Catalonia referendum| Catalonia declares independence from Spain

Ishdalar said:
Of course I am, because the party that wanted to vote went through that with a bullshit way to achieve it (like I told you before you went to sleep, and never got an answer) while rightfully knowing they were dividing people and creating a rupture in society, not because it was inherent to their way of doing things, because politics and other figures (and not from the PP/right wing, even leftists and other independentists) WARNED them

If you think Catalunya have been the most repressed region in Spain then you're already lost and bought every lie from a bunch of corrupt politics, read about how people lived in the Basque Country in the 80s/90s, or about the 30s in Asturias.

Everytime I hear about the repression and Spain "stealing" from Catalunya I instantly roll my eyes, here in the Northwest we didn't have a proper highway until 1996, they robbed us of our future by destroying every industry and limiting the quota of the food industry (milk, fish and meat for example) while Catalunya thrived in every way with the starving immigrants that had to leave the forgotten regions of Extremadura, Andalucia or Galicia (deprived of merely having the chance to compete against other Spanish/European regions from a central government that had all his chips put on the Mediterranean and the Basque country).
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The ones that broke the status quo was Rajoy asking signatures to bring the statute to the Constitutional Tribunal when it was aproved by referendum by catalans, by the catalan parliament and the spanish parliament. Then they never wanted to dialogue. And yes, they WARNED us, because they want to infuse fear, Fck them, we are sick of fear.

Catalonia had not been particulary repressed since the dead of Franco, till now though, never seen. But catalans, through history (as I was saying) had been the most repressed region without a doubt.

I roll my eyes with that sentence too and if galicia is what it is, and andalucia and extremadura they are what they are is because they are tricked by the government with subsidizes and not investment, and that is not catalonia's fault. We do with our money what we can an well.
 
Coxy said:
In other more possibly democratic countries this referendum wouldn’t be illegal in the first place. Look at the UK and Scotland - that’s how to do a referendum.

And anyway the far better approach would have been to just let the referendum happen and declare it illegal after. Not all this violence which is just going to intensify the bitterness
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No, don't look, because that's not at all relatable to this.

Try closer, like East of England asking for a referendum to declare their independency from England
 
carvajal said:
Catalanism invented the history of 1714,to create a war against you
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What invented history? a civil war for the chosing of a ruler divided Catalonia and Castilia, inside a big superpowers war, England Austria Catalonia vs Spain and France. Austria and England abandoned Catalonia. They crushed us and through the "decretos de Nueva planta" They explicitly forbid catalan and surpress our laws and parliament.

Whhich invention is that? tell me?
 
Ban said:
I love the line about 'standing to the police' or something. I guess Vato and carvajal would in the same situation, where they would just stand in front of the police with raised arms and policeman would beat him with baton, say to themselves: It's all right, it's my fault, I stood in front of the police."
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:lol:
 
Ishdalar said:
No, don't look, because that's not at all relatable to this.

Try closer, like East of England asking for a referendum to declare their independency from England
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East England people are English, Catalans aren't Spanish. East England asking for a referendum for independence would be like Valladolid asking for independence, nowhere comparable to the case of Catalonia.
 
Raoul said:
Message from newbie member @4bars who doesn't yet have access to the CE but wanted to contribute the following......

What I think it will happen is that spanish government will size ballot boxes and ballots on the 1st, and if necessary will use force.

The catalan government said that it will declare the independence if it happens. It that happens, it will be more force. Catalonia will not be independence, that is a fact, but the indpeendentism will grow. where it will drive us? nobody knows.
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@4bars got his prediction 100% correct. Lets see if he gets the next bit correct too.
 
Btw, to people from Spain here, how are the feelings in non Catalonian parts of what was Kingdom of Aragon? On what side are Valencia, Zaragoza and co?
 
Revan said:
East England people are English, Catalans aren't Spanish. East England asking for a referendum for independence would be like Valladolid asking for independence, nowhere comparable to the case of Catalonia.
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There are quite a few Cornish people who call themselves not English.
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Revan said:
Btw, to people from Spain here, how are the feelings in non Catalonian parts of what was Kingdom of Aragon? On what side are Valencia, Zaragoza and co?
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Both very spanish.Zaragoza more.
 
carvajal said:
Both very spanish.Zaragoza more.
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Despite that Valencia speak Catalan, they identify themselves more with Spain? From my very limited experience with Valencians (mostly Erasmus case) they were somewhere in the middle.
 
sammsky1 said:
@4bars got his prediction 100% correct. Lets see if he gets the next bit correct too.
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We will not declare independence, the referendum had been compromise. But in the next 2 and 3 days will be detentions to infuse fear. in 2 days catalonia will go in full strike. Will be more police brutality I reckon in the next days.

After this, it will be 2 escenarios, application of the 155 article that surpresses catalan autonomy (done the facto by the backdoor). If not, I think catalan government will go for anticipated elections with a referendum character like the last time but this time it will not be a process, it will be declared the same day. And Spain would go full force even with the army.
 
There has to be a better way. Ireland lives next door to a relentless colonial power - but the Good Friday agreement shows that accommodation is possible. It also shows that accommodation means both sides surrendering cherished aspirations. I don’t know how many Catalans want to remain Spanish; a fair vote, that encourages them to participate, could clarify this. I don’t know how many Castillians deplore the police brutality of the last hours. If you do, speak up. I do know that sport, especially football has the power to bring People together (as well as divide them). It was heartwarming to see the Catalans contribution to the great Spanish team.

Blessings on all these communities Catalan and Spanish; and on decision makers. May the leaders of all sides make wise and generous and merciful choices.
 
Revan said:
Despite that Valencia speak Catalan, they identify themselves more with Spain? From my very limited experience with Valencians (mostly Erasmus case) they were somewhere in the middle.
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North valencia (closer to catalunya) they lean a bit to feeling valencians or as we notmytaste called Catalan countries, the rest and majortity they feel spanish
 
Revan said:
Despite that Valencia speak Catalan, they identify themselves more with Spain? From my very limited experience with Valencians (mostly Erasmus case) they were somewhere in the middle.
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It depends. In the countryside they keep more the traditions and language.I think that it's not so strong in Valencia/Alicante.
They keep their identity but more softly
 
The majority of people i knew in Zaragoza and Valência were pro Spain
 
Classical Mechanic said:
Based on them being ethnically Celtic and having their own language. They are certainly not as bothered about independence as the Catalans though.
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Without a doubt not.

Still, I'm not a fan of simple yes/no referendums. Imagine being in the 48% and having your citizenship and country ripped away from you.

Compromise needs to exist.

But the way the Spaniards have handled this is atrocious.
 
Vato said:
Not justifying the excessive force in some of the places. Not at all, that's disgraceful. But they are doing what is asked of them though, let's not forget that.

Like I said, I couldn't care less if they got their independence or not, I'm actually more in favour as I don't like people who are anti-Spain or against any specific region. I don't want to be the same nationality as people who don't feel proud to be spanish.
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I love Catalunya and I love Spain. So sad to see this. Well done for saying brutality is wrong.
 
Ban said:
Where do you live? Galicia?
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carvajal said:
:lol:better don't say your city @Ishdalar
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They way I just talked like my city was turned into a zombie apocalypse without future or hope, should be enough to locate me for someone that knows more than 6 Galician cities :lol:

4bars said:
The ones that broke the status quo was Rajoy asking signatures to bring the statute to the Constitutional Tribunal when it was aproved by referendum by catalans, by the catalan parliament and the spanish parliament. Then they never wanted to dialogue. And yes, they WARNED us, because they want to infuse fear, Fck them, we are sick of fear.

Catalonia had not been particulary repressed since the dead of Franco, till now though, never seen. But catalans, through history (as I was saying) had been the most repressed region without a doubt.

I roll my eyes with that sentence too and if galicia is what it is, and andalucia and extremadura they are what they are is because they are tricked by the government with subsidizes and not investment, and that is not catalonia's fault. We do with our money what we can an well.
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First paragraph, nothing to add there, but Rajoy (or the PP in this case) are a problem of their own, no region should declare independency because they fell out with a Party/Ruler that might be 4/8 years at power, that's like divorcing from your wife because you asked her if she could prepare pasta for dinner and she put you a salad in the desk

The last part, in the great scheme about Spain's economy it was a tactical decision to focus the infrastructure and industry closer to the biggest markets in Europe and the Mediterranean (less to roads to build to reach there, faster transport, and all of that) and not having local regions competing against eachother, a plan were Basque Country and Catalunya have the industry power and every other region apports other things for the global network of the whole country. Of course if you want to make those Northeast industries as potent as you could, you might find easier to destroy the ships and docks in the northwest as a bargain coin to join the CE.

Which leads to another part of this debate, who fuels the nationalistic thoughts of people? Well, anyone could make a solid case about the old CiU people or the "Catalan bourgeois" pushing harder for independence when your industry is already settled and it's time to "arrimar el hombro" like we say in Spain (help the regions that took the hit to develop the powerful one). But of course, is easier to call off the engagement than doing your part, isn't it?.
 
Piqué: "We know Rajoy's level. He goes around the world and doesn't even speak english".

:lol: Galician farmer :lol:
 
Am I allowed to cheer Isco's goal vs Espanyol just now? I don't want to come over as a sadist to some..
Tincanalley said:
There has to be a better way. Ireland lives next door to a relentless colonial power - but the Good Friday agreement shows that accommodation is possible. It also shows that accommodation means both sides surrendering cherished aspirations. I don’t know how many Catalans want to remain Spanish; a fair vote, that encourages them to participate, could clarify this. I don’t know how many Castillians deplore the police brutality of the last hours. If you do, speak up. I do know that sport, especially football has the power to bring People together (as well as divide them). It was heartwarming to see the Catalans contribution to the great Spanish team.

Blessings on all these communities Catalan and Spanish; and on decision makers. May the leaders of all sides make wise and generous and merciful choices.
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I like you.

About the football part, I said before that I don't give a damn if they split off or not, but losing the classicos would be a damn shame.
 
4bars said:
We will not declare independence, the referendum had been compromise. But in the next 2 and 3 days will be detentions to infuse fear. in 2 days catalonia will go in full strike. Will be more police brutality I reckon in the next days.

After this, it will be 2 escenarios, application of the 155 article that surpresses catalan autonomy (done the facto by the backdoor). If not, I think catalan government will go for anticipated elections with a referendum character like the last time but this time it will not be a process, it will be declared the same day. And Spain would go full force even with the army.
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If there is a full strike, will Barcelona players refuse to play for Spain in world cup qualifiers?
 
rcoobc said:
Without a doubt not.

Still, I'm not a fan of simple yes/no referendums. Imagine being in the 48% and having your citizenship and country ripped away from you.

Compromise needs to exist.

But the way the Spaniards have handled this is atrocious.
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I think that the referendum for independence should be decided with 2/3 of the voters voting for independence (or at least 60%) with at least 2/3 of people voting in the referendum. A narrow win for separation shouldn't mean separation IMO.

The problem here is that Spain didn't even negotiate for a referendum under any circumstances.
 
Revan said:
East England people are English, Catalans aren't Spanish. East England asking for a referendum for independence would be like Valladolid asking for independence, nowhere comparable to the case of Catalonia.
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Catalans and Spanish have been together for centuries, and helped each other a lot of times despite what the actual narrative says.

They go along for a bigger lapse of time than the whole history of the United States, isn't that enough to consider them Spanish? Becose in the US they're damn proud of being Americanfor barely a couple hundred years
 
Lots of tapas are being thrown out of the cochecita.
 
Ishdalar said:
Catalans and Spanish have been together for centuries, and helped each other a lot of times despite what the actual narrative says.

They go along for a bigger lapse of time than the whole history of the United States, isn't that enough to consider them Spanish? Becose in the US they're damn proud of being Americanfor barely a couple hundred years
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Americans feel Americans, Catalans feel Catalans (not Spanish). They also like to speak in their very different language, instead of speaking in Spanish. They have also historically been oppressed from Spanish.

They don't feel proud of being Spanish, same as Scottish people don't feel proud of being English. Despite that they live in the same country (in Catalan's case, not because of their wishes).
 
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