Chelsea reach agreement to sign Cesc Fábregas

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KM said:
The factor of Champions League is very overstated. City convinced Toure and Silva to join them without CL Football. All it takes are big wages.
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It does put us at a disadvantage though when another big-ish club wants our target and can offer both the big wages AND cl football. When you want the big names you will be dealing with competition from the oil merchants or madrid/barca more often than not...

I also imagine top footballers above age 26 or 27 would rather not waste another year (or a few if they believe the rebuilding job could take longer) not playing CL football, especially those who have never won it (Vidal aged 27 for example).
Yes Toure was around that age when he signed for City but the guy is obviously a shameless nutcase extraordinaire as recent events have proven. (Edit: on my phone. Not sure why this part is bolded)

Not playing in CL still is a big sisadvantage to have when dipping in the transfermarket for the more coveted stars.
 
Adebesi said:
Can you give me an example of a "club like ours" that has failed to get into the CL but then gone out and signed top tier players, beating off competition from other (richer) big clubs that are in the CL, in order to rebuild and get them back in? This is uncharted territory for me.
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Munich in 06-07 season fell out of the CL and then went on to sign the likes of Ribery, Klose and Toni in order to re-establish themselves there.
 
Adebesi said:
Can you give me an example of a "club like ours" that has failed to get into the CL but then gone out and signed top tier players, beating off competition from other (richer) big clubs that are in the CL, in order to rebuild and get them back in? This is uncharted territory for me.
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Bayern - Think they signed Ribery & Toni
 
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Kevin said:
It does put us at a disadvantage though when another big-ish club wants our target and can offer both the big wages AND cl football. When you want the big names you will be dealing with competition from the oil merchants or madrid/barca more often than not...

I also imagine top footballers above age 26 or 27 would rather not waste another year (or a few if they believe the rebuilding job could take longer) not playing CL football, especially those who have never won it (Vidal aged 27 for example).
Yes Toure was around that age when he signed for City but the guy is obviously a shameless nutcase extraordinaire as recent events have proven. (Edit: on my phone. Not sure why this part is bolded)

Not playing in CL still is a big sisadvantage to have when dipping in the transfermarket for the more coveted stars.
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Maybe the first part you typed using ordinary liquid and the second using Fairy liquid?
 
I dont get the negativity on here - we will be back as contenders for 1st next year as our squad is too good not to challenge. Players know that utd has the financial strenght to rise again as one bad year doesnt destroy everything. we will buy a cb, a lb and at least one midfielder and will be ok.
 
Adebesi said:
That was the example I thought of, just because my knowledge of European football is so limited. But Suarez is a special case, after his antics in Holland I dont think many people wanted him.

Obviously, if we can find a racist scumbag who bites people but is a brilliant midfielder, we're sorted.
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I'm not sure about this one, but Falcao could have been signed by Atletico from Porto when they finished around 5th the previous season.
 
Adebesi said:
OK that is quite encouraging.
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Even before there's example of Barcelona who finished 6th in La Liga and still managed to sign Ronaldinho, Quaresma(Big talent at that time) and Edgar Davids on loan.
 
city signed silva and yaya toure without champions league football.
 
A lot of people bringing Barca up. Perfectly legitimate example and to be fair I am ready to concede these examples do demonstrate that the CL problem doesnt have to be insurmountable.

BUT

There is a part of me that questions whether Barca really qualify as a "club like ours". Theyre Barca. Barcelona. Manchester. Its those soft factors of climate and culture that we can do nothing about that just give them an edge.

I think the Munich example gives me a little more hope but, as I say, both are legitimate examples. Hopefully we'll be a third example by the end of the summer.
 
You could argue that Mata was fully aware that we wouldn't be making a top four finish when he signed. I'd say he's on a very good wage too, seeing as he came from fecking Chelsea.

We'll be fine.
 
Shark said:
You could argue that Mata was fully aware that we wouldn't be making a top four finish when he signed. I'd say he's on a very good wage too, seeing as he came from fecking Chelsea.

We'll be fine.
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I cant believe Mata had written off the CL. Im sure he knew it was a risk, but he must have expected once he arrived we would put together a winning run.
 
Varun said:
In recent years, think only Barca and Bayern are clubs of our stature that didnt make the CL in the 1st place. As thegregster said, Barca got ronaldinho. Didnt Bayern get Neuer when they didnt have CL football next year or am I mixing years up?
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I think you have it mixed up. :)

They finished 3rd after Louis was dismissed and Jonker took charge as assistant. They did sign Neuer that season and reached the finals next season at Allianz where they lost to Chelsea.

Apart from Barcelona in 2003, I can only think of Bayern 2007/2008 where they signed Luca Toni, Frank Ribery, Miroslav Klose, Ze Roberto despite finishing 4th in 2006/2007 and playing in Europa League.

But we have to consider those were much simpler times without the like of City, PSG spending mental money. Additionally Real didn't have Perez at the helm and Barcelona weren't very financially stable. Although Milan, Juventus and Inter were a bit more thrifty with their money but still the level of competition now is unprecedented.
 
Adebesi said:
I cant believe Mata had written off the CL. Im sure he knew it was a risk, but he must have expected once he arrived we would put together a winning run.
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He's an intelligent man, there was no way we were going on any runs under Moyes last season. Aside from back to back wins vs clubs like Norwich and Cardiff here and there.
 
Shark said:
He's an intelligent man, there was no way we were going on any runs under Moyes last season. Aside from back to back wins vs clubs like Norwich and Cardiff here and there.
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You think he signed for us despite having no faith in Moyes whatsoever, and no expectation of getting into the CL?

Fair enough. I disagree though.
 
Invictus said:
I think you have it mixed up. :)

They finished 3rd after Louis was dismissed and Jonker took charge as assistant. They did sign Neuer that season and reached the finals next season at Allianz where they lost to Chelsea.

Apart from Barcelona in 2003, I can only think of Bayern 2007/2008 where they signed Luca Toni, Frank Ribery, Miroslav Klose, Ze Roberto despite finishing 4th in 2006/2007 and playing in Europa League.

But we have to consider those were much simpler times without the like of City, PSG spending mental money. Additionally Real didn't have Perez at the helm and Barcelona weren't very financially stable. Although Milan, Juventus and Inter were a bit more thrifty with their money but still the level of competition now is unprecedented.
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Ah I see. Thanks for clearing that up.
 
Adebesi said:
You think he signed for us despite having no faith in Moyes whatsoever, and no expectation of getting into the CL?

Fair enough. I disagree though.
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Well no, I don't fully believe that, but as I said an argument could be made. The other thing is the fact that Mata spoke about how we were going to be signing top class players in the summer, during his first interviews. There's a high possibility that Moyes told him some of our transfer plans.
 
Shark said:
You could argue that Mata was fully aware that we wouldn't be making a top four finish when he signed. I'd say he's on a very good wage too, seeing as he came from fecking Chelsea.

We'll be fine.
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Mata was on around 70 k at Chelsea, he is now at around 130 k with us. When he signed we were 6-7 points behind a top 4 spot, so he thought we woudl make it. Then there was the world cup factor, he is no Iniesta or Xavi who could get into the Spain squad without playing well for a while or without playing regularly. I the end his regular game time with us plus his some decent performances from March till Mai helped him make the 23 men squad ahead the likes of Navas and Isco.

Also he was hardly playing in the end at Chelsea and he couldn't afford to lose important years of his career at Chelsea, he had no choice, really. You can fight for your place, but if you are just not the type of player the manager wants, you are not going to change it no matter how hard you work. He wasn't going to get "quick/pacey" or turn into a defensive midfielder.

Anyway, all in all it depends, if you are young enough, you wouldn't care much compared to if you are older and want to use every year to win the CL. In Mata's case he has already won the CL and he is still young, so I think he can easily live without CL for a year.
 
Shark said:
Well no, I don't fully believe that, but as I said an argument could be made. The other thing is the fact that Mata spoke about how we were going to be signing top class players in the summer, during his first interviews. There's a high possibility that Moyes told him some of our transfer plans.
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True.

For me, he must have expected us to do well in the second half of the season if he was trying to play himself into the Spain squad. Playing for a team that is struggling to put a run of results together and ultimately falling short of the CL for the first time in years hardly seems like the best platform from which to do that.

Although in the end we did even worse than many of us feared and yet he made the squad anyway, so what do I know?
 
I've always been under the impression that Cesc disliked United, stemming from the intense rivalry we used to have with Arsenal. I've also always thought he was a bit of a prick. It's all conjecture of course, but it wouldn't surprise me in the slightest if he'd rather go to Chelsea than us.
 
Tarrou said:
I've always been under the impression that Cesc disliked United, stemming from the intense rivalry we used to have with Arsenal. I've also always thought he was a bit of a prick. It's all conjecture of course, but it wouldn't surprise me in the slightest if he'd rather go to Chelsea than us.
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I'd say he would choose Chelsea over us due to their Manager, team, CL, back living in London and the wages.
I doubt he hates us any more than he would've hated Chelsea, Tottenham imo.
He does look a bit of prick but I get that impression with most Spanish players except Mata who is so nice and cuddly!
I think if SAF was still here and we hadn't just had the most f*cked up season. He'd be more than happy to join us and his old pal RvP - if we actually wanted him that is!?
 
kouroux said:
Ribery wasn't that special back then, he wasn't nearly the player he's become for them.
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True - however he was a highly coveted talent, sort of like Hazard before he went to Chelsea. I believe they also signed Klose that season too.
 
Shark said:
Suarez to Liverpool could be an alright example, seeing as he wasn't exactly unknown at the time and what he's gone on to do there. I'm not sure who else was in for him though.
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at the time, clubs seem interested in him but think there were question marks over his attitude/antics
 
Cassidy said:
True - however he was a highly coveted talent, sort of like Hazard before he went to Chelsea. I believe they also signed Klose that season too.
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Absolutely not, Hazard was twice the best player in France and attracted a lot more attention than Ribery did at the time. Ribery had talent but Hazard was something else.
 
Adebesi said:
A lot of people bringing Barca up. Perfectly legitimate example and to be fair I am ready to concede these examples do demonstrate that the CL problem doesnt have to be insurmountable.

BUT

There is a part of me that questions whether Barca really qualify as a "club like ours". Theyre Barca. Barcelona. Manchester. Its those soft factors of climate and culture that we can do nothing about that just give them an edge.

I think the Munich example gives me a little more hope but, as I say, both are legitimate examples. Hopefully we'll be a third example by the end of the summer.
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But the issue is taht they're examples. They dont prove anything other than what they are. It's like stats. A useful tool but by itself is simply standalone. We bring the interpretations to the table. The issue I have is saying "based on these examples, this is why we shouldn't be too worried about not getting players even though we arent in CL". Because the parallels are usually not there. Usually the context is not the same. Yet by using examples we seem to treat it as such. circumstantial ad hominem
 
Shark said:
You could argue that Mata was fully aware that we wouldn't be making a top four finish when he signed. I'd say he's on a very good wage too, seeing as he came from fecking Chelsea.

We'll be fine.
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Feel free to disagree but I would question if Mata would be as enthusiastic to join if it wasn't a world cup year. Just saying.
 
Gladiator said:
But the issue is taht they're examples. They dont prove anything other than what they are. It's like stats. A useful tool but by itself is simply standalone. We bring the interpretations to the table. The issue I have is saying "based on these examples, this is why we shouldn't be too worried about not getting players even though we arent in CL". Because the parallels are usually not there. Usually the context is not the same. Yet by using examples we seem to treat it as such. circumstantial ad hominem
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I agree. I'm firmly in the Not Being In The CL Harms Us camp. But I asked the question and to be fair these examples do give some comfort, even if they don't assuage my concerns entirely.
 
Gladiator said:
Feel free to disagree but I would question if Mata would be as enthusiastic to join if it wasn't a world cup year. Just saying.
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I'm with you on that one. I think it was about him getting game time and getting in the Spanish squad. He also said (reportedly) that he did not want to leave England so a chance to join United and with Jose blessing was win/win. I think since actually joining us he has realized what a great and massive club he is at.
 
Adebesi said:
I agree. I'm firmly in the Not Being In The CL Harms Us camp. But I asked the question and to be fair these examples do give some comfort, even if they don't assuage my concerns entirely.
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That's fair. For me, I'm resigned to the fact we probably wont get any high end players. When I look at those other examples I wonder who were the major players in helping bringing those players in? Why were those players keen to join? Wage structure? etc. Because to me, those type of details are important to understanding how comparable examples are between each other. Otherwise we're just naming examples and we can do that all day if we really wanted to
 
NJM78 said:
I'm with you on that one. I think it was about him getting game time and getting in the Spanish squad. He also said (reportedly) that he did not want to leave England so a chance to join United and with Jose blessing was win/win. I think since actually joining us he has realized what a great and massive club he is at.
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I like Mata alot. What he does off the pitch is just top class. He really wants to appreciate his environment and maybe other players do that privately but I'm impressed by his interactions with fans and the fact he wanted to take a tour of the MU museum.

Like you said, the move was a win/win for both parties.
 
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