[roonster09]

The team is not benifitting from the tactics employed which mainly evolve around Bruno been given a free role.

Why is that not a discussion. Not the statistical obvious. That doesn’t bring much of a discussion. Which was my point.

Well you did 2+2 and came up with 2 million, only few are capable on this forum and you sure are one.

 

[Rozay]

It's all well and good but this post should be posted in Ole thread, not individual players. You can replace Bruno with prime Ozil and we will still be the same team.

The points you made, that #10 should be someone knitting the game together, retain possession, it won't happen just by fielding bunch of good players.

Like I said, if we had KdB instead of Bruno, people would have said the same thing. Should give up his assist for more control of the game when it's not him or Bruno who should be controlling the game.

Edit: In a way it's funny all these posts. You used to defend Pogba (I used to and still do tbh) when the criticism was him not controlling the game, creating chances, scoring goals. Expecting one player to do it all when we had such a poor system. Now it's Bruno turn and people expect a lot from one player.

I was wondering when we’ll end up at the ‘but Pogba’ juncture.

I’m not liking the way Bruno is playing, so I can discuss it in the Bruno thread. I could also discuss it in Ole’s thread - yes, I have also discussed it in a number of threads about ‘our midfield’, one of which I created last season (‘the shape of our midfield’), but I can also certainly mention it in the Bruno thread.

I see the issue as a structural one, far more than a quality one. That goes for Bruno or the other two midfielders. What I don’t know, is who is responsible for itI just know that I don’t like it. And by it, I mean the positions our 10 takes up.

And if you were reading my posts rather than looking at them through a ‘Pogba vs Bruno’ prism - you would see that I do NOT expect Bruno to do everything. You would see that I’ve said many times that I don’t see the goalscoring burden as his. I’d rather a midfielder be a midfielder - then if the forwards do not score enough goals, they should be held accountable not him. I’m perfectly fine with my #10 no breaking goalscoring records. I mean, great of he does, but that isn’t fundamental for me, but then that may well come down to preference in the role.

As for the quality of Fred and McTominay, I’ve spoken about that more than enough in those particular threads too. And when I am talking about it there, I don’t bring up Bruno and make it about him either. With this conversation being about Bruno however...

 

[Mainoldo]

Well you did 2+2 and came up with 2 million, only few are capable on this forum and you sure are one.

Fine. But you still haven’t answered the question.

 

[roonster09]

I was wondering when we’ll end up at the ‘but Pogba’ juncture.

I’m not liking the way Bruno is playing, so I can discuss it in the Bruno thread. I could also discuss it in Ole’s thread - yes, I have also discussed it in a number of threads about ‘our midfield’, one of which I created last season (‘the shape of our midfield’), but I can also certainly mention it in the Bruno thread.

I see the issue as a structural one, far more than a quality one. That goes for Bruno or the other two midfielders. What I don’t know, is who is responsible for itI just know that I don’t like it. And by it, I mean the positions our 10 takes up.

And if you were reading my posts rather than looking at them through a ‘Pogba vs Bruno’ prism - you would see that I do NOT expect Bruno to do everything. You would see that I’ve said many times that I don’t see the goalscoring burden as his. I’d rather a midfielder be a midfielder - then if the forwards do not score enough goals, they should be held accountable not him. I’m perfectly fine with my #10 no breaking goalscoring records. I mean, great of he does, but that isn’t fundamental for me, but then that may well come down to preference in the role.

As for the quality of Fred and McTominay, I’ve spoken about that more than enough in those particular threads too. And when I am talking about it there, I don’t bring up Bruno and make it about him either. With this conversation being about Bruno however...

Well it's logical to expect consistency in arguments.

Regarding who is responsible for the way we play, maybe if I post this in big post, this particular point gets lost. So I will just post it without any other info

"Ole is responsible. Check his interview where he said he wants his players to go for quick forward passes, he also said at max the risk is we lose possession, so what, just press high up and win it again"

Now relate that to how we play, it's exact way how Ole wants us to play.

 

[roonster09]

Fine. But you still haven’t answered the question.

What question

 

[Mainoldo]

What question

The same one you highlighted in bold.

 

[roonster09]

The same one you highlighted in bold.

The team isn't benefiting from the tactics and it has nothing to do with Bruno.

 

[Stacks]

This isn’t a blame game for me, whether Bruno or Ole or whoever is at ‘fault’ isn’t really my point. My issue is that I think it is holding us back from going up a level as a team.

I feel like our model or team structure requires us to have the very best players in the world everywhere. This is where this debate of ‘patterns of play vs individual brilliance’ comes into it. If we rely upon individual brilliance, then we need the most brilliant individuals everywhere, which is why we always feel like we need more in the transfer forum. There doesn’t seem to be any extra we gain from the structure and cohesion of the unit. All that we have is because Bruno, Rashford, Pogba, Martial etc sometimes do things, because they are good players. However, they are not doing enough things for us to be first, so now we need to go and get better ones. It’s the only way we can win.

My particular focus on Bruno here is because the way I see the game, knitting the play together is the fundamental role of the #10. I expect them to move all around the pitch, making themselves available for a series of 5 yard passes, one-touch passes so that as a unit, we can move more fluidly. I don’t think in and of itself, our inability to do this is because Scott and Fred are not great. If they had that short pass on, they would use it. It’s how I see Silva play the role for instance, and due to his close control, dribbling/press resistance and perpetual motion - it made City very hard to take the ball off.

I don’t think this is a Bruno problem in terms of him simply not being good enough. I mean, I do feel there are better suited 10s to this, but still, we can cross that bridge when we a least sort out the structure. Someone like Grealish is suited to this type of set up more.

For me - the issue is that either Ole has instructed Bruno to concentrate on being decisive and take up the areas to do so, or that Bruno himself is driven by a desire to be decisive and takes up areas where he fan affect the scoreline. Whoever’s fault it is isn’t my point. The point is more that to le, the problem exists. We simply cannot play with two midfielders and expect anything other than this, to quote the great Paul Merson - ‘you ‘ave a shot, we ‘ave a shot’ football that the majority of our games descend into, whether we are playing Chelsea, Sheffield United, Fulham or West Brom. I don’t like it, I don’t like the odds and I see it as percentage footy. I’m not saying we have to pass sideways all game either, but the balance needs to be far better than it is.

Personally, I didn’t want us to sign Bruno not because I don’t rate him (although at the time I also thought he was not as good a player as he has turned out to be) - but more because, and I kept saying at the time, that I wanted us to go after a ‘proper midfielder’ instead. My personal vision was for a 433 with a double 8 and a 6. A Herrera replacement if you like, who would go along with Pogba and infront of Fred or Scott. Someone like Saúl or Barella were my dream signings, as I feel that the team need 3 midfielders to control games. I agree that we also need better midfielders than a Fred/Scott pairing - and I’d have less of an issue if Bruno himself just played 10/15 yards further back. He and Pogba played near enough alongside each other against Sevilla last season, and we were brilliant. We controlled the game and created several chances, which the likes of Martial and Rashford couldn’t take, against quality opposition too.

the bolded bit has even been echoed by Neville this season and Carragher. United obsessed with the next transfer window, the next transfer window, transfers and more transfers.
I feel the Bruno issue is probably a bit of both. I am not sure but it seems he is playing further forward now than last season. I don't recall the free role last year but maybe I'm wrong.

 

[Rozay]

Well it's logical to expect consistency in arguments.

Regarding who is responsible for the way we play, maybe if I post this in big post, this particular point gets lost. So I will just post it without any other info

"Ole is responsible. Check his interview where he said he wants his players to go for quick forward passes, he also said at max the risk is we lose possession, so what, just press high up and win it again"

Now relate that to how we play, it's exact way how Ole wants us to play.

Well this isn’t the same argument.

And I don’t like it. I didn’t say Bruno is responsible. But it is ridiculous to say that I should not discuss his role in the team in his thread and should instead go and take it up with the manager. Performance threads are to discuss performances. Contrary to what the caf seem to think, they aren’t threads to levy blame. I’ve come in here to discuss Bruno’s role in the team. Not to say that he doesn’t help us control games because he’s too lazy, has the wrong agent, has an attitude problem or blue hair. I haven’t blamed him. Whose fault it is is not my point. The issue is that we don’t have enough bodies in the middle of the park IMO. And as I’ve said - I’ve mentioned that more than enough in many a thread about ‘our midfield’ - and also referenced Matic’s role in the structure (many times) in that he spends most of his time in the back line and not in the middle. And now I’m mentioning it in a Bruno thread, but you seem to find it odd as it seemingly has no relation to him at all.

 

[roonster09]

@Rozay

"In the first two or three moments after you win the ball, can you go forward?" he tells Sky Sports ahead of the Monday Night Football clash with Southampton at Old Trafford. "Can you go straight at them? If you lose the ball, don't worry about it! You are so close to them, you can win it back. It has been so great to see the attitude of: 'OK, I will try, and if I don't succeed I will just go and win the ball back!'


"It's fantastic for me to see them express themselves, because that's a Manchester United team. We need to take chances, take risks, be brave, and most of the time you will reap the rewards if you are brave. We need to keep that mentality and bravery going forward."

"To have the right mindset is a choice. You cannot choose not to give 100 per cent. You cannot choose to think: 'Oh no, I'm not going to run after the ball.' You can have the right mindset before the game to think: 'I'm going to be a Manchester United player, I'm going to take risks, I'm going to be brave, I've got to try and make a difference in the right areas of the pitch, and if it doesn't work, so what?' What's the worst thing that can happen, you lose the ball and you try to win it back!"

This is from Ole's interview and there was one more interview with Neville when he was appointed, Ole said he doesn't like "tippy tappy nonsense" and wants his players for look for forward pass.

What you see on the pitch is what coach usually wants from the team. If we want to control possession and still players just take many risks then they will be eating bench like how Herrera was dropped even when he was playing well but left his zone or something under Van Gaal.

 

[roonster09]

Well this isn’t the same argument.

And I don’t like it. I didn’t say Bruno is responsible. But it is ridiculous to say that I should not discuss his role in the team in his thread and should instead go and take it up with the manager. Performance threads are to discuss performances. Contrary to what the caf seem to think, they aren’t threads to levy blame. I’ve come in here to discuss Bruno’s role in the team. Not to say that he doesn’t help us control games because he’s too lazy, has the wrong agent, has an attitude problem or blue hair. I haven’t blamed him. Whose fault it is is not my point. The issue is that we don’t have enough bodies in the middle of the park IMO. And as I’ve said - I’ve mentioned that more than enough in many a thread about ‘our midfield’ - and also referenced Matic’s role in the structure (many times) in that he spends most of his time in the back line and not in the middle. And now I’m mentioning it in a Bruno thread, but you seem to find it odd as it seemingly has no relation to him at all.

I get a feeling you are playing sort of victim card, I said your post would fit well in Ole's thread as it's tactical, you can't blame players for taking risks which his manager wants them to take.

There is nothing odd, what's odd thing is you coming up with "he should sacrifice his 20 goals to striker" as if he has any say in that or as if he sets up the team to play that way.

 

[Mainoldo]

The team isn't benefiting from the tactics and it has nothing to do with Bruno.

It has when he is given the free role.

 

[roonster09]

It has when he is given the free role.

No.

 

[Rozay]

I get a feeling you are playing sort of victim card, I said your post would fit well in Ole's thread as it's tactical, you can't blame players for taking risks which his manager wants them to take.

There is nothing odd, what's odd thing is you coming up with "he should sacrifice his 20 goals to striker" as if he has any say in that or as if he sets up the team to play that way.

It’s ironic as it is you who is playing such a card, taking what I am saying as some sort of personal affront to Bruno, when it isn’t.

And you have, subtly and cleverly mixed my words. I didn’t say ‘he should sacrifice his 20 goals to a striker’. I said I’d even have no issue with him scoring less goals if it meant x,y and z - and that I think we’d be better served as a team if one of the strikers got his 30 goals instead, even if it meant he got less, but we had greater midfield control instead. You have, again ironically, taken a victim position on behalf of Bruno as a result.

Nobody is saying he chooses our tactics. I’m talking about his role in our team. If it makes you feel better, anytime I want to say ‘I think he played too far forward today’, I will add ‘because Ole told him to’. It’s irrelevant, or at least only relevant if the basis of my point was that he is disobeying instruction by playing too far forward. Which it isn’t. The point is about where he is playing. And he is the one playing there, not Ole. If in discussing potential solutions to this perceived problem, we want to pose the suggestion that Ole tweaks his tactics, then that is fine, and a natural order of discussion. But to be confused as to why it is even being mentioned in relation to the player is a little ridiculous.

Next time one of our poorer players plays poorly, I’ll go straight to the Ole thread to criticise him for picking him, as opposed to commenting in the player’s!

Or if Ole deploys a tactic which sees Maguire randomly floating into the 10 role and getting caught out of position - nobody should mention in Maguire’s thread that ‘he spent too much time in the 10 role and was repeatedly caught out of position’?

 

[roonster09]

It’s ironic as it is you who is playing such a card, taking what I am saying as some sort of personal affront to Bruno, when it isn’t.

And you have, subtly and cleverly mixed my words. I didn’t say ‘he should sacrifice his 20 goals to a striker’. I said I’d even have no issue with him scoring less goals if it meant x,y and z - and that I think we’d be better served as a team if one of the strikers got his 30 goals instead, even if it meant he got less, but we had greater midfield control instead. You have, again ironically, taken a victim position on behalf of Bruno as a result. Nobody is saying he chooses our tactics. I’m talking about his role in our team. If it makes you feel better, anytime I want to say ‘I think he played too far forward today’, I will add ‘because Ole told him too’. It’s irrelevant, or at least only relevant if the basis of my point was that he is disobeying instruction by playing too far forward. Which it isn’t. The point is about where he is playing. And he is the one playing there, not Ole.

Next time one of our poorer players plays poorly, I’ll go straight to the Ole thread to criticise him for picking him, as opposed to commenting in the player’s!

Well done on ignoring what Ole said and keep repeating the same thing. It's hilarious you talk about mixing words when your post is full of that.

I didnt talk about any player position, I talked about why we don't retain possession and that's as a team. I even posted Ole's interview where he said how he wants his team to play and that's exactly how we are playing minus pressing. Somehow you ignore all that and try to pin that on one player or just on midfield.

 

[Rozay]

Well done on ignoring what Ole said and keep repeating the same thing. It's hilarious you talk about mixing words when your post is full of that.

I didnt talk about any player position, I talked about why we don't retain possession and that's as a team.

We’re going round in circles. Nobody is disagreeing that the issue is tactical, but you seem to have a problem with anyone discussing how those said tactics relate to Bruno’s role in the team. Which is again, ridiculous. And precious.

I’ll repeat. Your point is ONLY relevant if I was saying that ‘Bruno is disobeying tactical advice by playing as he does’. But I’m not, am I? Nobody is mixing any words over here. I don’t like the structure of the team. I don’t give a flying feck, for the sake of this particular conversation, of what instructions were provided. Nobody is disputing the instructions. We’re talking about the players. If it makes you feel better, I don’t like the way OLE’S INSTRUCTIONS relate to Bruno, so I am oddly, talking about it in the conversation about Bruno. Shock horror.

 

[roonster09]

We’re going round in circles. Nobody is disagreeing that the issue is tactical, but you seem to have a problem with anyone discussing how those said tactics relate to Bruno’s role in the team. Which is again, ridiculous. And precious.

I’ll repeat. Your point is ONLY relevant if I was saying that ‘Bruno is disobeying tactical advice by playing as he does’. But I’m not, am I? Nobody is mixing any words over here. I don’t like the structure of the team. I don’t give a flying feck, for the sake of this particular conversation, of what instructions were provided. Nobody is disputing the instructions. We’re talking about the players. If it makes you feel better, I don’t like the way OLE’S INSTRUCTIONS relate to Bruno, so I am oddly, talking about it in the conversation about Bruno. Shock horror.

Don't even call anyone precious, it's actually ironic and hilarious too coming from Pogba's mum.

If Bruno wasn't playing, would we play in the way you wanted to? How can we control possession, game and play in your dream way when coach himself doesn't want to play that way.

It has nothing to do with instructions to Bruno FFS. It's the team, how hard is it to understand. We don't play possession football, we are not set up to dominate games vs strong teams.

When was the last time we set up to dominate strong teams since Van Gaal was sacked? Dont even bother to check, it's 0.

We hire Poch, Pep, Klopp or someone like them who sets up to play dominating football and this won't be an issue.

Just FYI, I disagreed with everyone who pins this on players, not just Bruno. I did the same when Pogba was getting same shit and I'm doing the same now.

Also I said "your post should be in Ole thread" in a good way as it was about tactical set up. It's hilarious that you know it's tactical and somehow try to pin that on individual players.

 

[Rozay]

Don't even call anyone precious, it's actually ironic and hilarious too coming from Pogba's mum.

If Bruno wasn't playing, would we play in the way you wanted to? How can we control possession, game and play in your dream way when coach himself doesn't want to play that way.

It has nothing to do with instructions to Bruno FFS. It's the team, how hard is it to understand. We don't play possession football, we are not set up to dominate games vs strong teams.

When was the last time we set up to dominate strong teams since Van Gaal was sacked? Dont even bother to check, it's 0.

We hire Poch, Pep, Klopp or someone like them who sets up to play dominating football and this won't be an issue.

Just FYI, I disagreed with everyone who pins this on players, not just Bruno. I did the same when Pogba was getting same shit and I'm doing the same now.

Also I said "your post should be in Ole thread" in a good way as it was about tactical set up. It's hilarious that you know it's tactical and somehow try to pin that on individual players.

What’s hilarious is your usage of ‘pin’ in the first place. You seem to have a problem with anyone discussing any tactical issues in relation to our players directly. I said, did I not, that this isn’t a blame game.

We had an entire thread on how Matic is spending his time in defensive thirds. I’ll discuss my views on Bruno’s role in a Bruno thread, tactical, technical, attitude, hairstyle or otherwise.

I don’t need you to point out that you have also defended other players, I’m not here accusing you of being ‘Bruno’s Mum’. You can defend which ever player you see fit to defend, I’m not playing any ‘this side or that side’ with you or anyone else. I don’t have any desire to label any poster as part of any camp. Regarding Pogba - I couldn’t care less even if he were to leave us tomorrow. Provided we replace him with similar quality. Because he’s a good player. But I’m not so full of rage for one of our own players that I want him to leave at all costs even if it means an inferior player, like many are.

 

[roonster09]

What’s hilarious is your usage of ‘pin’ in the first place. You seem to have a problem with anyone discussing any tactical issues in relation to our players directly. I said, did I not, that this isn’t a blame game.

We had an entire thread on how Matic is spending his time in defensive thirds. I’ll discuss my views on Bruno’s role in a Bruno thread, tactical, technical, attitude, hairstyle or otherwise.

I don’t need you to point out that you have also defended other players, I’m not here accusing you of being ‘Bruno’s Mum’. You can defend which ever player you see fit to defend, I’m not playing any ‘this side or that side’ with you or anyone else. I don’t have any desire to label any poster as part of any camp. Regarding Pogba - I couldn’t care less even if he were to leave us tomorrow. Provided we replace him with similar quality. Because he’s a good player. But I’m not so full of rage for one of our own players that I want him to leave at all costs even if it means an inferior player, like many are.

A midfielder/attacking midfielder who has 35 G+A by the first week in March could never be the problem. If we are conceding too many or don’t have control, the other midfielders need to sort it out.

Let's see the consistency in your argument.

 

[Rozay]

A midfielder/attacking midfielder who has 35 G+A by the first week in March could never be the problem. If we are conceding too many or don’t have control, the other midfielders need to sort it out.

Let's see the consistency in your argument.

You have already seen it, given I haven’t changed it. The issue is that you have seen it, but haven’t ‘seen’ it.

 

[roonster09]

You have already seen it, given I haven’t changed it. The issue is that you have seen it, but haven’t ‘seen’ it.

So is there a tactical issue related to Bruno or a midfielder/attacking midfielder with 35g+a by first week of March can never be the problem?

 

[united for life]

Just read that he tested positive for covid. Hope he gets well soon; we’ll have to manage without him for a while now

 

[Jacky Quacky]

Just read that he tested positive for covid. Hope he gets well soon; we’ll have to manage without him for a while now

Gotta link what you found.

 

[Dembeza]

I feel for him out there, the guy needs a rest, Ole has ran him to the ground by playing him every minute.

 

[Lassitude42]

Poor today, Largely anonymous and wasteful.

 

[Zoo]

Does look burnt out and over-burdened after carrying us for a year or so. Ole was so stupid starting him against Sociedad.

 

[FrankDrebin]

I think it says it all when even he couldn't be fecking arsed.

 

[Jeppers7]

Absolutely shite....yet again

 

[Devil may care]

He looks frustrated and tired on the ball.

 

[Heinzesight]

Terrible from the first whistle. Needs a rest but he’s the only cnut out there that could perhaps pull something out of his arse.

 

[Classical Mechanic]

Awful.

 

[lost7]

I think it says it all when even he couldn't be fecking arsed.

I disagree, he was still making sprints throughout the game. But I think seeing the dread around him would destroy everyone's desire. I'm terrified of him leaving us if we don't turn a corner because he deserves better than this

 

[Shane88]

Completely burnt out.

No rest for him coming up. No rest for him in the summer with the Euros. Be prepared for these performances to become the norm.

 

[Red & White]

He was appalling.

 

[FrankDrebin]

I disagree, he was still making sprints throughout the game. But I think seeing the dread around him would destroy everyone's desire. I'm terrified of him leaving us if we don't turn a corner because he deserves better than this

He wont leave because no one could afford him in this climate.

 

[sullydnl]

Looks jaded.

 

[FrankDrebin]

There have been periods this season where he could've been rested yet Ole just continues to persist with him even in games where his starting role isn't necessarily needed.

 

[kundalini]

Terrible performance. Lost the ball cheaply several times in the first half.

 

[Womp]

He has been ran into the ground and the only way we win football matches is him pulling some shite out of his arse. The fact that he's been as productive as he has been despite how fecking shite we are collectively is unbelievable.

 

[A-man]

Completely burnt out.

No rest for him coming up. No rest for him in the summer with the Euros. Be prepared for these performances to become the norm.

What makes you think he is “completely burnt out”? Why not just having poor games? I’m asking because it’s like he can’t have poor games without the reason of being burnt out.