[André Dominguez]

Sack ETH, Sell Bruno!

 

[Hulme91]

How do United fans actively look out for crap on twitter posted by rival fans and re-post it? The phone would be out of the window if I looked at twitter after that shambles

 

[flameinthesun]

That's where you are wrong. That's also the point the other thread has been trying to make. He simply needs to play in this chaotic way to get his high stats.

It doesn't mean that he's not intelligent or that he's just a street footballer. He wants to be the main provider and he can produce good numbers. But his game lacks a lot of things: Technique, ball retention and ball carrying skills and the ability to receive the ball on the half-turn. So, he often shifts out of position and roams into the spaces where he believes he can have the space and the time on the ball to pick out a pass while facing the goal. The likes of KdB or Odegaard may have similar passing completion stats, but they don't lack all of these things. This makes them capable to operate within the frame of a structured system. And a well structured system leads to well-drilled moves (and their variants) on the pitch. Which is the basis around which most good football sides have been built in the last 15 years or so.

I believe you can understand the paradox when you're arguing that the man who wants to be at the heart of our midfield needs better possession players around him. Possession football is all about controlling the chaotic nature of football. It's about taming the chaos, not embracing it. I am also not sure but, judging by experience, whenever people say that possession teams lack a cutting edge, they mean Pep's sides who like to pass the ball into oblivion. Well, in the previous 6 years they've been averaging 95 PL goals p/s, mostly by playing without a main striker, too. Structure and purposeful movement on the ball can provide you with a cutting edge. And, as opposed to relying on individualism, it's more dependable and lasting. It's also harder to achieve. In the end, the question isn't really about Bruno's numbers or his commitment to the cause. It's about whether we are going to continue being a side that lives and dies by how he chooses to play the game.

Agree 100%. These are the decisions that Ten Hag needs to get right, most notably:
- Can we achieve his desired end state with this team with a Bruno type player at its core
- whilst at the same time carrying Rashford from a work rate perspective when he's shifted over to the left as its clear despite the great season he is having he is not a Mane, Mahrez etc type winger who is constant energy up and down the wing
- whilst at the same time carrying a goal keeper who isn't optimal for keeping possession

Bruno is one of a number of difficult questions that need to be asked and answered. I think expecting Bruno to change the way he plays is probably not going to happen, so we as a club need to decide whether we build around him, or we replace him. For me, we should get a younger more refined up and coming talent to challenge Bruno in that role and see how he reacts. At the moment, he's pretty much undroppable due to lack of alternatives which currently Weghorst and Sancho are not.

 

[RonaldoVII]

How do United fans actively look out for crap on twitter posted by rival fans and re-post it? The phone would be out of the window if I looked at twitter after that shambles

It's mental looking for it let alone posting it on here

 

[Chaky_Best]

We always try to fin a scapegoat afterall.

Him, De Gea etc.

But he was more useful this season than not.

He was poor yesterday of course and I think he needs to rest as he played way too much this season, but saying that the defeat is for him is wrong.

The defeat is for everyone connected to the team, from Ten Hag, the players, the staff etc

 

[Fr. Todd Unctious]

Hadn’t seen the incident until now (turned it off after Salah scored) but there’s nothing at all in that. I’d have been outraged if he were banned for such triviality.

Some Referees organisation want him banned for 5 games minimum. Will probably happen too we've see already this season with Cas how trigger happy the FA are to dish out suspensions to United.

 

[Leftback99]

Should be dropped for that clip alone.

 

[Marwood]

No, but the style certainly is dictated by your primary options. When your main creator is a free roaming attacking player and your most dangerous attacker thrives only when there's space behind the defence to attack, you can't tell me that Casemiro and Fred (who i don't rate, by the way) are the reason why we can't keep the ball and play possession football. Short-passing sequences in tight areas, the ones that can secure possession and open up pockets of space are born out of positional discipline, not instinct. The rest of the team have been working to accommodate Bruno's strengths and cope with his weaknesses since the day he set foot at OT. During that time, we've had highs and lows as a team with him as the main conductor. Again, the question is not about whether he can offer us end product or not. Obviously, he can. It's about what team we want to become a few years down the line.

Why can't I tell you that? They're our CM and both are inconsistent with ball rention. If you don't believe the eye test the stats back this up. Add to them a few others and Bruno and its no surprise we can't keep the ball.

The urge to blame Bruno for all is strange. This talk of us living or dying being down to him or the entire team adjusting to him is simply incorrect.

We are a counter attacking team and that does suit Bruno but it also suits the rest of our players over the last four years.

 

[the gafferjs]

Total disgrace yesterday, never a captain in a million years yet all the online people and social media influencers and luckhursts will do is blame likes of McTominay etc. Bruno needs dropped for his behaviour and left out until he learns some humility. We all love a Maverick but yesterday was unacceptable, if SAF was in charge he would have been dropped for this behaviour weeks ago. Whilst I agree Ronaldo had to go he was let go for showing traits like this so Bruno needs to be dealt with for sure and he should not be the Captain ever again

 

[tomaldinho1]

That's where you are wrong. That's also the point the other thread has been trying to make. He simply needs to play in this chaotic way to get his high stats.

It doesn't mean that he's not intelligent or that he's just a street footballer. He wants to be the main provider and he can produce good numbers. But his game lacks a lot of things: Technique, ball retention and ball carrying skills and the ability to receive the ball on the half-turn. So, he often shifts out of position and roams into the spaces where he believes he can have the space and the time on the ball to pick out a pass while facing the goal. The likes of KdB or Odegaard may have similar passing completion stats, but they don't lack all of these things. This makes them capable to operate within the frame of a structured system. And a well structured system leads to well-drilled moves (and their variants) on the pitch. Which is the basis around which most good football sides have been built in the last 15 years or so.

I believe you can understand the paradox when you're arguing that the man who wants to be at the heart of our midfield needs better possession players around him. Possession football is all about controlling the chaotic nature of football. It's about taming the chaos, not embracing it. I am also not sure but, judging by experience, whenever people say that possession teams lack a cutting edge, they mean Pep's sides who like to pass the ball into oblivion. Well, in the previous 6 years they've been averaging 95 PL goals p/s, mostly by playing without a main striker, too. Structure and purposeful movement on the ball can provide you with a cutting edge. And, as opposed to relying on individualism, it's more dependable and lasting. It's also harder to achieve. In the end, the question isn't really about Bruno's numbers or his commitment to the cause. It's about whether we are going to continue being a side that lives and dies by how he chooses to play the game.

Sensible post. If you think about the best teams in the world, none of them have a player who is as wild as Bruno. Modern football at the elite level is about having set roles, specific jobs and possession and pressing really are everything, you can't concede when you have the ball and your best chances usually come after a successful press.

I said when ETH came I thought he'd end up having to drop Bruno into a CM role because he's got the engine and ability to play there but then he's probably not as good in that role as Eriksen, I think getting players like Martinez and Case have masked this issue somewhat because both are clear upgrades in possession than the players they replaced but the weakness remains when we encounter the elite teams. I really think someone like Maddison who has 1 year left on his deal would be a shrewd signing to put some pressure on Bruno but, also, be an option for these tougher away games where I'm not sure Bruno has the mentality/discipline.

He's not our biggest issue, CF and GK I think are bigger problems but in these games I am worried about him.

 

[pocco]

I miss Fergie at times like this. Just knowing that he would have torn them (mainly Bruno) a new a*sehole and that it definitely won't happen again.

 

[MattofManchester]

I like Bruno. Poor performance, I can forgive. Giving up when you're the captain of one of the greatest football clubs, I cannot. Ridiculous and petulant.

Awful behaviour from him.

 

[TheRedDevil'sAdvocate]

Why can't I tell you that? They're our CM and both are inconsistent with ball rention. If you don't believe the eye test the stats back this up. Add to them a few others and Bruno and its no surprise we can't keep the ball.

The urge to blame Bruno for all is strange. This talk of us living or dying being down to him or the entire team adjusting to him is simply incorrect.

We are a counter attacking team and that does suit Bruno but it also suits the rest of our players over the last four years.

No one's doing that. I deliberately included Rashford, who's our most consistent goal threat this season, to show that the discussion should be about how the team will move forward as a unit. Among those who believe that, in order to take the crucial final steps towards becoming a top side again, we'll need to learn how to take better care of the ball, some think that Bruno isn't the answer.

Casemiro is more than capable of retaining possession. One of the things that worked miracles for Ancelotti last season (especially in the league) was the positional rotation between Case-Luka-Kroos with the Brazilian often finding himself not in front of the defence, but further up the pitch where he could receive the ball and help in getting it to the forwards. The key difference here is that these three (or whoever played there for RM) worked in tandem with each other. It wasn't the two of them trying to figure out where the third one was going to pop up for the ball and what he would do with it. And, of course, they also have attackers who are better at this type of football. I will repeat it: What Bruno brings to the table is of great value for this side. But so was Coutinho's contribution until Klopp decided that Liverpool would be a better side without him. There's a discussion to be had, that's all. Maybe a more "neutral" thread in the mains would be more appropriate, instead of having this discussion on the Player's thread.

 

[Tom Van Persie]

This is ridiculous

 

[hobbers]

It would be disgusting and so typical of the FA to ban him for that.

But it would be good for the club and good for him to forcibly sit out for a while. Obviously needs dropping for the next couple of games regardless.

 

[RonaldoVII]

Would be ridiculous given the assistant initiated it and did more than Bruno

 

[VP89]

I think he should be stripped of captaincy for a game.

 

[RonaldoVII]

I think he should be stripped of captaincy for a game.

Starting Maguire is the last thing we need

Although he should be fine against Betis/Soton

 

[Pogue Mahone]

It would be disgusting and so typical of the FA to ban him for that.

But it would be good for the club and good for him to forcibly sit out for a while. Obviously needs dropping for the next couple of games regardless.

When you say “good for the club” have you actually watched the games we’ve played without him over the last few years? Shit shows, one and all.

 

[thegregster]

Pathetic by the FA. Deal with it at the time or just forget about it.

That said Bruno needs time out of the team. Might as well try Sancho as a N10. It looks to be his only hope of making a real impact here

 

[RonaldoVII]

 

[Lyng]

When you say “good for the club” have you actually watched the games we’ve played without him over the last few years? Shit shows, one and all.

By that logic you could say that our worst defeats have been with him in it.
Which would be a equally silly statement. We have played so few matches without him that we really dont know how we would fare with him on the bench for a few games.

 

[Fr. Todd Unctious]

This is ridiculous

Not in the least bit surprising. We saw with Cas how the FA love throwing the book at United.

Everton and Liverpool had a similar incident to the Cas one and feck all happend

 

[romufc]

Bruno also looks gassed out, he has played every minute of our games without a rest.

I remember us criticising Ole for doing so.. Ten Hag deserves some criticism on this too.

 

[VP89]

Starting Maguire is the last thing we need

Although he should be fine against Betis/Soton

Was thinking more along the lines of giving it to Rashford but yeha

 

[Pogue Mahone]

By that logic you could say that our worst defeats have been with him in it.
Which would be a equally silly statement. We have played so few matches without him that we really dont know how we would fare with him on the bench for a few games.

That’s not the same logic. The same logic would be us being terrible in every game he plays. Whereas we’ve actually been terrible in every game he doesn’t play. It is a small sample size but it goes back several years and is 100% consistent. Often including a dramatic improvement when he comes on off the bench.

 

[spiriticon]

For some reason he has good vision but simply has no idea how to control the pace of a game.

He's high risk, all the freaking time. It's a good thing he doesn't play professional poker or he'd be wiped clean from his fortune

 

[Lyng]

That’s not the same logic. The same logic would be us being terrible in every game he plays. Whereas we’ve actually been terrible in every game he doesn’t play. It is a small sample size but it goes back several years and is 100% consistent. Often including a dramatic improvement when he comes on off the bench.

Its such a small sample size and especially this season that it is basically useless. Surely its better he gets rested against smaller teams so we avoid running him into the ground like we have this season.
I will say the injury to Eriksen couldnt have come at a worse time. If we had both Sabitzer and Eriksen we could have rested Bruno against some of the smaller teams and we would not have witnessed this.

 

[El Jefe]

Bruno is getting cooked everywhere and by everyone. I've been pretty vocal about not liking him but even I didn't anticipate him being the villain of yesterday's result.

His character and reputation as a player has taken a huge beating and it will be interesting to see how he bounces back from this because he has the neutrals against him now.

 

[Pogue Mahone]

Its such a small sample size and especially this season that it is basically useless. Surely its better he gets rested against smaller teams so we avoid running him into the ground like we have this season.
I will say the injury to Eriksen couldnt have come at a worse time. If we had both Sabitzer and Eriksen we could have rested Bruno against some of the smaller teams and we would not have witnessed this.

I do think we should have found a way to rest him but I also think us fans have no way of knowing which players most need time out. And ETH has been pretty clear recently that him and Fred need less rest than most.

I just wish we had even one game to think back on where he was out of the team and we performed to a reasonable standard. And there must have been at least 6 or 7 games to think back on by now. But every single time we’ve looked completely and utterly toothless.

 

[spiriticon]

Bruno is getting cooked everywhere and by everyone. I've been pretty vocal about not liking him but even I didn't anticipate him being the villain of yesterday's result.

His character and reputation as a player has taken a huge beating and it will be interesting to see how he bounces back from this because he has the neutrals against him now.

yeah well, he was the captain yesterday.

Not only did he fail to calm his team, he failed to calm himself

 

[romufc]

Bruno is getting cooked everywhere and by everyone. I've been pretty vocal about not liking him but even I didn't anticipate him being the villain of yesterday's result.

His character and reputation as a player has taken a huge beating and it will be interesting to see how he bounces back from this because he has the neutrals against him now.

Bruno will get cooked because there is a large portion of fan base that does not like him.

If someone tells me the reason we lost 7-0 is because of Bruno, is clearly clueless. His antics were not great but I am sure Ten Hag will deal with it and he will be told very firmly that his behaviour was not acceptable.

However; this is what fans wanted, something to go at Bruno about and they have got it. Its up to him now to show his character.

If he rises, well done, if not, he doesn't have the mentality for United.

 

[hobbers]

When you say “good for the club” have you actually watched the games we’ve played without him over the last few years? Shit shows, one and all.

Not a logical post this given that he's played in almost every game for us including every single drubbing. Every humiliation.

Games without him in the last 2 seasons: The Villa defeat. Charlton, Spurs and Burnley - all wins. That's it.

Leicester 4-2, Liverpool 5-0, City 2-0, Watford 4-1, City 4-1, Liverpool 4-0, Arsenal 3-1, Brighton 4-0, Brighton 2-1, Brentford 4-0, City 6-3, Liverpool 7-0.

Guess who played 90 minutes in all but one of these games (and 62 in the other)?

 

[Real Name]

As @Pogue Mahone said, the amount of hate this guy gets is nothing sort of astonishing.

 

[bond19821982]

As @Pogue Mahone said, the amount of hate this guy gets is nothing sort of astonishing.

Toxic fan base. Just waiting for a moment to criticise him.

 

[Pogue Mahone]

Not a logical post this given that he's played in almost every game for us including every single drubbing. Every humiliation.

Games without him in the last 2 seasons: The Villa defeat. Charlton, Spurs and Burnley - all wins. That's it.

Leicester 4-2, Liverpool 5-0, City 2-0, Watford 4-1, City 4-1, Liverpool 4-0, Arsenal 3-1, Brighton 4-0, Brighton 2-1, Brentford 4-0, City 6-3, Liverpool 7-0.

Guess who played 90 minutes in all but one of these games (and 62 in the other)?

I’m not sure if you’re being dumb or deliberately obtuse. But might as well point this out anyway. A player who is involved in almost every one of our matches will be involved in almost every one of our defeats.

Did he sit out the full 90 of any of those games without him? My memory is that in all of them, he turned the game coming on off the bench. Villa being the exception, because he was banned, so couldn’t contribute at all. Hence we copped a humiliating defeat in a game we should have won.

 

[Baxter]

Not a logical post this given that he's played in almost every game for us including every single drubbing. Every humiliation.

Games without him in the last 2 seasons: The Villa defeat. Charlton, Spurs and Burnley - all wins. That's it.

Leicester 4-2, Liverpool 5-0, City 2-0, Watford 4-1, City 4-1, Liverpool 4-0, Arsenal 3-1, Brighton 4-0, Brighton 2-1, Brentford 4-0, City 6-3, Liverpool 7-0.

Guess who played 90 minutes in all but one of these games (and 62 in the other)?

Given that he plays 90 minutes almost every week, it's not really a surprise that he's in for those defeats.

If we're playing that game, I think the highest paid goalkeeper in the world is more at fault for some of those scorelines.

 

[lost7]

We conceded 7 goals for the first time in a match in over 60 years and he was our captain - he deserves massive criticism. Especially because he was one of the first one to give up.

Chalking off valid criticism as "hate" is shambolic right now

 

[Real Name]

We conceded 7 goals for the first time in a match in over 60 years and he was our captain - he deserves massive criticism. Especially because he was one of the first one to give up.

Chalking off valid criticism as "hate" is shambolic right now

Was he 'the one of the first to give up' though?
How do you measure or conclude that exactly? Is that really valid criticism or just made up?

 

[ZainCRse7en]

Play him at the 10 role, he is world class. Play him anywhere else, he is ineffective. This should be crystal clear by now.