[Scandi Red]

Come on mate, you know that nobody seriously thinks that.

Look at some of the posts in here! You'd think that Bruno's stats would be terrible in comparison to De Bruyne based on how people describe him! But in reality their main difference is how many of their key passes end up in the back of the net and De Bruyne's better shot accuracy.

 

[Xaviboy]

So him and Mount not working in the midfield with system ETH wants.

Why can't we work on Bruno playing in deeper role. His range of passing is very good. Games last season he was very good playing from deep.l, game Vs Everton stands out. Let mount play more advanced role with the forward line.

Bruno great engine as well to cover ground.

 

[Rozay]

No, it shows how to utilize the so called "nr 10" position players is modern tactical setups to hide their individual weaknesses and how to make sure their somewhat disengaged playstyle won't harm the team in defensive setup - while bringing the best out of them in attacking setup.

It shows some numbers associated to two footballers that are not on the same level is what it does.

 

[JuriM]

It shows some numbers associated to two footballers that are not on the same level is what it does.

Nah, Pep has played with two number 10s for many different outlets while being at City. It all can be done, but you need right personnel for it and rightly accustomed tactics - he got his beatings in the first years as well and learned from it.

 

[NZT-One]

No, it shows how to utilize the so called "nr 10" position players is modern tactical setups to hide their individual weaknesses and how to make sure their somewhat disengaged playstyle won't harm the team in defensive setup - while bringing the best out of them in attacking setup.

Well said, I agree. I'd add something though - knowing that we seemingly aren't a team that is able to do what you describe, Bruno then becomes some sort topic. Always many buttons to balance out a machine.

Look at some of the posts in here! You'd think that Bruno's stats would be terrible in comparison to De Bruyne based on how people describe him! But in reality their main difference is how many of their key passes end up in the back of the net and De Bruyne's better shot accuracy.

Its an anonym internet forum. Worst thing, you can do to yourself is picking some extreme positions and start to believe, that everybody who is critical, thinks the same. There is a lot of bullshit posted in here. Critique and Praise. We can take the sting out a bit, if we don't react to every BS that is presented.

 

[Jeppers7]

Look at some of the posts in here! You'd think that Bruno's stats would be terrible in comparison to De Bruyne based on how people describe him! But in reality their main difference is how many of their key passes end up in the back of the net and De Bruyne's better shot accuracy.

That is not the main difference. Despite stats saying the two are similar in quality the reality is that they aren’t…which will go a long way to explaining why more of KDB chances end up in the net.

 

[Member 109952]

I can tell that the guy is making me furious sat on my comfortable couch. I am sure he is just as frustrating when close to you...


Control possession and win the ball back because this will need to be done when Bruno continues playing a quantity game.


He might be the very best player on the team but what is that giving us when the team itself isn't really producing and out of reach of its actual rivals? That is one of the main points of the whole debate - Bruno might be the best United player of the last 10 years - but WHO CARES. We need players who are better than our rivals and/or enabling us as a team to get better results than them. The team doesn't seem to evolve and a reason of that MIGHT be Bruno. Because he seems the only creative outlet we have. The rest of the attackers seemingly is always trying to get on the end of stuff. Imagine Bruno gets injured for while, wouldn't we want the team to be able to play without him?

I've seen Cities match against Newcastle, it wasn't really noticable that De Bruyne wasn't there. Obviously, no team will remain as good without one of their best players. But Brunos role to United seems way way way tooo instrumental.


True.

Bruno is instrumental to us because the rest of the team is shit. Up front who creates anything? Garnacho, Antony, Mount? Rashfords the only one that did anything last season and that was out wide.

The city point doesn't hold because they lost KDB, but replaced him with Foden who's probably one of the best young attacking midfielders in the world. They're usually known for their strong attacking depth - indeed their ability to rotate between 7 attacking options is why they dominate so many competitions. Obviously it's a little less now with Gundogan and Mahrez gone, but they're looking to sign Paquetta and Doku to bolster their options. Who do we have? Our starters aren't good let alone the depth options.

 

[Rozay]

Nah, Pep has played with two number 10s for many different outlets while being at City. It all can be done, but you need right personnel for it and rightly accustomed tactics - he got his beatings in the first years as well and learned from it.

Of course it can be done, De Bruyne is showing that it can be done. He doesn’t play simple passes out of touch with anything near the same frequency and doesn’t limit the ability to build team play through the same volume of poor choices and can keep an attack developing due to being far stronger so can resist/turn away from pressure. He can run past players too, so opens ip several attacks himself. This is why these numbers are a nonsense. As @Scandi Red put it - ‘the numbers show that the only difference between the two players is that De Bruyne is a better finisher and more key passes are converted’. There’s a lot more between them than that. Kevin carry the ball, can leave an opponent behind, can turn away from players and is far stronger physically, which enables him the additional second or two that then allows him to make the right choice. And then quite frankly, he’s even just better at making dangerous passes too.

 

[RedDevil@84]

Surprised he hasn't been charged yet.

 

[Rozay]

Bruno is instrumental to us because the rest of the team is shit. Up front who creates anything? Garnacho, Antony, Mount? Rashfords the only one that did anything last season and that was out wide.

The city point doesn't hold because they lost KDB, but replaced him with Foden who's probably one of the best young attacking midfielders in the world. They're usually known for their strong attacking depth - indeed their ability to rotate between 7 attacking options is why they dominate so many competitions. Obviously it's a little less now with Gundogan and Mahrez gone, but they're looking to sign Paquetta and Doku to bolster their options. Who do we have? Our starters aren't good let alone the depth options.

Bruno is a part of why the ‘team’ is shit.

 

[RedDevil@84]

Bruno is a part of why the ‘team’ is shit.

So dropping him should make us better. But dropping him has only reduced our attacking threat as shown in the past.

 

[The_Midfielder]

Bruno is a part of why the ‘team’ is shit.

He is our best player..
Everybody else is shit

 

[Rozay]

So dropping him should make us better. But dropping him has only reduced our attacking threat as shown in the past.

Dropping him is a step towards making us better, it will not make us better. To make us better, managers need to stop looking to take shortcuts to do so. A team needs to be constructed from scratch and constructed based on the right principles. That should be done without Bruno Fernandes, as he is in direct conflict to such principles. It’s really that simple. His fan club have said for years that we don’t suddenly become much better when he misses 30 mins of football. Nobody is saying that’s how it works.

I’ve said many times, these strengths people mention that will get the best of his qualities. The ‘if we had a fast striker and a strong DM behind’ or whatever - will not result in us winning major trophies. We will probably be a top 4 team, but I believe that a team set up to get the best out of Bruno Fernandes, even if it succeeds in doing so and Bruno is the best player in that team, will ultimately not be a good enough football team to finish a season against a house built on different principles. Bruno is not good enough even as an individual player to warrant a top team relying on his moments. There’s debate if he’s a world class player. If a team wants to adapt itself to Mbappé or Messi/Neymar/Ronaldo in their prime - that’s a different story - but for me, even Bruno’s ‘individual brilliance’ is not brilliant enough to warrant a team trying to win the Bruno way.

 

[NZT-One]

Bruno is instrumental to us because the rest of the team is shit. Up front who creates anything? Garnacho, Antony, Mount? Rashfords the only one that did anything last season and that was out wide.

The city point doesn't hold because they lost KDB, but replaced him with Foden who's probably one of the best young attacking midfielders in the world. They're usually known for their strong attacking depth - indeed their ability to rotate between 7 attacking options is why they dominate so many competitions. Obviously it's a little less now with Gundogan and Mahrez gone, but they're looking to sign Paquetta and Doku to bolster their options. Who do we have? Our starters aren't good let alone the depth options.

The team is shit because there seems to be no plan in the world that seems to make them a very productive team. Bruno is part of that issue. Lets face it - his best qualities are his vision and quick execution, he relies on his instincts. but his instincts are kicking over when he gets under pressure which is happening too often. And when he is under pressure, he rushes things, which then will lead to frantic football which again will lead to even more players looking like shit. Watch Dortmund, watch Brighton. Their players look good because they are playing in a system that works for them and makes them look better. Bruno could be the greatest player in the world and it would still not be worth it, to have him play his way to good numbers if it makes the whole rest of the team look shit.

So dropping him should make us better. But dropping him has only reduced our attacking threat as shown in the past.

FFS nobody wants him dropped and play with 10 men!! People want him to adjust his game. Or him potentially swapped with a play with maybe a little less output while better suited for a more controlled approach.

 

[Teja]

Bruno is a part of why the ‘team’ is shit.

Have you seen us play with guys like Eriksen / VdB at #10 instead of Bruno? We become absolute dogshit.

 

[Rozay]

Have you seen us play with guys like Eriksen / VdB at #10 instead of Bruno? We become absolute dogshit.

And with Bruno, even Bruno at his best, we are not good enough either.

 

[RedDevil@84]

Dropping him is a step towards making us better, it will not make us better. To make us better, managers need to stop looking to take shortcuts to do so. A team needs to be constructed from scratch and constructed based on the right principles. That should be done without Bruno Fernandes, as he is in direct conflict to such principles. It’s really that simple. His fan club have said for years that we don’t suddenly become much better when he misses 30 mins of football. Nobody is saying that’s how it works.

I’ve said many times, these strengths people mention that will get the best of his qualities. The ‘if we had a fast striker and a strong DM behind’ or whatever - will not result in us winning major trophies. We will probably be a top 4 team, but I believe that a team set up to get the best out of Bruno Fernandes, even if it succeeds in doing so and Bruno is the best player in that team, will ultimately not be a good enough football team to finish a season against a house built on different principles. Bruno is not good enough even as an individual player to warrant a top team relying on his moments. There’s debate if he’s a world class player. If a team wants to adapt itself to Mbappé or Messi/Neymar/Ronaldo in their prime - that’s a different story - but for me, even Bruno’s ‘individual brilliance’ is not brilliant enough to warrant a team trying to win the Bruno way.

So, say Bruno is sold tomorrow, how long of a project will it be to create a team based on the "right" principles. And what are these principles? ETH's principles? The club's principles? Are the rest of the current squad already aligned to these "right" principles. Or do we need 2-3 or 5-6 or 10 new players?

 

[RedDevil@84]

FFS nobody wants him dropped and play with 10 men!! People want him to adjust his game. Or him potentially swapped with a play with maybe a little less output while better suited for a more controlled approach.

I am obviously not asking us to play with 10 men. But if say Bruno is dropped from the team, who should replace him? Are the rest of the players aligned to the controlled approach?

 

[NZT-One]

Have you seen us play with guys like Eriksen / VdB at #10 instead of Bruno? We become absolute dogshit.

Mate, the selection of players doesn't really make for a good argument does it? Who knows how we'd look with Maddison? Plus with Eriksen, I don't think, we have seen how this would look like. He came in and took over the spot next to Casemiro, never the one of Bruno. For sure not for a longer string of matches.

 

[NZT-One]

I am obviously not asking us to play with 10 men. But if say Bruno is dropped from the team, who should replace him? Are the rest of the players aligned to the controlled approach?

We don't know. Thats why I would like the manager to make Bruno learn stuff to become less of an issue. Wether the rest of the team is aligned to the controlled approach, we don't know. Pretty sure the technical abilities should be there. The one and only challenge would be to balance out the control with the risk involved in chance creation. I am happy to do this WITH Bruno. But there is a chance, that it isn't possible with him. And just fyi - a 10 as clear as Bruno is one, isn't something that is the norm these days. And those other teams find ways to do it too.

The thing is - you can ask all day how long it will take to adjust to something different. But at some point you have to start! As you say - we rely on Bruno. That in itself is status quo that isn't feasible for a club who aspires to be a topclub again.

 

[Rozay]

So, say Bruno is sold tomorrow, how long of a project will it be to create a team based on the "right" principles. And what are these principles? ETH's principles? The club's principles? Are the rest of the current squad already aligned to these "right" principles. Or do we need 2-3 or 5-6 or 10 new players?

I imagine it will take the time it has taken other clubs to do so. We can’t cheat the process, we are better off starting in tomorrow than in 6 years. I don’t know exactly how many players it will take. The answer will be greater than 1 though.

An alternative question, how long do you think it will take us to win the league/CL if Bruno is NOT sold and remains at the centre of our team? How many players do you think we will need to sign? 2-3 or 5-6?

 

[RedDevil@84]

I imagine it will take the time it has taken other clubs to do so. We can’t cheat the process, we are better off starting in tomorrow than in 6 years. I don’t know exactly how many players it will take. The answer will be greater than 1 though.

An alternative question, how long do you think it will take us to win the league/CL if Bruno is NOT sold and remains at the centre of our team? How many players do you think we will need to sign? 2-3 or 5-6?

I am not sure why you are answering a question with another, but I don't believe removal of Bruno is the key to winning PL or CL.

 

[NZT-One]

I am not sure why you are answering a question with another, but I don't believe removal of Bruno is the key to winning PL or CL.

Now that this is established, is it ok, when people have a different view or answer on that question? ^^

 

[Rozay]

I am not sure why you are answering a question with another, but I don't believe removal of Bruno is the key to winning PL or CL.

If you read again, you will see that I answered you, and then asked you a question of my own.

And I’m not sure that you have answered mine. I didn’t say the removal the ‘removal of Bruno was the key to winning the PL and the CL’ either. The difference is subtle, but what I said is that building a team on different principles to what we employ is what will give us a better chance of winning. It’s the missing of this point that leads to comments like ‘well we’ve played without Bruno and not looked better’. The removal of Bruno from Bruno’s team isn’t going to make the team better, obviously. The point is that Bruno’s team can’t win. Whether it’s a good version or bad version of it. There’s no quick fix, it will take time and there’s no way around that.

A team that respects the ball and control can’t do so to its maximum with Bruno at the centre of its play. And a team that values the strengths of Bruno cannot control matches well enough. And round and round we go.

 

[RedDevil@84]

Now that this is established, is it ok, when people have a different view or answer on that question? ^^

Obviously. This is a discussion forum. So if everyone had the same point of view, we could as well shut down the forum.

 

[NZT-One]

Obviously. This is a discussion forum. So if everyone had the same point of view, we could as well shut down the forum.

I agree. Good attitude. Lets hope it infects many on here who are talking about being "ungrateful fans" or "not enough respect for the player" or "must be crazy a player so instrumental to us" the next time he will get critiziced. And this is not directed to you personally, not going to check post-history ^^

 

[JPRouve]

So dropping him should make us better. But dropping him has only reduced our attacking threat as shown in the past.

No, because the squad isn't built to play without him. At this point in time the alternative wouldn't allow us to be better. Bruno would have to be replaced but that replacement doesn't have to be individually as good, he just needs to be a better tactical fit.

 

[RedDevil@84]

I didn’t say the removal the ‘removal of Bruno was the key to winning the PL and the CL’ either. The difference is subtle, but what I said is that building a team on different principles to what we employ is what will give us a better chance of winning

Which were my questions earlier. What are these principles? Is it the club's or ETH's or both? How long and how many players are needed?

Correct me if I am wrong, but you are saying that current team tries to play to Bruno's strengths. Which makes us a poor team (incapable of winning PL.CL). Additionally, it results in us struggling when Bruno is not present in the team. But a better team can be created (that can win PL/CL) if we stop doing that, sign a team that plays a different strategy which you termed as controlled football. And you are not sure if it is gonna take 6 years and 10 players.

The questions are important because it raises other questions. If it is just dropping Bruno and tweaking the rest of the team, then we are fine. But I am not convinced.

But if we are talking about a completely revamped team which will take years to build, then is it practically possible for the club in terms of vision and finances? Why were ETH signings and extensions allowed, if they aren't good enough for these principles?

 

[-Supreme-]

No, because the squad isn't built to play without him. At this point in time the alternative wouldn't allow us to be better. Bruno would have to be replaced but that replacement doesn't have to be individually as good, he just needs to be a better tactical fit.

I always wondered if Mason Mount bought in to potentially challenge Bruno as opposed to playing the two together especially when ETH is still looking for a first phase midfielder.

 

[Gabriel Djemba-Bebe]

Not a single top club were in for him when he was playing for Sporting banging in goals and assisting.

 

[zaafi]

I find that hard to believe as he is the exact type of player Barca normally avoid. Where would he fit in?

 

[Gabriel Djemba-Bebe]

I find that hard to believe as he is the exact type of player Barca normally avoid. Where would he fit in?

You'd have to ask the higher ups at Barca where he would've fitted in back in 2020. BBC and Sky Sports are two reputable sources who confirmed they had put in a bid for him though.

 

[Scandi Red]

I find that hard to believe as he is the exact type of player Barca normally avoid.

Perhaps he's not as bad as some people in here think? Maybe he's even good? Just throwing it out there.

 

[Valencia Shin Crosses]

So, say Bruno is sold tomorrow, how long of a project will it be to create a team based on the "right" principles. And what are these principles? ETH's principles? The club's principles? Are the rest of the current squad already aligned to these "right" principles. Or do we need 2-3 or 5-6 or 10 new players?

The issue with the current squad is that many of the "new" players we've bought are based on one set of principles, but two of our "best" players are suited towards a completely different set/style. Rashford and Bruno are excellent players in a team set up to counter and drop deep out of possession, but each has serious deficiencies in a team that looks to play high press/progressive style of play based more on the Pep style of using the full space of the pitch to create openings in a defense. Rashford is absolutely awful as a pressing trigger and quite lazy out of possession, so you might always struggle to be dominant as a team press with him in the side. Bruno on the other hand brings outstanding work rate, but he's quite terrible on the ball in tight spaces nor can he powerfully carry it through the midfield himself. Add in the fact that he tends to become quite reckless both in and out of possession (especially in games in which we are trailing) and he becomes a difficult profile to fit into a team looking to contend for the biggest trophies. He's of course a world class creative outlet but his deficiencies mean you are forced to constantly compromise and "live with" a game in which he might be horrific for 80 minutes but create the two best chances of the game and possibly win you the match. That's a tough formula to be consistent with in terms of team performances regardless of if the results are positive.

ETH's problem at the moment is that the signings of Mount and Antony don't compliment his two best players at all, as one is another attacking mid that tends to take the spaces Bruno likes to operate in instead of a "connector" that can find Bruno between the lines a la Eriksen (but with working legs), and the other is a winger that's an awful creator/finisher that also doesn't offer a running threat in behind for Bruno to target. So either ETH will adjust and we'll see a different lineup/tactics, or we'll continue to be a sort of chaotic/toothless side.

 

[Scandi Red]

As @Scandi Red put it - ‘the numbers show that the only difference between the two players is that De Bruyne is a better finisher and more key passes are converted’.

You keep misquoting me.

Look, I will be the first to tell you that stats don't tell the whole story. A goal isn't always a goal. There is a difference between a tap in and a bicycle kick. There is a difference between getting dispossessed by a Maldini clone in his peak and tripping on your feet. Obviously.

But the ONE thing stats are good for is recording frequency. And this is particularly useful when it comes to Bruno, because most of the complaints in here are strongly linked to frequency of errors.

"Bruno misplaces too many passes"
Where do you draw the line? De Bruyne is the best attacking midfielder in the world and his accuracy is only 3 percentage points higher! That's barely more than 1 pass per game!

"Bruno gets dispossessed too often"
He gets dispossessed about as often as De Bruyne (and Ødegaard for that matter). Which is roughly once per game.

"Bruno goes for the Hollywood ball too often"
What is an Hollywood ball exactly? In any case, Bruno only plays 0.6 more long balls per game than De Bruyne (who makes twice as many crosses by the way). And does it even matter when his error frequency is similar to the best AM in the world? Come to think of it, if he played 2 or 3 fewer Hollywood balls per game then he'd have excellent pass accuracy. But he'd also create fewer chances and assist. At least in our team. He doesn't have the luxury of being part of an elite attack.

 

[Licha-Vidic]

Dropping him is a step towards making us better, it will not make us better. To make us better, managers need to stop looking to take shortcuts to do so. A team needs to be constructed from scratch and constructed based on the right principles. That should be done without Bruno Fernandes, as he is in direct conflict to such principles. It’s really that simple. His fan club have said for years that we don’t suddenly become much better when he misses 30 mins of football. Nobody is saying that’s how it works.

I’ve said many times, these strengths people mention that will get the best of his qualities. The ‘if we had a fast striker and a strong DM behind’ or whatever - will not result in us winning major trophies. We will probably be a top 4 team, but I believe that a team set up to get the best out of Bruno Fernandes, even if it succeeds in doing so and Bruno is the best player in that team, will ultimately not be a good enough football team to finish a season against a house built on different principles. Bruno is not good enough even as an individual player to warrant a top team relying on his moments. There’s debate if he’s a world class player. If a team wants to adapt itself to Mbappé or Messi/Neymar/Ronaldo in their prime - that’s a different story - but for me, even Bruno’s ‘individual brilliance’ is not brilliant enough to warrant a team trying to win the Bruno way.

I dont know who you are mate, but from today I will be following your post here religiously. I've sang this song here till I sound like a broken record.
Moving on from Bruno will be the first step to us becoming a controlling football team.
Individually Bruno has achieved nothing as a 29 yr old, but we believe he will take us to the promised land. Bruno at best is a Europa League player. That's where he has been involved more as a player.
Man United has been a Europa League Team in the last few years with Bruno being a main stay and focal point.

 

[Jeppers7]

You keep misquoting me.

Look, I will be the first to tell you that stats don't tell the whole story. A goal isn't always a goal. There is a difference between a tap in and a bicycle kick. There is a difference between getting dispossessed by a Maldini clone in his peak and tripping on your feet. Obviously.

But the ONE thing stats are good for is recording frequency. And this is particularly useful when it comes to Bruno, because most of the complaints in here are strongly linked to frequency of errors.

"Bruno misplaces too many passes"
Where do you draw the line? De Bruyne is the best attacking midfielder in the world and his accuracy is only 3 percentage points higher! That's barely more than 1 pass per game!

"Bruno gets dispossessed too often"
He gets dispossessed about as often as De Bruyne (and Ødegaard for that matter). Which is roughly once per game.

"Bruno goes for the Hollywood ball too often"
What is an Hollywood ball exactly? In any case, Bruno only plays 0.6 more long balls per game than De Bruyne (who makes twice as many crosses by the way). And does it even matter when his error frequency is similar to the best AM in the world? Come to think of it, if he played 2 or 3 fewer Hollywood balls per game then he'd have excellent pass accuracy. But he'd also create fewer chances and assist. At least in our team. He doesn't have the luxury of being part of an elite attack.

Could stats show a player playing the wrong pass?

 

[Scandi Red]

Could stats show a player playing the wrong pass?

No, because then Opta would have have to find a way to determine whether a pass was wrong or not. You typically have many passing options. And the line between genius and squandered possession is often thin. It's a matter of execution rather than wisdom.

That being said, I don't think Bruno often gets accused of making the wrong pass? Not unless you count that infamous Hollywood ball of his. But plenty of the chances and assists he creates come from these Hollywood balls too, so reducing them would probably also lead to a reduction in these positive areas.

Like I wrote above: if Bruno cut back on his risky passes and played 3 safe passes per game instead, then he'd beat De Bruyne's pass accuracy and be on par with Ødegaard. Would people be happy with this though? Pass accuracy is actually the only passing stat that Ødegaard beats Bruno at.

 

[UnofficialDevil]

I find that hard to believe as he is the exact type of player Barca normally avoid. Where would he fit in?

Barcelona apparently only wanted to sign Bruno to give him to Valencia as part of a swap deal for Rodrigo.

https://www.standard.co.uk/sport/fo...ester-united-barcelona-transfer-a4347106.html

 

[Scandi Red]

Barcelona apparently only wanted to sign Bruno to give him to Valencia as part of a swap deal for Rodrigo.

The article you posted literally also says: "Although Barca do not need to sign a new midfielder at the moment, Fernandes is a player they have admired, with a view to possibly signing in future."