But who were Spurs holding onto during that time? Which player was so good that he would have improved an elite club but stayed at Spurs nevertheless? Modric and Bale both left, i don't remember any other interesting player.
Bundesliga 2016/17
- Thread starter Piratesoup
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You. You compared selling Kagawa to holding on to Eriksen.
It makes sense because those transfers represent great business for Dortmund, both in terms of finances and in terms of sporting success. The fact that it would've been even better if some of them stayed longer doesn't take anything away from the benefits they produce while they are at the club. Dembele for example is already delivering the output of a senior player.
Kagawa is not really a fitting example, Dortmund basically tripled their revenue since then and he's not a star player at Dortmund anymore either. Infact the signing of Dahoud might actually spell the end of him at the club.
before that they had 136 Million, before that 100 Million, again which is in line with the revenue of Spurs (haven't checked them all the way to that point)
Like I said, it's not superstar or nothing.
No I didn't. Selling Mkhitaryan was compared to holding on to Eriksen.
Fair enough but different people different expectations. I would be pissed off if we develop Martial and he fecks off to Madrid or somewhere else before winning trophies for ManUtd.
Still ignoring that they had to pay off a lot of debt, also still using inherently wrong numbers. Where do you even get these from? They had a revenue jump of 136 million to 305 million from 2011 to 2013. Still didn't make a profit because of the debt.
First of all, fair play and hats off to you for taking on the whole mob here
On topic, ok, but then we'd have to look at the specific players.
How many of Spurs players are hyped Europe-wide? Pretty much none, because their performances in Europe have been consistently poor.
Now obviously Kane, Alli, Eriksen and a few others are excellent young players who have been performing great in the league, but the hype is just starting to catch on. If they confirm their performances, you will see bigger clubs than Spurs come targeting them for real, and then we'll see how long-term they will be at Spurs.
Another thing is, if Spurs don't make the step up to proper title contenders and a European team to be taken seriously, and they flat out refuse to let players leave under any circumstance that are courted and want out, top talents might opt against joining them in the future if they feel they are joining a prison.
On the other hand,
a) BVB were overachievers under Klopp, with their European exposure not matching their financial strength, so there was a different dynamic at play considering the forces pulling players out. Once Kane scores four goals in a CL semi against Real as Lewandowski did, you'd see what happens and whether he'll still be happy to stay and renew his contract at Tottenham.
b) In Bundesliga, in recent years Bayern, due to our current success on top of our fundamental financial advantage, have much more visibly been a potential step up for players even of BVB. I'd argue that we have more pull over any Bundesliga player than say Chelsea or Man United have over Spurs players, simply because there the difference isn't that big at the moment.
c) let' not forget specific circumstances, like pain in the ass Raiola tormenting BVB to the point where they'd let Mkhi go - it's not a step up from a football standpoint, only from a financial one. Raiola also had Pogba sold to Utd for financial reasons (because Juve are already the far superior team).
That's an emotional argument though.
And besides, I don't get the Spurs comparison at all. Spurs get dumped out of Europe bei mediocre teams, while Dortmund go toe to toe with Real. Spurs could hold on to Eriksen and his one assist in the CL while they had to sell Modric and Bale, Dortmund held on to Reus and Aubameyang, while they sold Mkhitaryan. Don't really see the significance.
What wrong numbers? I have taken numbers from google search. The time frame I'm using they had a debt for around 40 Million, not sure that's so much.
First of all, fair play and hats off to you for taking on the whole mob here
On topic, ok, but then we'd have to look at the specific players.
How many of Spurs players are hyped Europe-wide? Pretty much none, because their performances in Europe have been consistently poor.
Now obviously Kane, Alli, Eriksen and a few others are excellent young players who have been performing great in the league, but the hype is just starting to catch on. If they confirm their performances, you will see bigger clubs than Spurs come targeting them for real, and then we'll see how long-term they will be at Spurs.
Another thing is, if Spurs don't make the step up to proper title contenders and a European team to be taken seriously, and they flat out refuse to let players leave under any circumstance that are courted and want out, top talents might opt against joining them in the future if they feel they are joining a prison.
On the other hand,
a) BVB were overachievers under Klopp, with their European exposure not matching their financial strength, so there was a different dynamic at play considering the forces pulling players out. Once Kane scores four goals in a CL semi against Real as Lewandowski did, you'd see what happens and whether he'll still be happy to stay and renew his contract at Tottenham.
b) In Bundesliga, in recent years Bayern, due to our current success on top of our fundamental financial advantage, have much more visibly been a potential step up for players even of BVB. I'd argue that we have more pull over any Bundesliga player than say Chelsea or Man United have over Spurs players, simply because there the difference isn't that big at the moment.
c) let' not forget specific circumstances, like pain in the ass Raiola tormenting BVB to the point where they'd let Mkhi go - it's not a step up from a football standpoint, only from a financial one. Raiola also had Pogba sold to Utd for financial reasons (because Juve are already the far superior team).
Who knows saying Dortmund should retain players like other clubs of similar revenue did will provoke such reactions
Now you are talking about hype, agents and everything. Spurs have flat out refused to sell Modric to Chelsea and that didn't stop players like Eriksen, Alli joining them.
Not emotional argument, more like football argument rather than accountant.
Dortmund were shit in Bundesliga just 2 seasons ago, dumped out in EL by Liverpool. So what? Do I need to remind you Dortmund's performance in CL before making the finals?
Again goes on show how underrated Eriksen is. Not saying Spurs team did well in Europe (I have argued so much on Redcafe that they are underwhelming in Europe) but they have excellent team in PL and none of the rich PL teams are able to take away their players.
Transfer stategy stands and fall with the finances of the club. Therefore you can't just ignore that side, but rather have to include it every step of the way.
You were the one comparing the two clubs one for one. But now we're comparing 16/17 Spurs to 11/12 Dortmund?
It kind of is. All the players Dortmund didn't want to let go went to the top tier clubs. Sahin to Real, Kagawa to United, Götze to Bayern, Lewandowski to Bayern, Mkhitaryan to United, Hummels to Bayern, Gündogan to City.
Most of these players can be considered as superstars or world class talent.
What wrong numbers? I have taken numbers from google search. The time frame I'm using they had a debt for around 40 Million, not sure that's so much.
Who knows saying Dortmund should retain players like other clubs of similar revenue did will provoke such reactions
Now you are talking about hype, agents and everything. Spurs have flat out refused to sell Modric to Chelsea and that didn't stop players like Eriksen, Alli joining them.
Not emotional argument, more like football argument rather than accountant.
Dortmund were shit in Bundesliga just 2 seasons ago, dumped out in EL by Liverpool. So what? Do I need to remind you Dortmund's performance in CL before making the finals?
Again goes on show how underrated Eriksen is. Not saying Spurs team did well in Europe (I have argued so much on Redcafe that they are underwhelming in Europe) but they have excellent team in PL and none of the rich PL teams are able to take away their players.
The numbers you are using are wrong. Which kinda makes me wonder where you got them, the right ones are easy to find. I just posted them, use those.
Others have taken away their players. And the only two really interesting ones players they have now will as well. No, a 27 year old Danish without any accomplishments at the big stage does not count as one.
I'm still baffled by that comparison. Spurs have sold as well, they are playing in a league with much more media attention, which is naturally more interesting to foreign players, they haven't been debt ridden just recently and they did not have any players getting as much attention until recently as Dortmunds have. Even Atletico, just as overachieving as Klopps Dortmund, would have been a better comparison.
Yes. I compared the 2 clubs having same revenue, 1 club able to retain players and 1 isn't.
None of them are superstars or world class players except Lewandowski.
@roonster09 successfully fighting on more simultaneous front lines than the German Wehrmacht would have dared to hope even in their wildest dreams
I said 191 Million and you said they had 2/3rd of revenue season before that. That's around 130 Million, roughly the same number I posted.
27 year old Danish without any accomplishments and then go on to post names like Auba, Weigl, Reus who haven't won anything significant or accomplished anything. Nice.
Atletico are in different league to Dormund whether you like it or not, just like Dortmund are to Spurs. It's not about team accomplishments. I don't know why it's so hard to understand. It's about retaining players.
That is 09/10 - Dortmund was not even in top 20
That is a year later
That is a year later
@roonster09 successfully fighting on more simultaneous front lines than the German Wehrmacht would have dared to hope even in their wildest dreams
Didn't know saying "Clubs should retain the players they developed" was so offensive in Germany.
Now you're overextending yourself quite a little though. Could this be your Stalingrad?
So you think Kagawa, Sahin, Mkhitaryan are all world class players or the injured Gundogan?
Come on man.
Thanks for reminding, forget to check the money league.
2011-12: Dortmund (196M) vs Spurs (178M)
2012-13: 256 vs 172
2013-14: 261 vs 215
2014-15: 280 vs 257
2015-16: 283 vs 279
Like I said, Dortmund and Spurs have nearly same revenues and same wages. One team is managing contracts well while the other isn't. Credit to Dortmund for doing so well despite that.
You confuse the Kagawa and Sahin of the past with the Sahin and Kagawa of the present. Kagawa just played two awesome seaons winning the german title twice when he moved. Sahin was one of the biggest CM talents in world football. Mkhitaryan just played an impressive season and won one of the 20 players of the season awards. Gundogan in 2012/2013 performed at a level most CMs never reach in their lifetime, his injuries also were a reason why Dortmund didn't extend the contract for longer than one year
No. I'm talking about Kagawa and Sahin of 2011-12 season and no, they weren't world class players. Gundogan 2012-13 was superb CM but we are talking about Gundogan 2016 when he left Dortmund.
At the moment of their transfer, more or less yes.
Kagawa maybe the least, but he was voted best player in Bundesliga 11/12, as was Mkhi whose 15/16 season rivalled De Bruyne's 14/15 one, Gündogan was arguably the best central midfielder in the world in 2012/13 and would have left earlier if not for his injuries, before Sahin was similarly rated as Gündogan was after him, Götze was hugely hyped as a WC talent, and I don't think I need to dig up the, I assume, 1000s of transfer fantasy pages about Hummels on here.
At the moment of their transfers, all of them were regarded as either stars already or potential world class (unless you retain the world class label for Messi, Neymar and Ronaldo). To claim otherwise is hugely revisionist.
I want to add something that in my eyes influences that situation, too:
I think, that the whole situation in the Bundesliga is different to the EPL. With the EPL TV contracts a lot of the future income of the club is not related so much on success as it is for a team like Dortmund - with the 50+ rule hanging in behind, too, that somehow makes the German clubs to work much more relieable and not too risk too much financially - there is no possibility of an owner backing when things go wrong...
As a result German clubs have a lot lower wage to revenue rate than the EPL clubs have. Dortmund has a lot "success related" components in their wages, too.
That's just deliberately silly. First of all Spurs have indeed been forced to sell players in the near past, Dortmund have also been able to hold on to several players, so it's not really black and white. Moreover Spurs escaped mediocrity only a year ago, so that's one summer window, while bottling things big time in Europe, whereas Dortmund's players have been in the shop window that is the CL for 5 years now. You're comparing a 5 year time frame to a 1 year window.
It's just as silly as claiming United are better at attracting big signings than Real because the last summer window looked like that.
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So we are considering some site awards also? None of the Dortmund players won best player in Germany for years.
When Gundogan left Dortmund he wasn't world class player, he was a player with huge question mark on his fitness. Gotze was awesome when he left though. Kagawa, Sahin were all good players nothing more.
AFAIK, Dembele and Weigl are rated very highly from Dortmund. We have so many who wants half of the Spurs team too. Not sure how that's going to help. There are posts saying we have to break the bank for Alli, Kane, Dier and few others.
Last time Spurs sold player against their will was Bale and that was some 4 years ago.
Football is not in stone age. Players are scouted in all competitions, ages. So not playing in CL doesn't mean they weren't monitored or scouted.
It's just silly to think being in CL is being in shop window. If anything that should give Dortmund enough reasons to hold on to their players than Spurs who were in Europa league.
First of all you're talking now about the present, not about the past. Who knows how many of those players really leave in the next few seasons and for which fees.
And it has a bit to do with how average your squad currently is, less with how good the Spurs players are.
I maybe be wrong here but the few seasons I checked Spurs and Dortmund had very similar wages.
Just leave us alone with those fecking Spurs will you
You think performance at the highest competitive level doesn't drive interest while failing at mediocre level doesn't deter it? Ok, whatever.
I mean we're not even touching on the question how you'Re going to convince players to stay once they'Ve made up their mind to leave and their contract is expiring.
That was in reply to the post saying we have fantasy lineups with lot of Dortmund players. On Redcafe we do that with every team players.
That's true, but then again hype does play a role with high profile transfers, because those are to a certain amount political as much as their are football-related, especially when we're talking about Real. But also for example the Pogba transfer to United can be better explained with hype and politics than with football and scouting.
The silly thing about this whole discussion though is that in their own way, Spurs are indeed a very well run club themselves. Their net spending over many years has been minimal compared to other top PL clubs, and what they achieve with it is as remarkable as it, paradoxically, is unspectacular.
You think this is your house or something? You can ignore and not respond, or just not read the posts at all. Simple as that.
That didn't stop Madrid signing players like Bale, Modric, Di Maria, Ozil or Barca with Suarez, Rakitic, Alba who didn't do much in CL or Europa. Even then players like Kagawa, Sahin did nothing in CL but still left Dortmund. So performances in CL hardly mattered isn't it?
Their contract is expiring is the issue, is it co incidence that same team faced the issue so many times?
Pogba bit is nonsense. Jose wanted to sign him when he was at Chelsea but couldn't. It's not like Pogba did well for Juventus and France before moving to ManUtd eh?
Spurs are very well run club just like Dortmund are. Only thing I said is Spurs retained players well and even dealt the contracts so well. Not sure what's so wrong with that.
Interesting indeed. You think of the most doing well atm, but when someone from outside of England thinks about their players, you have the images of Kane the bottler, the next likely completely overrated English man that is Alli and a ton of mediocre stuff nobody else really wanted, like Verthongen or Song. Not saying these players ARE like that, just that this is their image.
What some no-namers on internet board thinks and what scouts/coaches think are very different.
I didn't say that Pogba is not a top player, he is and I like him a lot, but still the whole affair, including the fee, is drenched in hype and politics. That's pretty clear and not nonsense at all.
Nothing wrong whatsoever with lauding Spurs for the way they run their club and contracts. But then the reason we're having this huge exhausting battle here, almost like a message board Verdun, is not that someone decided to claim something is wrong with Spurs in the Bundesliga thread is it?
I never said CL was the only criterium, but it's funny that you mention Bale, since it was a certain match against Inter that really put him on the map.
Quite similar to a certain Pole and his four goals against Real.
Quite similar to a certain Pole and his four goals against Real.
It's because someone said the German club did something wrong or not as good as others.
Bale wasn't signed because he scored hattrick against half arsed Maicon, he was signed because he single handedly carried Spurs attack and scored some amazing goals.
What you said happened in 2010-11 season, Bale was signed in 2013-14 season. Maybe you noticed Bale from that moment but Bale was very well know for many years before that.
Comparing revenues can be misleading, as german clubs have higher running costs than british ones, due to taxes, etc.
It still can't be denied, that british players have a comparably bad price/performance ratio. Kane and Alli are pretty good, but their absurd price tags for being pretty good *british* players put them off the radar by default.