That both parts did the same fake news, did the same violence. It was one part that had all the resources in media, force and economy and they apply it to try to crush it. Putting us at the same level is false equivalence because a few scattered things happened, normally with that brutality
Catalonia referendum| Catalonia declares independence from Spain
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That both parts did the same fake news, did the same violence. It was one part that had all the resources in media, force and economy and they apply it to try to crush it. Putting us at the same level is false equivalence because a few scattered things happened, normally with that brutality
Every single video is about police brutality, and you know that the "antidisturbios" are volunteers because they like violence and hit, they are mentally ill psichopaths. They are sadistics bastards. The police that I would need is not them, but the normal police (regardless of the corps that they are part of)
No, it wasn't, and I'd be grateful if you stopped lying or playing the pity card in this case, Spain has repressed a lot of its citizens and territories all over our history, not only today, remember the 15M and 2011? All the images of police charging against protestors in Madrid, Valencia, Barcelona, Zaragoza or everywhere? Is not a case of the catalan people being repressed it's a case of police brutality again used to silence the dissident voices against the government.
There's examples of other social revolutions before that one even inside of Spain, and all along Europe
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Irmandiño_revolts
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Popular_revolts_in_late-medieval_Europe
The Catalan police (Mossos) that were regarded as thugs and gorillas a year ago because a lot of cases about their brutality (audio filtrations, a man died from a heart attack in an unjust detention and so on) are the ones being applauded today because there's political interests ordering them to act friendly.
There's no clear "right or wrong" here, is just political interests and enforcing the law to preserve those interests, but that's something everyone in those forces should already know, when you work you leave behind part of you as an individual to enforce the orders you're given
I'd like to see what would happen in other countries in this situation,with an illegal referéndum without rules and a regional government in rebellion
Not justifying the excessive force in some of the places. Not at all, that's disgraceful. But they are doing what is asked of them though, let's not forget that.
Like I said, I couldn't care less if they got their independence or not, I'm actually more in favour as I don't like people who are anti-Spain or against any specific region. I don't want to be the same nationality as people who don't feel proud to be spanish.
Christ... are you a bit thick?
They are doing what is asked of them. Like some wise man once said. "They will be always a couple of people that they can help themselve. But the procedure is very clear"
You didn't disappoint to be fair.
That's the thing though isn't it. They think of themselves as Catalans not Spanish. How can they be proud to be Spanish?
My bad in the revolts, it is something that I read long ago.
And I am sorry, but I am not lying, you are trying to put at the same level 2 parties that one wanted to vote and the other just when to crush them.
I already mentioned the 15-M and I would never dare to say that catalonia is the only region that suffered repression, but is the one that suffered the most and you know it.
So 15-M was alright to protest and silence the voice of dissidents but this was just police task defending the law? I see
Catalonia leaders have been asking for a referendum for years, and Spain didn't even negotiate it. If Spain allowed a legal referendum, the illegal referendum wouldn't have happened.
If you would like to see what would have happened in a democratic country if some part of it want to get separated, you can look at UK. But clearly, you prefer the Iraq/Yugoslavia scenarios.
A legal referendum would seem the obvious answer.
For starters, a referendum will not be illegal in most of the countries in europe nowadays
That's the problem with yes/no questions like this. It divides a wedge into society and creates a fault line.
In reality, there will be lots of people who vote for independence because they dislike the central government or the system, many who vote for independence because they feel they will be better off, many who vote for independence because they feel they haven't been listened too. (I'm not talking about Spain/Catalonia here, just indy refs in general). Many who vote for Independence for all sorts of reasons.
And even if 52% vote for independence, that leaves 48% living in a country they didn't want to live in. How does that possibly work?
Compromise shouldn't be a dirty word.
But you can't shut them down like this. That's entirely wrong.
I'm trying to stay civil, but am finding it pretty hard with accusations like this.
So I think the best thing to do is walk away here. Have fun in this thread and in your paranoid life.
You are not justifying, you are laughing at it, plain an simple.
I repeat, they are asked to attacked brutally? Seriously, how you can say that with a straight face? well, you are behind a laptop so probably you are even smirking.
So you think police actions were justifiable?
Civil, laughing at bloodied people just entering at the thread. Applause
If that is spanish civilization, count me out...again
How can someone be proud of being something that he isn't. Catalans aren't Spanish, so asking them to be proud of being Spanish, is like asking you to be proud of being a Belgian.
Of course he does, like vato. When they answer straight the question they denied but in every single sentence they indirectly justify it and even like it
We are a 500 years old country.Time enough to feel integrated
I think It could be 50/50
In other more possibly democratic countries this referendum wouldn’t be illegal in the first place. Look at the UK and Scotland - that’s how to do a referendum.
And anyway the far better approach would have been to just let the referendum happen and declare it illegal after. Not all this violence which is just going to intensify the bitterness
Quite dystopian scenes.
I love the line about 'standing to the police' or something. I guess Vato and carvajal would in the same situation, where they would just stand in front of the police with raised arms and policeman would beat him with baton, say to themselves: It's all right, it's my fault, I stood in front of the police."
Thats another lie. 500 years sharing a king. the first 200 we had our own currency laws and parliament, and when in 1714 you subjegate us is when we "became" a countrym abolishing our laws, rights and forbiding our language
Just a parentesis. Thanks guys from All the other countries, with the official relate, I thought I was getting crazy like in 1984 that nobody was seeing what I was seeing. we are a tiny dot in any international concern
Yeah I guess Spanish goverments gave their all for them to feel integrated. Franco especially.
I mean, come on ffs.
Let me guess, was it a UFO?
Soraya Saenz de Santamaria , Spanish vice president, justifying the agression as a moderate and proportional action against people who only wanted to vote:
https://twitter.com/Juanmi_News/stat...38690936016899
Priceless.
https://twitter.com/Juanmi_News/stat...38690936016899
Priceless.
They're just getting worse and worse.
And during the entire those 500 years, a large partition of Catalans wanted a free Catalonia. In turn, Spain outlawed their language and tradition.
It is for them to decide if they want to get integrated in the country, not for you to force them to do so.
Thing is, obviously not everyone can decide that they want independence. But in case of Catalonia, we have a large group (we are talking for 12m people), who have their own identity, language and traditions. If them don't want to live the you, you think that the solution is to go and beat them?
Imagine things getting turned a bit and in a few years, Spain deciding to leave EU, but then Germans and French coming to beat you for doing so. You would like it to happen, right? After all it might even be legal if some bureaucrats sign a piece of paper somewhere, right?
I don't understand why Yugoslavia is constantly used as a reference here, it's a completely difference scenario.
^ well put @Revan
Forget UK, fecking Iraq behaved better than Spain in this. They threatened and declared the Kurdish referendum illegal, but they didn't send their troops to beat them.
When Iraq of all countries educates a Western country in democracy...thought that day won't ever happen, but unfortunately it did.
It has similarities.
Of course I am, because the party that wanted to vote went through that with a bullshit way to achieve it (like I told you before you went to sleep, and never got an answer) while rightfully knowing they were dividing people and creating a rupture in society, not because it was inherent to their way of doing things, because politics and other figures (and not from the PP/right wing, even leftists and other independentists) WARNED them
If you think Catalunya have been the most repressed region in Spain then you're already lost and bought every lie from a bunch of corrupt politics, read about how people lived in the Basque Country in the 80s/90s, or about the 30s in Asturias.
Everytime I hear about the repression and Spain "stealing" from Catalunya I instantly roll my eyes, here in the Northwest we didn't have a proper highway until 1996, they robbed us of our future by destroying every industry and limiting the quota of the food industry (milk, fish and meat for example) while Catalunya thrived in every way with the starving immigrants that had to leave the forgotten regions of Extremadura, Andalucia or Galicia (deprived of merely having the chance to compete against other Spanish/European regions from a central government that had all his chips put on the Mediterranean and the Basque country).
A worst case scenario?
All situations are different, but there exist some clear parallels (i.e a part of a country with different traditions, language and culture who have been historically oppressed wanting to get separated, and in turn, the government throwing their troops to beat them).
Catalanism invented the history of 1714,to create a war against you
Where do you live? Galicia?