Why am I dying on a hill all of a sudden? I’m just saying I get why outlets don’t talk about something extensively when there isn’t much to go into yet.
City and Financial Doping | Charged by PL with 130 FFP breaches | Hearing begins 16th Sep 2024 | Concluded 9th Dec 2024 - Awaiting outcome
- Thread starter VanGaalEra
- Start date
Do you really believe anything substantial will happen? If there is no sporting penalty, there is no pain that will be felt by the club. No pain, no real consequences. No one is waiting until 2035, and everyone will have forgotten.
I can't imagine life without United. Been a fan for over 30 years and it would feel like a part of me is missing.
There are 5 outcomes:
1. They are found not guilty.
2. No points but a huge fine (approx. 400-500m).
3. Points deduction that's not large enough to relegate them (30-50).
4. Points deduction over 60 points which will probably relegate them. And they end up in the Championship.
5. Expulsion from the PL, which sends them down to L2 if the EFL accepts them.
For me I believe the only way they are going to feel any type of penalty is via option 4 or 5. They need to spend at least a season out of the PL. They will almost certainly lose players like KDB, Haaland and Rodri.
However, the concern with this method is that they have set up their academy to allow them to have a large number of very talented players coming through over the next 3-5 years which would be padding up their squad once they are back to the PL. They also have access to their multi-club network which has been accumulating talent over the past decade and these players would have a clear pathway to City and the PL should they get promoted after one season in the championship.
So, whilst they might not compete for the title for a few years, they will be able to quickly re-tool and find themselves in the top half very quickly.
1. They are found not guilty.
2. No points but a huge fine (approx. 400-500m).
3. Points deduction that's not large enough to relegate them (30-50).
4. Points deduction over 60 points which will probably relegate them. And they end up in the Championship.
5. Expulsion from the PL, which sends them down to L2 if the EFL accepts them.
For me I believe the only way they are going to feel any type of penalty is via option 4 or 5. They need to spend at least a season out of the PL. They will almost certainly lose players like KDB, Haaland and Rodri.
However, the concern with this method is that they have set up their academy to allow them to have a large number of very talented players coming through over the next 3-5 years which would be padding up their squad once they are back to the PL. They also have access to their multi-club network which has been accumulating talent over the past decade and these players would have a clear pathway to City and the PL should they get promoted after one season in the championship.
So, whilst they might not compete for the title for a few years, they will be able to quickly re-tool and find themselves in the top half very quickly.
Under new owners who'll follow the same rules as the other 19 teams i can live with that
I don't think their owners will be made to sell, unless they decide to expel them from the PL. If its just a 60 point deduction that ends up relegating them, then they won't go as far as stipulating that their owners must also sell for them to be promoted back into the PL.
Need expulsion and stripping of titles but accepted that's never gonna happen with these authorities
Honestly, its the most rational punishment. Dropping them down to league 2 is fine and all but after 16 years of dragging this out I dont know how things could go back to normal with the same people in charge.
I dont see a 60 point deduction for 115 charges being likely when everton are getting a 6 point deduction for one charge they cooperated with.
Yes, I think their EPL titles will be voided and they'll be expelled from the league for at least 5 seasons.
Just bored having the same circular debate with the same people.
You in particular.
No matter what the conclusion is no punishment will be harsh enough for you if guilty and no innocent/not proven verdict will be accepted, so what's the point?
Any Blue putting their head above the parapet just subjects themselves to a pile on by those who's minds are already made up.
Genuine question for you, if you are found guilty, what impacts (if any) will there be on you as fans do you think? Do you think there will be much dissent directed towards the owners?
Well, there's a reason to that...
The issue is if they are found guilty I can’t think of any punishment the EPL would actually do that wouldn’t have made the cheating worthwhile. They are now completely dominating the EPL and have been amongst the top dogs in Europe via that cheating if found guilty for a decade - they’ve made it and are established - the only fitting punishment is crippling them to ensure that no longer is the case which means huge financial penalties, transfer bans and massive points deductions across multiple seasons - is that really going to happen?
Unfortunately, I think those who are in the "I'll lose interest in the PL if City don't get punished" are in the minority, think it'll only be Everton, United and maybe Arsenal and Liverpool fans who will likely be most annoyed at this, every other team/fans seems to think City are good for the league, it doesn't help when the media still have their tongues fully in City's rectum.
This will be a slap on the wrist due to governmental relations (which annoys me more than the obvious City cheating) and it'll be swept under the carpet as it hasn't really been mentioned in the press anyway (annoys me just as much as the City cheating).
While this will cause a slight dip in viewers for the league, it's only going to hurt United, Everton, Arsenal and Liverpool anyway as it'll be them losing viewers, so City and the rest of the dodgy teams will have double wins.
Cnuts.
This will be a slap on the wrist due to governmental relations (which annoys me more than the obvious City cheating) and it'll be swept under the carpet as it hasn't really been mentioned in the press anyway (annoys me just as much as the City cheating).
While this will cause a slight dip in viewers for the league, it's only going to hurt United, Everton, Arsenal and Liverpool anyway as it'll be them losing viewers, so City and the rest of the dodgy teams will have double wins.
Cnuts.
For me the annoying thing is it seems to be actively avoided. Every victory and cup is celebrated like nothing is happening.
As a side, in other sports wouldn't teams/athletes be suspended during such an investigation to maintain sporting integrity?
Didn’t know that that date in November was so important… after statute of limitations for compensation claims.
Still think they’re getting done. Heavily.
Still think they’re getting done. Heavily.
People need to lower they expetaction because money talks.
And honest if they are not expelled to lowest tier of English football I will lose my interest in EPL. I love UTD but I am old to waste my time on rigged comps.
And honest if they are not expelled to lowest tier of English football I will lose my interest in EPL. I love UTD but I am old to waste my time on rigged comps.
You've just ignored my point here though. I said that years ago, before there was an enormous case being brought by the league, city fans just dismissed everyone as bitter and did some of the most hypocritical mental gymnastics to defend their brutal owners at all costs against any suggestion of cheating. Now at the very least its been proven that it's not a tin pot conspiracy, but a case that lawyers believe is punishable and that the league seems prepared to damage the leagues reputation by pursuing. The goalposts just shift and i suspect will shift if they're found guilty. City fans got giddy on day 1 of success and buried their heads in the sands.
You don't owe it to me to go over things that's fair. But I hope City get absolutely obliterated by this, though you're right, i suspect that the same cheating and politics that made it possible at all is what will get them out of it
Which rather proves my point.
You don't have an open mind so no point any Blue engaging with you.
See you on another thread
Yeah I'm in the camp of no longer engaging with top level football if they get the expected weak punishment, because what is the point. The game is already rotten enough, this'd be the last straw for me.
A shame, but I expect the PL will soldier on without the handful of us who draw the line..
A shame, but I expect the PL will soldier on without the handful of us who draw the line..
As I said earlier, no point in discussing with you as you've taken a position and have your reaction to any possible outcome to the case pre-planned.
If City are wholly guilty the punishment will be too lenient.
If City are partially guilty, they got away with some stuff. They are cheating bastards and the punishment is too lenient.
If City are cleared, they are cheating bastards and got off because of expensive lawyers and/or governmental interference.
Right?
I don't think Juventus have any trouble attracting top players and staff. They have mismanaged their resources in the last few years (since they got Ronaldo), but don't see how they've been tainted, to be honest.
As for City, they were already on the rise with Shinavatra's ownership. I am 1000% certain that even if they're sent to League 2 and take 3 years to get back to the Premier League, they will still have zero problems getting top talent in any position they want.
Professionals follow the money. As long as City can offer competitive compensation, they will be able to attract whoever they want.
Happy to answer this one.
On the whole the long standing "heritage" fans will mostly shrug their shoulders, tell themselves it's been a great ride and continue supporting their club through thick and thin as they have done before.
They'll ignore the politics and off field stuff because football is dirty.
Every club has skeletons in their cupboard and the one's shouting the loudest have the most to hide.
The newer breed will probably mostly lose interest and hook up with another team or player to idolise.
If found guilty and it's basically proven that they only got where they are by financially doping themselves up to the eyeballs, and they give City a massive points deduction for this season, here is a very shallow look at who will have been shafted of things and who will benefit:
11/12 - United
13/14 - Liverpool
17/18 - United (2nd time)
18/19 - Liverpool (2nd time)
20/21 - United (3rd time)
21/22 - Liverpool (3rd time)
22/23 - Arsenal
23/24 - Arsenal (2nd time)
24/25 - Likely Arsenal gifted a PL if points deduction happens for this season.
Why should solely Arsenal benefit? Yes they happen to be the second best at this current moment but Utd and Liverpool would be just as deserving. Just because the investigation/trial has been dragged this long Utd and Liverpool get nothing for their multiple year efforts against a doped up club?
You either do all or none imo. Otherwise there's no integrity.
11/12 - United
13/14 - Liverpool
17/18 - United (2nd time)
18/19 - Liverpool (2nd time)
20/21 - United (3rd time)
21/22 - Liverpool (3rd time)
22/23 - Arsenal
23/24 - Arsenal (2nd time)
24/25 - Likely Arsenal gifted a PL if points deduction happens for this season.
Why should solely Arsenal benefit? Yes they happen to be the second best at this current moment but Utd and Liverpool would be just as deserving. Just because the investigation/trial has been dragged this long Utd and Liverpool get nothing for their multiple year efforts against a doped up club?
You either do all or none imo. Otherwise there's no integrity.
The equivalent of getting off a great rollercoaster and realising you were in a simulator the whole time.
Where do you sit with this?
In terms of the "heritage" fans, how could they conclude it has been a great ride when it sits upon a bed of lies, corruption and cheating? You might say football is corrupt and dirty but no other club has this level of charges against it currently.
Are there no fans which would be furious with the owners? City had a storied history before UAE, they had previously won trophies and the league albeit many years ago, the club has existed over 100 years. Are there no fans that would be (or are) furious with how this has unraveled? I find it hard to believe that they will shrug their shoulders and move on.
There is no greater 'high horse' than 'I follow my team through thick and thin'. It is the ultimate, persuasive moral: a simple command which encourages only blind faith.
city fans will remain city fans even if they are relegated into the North West Premier League and ensure everyone the world over knows they took 10k away fans to Bradford Park Avenue. Even if they didn't.
When have you seen the UEFA backed 'red cartel' do that ?
city fans will remain city fans even if they are relegated into the North West Premier League and ensure everyone the world over knows they took 10k away fans to Bradford Park Avenue. Even if they didn't.
When have you seen the UEFA backed 'red cartel' do that ?
IMO they should be stripped of the titles but they shouldn’t be awarded to the second placed teams because it’s more complicated than that. The entire season is corrupted by City playing 38 matches and the butterfly effect those matches have.
I doubt this happened but in simple terms what if City beat the 3rd place team twice and lost twice to the 2nd place team and that 6 points decided 2nd position?
That’s the simplest example I can give but that knock on effect creates momentum, pressures and narratives.
In short the entire EPL has been tainted this last 15 years and therein lies the problem for the EPL. They’re going to want to mitigate the reality of the situation to preserve their product and there will be pressure from Sky and the like to do just that - they’ve paid billions for this product.
You’ve then got the juxtaposition the clubs are in, they want City to be punished and they will want their compensation but what none of the EPL CEOs will want going forward is to bite their nose of to spite their face and damage the integrity of the league going forward. Becoming another Serie A is not an option because so many of the clubs would go under considering their overheads now.
I'd be gutted if I were a city fan, completely ruined a (all rivalries aside) proper football club. I'd feel the same if I were a Geordie, Chelsea fan or if the Qataris had bought us out and attempted the same murky shite. It's just all so artificial.
I think with many of their fans we will see the stages of grief play out in real time, first stage right now: denial.
I can totally see how they’d view it as a fun ride. Most the older sane ones I know, albeit it is very few, have always known it was a bit dodgy and it was a house of cards that would likely come tumbling down eventually. But maybe they’re unlike the majority.
I wonder. I don't really know any old school city fans to be honest, just youngsters who picked them up as they were getting their first tastes of success.
I expect they'll discover an uncle who was a Newcastle fan or something soon enough.
I have an open mind. An open mind that has led me to read up on this, notably the leaked documents. Manchester City are clearly guilty. Do you disagree?Which rather proves my point.
You don't have an open mind so no point any Blue engaging with you.
See you on another thread
What about the relegated clubs? They will have lost fortunes
This is part of the butterfly that @Pexbo mentioned correctly. Losing out on the title, CL/EL spots, getting relegated... That is why you cannot simply award teh 2nd place team the title. City's titles should be vacated and they should be relegated.
The whole league has been shafted. I don't agree with handing out titles to who came 2nd because the whole landscape of the league would change if City didn't financially dope.
EDIT: Agree with @Pexbo
No, id wait to see the punishment before judging it
If they do get found guilty, that ticker banner had better make a return.
Agree with this, they should be stripped of titles but they shouldn't be re-awarded to the 2nd place team. Partly because of the reasons you've mentioned (but you could also argue that as they participated over 38 games, they shafted everyone as much), but more importantly for me because it doesn't change much - the fans and the squads didn't celebrate those titles, what impact does it really have several years on? It doesn't really change the difference in amount of titles between clubs (apart from Arsenal, but feck Arsenal, their manager was on the payroll of the cheats too), and I find it more impactful to have 8 out of the past 16 titles void, highlighting the PL's (complicit) inactivity over that period.