmouth's player of the season the year before and why he's also Ireland's number one.
 
Zebs said:
How often do you watch Southampton, or Bazunu for that matter? Did McCarthy do any better when he came in to the team instead?

I wouldn't judge Bazunu on one season with the worst defence in the league in front of him. There's a reason he was Portsmouth's player of the season the year before and why he's also Ireland's number one.
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McCarthy did worse on a per 90 basis, but it really can't be understated how horrifically bad Bazunu was:



Bazunu put up a shot-stopping season significantly worse than Kepa at his nadir. Post shot xG also limits the impact of the defense - so on the best metric we have to measure solely the impact of stopping shots, Bazunu cost his team almost 17 goals last year in 32 matches by himself - yikes!
 
TheMagicFoolBus said:
McCarthy did worse on a per 90 basis, but it really can't be understated how horrifically bad Bazunu was:



Bazunu put up a shot-stopping season significantly worse than Kepa at his nadir. Post shot xG also limits the impact of the defense - so on the best metric we have to measure solely the impact of stopping shots, Bazunu cost his team almost 17 goals last year in 32 matches by himself - yikes!
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I know he had a poor season, I'm not denying that. But it's a bit much to call a 20yo keeper "absolutely crap" after one poor season. Guarantee he's back in the PL next season (24/25) with or without Southampton.
 
Zebs said:
I know he had a poor season, I'm not denying that. But it's a bit much to call a 20yo keeper "absolutely crap" after one poor season. Guarantee he's back in the PL next season (24/25) with or without Southampton.
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Sure - don't necessarily disagree with you there. But there's a lot of work he's going to have to do to rehabilitate his reputation - case in point the guy who's ranked third on that list who still is automatically assumed to be awful by many. Obviously Bazunu doesn't have the pricetag burden to the same extent and he has youth on his side, but I do think he'll have to improve mightily on last year's performance in the Championship to be considered for a PL berth in 24/25 regardless of what happens with Southampton.
 
Zebs said:
How often do you watch Southampton, or Bazunu for that matter? Did McCarthy do any better when he came in to the team instead?

I wouldn't judge Bazunu on one season with the worst defence in the league in front of him. There's a reason he was Portsmouth's player of the season the year before and why he's also Ireland's number one.
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There's a big step up from League one to the Premier League though and the only reason he's Irelands number one is because none of his rivals for the position play regularly.
 
The City guys are infiltrating many clubs now, Southampton have appointed some ex-City employees in crucial positions lately.

Leicester will probably be next in dropping some serious money on City players no one heard of.
 
Bans and relegation is not enough. Someone has to do time for this level of fraud and cheating.
 
Idxomer said:
The City guys are infiltrating many clubs now, Southampton have appointed some ex-City employees in crucial positions lately.

Leicester will probably be next in dropping some serious money on City players no one heard of.
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I think there's a need for stepping back a bit and thinking things through rationally with regards to this kind of post, City are cheats but why do you think this is dodgey?

Wilcox isn't some kind of City sleeper agent, he was a Director at their academy and so will know a) who the best young players are and b) who they don't think will make it to the first team and is for sale. £10m plus add ons is not a big fee. Not everything needs a tin foil hat, that's what RAWK is for.
 
tomaldinho1 said:
I think there's a need for stepping back a bit and thinking things through rationally with regards to this kind of post, City are cheats but why do you think this is dodgey?

Wilcox isn't some kind of City sleeper agent, he was a Director at their academy and so will know a) who the best young players are and b) who they don't think will make it to the first team and is for sale. £10m plus add ons is not a big fee. Not everything needs a tin foil hat, that's what RAWK is for.
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Does this kid even have first team experience though?

We sold Garner, who had about 100 professional games under his belt last year to a premier league team for less than £10m.

You can't be surprised that people are suspicious of the fees they get for their random youth players while we get pittance for ours.
 
tomaldinho1 said:
I think there's a need for stepping back a bit and thinking things through rationally with regards to this kind of post, City are cheats but why do you think this is dodgey?

Wilcox isn't some kind of City sleeper agent, he was a Director at their academy and so will know a) who the best young players are and b) who they don't think will make it to the first team and is for sale. £10m plus add ons is not a big fee. Not everything needs a tin foil hat, that's what RAWK is for.
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It's definitely a big fee for someone with no first-team experience.

He worked for more than 10 years at City, that makes him lose any benefit of the doubt. Is it unfair? Maybe but that's the way it's when he had worked in a dodgy organization for that long.
 
yumtum said:
Does this kid even have first team experience though?

We sold Garner, who had about 100 professional games under his belt last year to a premier league team for less than £10m.

You can't be surprised that people are suspicious of the fees they get for their random youth players while we get pittance for ours.
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Idxomer said:
It's definitely a big fee for someone with no first-team experience.

He worked for more than 10 years at City, that makes him lose any benefit of the doubt. Is it unfair? Maybe but that's the way it's when he had worked in a dodgy organization for that long.
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I just doubt they've inflated a fee though, it's not like the owner or the club has any connection to Abu Dhabi (that said the issue with state backed clubs is it's much more possible to do the kind of thing you're suggesting i.e. 'help us out with FFP and we'll put you into a random real estate investment in Abu Dhabi').

I guess let's see, if he's bang average I will be more open to your theory but I suspect he's actually just a really good player they will sell on in a few years for profit + Wilcox ensured they got first dibs

As an edit - people keep mentioning Bazanu but not Lavia who was same fee and is now in demand and I've seen him linked to CL clubs with £40m+ fees mentioned.
 
tomaldinho1 said:
I think there's a need for stepping back a bit and thinking things through rationally with regards to this kind of post, City are cheats but why do you think this is dodgey?

Wilcox isn't some kind of City sleeper agent, he was a Director at their academy and so will know a) who the best young players are and b) who they don't think will make it to the first team and is for sale. £10m plus add ons is not a big fee. Not everything needs a tin foil hat, that's what RAWK is for.
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Fair post and can't imagine some clubs would ever consider doing shady stuff but we've witnessed it in other leagues to different extents. That said, Southampton are running in the red frequently. So, that 10m on a project player with obvious limitations is not a small fee to their budget. It equates to 6.7% of their revenue for fiscal year-end 2022, with 2023 data still to be filed.

https://assets.ctfassets.net/qtmbc4...tball_Group_Ltd_Financial_Statements_2022.pdf
 
tomaldinho1 said:
I just doubt they've inflated a fee though, it's not like the owner or the club has any connection to Abu Dhabi (that said the issue with state backed clubs is it's much more possible to do the kind of thing you're suggesting i.e. 'help us out with FFP and we'll put you into a random real estate investment in Abu Dhabi').

I guess let's see, if he's bang average I will be more open to your theory but I suspect he's actually just a really good player they will sell on in a few years for profit + Wilcox ensured they got first dibs

As an edit - people keep mentioning Bazanu but not Lavia who was same fee and is now in demand and I've seen him linked to CL clubs with £40m+ fees mentioned.
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OKX, a crypto company who’s just heavily sponsored City’s sleeves - has also just been granted a licence to operate in the UAE. It’s glaringly obvious they’ll be receiving huge disproportionate investment in their product there to cover - and eclipse - the cost of ‘their’ outlay.
 
Orion. said:
OKX, a crypto company who’s just heavily sponsored City’s sleeves - has also just been granted a licence to operate in the UAE. It’s glaringly obvious they’ll be receiving huge disproportionate investment in their product there to cover - and eclipse - the cost of ‘their’ outlay.
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That’s completely different to what we’re discussing? I agree re the shady crypto form who got banned from China but why are you bringing it up.
 
MrMarcello said:
Fair post and can't imagine some clubs would ever consider doing shady stuff but we've witnessed it in other leagues to different extents. That said, Southampton are running in the red frequently. So, that 10m on a project player with obvious limitations is not a small fee to their budget. It equates to 6.7% of their revenue for fiscal year-end 2022, with 2023 data still to be filed.

https://assets.ctfassets.net/qtmbc4...tball_Group_Ltd_Financial_Statements_2022.pdf
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Let’s see, if they sell Lavia for what he’s reportedly going to sell for they can buy 4 x 10m players and then try to develop and sell them again.

City have cheated to get where they are but I’d imagine their academy is actually just very good and will turn out very good players.
 
tomaldinho1 said:
Let’s see, if they sell Lavia for what he’s reportedly going to sell for they can buy 4 x 10m players and then try to develop and sell them again.

City have cheated to get where they are but I’d imagine their academy is actually just very good and will turn out very good players.
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While nobody else can sell 19 year olds with no first team experience for 5mill. Wonder what we’d get for Elanga in comparison
 
Think the selling bit is just jealousy on our behalf tbh. We're absolutely tosh at selling - it's one of the main reasons our hierarchy deserve so much criticism. We've probably left over 100m on the table over the last 5 seasons by selling for absolute peanuts. Think of the impact Smalling has had at Roma for example versus the fee.

I'm not sure if it's still true, but relatively recently there were more players in the prem from United's academy than any other team, yet we've barely made a penny compared to Chelsea and City. It's genuinely bizarre.
 
Beachryan said:
Think the selling bit is just jealousy on our behalf tbh. We're absolutely tosh at selling - it's one of the main reasons our hierarchy deserve so much criticism. We've probably left over 100m on the table over the last 5 seasons by selling for absolute peanuts. Think of the impact Smalling has had at Roma for example versus the fee.

I'm not sure if it's still true, but relatively recently there were more players in the prem from United's academy than any other team, yet we've barely made a penny compared to Chelsea and City. It's genuinely bizarre.
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it's surely pretty obvious to anyone that these clubs owned by liars, that lie about their attendance figures, that lie about their sponsorship deals, that skirt the age rules to get under 18 SA players ... also lie about the amount of money they get from selling players too? I've said as much in the Juventus, Barcelona, Chelsea threads: the numbers at these clubs don't add up unless they are basically just making everything up as they go along to meet financial fair play.

Or do you really believe that they are "well run"? The sheer amount of money that gets pumped into them should spark alarm bells otherwise. I've never forgotten seeing the police attendance figures for Manchester City football club Vs their reported attendance. The entire thing is a sham. We "barely make any money" because we report the REAL figures. Try not to be fooled by the bullshit.

"City are also accused of striking a legally-binding third party player ownership deal to cream off the best African talent from a Danish feeder club. In the agreement signed May 26, 2016, Tom Vernon, the British president of FC Nordsjaelland, is alleged to have committed his club to giving up West African talents from the club's lauded Right to Dream Academy in Ghana. "

Source- The Telegraph via Danish news
 
Orion. said:
OKX, a crypto company who’s just heavily sponsored City’s sleeves - has also just been granted a licence to operate in the UAE. It’s glaringly obvious they’ll be receiving huge disproportionate investment in their product there to cover - and eclipse - the cost of ‘their’ outlay.
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Would hope this is something the PL are looking into, although i wouldn't hold my breath. Much like the Silverlake deal. Abu Dhabi put $2 Bill into Silverlake & then Silverlake put $500 Mill of that money into CFG.
 
GazTheLegend said:
it's surely pretty obvious to anyone that these clubs owned by liars, that lie about their attendance figures, that lie about their sponsorship deals, that skirt the age rules to get under 18 SA players ... also lie about the amount of money they get from selling players too? I've said as much in the Juventus, Barcelona, Chelsea threads: the numbers at these clubs don't add up unless they are basically just making everything up as they go along to meet financial fair play.

Or do you really believe that they are "well run"? The sheer amount of money that gets pumped into them should spark alarm bells otherwise. I've never forgotten seeing the police attendance figures for Manchester City football club Vs their reported attendance. The entire thing is a sham. We "barely make any money" because we report the REAL figures. Try not to be fooled by the bullshit.
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If I‘m reading this thread right, there should be more than 115 charges by now.

It‘s logical to assume they cheat wherever they can get away with it.

They are not to be trusted.

imo there are 19 teams in the PL next season, City is a fake team.
 
tomaldinho1 said:
I think there's a need for stepping back a bit and thinking things through rationally with regards to this kind of post, City are cheats but why do you think this is dodgey?

Wilcox isn't some kind of City sleeper agent, he was a Director at their academy and so will know a) who the best young players are and b) who they don't think will make it to the first team and is for sale. £10m plus add ons is not a big fee. Not everything needs a tin foil hat, that's what RAWK is for.
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I don't think the poster meant it as a conspiracy theory. Rather, there are ex-City guys at those clubs now who obviously have good connections to City and their academy players. Probably a bias towards them too.

I don't think it's unfair to say that going for these inexperienced guys for the prices quoted isn't always the smartest thing to do. Why not just try a loan with an option to buy first? Lavia worked out I suppose, but Soton still got relegated.

Although, on a side note, Lavia signed for City when he was 16 from Anderlecht, so the latter did most of the work developing him. He was just passing through at City and made them a bit of profit.
 
How can any other club get punished for ffp while this stand off with City goes on…?

As bizarre as it sounds, it would probably benefit other Top 4 clubs to purposely breach ffp to a lesser degree than City and tempt punishment in order to ensure City get properly taken out.

But as it stands I don’t understand why any club should follow ffp to the letter, what’s the point?

And if City get a fine for 115 charges, moving forward, how can any team be punished more harshly than that without it being basically an admission of corruption / bribery at the highest levels?
 
Rhyme Animal said:
How can any other club get punished for ffp while this stand off with City goes on…?

As bizarre as it sounds, it would probably benefit other Top 4 clubs to purposely breach ffp to a lesser degree than City and tempt punishment in order to ensure City get properly taken out.

But as it stands I don’t understand why any club should follow ffp to the letter, what’s the point?

And if City get a fine for 115 charges, moving forward, how can any team be punished more harshly than that without it being basically an admission of corruption / bribery at the highest levels?
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There is no point. I hope that's the conclusion all teams take. Open the floodgates. Is the PL going to kick out 20 teams from the league if they all violate FFP?
 
It defies logic. Every player they buy, Grealish aside who had a buyout clause, is for a relative bargain price. Every player they sell goes for a good price. Their wage bill is less than ours despite having two top class players in every position.

You’d think they were making things up if they weren’t so ‘well run’
 
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