[Shark]

Some of the posts on here are shocking.

 

[Phil]

We really do have some absolute lunatics on here, funny read

We truly do. What a shit show this thread is.

 

[AjaxCunian]

When has this schedule ever happened? When have players ever played this much? And when since this began have any of them had any rest?

Calling for rest like that is the magical potion happened long before Covid and still happens within the season. We will call for players needing rest this match X, at times they'll get some rest and their form/play improves zilch.

I am not disputing that rest would do Bruno good. Rest will do all the players good but dont just put everything under the "rest-rug".

 

[bsCallout]

Calling for rest like that is the magical potion happened long before Covid and still happens within the season. We will call for players needing rest this match X, at times they'll get some rest and their form/play improves zilch.

I am not disputing that rest would do Bruno good. Rest will do all the players good but dont just put everything under the "rest-rug".

Except that still ignores what has happened this season. So whilst that might have been a relevant point before Covid, until we actually see these players who have played an unprecedented amount in such a short time with less rest than ever, get some rest, it's probably reasonable to assume they'll benefit greatly from some rest. A game here or there doesn't constitute rest.

 

[AshRK]

The standard of caf has become like twitter. I think most are agenda driven posters which has become the norm. I see the guy who bumped this thread is also on the Ole thread bashing him. I won't be surprised if he goes to the Maguire thread when he has a bad game. Freedom of speech and presenting opinions is good but there should be a line to preserve quality, which caf has lost.

 

[rotherham_red]

Some of the posts on here are shocking.

We truly do. What a shit show this thread is.

The standard of caf has become like twitter. I think most are agenda driven posters which has become the norm. I see the guy who bumped this thread is also on the Ole thread bashing him. I won't be surprised if he goes to the Maguire thread when he has a bad game. Freedom of speech and presenting opinions is good but there should be a line to preserve quality, which caf has lost.

These people are either what Ash called them out to be, or they are really, really dumb.

Either way, they deserve Jose's shit on a stick football and don't deserve to have seen what we saw unfold when Bruno came into the team.

I find myself less and less on the caf these days, and it's precisely because the level of discourse has descended into the gutter, and unfortunately I don't think it will ever improve. It's a societal thing more than anything else, and young people nowadays just consume the game in a different way, through YouTube clips etc rather than actually watching the game. They follow players rather than teams. It's just so, so weird, but it is what it is.

 

[AjaxCunian]

Except that still ignores what has happened this season. So whilst that might have been a relevant point before Covid, until we actually see these players who have played an unprecedented amount in such a short time with less rest than ever, get some rest, it's probably reasonable to assume they'll benefit greatly from some rest. A game here or there doesn't constitute rest.

And what if I say it isn't reasonable to assume that all or majority of the flaws/criticism surrounding playerz isn't due to a lack of rest, like it wasnt before Covid?

I guess let's wait and see? In 2023? That's when they'll have a proper pre-season break?

 

[A-man]

Correct. Players don't "have to" do that. And then you have a player in Bruno who sprint 60 yards to track back and then sprint back again 60 yards to counter, and then again, and again, without compromising his job of creating chances, playing 90 mins week in week out. You got to admit the man must be appreciated. No?

I can absolutely appreciate it. Absolutely. It’s admirable. But if it is true what many believe, that Bruno has dropped in form because of playing too much, then it might have been smarter to not take all those runs and last the full season instead. If this is his only way of playing, Ole has got to take him off more often.

 

[bsCallout]

And what if I say it isn't reasonable to assume that all or majority of the flaws/criticism surrounding playerz isn't due to a lack of rest, like it wasnt before Covid?

I guess let's wait and see? In 2023? That's when they'll have a proper pre-season break?

We are on a Bruno thread, he's only played for us during Covid pretty much.

At the very least your point is misdirected.

I'm not sure who else you're referring to though. A lack of rest and recovery is a real problem for athletes.

 

[AshRK]

These people are either what Ash called them out to be, or they are really, really dumb.

Either way, they deserve Jose's shit on a stick football and don't deserve to have seen what we saw unfold when Bruno came into the team.

I find myself less and less on the caf these days, and it's precisely because the level of discourse has descended into the gutter, and unfortunately I don't think it will ever improve. It's a societal thing more than anything else, and young people nowadays just consume the game in a different way, through YouTube clips etc rather than actually watching the game. They follow players rather than teams. It's just so, so weird, but it is what it is.

I see this more with United fans than other club's fans. You won't see Liverpool fans mocking thiago or keita let alone their best players in salah or mane. You have so called United fans who love to mock Ole, rashford, Pogba, bruno, Maguire, Mctominay, Lindelof to name a few.

I feel people think it's cool to mock their own players or manager. I am all for constructive criticism but issue is most of them are about mocking so that their agenda is proven right. There are a lot of Ole out supporters in twitter who also hate Maguire, James, Awb and even Bruno. But really rate vdb and call him a winner. They can't stand Mctominay but rate Matic. During the Spain Sweden game, Mark Goldbridge from United stand kept on mocking Lindelof and when he was given Motm he was super pissed. I am like why would you be pissed if a player from your own club wins a Motm. And these guys run a huge United fan tv channel. Shows how messed up it has become. I bet had social media existed during SAF time they would have called sir alex a mere cheer leader.

 

[rotherham_red]

I see this more with United fans than other club's fans. You won't see Liverpool fans mocking thiago or keita let alone their best players in salah or mane. You have so called United fans who love to mock Ole, rashford, Pogba, bruno, Maguire, Mctominay, Lindelof to name a few.

I feel people think it's cool to mock their own players or manager. I am all for constructive criticism but issue is most of them are about mocking so that their agenda is proven right. There are a lot of Ole out supporters in twitter who also hate Maguire, James, Awb and even Bruno. But really rate vdb and call him a winner. They can't stand Mctominay but rate Matic. During the Spain Sweden game, Mark Goldbridge from United stand kept on mocking Lindelof and when he was given Motm he was super pissed. I am like why would you be pissed if a player from your own club wins a Motm. And these guys run a huge United fan tv channel. Shows how messed up it has become. I bet had social media existed during SAF time they would have called sir alex a mere cheer leader.

I mean, Goldbridge is the Patron Saint of Utd fan twatdom, so I'm not surprised. Agree with the rest of your post. I'm in a WhatsApp group with quite a few people who are/were on the caf and this same issue is on there as well. Where it's somehow gotten to the point that I (and a few others tbf), as someone who actually supports the club, the players and the manager, is the freak or the odd one out.

Somehow, fandom has morphed into analysis and this need for objectivity and neutrality trumps everything else. Whereas in the past I was just seen as any normal fan - partisan in my support, and backing everyone concerned at the club to do well, now I get tarred with the Top Red brush by a bunch of kids who were still swimming in their dad's ball sack when we were last any good.

 

[AjaxCunian]

We are on a Bruno thread, he's only played for us during Covid pretty much.

At the very least your point is misdirected.

I'm not sure who else you're referring to though. A lack of rest and recovery is a real problem for athletes.

What is your point? Are you honestly trying to say that all or most criticism directed towards Bruno is because he hasnt had enough rest?

And once again, Ive never disputed that rest and recovery is a real problem for athletes. I just think it is lazy + wrong that whenever players get criticised, it is because of lack of rest.

 

[A-man]

What is your point? Are you honestly trying to say that all or most criticism directed towards Bruno is because he hasnt had enough rest?

And once again, Ive never disputed that rest and recovery is a real problem for athletes. I just think it is lazy + wrong that whenever players get criticised, it is because of lack of rest.

I think Bruno’s amazing output and impact, where he basically saved us last season, has made him untouchable. The only critique acceptable is to say he was poor because he needs some rest.

12.3% of all posts in this thread mention the word “rest” so it is a popular explanation.The first time it was mentioned as reason for him having a match off, was in September.

I think there should be room for more than that. Everybody knows the impact he has had at United and criticising him or the way he is being used by Ole doesn’t mean he is a poor player.

 

[A-man]

I see this more with United fans than other club's fans. You won't see Liverpool fans mocking thiago or keita let alone their best players in salah or mane. You have so called United fans who love to mock Ole, rashford, Pogba, bruno, Maguire, Mctominay, Lindelof to name a few.

I feel people think it's cool to mock their own players or manager. I am all for constructive criticism but issue is most of them are about mocking so that their agenda is proven right. There are a lot of Ole out supporters in twitter who also hate Maguire, James, Awb and even Bruno. But really rate vdb and call him a winner. They can't stand Mctominay but rate Matic. During the Spain Sweden game, Mark Goldbridge from United stand kept on mocking Lindelof and when he was given Motm he was super pissed. I am like why would you be pissed if a player from your own club wins a Motm. And these guys run a huge United fan tv channel. Shows how messed up it has become. I bet had social media existed during SAF time they would have called sir alex a mere cheer leader.

Great post. This mocking of players is what would get you a punch in the face a few years ago, when the fans stood behind their club. Now you see fans doing it to their own players, it’s disgusting. Critique, yes. Mocking, no, as mocking a player is mocking the club.

 

[bsCallout]

What is your point? Are you honestly trying to say that all or most criticism directed towards Bruno is because he hasnt had enough rest?

And once again, Ive never disputed that rest and recovery is a real problem for athletes. I just think it is lazy + wrong that whenever players get criticised, it is because of lack of rest.

I think Bruno’s amazing output and impact, where he basically saved us last season, has made him untouchable. The only critique acceptable is to say he was poor because he needs some rest.

12.3% of all posts in this thread mention the word “rest” so it is a popular explanation.The first time it was mentioned as reason for him having a match off, was in September.

I think there should be room for more than that. Everybody knows the impact he has had at United and criticising him or the way he is being used by Ole doesn’t mean he is a poor player.

Don't try to put words into my mouth. My point Ajax was to say you can't just ignore the rest arguement because it suits. It's a very real thing and this season has been like no other. There is a reason it is mentioned, it doesn't need to be an excuse for his weaknesses but it HAS to be part of the discussion.

I'm very aware of Bruno's weaknesses, irrespective of whether he needs rest. The fact is though that he does need rest.

You'd be mental to assume that he wouldn't improve with better rest and recovery. That still doesn't mean he's the best player in the world once he has been rested, he's still got weaknesses.

The problem is many in this thread are over emphasising the weaknesses in a period where he is not at his best for obvious reasons.

Even a fully rested Bruno will annoy us from time to time but let's not make out that his performances in such a horribly congested period are the true reflection of his level/ability.

 

[AshRK]

Great post. This mocking of players is what would get you a punch in the face a few years ago, when the fans stood behind their club. Now you see fans doing it to their own players, it’s disgusting. Critique, yes. Mocking, no, as mocking a player is mocking the club.

And it mostly happens with United fans. I rarely see chelsea fan or arsenal fan or Liverpool fan mocking or trolling their players. Chelsea fans go to the limit to defend werner, heck they even defended Lampard. Liverpool fans still promote Thiago as a pirlo type for them. Meanwhile our fans will call Maguire a fridge and giggle with other club's fans. It is truly pathetic.

 

[AjaxCunian]

Don't try to put words into my mouth. My point Ajax was to say you can't just ignore the rest arguement because it suits. It's a very real thing and this season has been like no other. There is a reason it is mentioned, it doesn't need to be an excuse for his weaknesses but it HAS to be part of the discussion.

I'm very aware of Bruno's weaknesses, irrespective of whether he needs rest. The fact is though that he does need rest.

You'd be mental to assume that he wouldn't improve with better rest and recovery. That still doesn't mean he's the best player in the world once he has been rested, he's still got weaknesses.

The problem is many in this thread are over emphasising the weaknesses in a period where he is not at his best for obvious reasons.

Even a fully rested Bruno will annoy us from time to time but let's not make out that his performances in such a horribly congested period are the true reflection of his level/ability.

I largely agree with you but don't know how you determine overemphasising his weaknesses.

I would disagree with people calling him s***, trash, poor, overrated etc. However he does bave weaknesses, combines with Pogba's weaknesses they can be problematic.

 

[bsCallout]

I largely agree with you but don't know how you determine overemphasising his weaknesses.

I would disagree with people calling him s***, trash, poor, overrated etc. However he does bave weaknesses, combines with Pogba's weaknesses they can be problematic.

I agree with that, to the same extent he's been such an good and important player that he deserves the benefit of the doubt and we want to see him rested and at his best.

Those comments calling him that are the exact ones overemphasising his weaknesses.

I don't believe for a second that Bruno's weaknesses will hold us back though. He brings too much to the team otherwise.

 

[tenpoless]

Saying Bruno is trash or shit is like when you have a very tasty candy bar but instead of eating it, you open the package, eat the package and throw the candy away. What is wrong with you. Jesus man.

 

[Tony247]

Saying Bruno is trash or shit is like when you have a very tasty candy bar but instead of eating it, you open the package, eat the package and throw the candy away. What is wrong with you. Jesus man.

at least some of us have not lost sense of humor.

 

[AjaxCunian]

I agree with that, to the same extent he's been such an good and important player that he deserves the benefit of the doubt and we want to see him rested and at his best.

Those comments calling him that are the exact ones overemphasising his weaknesses.

I don't believe for a second that Bruno's weaknesses will hold us back though. He brings too much to the team otherwise.

I can't see us improving on Bruno anytime soon. I wouldnt say he is a problem or the problem.

I just think we need a consistent midfielder behind him or next to him. When Pogba and Bruno have a poor game (which happens quite a lot in bigger matches it seems), we are in big trouble for those key matches which very much decide whether we have a good season or not.

 

[bsCallout]

I can't see us improving on Bruno anytime soon. I wouldnt say he is a problem or the problem.

I just think we need a consistent midfielder behind him or next to him. When Pogba and Bruno have a poor game (which happens quite a lot in bigger matches it seems), we are in big trouble for those key matches which very much decide whether we have a good season or not.

Sancho will add a lot to that missing creativity. But I don't think Pogba and Bruno particularly works, we need someone who can play the ball from deep too. Many don't like him but I think Neves could do that for us, but so could Garner probably.

 

[Tony247]

I can't see us improving on Bruno anytime soon. I wouldnt say he is a problem or the problem.

I just think we need a consistent midfielder behind him or next to him. When Pogba and Bruno have a poor game (which happens quite a lot in bigger matches it seems), we are in big trouble for those key matches which very much decide whether we have a good season or not.

Of course you can't make a title winning team just by buying one player when there are holes in many places. What Bruno has done is maximum he can improve literally on his own. He has brought fluidity and creativity in the attack, lifted the team so much that we are finishing at respectable position now. It is now up to the club to build a team around him and give him players, especially CF, who can give the final push to make us win trophies. I honestly don't think Sancho is the final piece of the puzzle.

Let's see, after Bruno joined in Feb 2020 we improved a lot. He has set a bar high. Now the club needs to buy quality at other places to raise the bar further. Which quality players the club bought to play with him week in week out in that summer? Rest entire team is exactly the same. Bought VdB, such a disapponted he is. Cavani is a hit, but practically we cannot rely on him for entire season. Who else? Nobody! When you say improve more, improve how? He has done, doing more than enough we asked for. Period. Onus is on club to build further.

Imagine, god forbid, touchwood, if something happens and Bruno is out for a season, then United are practically back to Jan 2020 level with only silver lining of Cavani. This is where united is currently. Hanging by luck, hoping Bruno doesn't get injured. Else we are fecked.

 

[André Dominguez]

Sack Ole! Sell Bruno!

 

[Tony247]

What some expecting:
Jan 2020 united team + Bruno + Cavani = PL title, FA cup, CL etc.

Reality:
Jan 2020 united team + Bruno = 3rd in PL
Jan 2020 untied team + Bruno + Cavani = 2nd in PL
Jan 2020 united team + Bruno + Cavani + CF + RW + CB + perhaps CDM = PL title, FA cup, CL etc

 

[Tony247]

all that and yet he's trash that needs to be sold

And to add to his trashiness, he is #18 in total tackles for the entire season. Among united players only AWB has more tackles than Bruno.

 

[Schmeichel's Cartwheel]

Sack Ole! Sell Bruno!

Appoint Fergie, sign Giggs

 

[BusbyMalone]

What some expecting:
Jan 2020 united team + Bruno + Cavani = PL title, FA cup, CL etc.

Reality:
Jan 2020 united team + Bruno = 3rd in PL
Jan 2020 untied team + Bruno + Cavani = 2nd in PL
Jan 2020 united team + Bruno + Cavani + CF + RW + CB + perhaps CDM = PL title, FA cup, CL etc

Was there anyone on this forum who expected us to win the treble? I don't think i seen any

 

[charlenefan]

And to add to his trashiness, he is #18 in total tackles for the entire season. Among united players only AWB has more tackles than Bruno.

So much trash

 

[RooneyLegend]

So yeah 2nd most goals in the league if you would like to put it that way.

One could also write it like 1,92 goals a game but it doesn't sound as depressing.

Let's get back on track to your agenda: Bruno's not World Class. About the Same output as Salah and a better one than KdB, but definitely not World Class

73goals is not great no matter how you try to paint it. Have you not seen how many goals title winning teams score these days?

His stats without penalties are nothing ground breaking. Infact, Rashford has more goals and assists than him in open play. Don't see you going around telling us that he's the best this and that in the league.

Yeah it's a problem because we play with midfield that can't pass the ball, the player who created most chances is top 5 leagues isn't the people for lack of creativity.

The problem is our other players don't fit the system that he plays in.

Start with the manager first. Then we can go from there.

Subject for another day.

I don't get this arguement, why does he need to be the key player? If the team gets better and those around him get better and we play better without him then he will be on the bench.

On the other hand we might see the best of Bruno in a better team. Hes certainly the type to do whatever it takes to improve so that can be part of the team. Seems like no one is harder on him than himself.

It's not like he's on stupid wages or even cost a stupid amount, at the same time I don't think we'd easily recoup that money. That is the sort of player we should have in our squad, whether they start or not.

A second striker is a key player in a 4-2-3-1. Can't recall a time when he wasnt.

Nope. Since Bruno arrived, with him and Pogba around, creativity is no longer an issue for united. The reason we did not score enough is that we do not have all cylinders firing strikers. That is the big gap all pundits and Ole have identified. Reason we desparately want Cavani to stay as an interim solution.

In PL for 20/21 season, Bruno is #1 in total chances created among all PL players, #1 in key passes outside the box, #1 in key passes from anywhere. He is #2 in total assists, Bruno is ranked #2 valuable AM in the world behind KDB. In addition, he is the 10th most valuable player in the world. No united player is ahead of him as of now.

Those pundits and Ole are wrong, it'll end in tears. We're playing a 4-2-3-1 without wide players who can transition the ball through the phases. With a second striker with a penchant for turning the ball over. Those stats are nice and cute but it doesn't mean anything if our team play can't go up a level.

Because of the need to fit him in we have Rashford playing as a traditional winger, we've got Greenwood doing the same, we have Pogba playing deep or even on the wings at times. All of that isn't going to take us anywhere.

The biggest tactical difference I observered in Portual vs united is Bruno's position. United's game is centered around Bruno. Everything goes through him. He has a free roaming role. He always makes himself available for a pass, be it in the center of field of final third. You have the ball, Bruno is there to give you an option. Moreover united teammates look for him and pass the ball to him. He dicates the flow, he dictates the direction.

For Portual, I see Bruno most of the times is deployed in final third like false 9. When he drops deep, Jota and Silva simply ignore him. FFS you have the most valuable portuguese player playing next to you, #2 most formidable AM in the world, then you bloody pass the ball to him and not try to do things on your own. It would be really interesting to find number of times ball recevied by Bruno in the Euro.

BTW, I don't see Bruno is tired.

In order to fit him in they've moved people around and it's hurting their team. Not too disimilar to what's happened at United.

 

[charlenefan]

73goals is not great no matter how you try to paint it. Have you not seen how many goals title winning teams score these days?

Yep champions City scored 83, massive world of difference

 

[roonster09]

The problem is our other players don't fit the system that he plays in.

Which players?

 

[bosnian_red]

His stats without penalties are nothing ground breaking. Infact, Rashford has more goals and assists than him in open play. Don't see you going around telling us that he's the best this and that in the league.

Creatively speaking, his passing stats are pretty much right there with De Bruyne as being the best creators in the world. Very similar shooting stats as well, I agree he's not necessarily a world class goalscorer without the penalties but being the best penalty taker in the world is a nice bonus.
But all of these stats:

• Shot creating actions
• xA
• key passes
• passes into penalty area
• passes into final third
• progressive passes
• even pass completion %
• progressive passes Received
• touches in the attacking 3rd
• touches in the midfield 3rd

They are pretty much right up there alongside each other with those stats per 90 minutes. He is an elite creator with his passing (and both are ahead of Grealish for example). De Bruyne offers more with his dribbling, and Grealish offers more than both with his dribbling, but both offer far more in the way of shooting and goalscoring than Grealish does. And then Bruno offers more with his general work rate/pressing etc.

Take out penalties, Bruno is still a world class #10 (though depending on definition I understand wanting to wait for him to step up in the biggest games for that label). The penalties are nice for the stat padding of course, and there's no doubting that he occasionally loses form and gets annoying, but so does everyone. I'd say he's far more harmed with the systems he is in then somebody like De Bruyne though, and he's in the situation where for both club and country they use a very limited midfield 2 behind him.

 

[bsCallout]

73goals is not great no matter how you try to paint it. Have you not seen how many goals title winning teams score these days?

His stats without penalties are nothing ground breaking. Infact, Rashford has more goals and assists than him in open play. Don't see you going around telling us that he's the best this and that in the league.

The problem is our other players don't fit the system that he plays in.
Subject for another day.
A second striker is a key player in a 4-2-3-1. Can't recall a time when he wasnt.
Those pundits and Ole are wrong, it'll end in tears. We're playing a 4-2-3-1 without wide players who can transition the ball through the phases. With a second striker with a penchant for turning the ball over. Those stats are nice and cute but it doesn't mean anything if our team play can't go up a level.

Because of the need to fit him in we have Rashford playing as a traditional winger, we've got Greenwood doing the same, we have Pogba playing deep or even on the wings at times. All of that isn't going to take us anywhere.
In order to fit him in they've moved people around and it's hurting their team. Not too disimilar to what's happened at United.

I'm not sure what sort of player you are expecting there in the 4-2-3-1 formation, which is what Ole plays.

Also being the 2nd striker in that formation doesn't mean they have to be a key player anymore than any other player.

 

[Tony247]

Was there anyone on this forum who expected us to win the treble? I don't think i seen any

Not treble. Any, one or many. I assumed by improvement from second place means winning PL next time, at least. So, my point was, not going to happen. We might slip but improvement further without adding more horsepower is not possible IMHO.

 

[mitchmouse]

Bruno definitely needs a rest... in days gone by, SAF would have enough options to give him a break at the start of the season...

 

[He'sRaldo]

Which players?

The wide forwards playing more as wingers, and the box-to-box mids playing more as sitting mids.

The way I see it that's one of the reasons for Rashford's drop in performance from 19/20 to 20/21. He's still playing on the left wing, but his role is different now.

Granted it's not Bruno's presence exactly that's causing this, it's his current role in the team. Something that a formation and role tweak should be able to fix.

 

[Tony247]

Because of the need to fit him in we have Rashford playing as a traditional winger, we've got Greenwood doing the same, we have Pogba playing deep or even on the wings at times. All of that isn't going to take us anywhere.
In order to fit him in they've moved people around and it's hurting their team. Not too disimilar to what's happened at United.

What! all players' position are exactly where they were before Bruno joined!

I think you have absolutely no idea what you are talking about. Please carry on.

 

[He'sRaldo]

Those pundits and Ole are wrong, it'll end in tears. We're playing a 4-2-3-1 without wide players who can transition the ball through the phases. With a second striker with a penchant for turning the ball over. Those stats are nice and cute but it doesn't mean anything if our team play can't go up a level.

Because of the need to fit him in we have Rashford playing as a traditional winger, we've got Greenwood doing the same, we have Pogba playing deep or even on the wings at times. All of that isn't going to take us anywhere.

Agreed, this setup is an issue.

 

[roonster09]

The wide forwards playing more as wingers, and the box-to-box mids playing more as sitting mids.

The way I see it that's one of the reasons for Rashford's drop in performance from 19/20 to 20/21. He's still playing on the left wing, but his role is different now.

Granted it's not Bruno's presence exactly that's causing this, it's his current role in the team. Something that a formation and role tweak should be able to fix.

There is nothing wrong with the roles of Rashford or Greenwood as wide forwards. For example, Rashford was among top 10 or top 15 when it comes to goal contributions and he was better than Bruno in goal contributions from open play, so it's not Bruno that's holding them back, it's Rashford's overall play which was poor for lot of various reasons (injury being the most reported).

Only player whose position or role that was impacted was Pogba's. McT, Fred, Rashford, Cavani/Martial, Greenwood all play the exact same role with or without Bruno.