[Jeppers7]

How about United and Sporting with Bruno in it?
I bet domestic trophies don't count though right?

It's fine, moving goalposts is something you're good at.

Major trophies the poster asked for? Three league cups and one domestic cup in Portugal, playing for a team that has been more successful since he left, is your justification? That he has only won a league cup in 3.5 years at United is everyone else’s fault?

We currently have players who have won multiple leagues and some who have won CLs in their careers.

 

[roonster09]

People arguing about trophies as if trophies are won by individual players

 

[zaafi]

People arguing about trophies as if trophies are won by individual players

Here you go again, "it's all a team game", "you need 10 outfield players syncing perfectly to control a match", "trophies aren't won by individual players". Of course they can be won by individual players, even if it's a whole team playing. Isn't that exactly what Bruno is being praised for? Being able to change the game in a moment with a perfect pass?

What are your thoughts on his Arsenal performance, by the way?

 

[Jeppers7]

I did not know that. That makes it much worse, but it also makes sense. Yet to some, he's our saviour.

Yes but we won’t have to wait long until they pipe up with…that was the Covid season.

It was the season that started with games behind closed doors, not the one when Liverpool won it. The one City won that nobody claims should have an asterix against.

That said I’m sure they would be saying exactly the same had United won the league that year. Especially if Bruno was central to it.

 

[Scandi Red]

Gerrard must be particularly happy about the one big trophy he won. Had they not won it that year, then he would be blamed for Liverpool's very moderate trophy haul between 1998 and 2015! That's how football works apparently.

 

[roonster09]

Here you go again, "it's all a team game", "you need 10 outfield players syncing perfectly to control a match", "trophies aren't won by individual players". Of course they can be won by individual players, even if it's a whole team playing. Isn't that exactly what Bruno is being praised for? Being able to change the game in a moment with a perfect pass?

What are your thoughts on his Arsenal performance, by the way?

Please don't tell me you are dumb enough to believe that, especially "Major trophies".

I didn't watch Arsenal game properly as I was attending some other important work, thats why I haven't commented on anything on that game.

 

[zaafi]

Gerrard must be particularly happy about the one big trophy he won. Had they not won it that year, then he would be blamed for Liverpool's very moderate trophy haul between 1998 and 2015! That's how football works apparently.

This would be an okay point if Bruno was one of the best midfielders in the Premier League's history, and Gerrard hadn't won CL, in which he was a vital part of a sensational comeback against the best team in the world and also scored a goal. I'm not saying there aren't big players that have never won trophies, but there is often a correlation.

 

[zaafi]

Please don't tell me you are dumb enough to believe that, especially "Major trophies".

I didn't watch Arsenal game properly as I was attending some other important work, thats why I haven't commented on anything on that game.

Apparently, I am dumb enough to believe that. How is it not? Instead of insulting all the time, you know, being a scout and all, maybe you should explain why you think it's not true. Moments can win Champions League finals, and moments can be created by individual players.

 

[Scandi Red]

I'm not saying there aren't big players that have never won trophies

And the opposite is even more true. Lots of not that great players have won big trophies. Multiple.

It's an incredibly low stakes "bet" considering the state of our club, but would you change your mind on Bruno if we won the PL or CL with him as a regular?

 

[NZT-One]

Payet was moved wide because he couldn't operate centrally with any sort of consistency when it came to the basic of being a 10, wide you can hide his flaws and focus on his strengths. As for De Bruyne, you could say that they are a similar type of player but there are two differences, De Bruyne is more consistent against top opposition, is better at controlling a situation through carries, his positioning his better whcih makes him an integral part of City's ball movement schemes. But it's true that he is a high risk player, he tries passes that shouldn't be tried and misses a fair amount of them.

Bruno like the others needs a system that protect him from himself but because you can't trust his floor, it's questionable if it's worth it. And if you try it, it won't be as a 10 because his fundamentals are not there, Bruno never mkaes things easy for his teammates, his movement duing the recycling phase his terrible, he can't carry the ball well, and he often struggles to keep possession under pressure.

Sounds harsh but hard to disagree.

You keep going on and on about keeping possession, but I'm not sure if I would have this in my top 5 most important skills for an AM. Definitely not in my top 3!

It feels like you are shaping your illustrous top 5 to suit your argument though. Don't get me wrong, I can understand some of the things you say but it doesn't sound at all, as if you are ready to acknowledge, that people consider Bruno as an issue. He isn't THE issue. He is one issue. And maybe not even because of him alone but because he is the embodiement of many problematic things happening at United football-wise.

One person having an absolute mare in this thread.
It's like a personal vendetta which has clouded any reasonable viewpoint.

Pretty sure getting personal will not help to better the discussion. You are aware that you can simply ignore posts or posters, we don't have to agree to one superior opinion, are you?

I can't fathom how a United fan can be so fond of Bruno when he has not performed once in a big game. Are there any other United player who has been defended so badly despite never playing well in a big game?

You know, I am usually more on your side of the argument but stuff like that is just silly. If you aren't fond of a player, that is fine and well. But you can't dictate or judge others with different views. Some fans are more in for the highlights and that is when Bruno is involved most of the time. For better or worse, you have to accept that.

Again, I see where you are coming from but the deeper this discussion goes, the more it makes the appearance as if you consider Bruno as the only and biggest issue of our squad. Which doesn't make any sense. He is just one player, he isn't the sole reason, why we are so vertical, he isn't the reason, why the manager sets his side up the way he does and he is not the only one to give the ball away too often.
Obviously, he certainly shouldn't be free from criticism but as soon as it seems he is singled out, it doesn't make much sense anymore. You have to accept, that he is here. And to a degree, we have to make work with him and try to find a way, to get the best out of him as well. Just leaving him off the pitch alone won't change a single thing, stuff has to happen simultaniously.

 

[zaafi]

And the opposite is even more true. Lots of not that great players have won big trophies. Multiple.

It's an incredibly low stakes "bet" considering the state of our club, but would you change your mind on Bruno if we won the PL or CL with him as a regular?

If Bruno delivered on a consistent basis enough for us to win PL, or even perform in a big game for once which ensured a CL title, I'd love him. The problem is that he delivers a 10/10 performance where he scores a goal and bags two assists against Burnley, then plays three 4/10 matches where he doesn't do anything. Extremely prone to losing his head, so if things don't go our way, we're in trouble.

Genuine question here, though. How can a player that disappears in big games be so loved by United fans? Can you imagine Roy Keane, Scholes or Carrick not showing up in big games and being praised?

 

[roonster09]

Apparently, I am dumb enough to believe that. How is it not? Instead of insulting all the time, you know, being a scout and all, maybe you should explain why you think it's not true. Moments can win Champions League finals, and moments can be created by individual players.

You still need your 10 other players to play well to win major trophies.

Now are you going to tell me Kane isn't good enough? Or will you change your tune when Kane wins default trophies with Bayern?

The player you champion all the time, Odegaard, what has he won? Maybe he isn't good enough either?
David Silva as great as he was, won almost nothing before he joined City. Wasn't he good enough for top teams to win major trophies?
Maybe Reus wasn't great player either as he didn't win "major trophies".

Or is Kovacic a great player for winning 4-5 CL trophies playing as a sub and few mins here and there.

You need a very good team with good coach to win major trophies, one individual won't win it.

 

[zaafi]

You still need your 10 other players to play well to win major trophies.

Now are you going to tell me Kane isn't good enough? Or will you change your tune when Kane wins default trophies with Bayern?

The player you champion all the time, Odegaard, what has he won? Maybe he isn't good enough either?
David Silva as great as he was, won almost nothing before he joined City. Wasn't he good enough for top teams to win major trophies?
Maybe Reus wasn't great player either as he didn't win "major trophies".

Or is Kovacic a great player for winning 4-5 CL trophies playing as a sub and few mins here and there.

You need a very good team with good coach to win major trophies, one individual won't win it.

I already said in the post above that there are great players that haven't won major trophies, but there is often a correlation.

David Silva is a strange example, though, given he played for Valencia prior to joining City and won Premier League within two seasons of joining.

Of course you need the rest of the players to play well, but the player in question is Bruno, and he does not perform well in big games himself, so where does that leave us? It was inevitable that he would perform like he did against Arsenal, which is why I asked you of your thoughts on his performance. If a key player who is meant to be our attacking force can't do that, and can't perform in any big game, how can we win anything? It's a genuine question, by the way, because I just don't see any way where we can.

 

[roonster09]

I already said in the post above that there are great players that haven't won major trophies, but there is often a correlation.

David Silva is a strange example, though, given he played for Valencia prior to joining City and won Premier League within two seasons of joining.

Of course you need the rest of the players to play well, but the player in question is Bruno, and he does not perform well in big games himself, so where does that leave us? It was inevitable that he would perform like he did against Arsenal, which is why I asked you of your thoughts on his performance. If a key player who is meant to be our attacking force can't do that, and can't perform in any big game, how can we win anything? It's a genuine question, by the way, because I just don't see any way where we can.

Doesn't matter if it's Bruno or someone else, my point is you can't rely on individual player to win the major trophies. Forget winning trophies, you can't even rely on individual player to do one of the 3 aspects of the game, defending, control, attacking. Not even just individuals, you can't even rely on one department to do it, you need 11 players to do that.

Attackers are not the only one responsible for attacking, likewise defenders are not the only one responsible for defending. Biggest of them all, midfielders are not the only one responsible for controlling the game. It's defend from the front, build from the back and control as a unit.

How is David Silva strange example, he started playing for Valencia who won league just a year before he made his debut and won UEFA cup. And then you have Odegaard who haven't won anything of note but player easily good enough to play for top team competing for major trophies.

 

[RedStarUnited]

Doesn't matter if it's Bruno or someone else, my point is you can't rely on individual player to win the major trophies. Forget winning trophies, you can't even rely on individual player to do one of the 3 aspects of the game, defending, control, attacking. Not even just individuals, you can't even rely on one department to do it, you need 11 players to do that.

Attackers are not the only one responsible for attacking, likewise defenders are not the only one responsible for defending. Biggest of them all, midfielders are not the only one responsible for controlling the game. It's defend from the front, build from the back and control as a unit.

How is David Silva strange example, he started playing for Valencia who won league just a year before he made his debut and won UEFA cup. And then you have Odegaard who haven't won anything of note but player easily good enough to play for top team competing for major trophies.

Silva was 23 or something when he joined City. I think Odegaard is similar age now.

Bruno turns 29 this week. What is the point you are making here?

 

[JPRouve]

You still need your 10 other players to play well to win major trophies.

Now are you going to tell me Kane isn't good enough? Or will you change your tune when Kane wins default trophies with Bayern?

The player you champion all the time, Odegaard, what has he won? Maybe he isn't good enough either?
David Silva as great as he was, won almost nothing before he joined City. Wasn't he good enough for top teams to win major trophies?
Maybe Reus wasn't great player either as he didn't win "major trophies".

Or is Kovacic a great player for winning 4-5 CL trophies playing as a sub and few mins here and there.

You need a very good team with good coach to win major trophies, one individual won't win it.

In 07-08 Valencia could lineup with that which is a more talented set of players than most current top teams:

------------------Villa
Mata---------Silva-------Joaquin
---------Banega---Albelda
Moretti-Albiol-Marchena-Miguel

Synergy is extremely important in team sports and that's why people shouldn't be blinded by individual stats or the idea that if a particular player is replaced with a different profile doom will follow.

 

[zaafi]

Doesn't matter if it's Bruno or someone else, my point is you can't rely on individual player to win the major trophies. Forget winning trophies, you can't even rely on individual player to do one of the 3 aspects of the game, defending, control, attacking. Not even just individuals, you can't even rely on one department to do it, you need 11 players to do that.

Attackers are not the only one responsible for attacking, likewise defenders are not the only one responsible for defending. Biggest of them all, midfielders are not the only one responsible for controlling the game. It's defend from the front, build from the back and control as a unit.

How is David Silva strange example, he started playing for Valencia who won league just a year before he made his debut and won UEFA cup. And then you have Odegaard who haven't won anything of note but player easily good enough to play for top team competing for major trophies.

It is a strange example because he made his debut at 20, and they also compete with giants at the time like Real Madrid and Barcelona. Tough burden to put on a 20 year old who just made his debut for Valencia. Another reason it is strange is because he won the league with City within two years of joining.

Ødegaard plays in a team that plays brilliant football and was the best team in the league up until City realised they had to do something, and very clearly second best team in the league now. He plays a huge role in that. Not only does he run the show for them in midfield and offensively, he works just as hard as Bruno with more sprints.

 

[roonster09]

It is a strange example because he made his debut at 20, and they also compete with giants at the time like Real Madrid and Barcelona. Tough burden to put on a 20 year old who just made his debut for Valencia. Another reason it is strange is because he won the league with City within two years of joining.

Ødegaard plays in a team that plays brilliant football and was the best team in the league up until City realised they had to do something, and very clearly second best team in the league now. He plays a huge role in that. Not only does he run the show for them in midfield and offensively, he works just as hard as Bruno with more sprints.

Which proves the point I was making. You need strong team with strong coach to win trophies, not just individual players.

Re Odegaard, now that shifting goal posts. Where are the major trophies?

 

[roonster09]

Silva was 23 or something when he joined City. I think Odegaard is similar age now.

Bruno turns 29 this week. What is the point you are making here?

Read it from the first if you want to understand.

 

[roonster09]

In 07-08 Valencia could lineup with that which is a more talented set of players than most current top teams:

------------------Villa
Mata---------Silva-------Joaquin
---------Banega---Albelda
Moretti-Albiol-Marchena-Miguel

Synergy is extremely important in team sports and that's why people shouldn't be blinded by individual stats or the idea that if a particular player is replaced with a different profile doom will follow.

Exactly, that front 4 would shit on our attack and we don't have a CM who can keep the ball like Banega.

Like you said, it's a team sport. It's unfortunate and also weird that people think single player wins trophies or single player controls the game.

Ideally we should be in a position like City where you can replace any player, you still don't see drop in level. We are so far from that.

 

[zaafi]

Which proves the point I was making. You need strong team with strong coach to win trophies, not just individual players.

Re Odegaard, now that shifting goal posts. Where are the major trophies?

David Silva joins City in the 2010/11 season. The next season they win Premier League for the first time in over 40 years, and you don't seem interested in giving him credit despite being incredible for them that season. Why can you not give credit to individual players, instead of all the talk about strong team with strong manager? A strong team is formed by a bunch of individual players. Some of them strengthen the team much more than others. As a side note, if it hadn't been for Agüero, we would have won the Premier League then, so again, individual players with match winning moments can win trophies.

Ødegaard hasn't won anything yet. He is also 4 years younger than Bruno and twice as good in almost every aspect of the game other than creating chances. I've said this twice now, but there are great players that haven't won anything.

 

[zaafi]

Exactly, that front 4 would shit on our attack and we don't have a CM who can keep the ball like Banega.

Like you said, it's a team sport. It's unfortunate and also weird that people think single player wins trophies or single player controls the game.

Ideally we should be in a position like City where you can replace any player, you still don't see drop in level. We are so far from that.

Banega was great with the ball, but they also had David Silva as their CAM who is also fantastic with the ball. So ideally we would get an attacking midfielder who is able to handle the ball as well? It's easy to only credit Banega, but he would not be able to be as effective with Bruno ahead of him.

 

[roonster09]

David Silva joins City in the 2010/11 season. The next season they win Premier League for the first time in over 40 years, and you don't seem interested in giving him credit despite being incredible for them that season. Why can you not give credit to individual players, instead of all the talk about strong team with strong manager? A strong team is formed by a bunch of individual players. Some of them strengthen the team much more than others. As a side note, if it hadn't been for Agüero, we would have won the Premier League then, so again, individual players with match winning moments can win trophies.

Ødegaard hasn't won anything yet. He is also 4 years younger than Bruno and twice as good in almost every aspect of the game other than creating chances. I've said this twice now, but there are great players that haven't won anything.

David Silva played for the team that just won La lIga title and didn't win anything. Like you mentioned if not for Aguero then he wouldn't have won title for another 3 years. Ofcourse to win anything a goal should be scored, so one or the other player will make that difference but that player alone is not enough. I mean its not really difficult concept. They needed few players to combine to score equalizing goal just few seconds before Aguero goal.

Again on Odegaard, he didn't win major trophies. I'm sticking to the simplest logic used by you. At this point he isn't good enough player to win major trophies. Who knows what happens in future, same with Saka, Rice, Saliba, Son, Kane and other good players who haven't won League title or CL.

 

[roonster09]

Banega was great with the ball, but they also had David Silva as their CAM who is also fantastic with the ball. So ideally we would get an attacking midfielder who is able to handle the ball as well? It's easy to only credit Banega, but he would not be able to be as effective with Bruno ahead of him.

Don't try too hard and not everything is about crediting and discrediting players, go out and have some fresh air.

It is possible to make general posts without discrediting other players, maybe its strange and alien concept for you but it is possible.

 

[zaafi]

David Silva played for the team that just won La lIga title and didn't win anything. Like you mentioned if not for Aguero then he wouldn't have won title for another 3 years. Ofcourse to win anything a goal should be scored, so one or the other player will make that difference but that player alone is not enough. I mean its not really difficult concept. They needed few players to combine to score equalizing goal just few seconds before Aguero goal.

Again on Odegaard, he didn't win major trophies. I'm sticking to the simplest logic used by you. At this point he isn't good enough player to win major trophies. Who knows what happens in future, same with Saka, Rice, Saliba, Son, Kane and other good players who haven't won League title or CL.

Don't try too hard and not everything is about crediting and discrediting players, go out and have some fresh air.

It is possible to make general posts without discrediting other players, maybe its strange and alien concept for you but it is possible.

You're very confusing and seem to be changing your mind constantly, and using my logic to argue back at me despite you not being in agreement with that logic.

It's a lot of back and forth here, so I've got a simple question for you. Why do you think Bruno, as a midfielder, has never performed well in a big game?

 

[roonster09]

You're very confusing and seem to be changing your mind constantly, and using my logic to argue back at me despite you not being in agreement with that logic.

It's a lot of back and forth here, so I've got a simple question for you. Why do you think Bruno, as a midfielder, has never performed well in a big game?

No, I'm saying your logic is flawed and gave a simple example of player you always use to play down other players.

Your statement itself is wrong, that Bruno never performed well in big game. Played consistently well in big games? No. Didn't have a single good performance in big game like you mentioned? Not even close.

 

[El Jefe]

People arguing about trophies as if trophies are won by individual players

They aren’t but he’s been in positions to make the difference to his trophy count and has come up short.

It’s not like we’re plucky underdogs that have come no way near. We’ve been in Europa Finals and FA Cup finals as well as semifinals in both competitions where we were favourites to go through.

It’s not blaming it all on Bruno but if he’s this world class player that they say he is he should have enough quality to drag us through in games against Sevilla and Villarreal. At least do it once.

The best players are difference makers most of the time and Bruno had yet to be that in the biggest and most impactful moments.

 

[zaafi]

No, I'm saying your logic is flawed and gave a simple example of player you always use to play down other players.

Your statement itself is wrong, that Bruno never performed well in big game. Played consistently well in big games? No. Didn't have a single good performance in big game like you mentioned? Not even close.

Tell me one big game he has played well in. And don't say Tottenham.

 

[JPRouve]

Exactly, that front 4 would shit on our attack and we don't have a CM who can keep the ball like Banega.

Like you said, it's a team sport. It's unfortunate and also weird that people think single player wins trophies or single player controls the game.

Ideally we should be in a position like City where you can replace any player, you still don't see drop in level. We are so far from that.

But it's fair to recognize when a player is an issue during crucial phases of the game. And in the case of Bruno it's an issue that exists since 2020, at the time people thought fatigue was the main culprit for his inconsistencies and ability to disappear for large periods but in 2023, what is the argument? For large periods of time United play with one less player in midfield because Bruno is not being useful.

Now it's true that he isn't the only issue, Casemiro positioning is often terrible, he positions himself too high, too wide or both. Eriksen is very useful in the early stage of our attacking transition but he often disappears when the ball is in the final third and he is generally a lightweight defensively even though his positioning is good.

Personally I can't forget Bruno's game against Barcelona, by being pushed aside his flaws kind of disappeared and he was in a position where his creativity and aggression were emphasized. For months I have thought about a small tweak with the following formation:

-------------------Hojlund
Rashford-----Antony--Bruno
----------Casemiro--Eriksen
Shaw-Martinez---Varane----Dalot
------------------Onana


The logic is basically an assymetrical diamond that put Rashford, Bruno and Antony in roles and areas that actually suit them. And making the center of the field a nightmare for the opposition

-Antony(Mount) main strength are his ability to keep the ball under pressure and link up, his pressing and willingness to tackle which to me that makes him ideal for a central role and as a potential leader for our pressing.
- Bruno main strength is his delivery, he is a menace from all depth and playing slightly wide on the right side should allow him to target the box faster and easier than if he has to get the ball back to goal turn and create, he is a bit too slow when it comes to that movement and our transition often dies at that point.
-Eriksen(Amrabat) is ideal when he starts our transition and focus on cutting passing lanes, he needs to be a bit sheltered from physical battles but that's where Casemiro comes in, ETH should stop that box to box nonsense, we need a sweeper in midfield and he is very good at it, allowing him or asking him to be more than that hurts our midfield, it hurts the shape of our midfield and we end up being late on nearly every transitions. The dynamic between the CMs should be that Casemiro drops when the ball is in the final third and Eriksen drops when the ball is in our third, they basically cover each others weaknesses.

 

[roonster09]

They aren’t but he’s been in positions to make the difference to his trophy count and has come up short.

It’s not like we’re plucky underdogs that have come no way near. We’ve been in Europa Finals and FA Cup finals as well as semifinals in both competitions where we were favourites to go through.

It’s not blaming it all on Bruno but if he’s this world class player that they say he is he should have enough quality to drag us through in games against Sevilla and Villarreal.

The best players are difference makers most of the time and Bruno had yet to be that in the biggest and most impactful moments.

You can use the same example and say why haaland didn't score or assist a single goal in the finals he played for City and even in semi finals (IIRC), likewise KdB too in finals. They still won, it's not City's best player who made the difference but it was someone else who stepped up.

Finals are decided on smallest of margins, we lost finals in a penalty shoot out and one against City who were comfortable favs to win the finals, and we lost due to GK blunder.

Kane is one of the best players in the league, did he score a goal in finals yet? He might have but I don't remember any.

I agree with the general premise that best players make the impact but it's not always the case. You are condensing entire career into couple of games where the margins are very less.

 

[zaafi]

You can use the same example and say why haaland didn't score or assist a single goal in the finals he played for City and even in semi finals (IIRC), likewise KdB too in finals. They still won, it's not City's best player who made the difference but it was someone else who stepped up.

Finals are decided on smallest of margins, we lost finals in a penalty shoot out and one against City who were comfortable favs to win the finals, and we lost due to GK blunder.

Kane is one of the best players in the league, did he score a goal in finals yet? He might have but I don't remember any.

I agree with the general premise that best players make the impact but it's not always the case. You are condensing entire career into couple of games where the margins are very less.

Haaland or De Bruyne didn't play against Sevilla or Villarreal. They played against some of the best teams in the world. If Bruno had played against Bayern, he'd probably not be seen on the field. And I think this is the second CL final that De Bruyne got injured early on, so can't really fault him for not contributing.

 

[roonster09]

But it's fair to recognize when a player is an issue during crucial phases of the game. And in the case of Bruno it's an issue that exists since 2020, at the time people thought fatigue was the main culprit for his inconsistencies and ability to disappear for large periods but in 2023, what is the argument? For large periods of time United play with one less player in midfield because Bruno is not being useful.

Now it's true that he isn't the only issue, Casemiro positioning is often terrible, he positions himself too high, too wide or both. Eriksen is very useful in the early stage of our attacking transition but he often disappears when the ball is in the final third and he is generally a lightweight defensively even though his positioning is good.

Personally I can't forget Bruno's game against Barcelona, by being pushed aside his flaws kind of disappeared and he was in a position where his creativity and aggression were emphasized. For months I have thought about a small tweak with the following formation:

-------------------Hojlund
Rashford-----Antony--Bruno
----------Casemiro--Eriksen
Shaw-Martinez---Varane----Dalot
------------------Onana


The logic is basically an assymetrical diamond that put Rashford, Bruno and Antony in roles and areas that actually suit them. And making the center of the field a nightmare for the opposition

-Antony(Mount) main strength are his ability to keep the ball under pressure and link up, his pressing and willingness to tackle which to me that makes him ideal for a central role and as a potential leader for our pressing.
- Bruno main strength is his delivery, he is a menace from all depth and playing slightly wide on the right side should allow him to target the box faster and easier than if he has to get the ball back to goal turn and create, he is a bit too slow when it comes to that movement and our transition often dies at that point.
-Eriksen(Amrabat) is ideal when he starts our transition and focus on cutting passing lanes, he needs to be a bit sheltered from physical battles but that's where Casemiro comes in, ETH should stop that box to box nonsense, we need a sweeper in midfield and he is very good at it, allowing him or asking him to be more than that hurts our midfield, it hurts the shape of our midfield and we end up being late on nearly every transitions. The dynamic between the CMs should be that Casemiro drops when the ball is in the final third and Eriksen drops when the ball is in our third, they basically cover each others weaknesses.

I agree with the general point you are making, we have issues in the build up phase and it's not just down to individuals. As a collective we are not getting better than sum of its parts.

I don't think Bruno as RW works, he had few good games playing slightly wide but overall I didn't like the way he played. Problem with not playing Bruno centrally was we didn't have anyone who could progress the ball from deeper areas or in threatening position to execute the pass.

I thought Shaw would be the one to influence the game much more moving centrally, that didn't happen. Looks like we are leaving a huge gap in midfield with too much work for Casemiro to do.

I think better fit would be to play Casemiro - Amrabat as midfield pivot, Bruno as AM with Pellistri as RW. I liked the way he played when he was given chances, he is quick, pushes teams back and also has good ability to carry the ball.

With Hojlund playing, finally we have a CF who works hard and can create space using his pace and strength. For me it's all too early to make lot of changes, as it is from the little I watched vs Arsenal, I didn't think we played badly.

 

[El Jefe]

You can use the same example and say why haaland didn't score or assist a single goal in the finals he played for City and even in semi finals (IIRC), likewise KdB too in finals. They still won, it's not City's best player who made the difference but it was someone else who stepped up.

Finals are decided on smallest of margins, we lost finals in a penalty shoot out and one against City who were comfortable favs to win the finals, and we lost due to GK blunder.

Kane is one of the best players in the league, did he score a goal in finals yet? He might have but I don't remember any.

I agree with the general premise that best players make the impact but it's not always the case. You are condensing entire career into couple of games where the margins are very less.

That would be a poor argument for KDB and Haaland because they have examples of being difference makers in other huge games. Bruno doesn’t have any except maybe the game against Leicester on the last day of the season to get us top 4.

Kane rightfully has that hanging over him till this very day. The difference between the two is Kane actually does show up against the biggest teams he just has poor performances in those key finals and semifinals. Bruno on the other hand underperforms in both big games and high stakes matches.

Bruno is a very good player but if he’s held according to the world class tag some give him he has to be held to these standards. Especially at this club where we’ve had so many great and actual world class players before him.

 

[roonster09]

Tell me one big game he has played well in. And don't say Tottenham.

Arsenal last season.

I remember you mentioning latter stages of CL and Europa as big games IIRC, his game vs Roma.

Haaland or De Bruyne didn't play against Sevilla or Villarreal. They played against some of the best teams in the world. If Bruno had played against Bayern, he'd probably not be seen on the field. And I think this is the second CL final that De Bruyne got injured early on, so can't really fault him for not contributing.

They played against Sevilla, Inter and ManUtd.

 

[roonster09]

That would be a poor argument for KDB and Haaland because they have examples of being difference makers in other huge games. Bruno doesn’t have any except maybe the game against Leicester on the last day of the season to get us top 4.

Kane rightfully has that hanging over him till this very day. The difference between the two is Kane actually does show up against the biggest teams he just has poor performances in those key finals and semifinals. Bruno on the other hand underperforms in both big games and high stakes matches.

Bruno is a very good player but if he’s held according to the world class tag some give him he has to be held to these standards. Especially at this club where we’ve had so many great and actual world class players before him.

You said Bruno was in position to make difference to his trophy count, which means you were talking about finals. That's why I mentioned their final record.

Not sure about world class tag, for me that's a useless term. Not really worried or care who is called world class or continental class.

 

[Scandi Red]

My memory is a bit hazy when it comes to remembering specific games for specific players spread over many years. But Bruno has played close to 40 big games for us since he arrived (depending on where you draw the line). There is no way that he has been poor in all of them.

But this is a pointless path anyways, because you guys are comparing apples and oranges when you bring up the likes of Scholes and Giggs. These two played under Fergie's dynasty. How many times did we get outplayed between 1996 and 2013? And when we did get outplayed, how many of our legends had a tendency to play well despite this? That was hardly the norm. Whether your last name was Scholes or Chadwick, you'd generally have a poor game if the team got outplayed. That is how team sports tend to work.

Since Fergie retired we have generally been outplayed in the big games. Occasionally it's even and chaotic (from both teams). Us outplaying a big team? A rare occurence.

 

[JPRouve]

I agree with the general point you are making, we have issues in the build up phase and it's not just down to individuals. As a collective we are not getting better than sum of its parts.

I don't think Bruno as RW works, he had few good games playing slightly wide but overall I didn't like the way he played. Problem with not playing Bruno centrally was we didn't have anyone who could progress the ball from deeper areas or in threatening position to execute the pass.

I thought Shaw would be the one to influence the game much more moving centrally, that didn't happen. Looks like we are leaving a huge gap in midfield with too much work for Casemiro to do.

I think better fit would be to play Casemiro - Amrabat as midfield pivot, Bruno as AM with Pellistri as RW. I liked the way he played when he was given chances, he is quick, pushes teams back and also has good ability to carry the ball.

With Hojlund playing, finally we have a CF who works hard and can create space using his pace and strength. For me it's all too early to make lot of changes, as it is from the little I watched vs Arsenal, I didn't think we played badly.

But Bruno doesn't progress the ball centrally with any sort of consistency. I could understand your point if he was reliable in that department but he isn't. He is reliable when it comes to the killer ball in the final third. Also I wouldn't use him as a winger but as attacking midfielder similarly to AMs in a 4321. In our case it would be a sort of 4222 with the AMs slighly moved to the right in order to slot in Rashford.

 

[zaafi]

Arsenal last season.

I remember you mentioning latter stages of CL and Europa as big games IIRC, his game vs Roma.

Other than his brilliant through ball assist to Rashford and the nice pass to Eriksen, he didn't really have a good game at all, which brings me back to the point that he is a player of moments. I'll give you Roma, though, even if it's two and a half years ago. Being a midfielder for United, this is very low standard for what requirements should be.

They played against Sevilla, Inter and ManUtd.

Yeah, after thrashing Real Madrid and beating Bayern München on the way. Haaland was the CL's top scorer with 12 as well, so he delivered throughout the cup.

 

[roonster09]

But Bruno doesn't progress the ball centrally with any sort of consistency. I could understand your point if he was reliable in that department but he isn't. He is reliable when it comes to the killer ball in the final third. Also I wouldn't use him as a winger but as attacking midfielder similarly to AMs in a 4321. In our case it would be a sort of 4222 with the AMs slighly moved to the right in order to slot in Rashford.

He is at 97 percentile for progressive passes, even leaving stats aside, he is the one who usually releases Rashford and other wingers by playing quick passes from central position.

Unless we have a player who can progress the ball from deeper areas, Bruno is our best bet in central position. Now that we have signed Amrabat, things might change a bit.

 

[roonster09]

Other than his brilliant through ball assist to Rashford and the nice pass to Eriksen, he didn't really have a good game at all, which brings me back to the point that he is a player of moments. I'll give you Roma, though, even if it's two and a half years ago. Being a midfielder for United, this is very low standard for what requirements should be.



Yeah, after thrashing Real Madrid and beating Bayern München on the way. Haaland was the CL's top scorer with 12 as well, so he delivered throughout the cup.

You don't remember the game well then, go to post match discussion in his thread. It was full of praise, which brings back to other point. People remember him for his goals and assists and forget all the good things he does, while highlighting the bad stuff all the time.

One more goal post movement, you talked about finals and playing not so strong opponents.