So Cesc, Chelsea, Feck!
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Context is everything.He is going to Chelsea, what is there to talk about. Surprisingly for €33m, which was considered a derogatory/demeaning bid when we made it last summer.
Last season Barcelona had just sold Thiago and would have to have signed someone else if they decided to let Fabregas go. For them to even consider it, it would have taken a big bid to give them something to think about as well as the fact that Fabregas was happy and didn't want to leave (unless Barcelona wanted to sell).
The situation this summer is massively different. Barcelona don't seem to want him and he appears to have accepted that. They're actively looking to sell and that weakens their position. They also seem to have set the fee their aiming for. In that sense Chelsea seem to be lucky they aren't fighting for his signature. For whatever reason us, Arsenal and City appear to have ruled ourselves out of this one or the price could be much different.
Money can turn hate into love very easily in football.
Iirc, we were linked with him before Thiago was sold off to Bayern. Maybe Thiago would have stayed if they excepted our bid.
If Fabregas was completely happy then his camp would have never sounded us out and encouraged us to make a bid. Those bids surely weren't darts thrown in the dark.
The bid was made after Thiago left, they would have been less inclined to accept the bid as they already sold one CM.
Then the amount of bid wouldn't have mattered anyway, right?
*puts on pessimist's hat*
I'm concerned for our reputation if Fabregas joins Chelsea, unless someone from the club comes out and states that we're not interested in signing him.
If he joins Chelsea the whole scenario will look like "even though he used to play for the city's biggest rivals, and will move to a team that plays very defensive football and will expect him to limit his play style to just that on a frequent basis for manager who he has had confrontations with in the past, he'd rather join Chelsea than the team that were openly courting him last year and showed a great passion to get him. One could argue that the other team have been a little too desperate."
Then whoever we bring in will be seen by the press as second choice, even if that isn't the case.
I'm concerned for our reputation if Fabregas joins Chelsea, unless someone from the club comes out and states that we're not interested in signing him.
If he joins Chelsea the whole scenario will look like "even though he used to play for the city's biggest rivals, and will move to a team that plays very defensive football and will expect him to limit his play style to just that on a frequent basis for manager who he has had confrontations with in the past, he'd rather join Chelsea than the team that were openly courting him last year and showed a great passion to get him. One could argue that the other team have been a little too desperate."
Then whoever we bring in will be seen by the press as second choice, even if that isn't the case.
This I just don´t get.. Cesc available for around 30m and we aren´t in the frame.. Is there something that we don´t know or does United not sign midfielders..
Think Andy and the rest of the media people have said that we are't interested in him and were still pissed off about last season.
I imagine us not being in the Champions League could be a big issue for lots of top players.
The spin is "we are not interested in midfielder's of the ilk of Kroos and Fab". Very Strange.
Our reputation is at a low ebb at the moment, its because we're not in the CL. Simples. When we get back in, the appeal of Manchester United rises again.
Though I still think this is about Van Gaal not wanting the player. And that is fair enough. Contrary to what @cesc's_mullet was saying before, I dont think we should sign great players just because they are available if they are not what we need. Especially for a manager like Van Gaal who has a very specific system. He used the example of Van Persie, Im not sure how good that example is but that is just because Im one of the people who still thinks that signing may have done more harm than good, though that is a very hard case to argue. If the money had been spent on a midfielder I think we might be in a completely different situation right now. Likewise, if Arsenal hadnt signed Ozil and had got what they actually needed - a striker - instead, maybe things would have been better for them as well.
You have to look at the big picture. If Van Gaal thinks Fabregas doesnt fit our particular puzzle, and Wenger thinks the same, I would trust their judgement on it. As disappointing as it is to not be signing a midfielder. I have to admit Id rather get someone with a bit more about him defensively myself, though best of all would be to sign two midfielders and let a couple of our mediocre specimens leave.
Though I still think this is about Van Gaal not wanting the player. And that is fair enough. Contrary to what @cesc's_mullet was saying before, I dont think we should sign great players just because they are available if they are not what we need. Especially for a manager like Van Gaal who has a very specific system. He used the example of Van Persie, Im not sure how good that example is but that is just because Im one of the people who still thinks that signing may have done more harm than good, though that is a very hard case to argue. If the money had been spent on a midfielder I think we might be in a completely different situation right now. Likewise, if Arsenal hadnt signed Ozil and had got what they actually needed - a striker - instead, maybe things would have been better for them as well.
You have to look at the big picture. If Van Gaal thinks Fabregas doesnt fit our particular puzzle, and Wenger thinks the same, I would trust their judgement on it. As disappointing as it is to not be signing a midfielder. I have to admit Id rather get someone with a bit more about him defensively myself, though best of all would be to sign two midfielders and let a couple of our mediocre specimens leave.
Well.. Fever games one season after a WC could be a bonus..
Agree I just dont get this. Woody needs get his act together..
That's okay then. I'm still keeping my pessimist's hat on for the time being though. At least until we sign someone this summer.
My pessimist's hat is called hair. I cat forcibly cut it off if I want to but it always grows back pretty quickly.
We were interested last year for exactly the same money. So either 1 of 3 things have happened since then.
1) He doesn't want to move to Manchester, and would rather go back to London.
2) We are still butthurt from him denying us last year, and now won't entertain the deal.
3) Van Gaal doesn't fancy him, and would rather have a different player.
I guess we will just have to sit this 1 out, but it would be nice to know why we aren't throwing our hat in the ring.
1) He doesn't want to move to Manchester, and would rather go back to London.
2) We are still butthurt from him denying us last year, and now won't entertain the deal.
3) Van Gaal doesn't fancy him, and would rather have a different player.
I guess we will just have to sit this 1 out, but it would be nice to know why we aren't throwing our hat in the ring.
Champions league football is important, but it means almost nothing if you can offer big wages, as I'm sure we can. Especially with some high profile players like Rio and Vidic leaving.
He is not what we need anyway . It's steel our midfield needs. We have enough creativity going forward with RVP, Rooney, Mata, Januzaj.
A steely midfielder or two, a winger, a left back, a right back, and a centre back and we are laughing.
A steely midfielder or two, a winger, a left back, a right back, and a centre back and we are laughing.
There's a big if about that though, given that Mitten is openly claiming (and I believe him) United spun Van Gaal didn't want Kroos to save face after Kroos turned us down. If what Andy says is true and United were in for Kroos why not Fabregas? They are similar in stature and build, if a little bit different in game, Fabregas is more direct, less metronomic but Van Gaal has never shown an allergy to that type of midfielder in the past. The young Seedorf was more that type than anything else.
I just think the club are spinning like tops to cover up the point you made: We're not in the European Cup and so cannot attract the highest calibre of player. Ever since the Moyes error started to become clear and we started sinking like a stone, the club has been saying finishing outside the Champions League won't impact who we're able to get but that's obviously not true. Instead of pretend like its not the club will have to do some real scouting, find some superb young gems and turn them into stars.
Matic, Fabregas, Oscar will be a really strong centre midfield for Mourinho next year. If the Costa deal goes through they'll have the spine of a really powerful outfit. They lost some really silly games in the run in and should've won the title. Signings of this calibre will put them much closer next season.
The factor of Champions League is very overstated. City convinced Toure and Silva to join them without CL Football. All it takes are big wages.
Cant deny that possibility and obviously the Kroos thing does cast a different light on it. I havent seen enough of Kroos to say. Wouldnt he provide a bit more protection than Fabregas would?
If they are trying to save face I can understand why. It is a bit of a humiliation and Id rather pretend we didnt want him than be jilted. Its like being at school again and refusing to admit I like the girl who wants nothing to do with me.
Slightly different, for me. City were on the way up, them getting into the CL was inevitable. We might be perceived by some as being on the way down.
That is a bit of a stretch, Im sure people are reasonably confident we'll get back into the CL.
The difference is we arent going to blow City and Chelsea out of the water on wages like they could do to us. It just isnt a level playing field.
Not sure about the first point. The last year would be seen as an exception rather than a rule. We still hold a lot of prestige and have already shown we are willing to give people huge wages(Rooney or Adnan's new contract which said to be excellent for a youngster).
I conceded the first point was a stretch. Although I dont think it is as out there as all that, some people might perceive it this way. Football and cycles, the top 4 is very competitive now, people might think itll be a few years before we win anything again with how strong City and Chelsea are. A lot of our own fans think that so why wouldnt Fabregas?
But yes, I think it is more about the second point.
Yep. For a club like ours, 1 year without CL isnt really a deal breaker.
Chelsea sell Mata for 30 odd million to make FFP. Then they buy Mata for 30 odd million.
Exactly.
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/sport/football/article-451591/Ronaldo-uneducated-sneers-Mourinho.html
They had no problem working together.
Can you give me an example of a "club like ours" that has failed to get into the CL but then gone out and signed top tier players, beating off competition from other (richer) big clubs that are in the CL, in order to rebuild and get them back in? This is uncharted territory for me.
This depends on the player. CL football is only one factor in a negotiation/transfer...there are many others.
Ronaldinho to Barca.
Were Barca out of the CL when they signed him? Excellent example if so. Any others?
One factor. Id say wages and CL are the biggest factors. That and expectation of silverware generally, a team that is perceived as likely to win the league would be a big draw.
Sorry, but history is way down the list for most footballers (I imagine).
Yes. They finished 6th the previous season.
I agree with you. I certainly feel it's a deal breaker or at least makes it harder for the transfer to go through. Offering big wages can increase the likelihood of it happening but if we're going to use CL as a reason why players want to join us, I think it's fair that we are willing to accept not being in the CL or any european competition for that matter decreases the likelihood of a player wanting to join our club. We're certainly a famous club but that wasn enough to convince Hazard to come to United. Chelsea paid the agent fees and the rest was history. This is why the "prestige" point for me sometimes works. If a player really wants to join us and we are keen as well, then there's a very good chance of it happening.
ah yes my reply above illustrates this. But while CL is a big factor, I'm just trying to highlight the fact that moves break down because transfers are quite complicated. It can get messy the more vested parties are involved.
You make it seem as if Woody is some sort of hipster, bidding amounts before it was popular
Someone photoshop Woody into some skinny jeans and hipster garb!He is alleged to have been one of the pizza-gate players.
Still, i think you are right to be pessimistic until a player is in a car heading to old trafford.
Suarez to Liverpool could be an alright example, seeing as he wasn't exactly unknown at the time and what he's gone on to do there. I'm not sure who else was in for him though.
In recent years, think only Barca and Bayern are clubs of our stature that didnt make the CL in the 1st place. As thegregster said, Barca got ronaldinho. Didnt Bayern get Neuer when they didnt have CL football next year or am I mixing years up?
That was the example I thought of, just because my knowledge of European football is so limited. But Suarez is a special case, after his antics in Holland I dont think many people wanted him.
Obviously, if we can find a racist scumbag who bites people but is a brilliant midfielder, we're sorted.
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