Catalonia referendum| Catalonia declares independence from Spain

The silence from European leaders is shameful. Where is the usual condemnation of violent crackdown on democratic movements? Hypocrisy is greater than ever.
 
Revan said:
Forget UK, fecking Iraq behaved better than Spain in this. They threatened and declared the Kurdish referendum illegal, but they didn't send their troops to beat them.

When Iraq of all countries educates a Western country in democracy...thought that day won't ever happen, but unfortunately it did.
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Not really comparable at all.
 
Revan said:
Americans feel Americans, Catalans feel Catalans (not Spanish). They also like to speak in their very different language, instead of speaking in Spanish. They have also historically been oppressed from Spanish.

They don't feel proud of being Spanish, same as Scottish people don't feel proud of being English. Despite that they live in the same country (in Catalan's case, not because of their wishes).
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Scots are not English, they are British. The distinction and order of hierarchy is critical to facilitate the union.

Spain does not have such a structure.
 
Ishdalar said:
First paragraph, nothing to add there, but Rajoy (or the PP in this case) are a problem of their own, no region should declare independency because they fell out with a Party/Ruler that might be 4/8 years at power, that's like divorcing from your wife because you asked her if she could prepare pasta for dinner and she put you a salad in the desk
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That is a big misundersstanding of misleading of the unionist relate. It as the people that started that under the rule of the socialist party and andalucian president in Catalonia. Then it was the catalan politicians that jumped the vagon to safe themselve from th obvious corruption and mantain the chair. But it was always the people, we drag them in.

Ishdalar said:
The last part, in the great scheme about Spain's economy it was a tactical decision to focus the infrastructure and industry closer to the biggest markets in Europe and the Mediterranean (less to roads to build to reach there, faster transport, and all of that) and not having local regions competing against eachother, a plan were Basque Country and Catalunya have the industry power and every other region apports other things for the global network of the whole country. Of course if you want to make those Northeast industries as potent as you could, you might find easier to destroy the ships and docks in the northwest as a bargain coin to join the CE.
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No, it was not a decision of the spanish economy. The catalan economy was completely diferenciated from castillian from the beginning, with that base, the PRIVATE economy made their business at the first industrial revolution (XVIII) and second (XIX,XX), Spain did not decide anything, was private activity from the region.

Ishdalar said:
Which leads to another part of this debate, who fuels the nationalistic thoughts of people? Well, anyone could make a solid case about the old CiU people or the "Catalan bourgeois" pushing harder for independence when your industry is already settled and it's time to "arrimar el hombro" like we say in Spain (help the regions that took the hit to develop the powerful one). But of course, is easier to call off the engagement than doing your part, isn't it?.
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Who fueled? PP because they had no votes in catalonia and going against catalonia was good for their base. CiU NEVER wanted the independence, Artur Mas NEVER wanted that and as I said, they tried to save their ass jumping to the wagon.

Then, nobody took the hit. If the catalans were smarter to implement the "heir" in the families to have a normal sized farm properties and Galician devided all the properties among their kids (minifundio) and in the sound they concentrated in just a few people (latifundio) even nowadays is not our fault. We had been better in businesses in all history, we had been blessed with multiple natural resources and a priviledge geographic situation. But NOBODY took the hit, nobody sacrificed anything for catalonia. But the oposite. Castilla had a veto for catalans to commerce with America the first 2 hundred years.

Doing our part? we have been doing our part for centuries and more than doing our part
 
Ishdalar said:
Catalans and Spanish have been together for centuries, and helped each other a lot of times despite what the actual narrative says.

They go along for a bigger lapse of time than the whole history of the United States, isn't that enough to consider them Spanish? Becose in the US they're damn proud of being Americanfor barely a couple hundred years
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Croatians lived with Hungarians and Austrians for centuries and never felt Hungarian or Austrian. Luckily.
Same with both Yugoslavias although in the shorter time lapse than Catalans and Spanish.

Italians wanted to make Italians of us but that never happened.
 
Revan said:
Btw, to people from Spain here, how are the feelings in non Catalonian parts of what was Kingdom of Aragon? On what side are Valencia, Zaragoza and co?
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I have the most anecdotal data possible - one woman from Valencia, who works in my lab. She supports independence and speaks Catalan with her parents.
 
Revan said:
Americans feel Americans, Catalans feel Catalans (not Spanish). They also like to speak in their very different language, instead of speaking in Spanish. They have also historically been oppressed from Spanish.

They don't feel proud of being Spanish, same as Scottish people don't feel proud of being English. Despite that they live in the same country (in Catalan's case, not because of their wishes).
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Before today, weren't the majority against independence?

Within 50 years, won't Spanish be the majority language in the US?

I'm not sure what your point is here
 
Ishdalar said:
Catalans and Spanish have been together for centuries, and helped each other a lot of times despite what the actual narrative says.

They go along for a bigger lapse of time than the whole history of the United States, isn't that enough to consider them Spanish? Becose in the US they're damn proud of being Americanfor barely a couple hundred years
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You don´t get it, is not about time is about how you feel.
 
sammsky1 said:
Scots are not English, they are British. The distinction and order of hierarchy is critical to facilitate the union. S

Spain does not have such a structure.
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What about Northern Ireland people then? Should they feel proud of being UK-ish? Or are they proud of being Irish (same as Catalans who are proud of being Catalans)?
 
Revan said:
Why so?
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Kurdistan has been all but independent since 1991 thanks to having their own military force (the Peshmerga) supported by the superpower. Baghdad hasn't been able to militarily intervene in Kurdistan since, except when invited in by one of the factions in the Kurdish civil war in the 90s. However Baghdad has promised to use all other measures available to prevent Kurdish independence - blockades, etc.
 
sammsky1 said:
If there is a full strike, will Barcelona players refuse to play for Spain in world cup qualifiers?
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Piqué just said that if voting bothers people he is at peoples decision to quit the national teams. Not even Pep Guardiola quited the national team. Because at the end of the day you look for personal happiness and yes....money
 
berbatrick said:
I have the most anecdotal data possible - one woman from Valencia, who works in my lab. She supports independence and speaks Catalan with her parents.
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A Valencian girl I know gets angry if I call her Spanish, and says that he is Catalan, but know other people from Valencia who feel Spanish, or somewhere in the middle.
rcoobc said:
Before today, weren't the majority against independence?
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We don't know that. Spain prefers to pretend that the problem doesn't exist.

rcoobc said:
Within 50 years, won't Spanish be the majority language in the US?
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You've mistaken me for an oracle, but no, I don't think that it will be.
 
Revan said:
What about Northern Ireland people then? Should they feel proud of being UK-ish? Or are they proud of being Irish (same as Catalans who are proud of being Catalans)?
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Roughly half identify as British, the other half as Irish. Hence the conflict.
 
Almost offically. Catalonia full strike on the 3rd
 
rcoobc said:
Within 50 years, won't Spanish be the majority language in the US?
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Maybe as a first language. But English is too ingrained in the culture for it not to be the naturally spoken language in media and politics.
 
Vato said:
Not justifying the excessive force in some of the places. Not at all, that's disgraceful. But they are doing what is asked of them though, let's not forget that.

Like I said, I couldn't care less if they got their independence or not, I'm actually more in favour as I don't like people who are anti-Spain or against any specific region. I don't want to be the same nationality as people who don't feel proud to be spanish.
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You're going with the "just following orders" defence?
 
Saying all that I'm going to wlingua website for my daily Spanish lesson. :lol:
 
Just a bit OT: left-wing is winning well in Portugal's local elections. Time to siege Rajoy :devil:
 
FlawlessThaw said:
Maybe as a first language. But English is too ingrained in the culture for it not to be the naturally spoken language in media and politics.
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Then it will be a return to ancient Rome, where the ruling class spoke Greek and the lesser classes spoke Latin. (Or Russia, etc).



Or we might see a succession there too
 
4bars said:
That is a big misundersstanding of misleading of the unionist relate. It as the people that started that under the rule of the socialist party and andalucian president in Catalonia. Then it was the catalan politicians that jumped the vagon to safe themselve from th obvious corruption and mantain the chair. But it was always the people, we drag them in.



No, it was not a decision of the spanish economy. The catalan economy was completely diferenciated from castillian from the beginning, with that base, the PRIVATE economy made their business at the first industrial revolution (XVIII) and second (XIX,XX), Spain did not decide anything, was private activity from the region.



Who fueled? PP because they had no votes in catalonia and going against catalonia was good for their base. CiU NEVER wanted the independence, Artur Mas NEVER wanted that and as I said, they tried to save their ass jumping to the wagon.

Then, nobody took the hit. If the catalans were smarter to implement the "heir" in the families to have a normal sized farm properties and Galician devided all the properties among their kids (minifundio) and in the sound they concentrated in just a few people (latifundio) even nowadays is not our fault. We had been better in businesses in all history, we had been blessed with multiple natural resources and a priviledge geographic situation. But NOBODY took the hit, nobody sacrificed anything for catalonia. But the oposite. Castilla had a veto for catalans to commerce with America the first 2 hundred years.

Doing our part? we have been doing our part for centuries and more than doing our part
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You mean the Crown of Aragon? Because that's another thing different from Catalunya, you can't take the Crown of Aragon for some things and leave it out for others, and that's normal being Castilla and Aragon not a proper unified country yet.

But still, following that trail of thought EVERYONE in the whole peninsula was vetoed from commerce with the Americas since you had to register with "Casa de Contratacion" in Sevilla/Cadiz and send your ships from there, not only the Catalans, keep victimizing to earn sympathy.
 
4bars said:
As I said before, we stand alone
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Germany certainly made that clear. Shameful how economic and political interests are allowed to utterly supercede any hint of democratic protection from supposedly 'moral' countries.
 
Ishdalar said:
You mean the Crown of Aragon? Because that's another thing different from Catalunya, you can't take the Crown of Aragon for some things and leave it out for others, and that's normal being Castilla and Aragon not a proper unified country yet.

But still, following that trail of thought EVERYONE in the whole peninsula was vetoed from commerce with the Americas since you had to register with "Casa de Contratacion" in Sevilla/Cadiz and send your ships from there, not only the Catalans, keep victimizing to earn sympathy.
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Semantics...you know what I mean and you know that aragon and barcelona count (what conformed catalonia) had different parliaments and laws

Keep vicimizing? I give you prove that they put a veto (even if anyone else) instead of helping shit
 
B20 said:
Germany certainly made that clear. Shameful how economic and political interests are allowed to utterly supercede any hint of democratic protection from supposedly 'moral' countries.
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emptyless. We will hear a lot of things this days of "poor catalans" but will do zilch
 
newspaper said that the independentist attacked the GC (for feck sake). And guardiola said: " with what? with the ballots?"
 
4bars said:
emptyless. We will hear a lot of things this days of "poor catalans" but will do zilch
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They can't do anything, like I said earlier other countries have the same fears than Spain. For example the south of France isn't exactly fond of Paris.
 
I'm in Bilbao. In the last few minutes, everyone has come out onto their balconies or hanging out of their windows banging pans. Something to do with the events in Catalonia, I presume?

Anyone understand the local customs?!
 
decorativeed said:
I'm in Bilbao. In the last few minutes, everyone has come out onto their balconies or hanging out of their windows banging pans. Something to do with the events in Catalonia, I presume?

Anyone understand the local customs?!
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Yes, some basques wants the independence as well so we sort of feel some mutual empathy
 
decorativeed said:
I'm in Bilbao. In the last few minutes, everyone has come out onto their balconies or hanging out of their windows banging pans. Something to do with the events in Catalonia, I presume?

Anyone understand the local customs?!
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Recall that happening during Gezi and that was a protest against the government. They were also switching lights on and off.
 
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