[Rozay]

Why not? KdB averaged 75-78% pass completion before Pep took over and he never had any problems playing for Pep.

KdB also topped the stats for most possession stats for most of the seasons he wasn't injured, still never saw anyone saying he can't play for Pep. It's all about how the team is set up. If everyone is making the runs, available for passes, in sync with each other then player wouldn't just randomly hit 50 yards passes.

No one cares about KdB's possession loss stat because of his numbers and his team winning titles (lets be honest here, his team will win title with or without KdB as they have already proved it). It's same for every player. Narrative changes based on whether they are playing for title winning team or other team who won't win titles.

I agree with that. Regarding the individual players, it’s perhaps mot an exact science. Kevin is better than Bruno in the middle third for me. Small things, the way he takes the ball and can keep City moving the way they move when he isn’t able to play a final ball. I think Bruno is close to him in the final third though. But there’s a little more to it than just passing stats. Dribbling is key too. For example, Fabregas was a fantastic passer, but many said he didn’t quite fit the Spain or Barcelona midfield. He doesn’t have the same close control.

Generally speaking, I’m a big believer in that narratives vary depending upon who wins or not, so I’m in agreement there. That said, the narrative is generally very positive about Bruno, so I don’t see it as applying in this case. Only some of the United fans are questioning things like passing. Pundits and commentators haven’t even realised it yet and instead just repeat every single game that ‘that was an uncharacteristic wayward pass from Bruno’. I suspect he’ll win PL player of the year. I’m looking at it from the perspective of what will given US the extra we need to win the league. My personal view is that we need to keep the ball better to do that. I think we’d be a better team if we transferred his 30 goals to one of out strikers, and in exchange for him reducing his own to 12 or so, we are able to impose ourselves on more teams, keep the ball better all over the pitch and sustain more attacks while reducing the amount suffered against us.

 

[kidbob]

Think the issue here is team philosophy. For me, Bruno couldn’t have played in a City or Barcelona team as he doesn’t have the qualities for it. Silva or Iniesta couldn’t replace Bruno in our team because their qualities aren’t suited to it either. We don’t keep possession well not because of Bruno in and of itself. It’s because we haven’t structured our entire team to keep possession.

As has been discussed in the FF, we play transition football, not possession football. And Bruno suits this, as do Fred and McTominay in their defence. The question we will need to answer is whether that is the right approach on the whole. But it isn’t as simple as mixing and matching IMO. Bruno suits the team that we are right now. The question for me isn’t as to Bruno’s quality, it is a question as to the team we are/want to be.

Personally, I prefer the structure of 3 proper midfielders in a 433 rather than 2 midfielders and a nominal midfielder ahead of them. I’m aware that that would result in a lower goal tally per individual, and I personally wouldn’t mind that, so long as the entire unit worked better as a result, including those who are primarily supposed to score goals are doing so consistently. On another day, the pen is given and Bruno may have scored today and we win 1-0. But Mason Mount, who was his opposite number, would have ‘played better’ in my eyes, comparing the performances of the two. Mount will never put up the same numbers though, and different coaches will have their preferences there. For me, I’d like us to be structurally set up to control games and create chances from all angles rather than waiting for moments from individuals.

Good post and I do agree in some ways but I'm not sure I agree with the fact that Bruno suits one style or even that we suit him fully now, its conjecture though consisering we have only seen him in this style.

Take the 2 midfielders for example. I, like you, would rather a 3 but the thing is that we are not exactly playing this system with the best players for it. Lets say Bruno is one of the best at what he does, but Fred and McTominay aren't (both good, but squad players in a truly top team for me) and they aren't really balanced either. Now if you give me a top DM like Veratti playing next to a top box to box player (I don't have any current examples) and put Bruno in front of them then I think you bring another level out of Bruno. Yes he still loses the ball a lot but the difference is that the other midfielders in the team don't. Today our problem wasn't just Bruno being careless it was the fact that Fred and McTominay gave it away just as much and they tend to do so. That is what they are like as players, just as Bruno is. Now you put two players behind him who keep the ball better then in theory today we only have Bruno carelessly losing the ball out of the midfield 3. I think Bruno has shown that he is more than worth being the guy who loses the ball because his output is so good and that that means that we need to focus on getting players that don't behind him in centre mid. I think our possession problems stem from other places than Bruno overall.

As for the City and Barca thing, I honestly think that he'd shine there too because think of how little of the ball he seen today and compare that to how much of it he'd see playing for City against Chelsea. The thing is that even if Bruno lost the ball loads for City they still have the players around him to dominate possession anyway. He'd see loads of the ball and as he has shown that means goals and assists.

He'll never be a Mount (a very good player in my opinion) I agree but it doesn't mean he can't play in a possession team and be even better. The fact is that he doesn't play in one now, not because of himself but because of the abilities of those around him for me.

So I agree that with you that I'd rather us to be much more team orientated but I would still believe that Bruno would actually shine more in that system rather than be a hindrance. He'd simply be the magician that every well oiled machine needs rather than a magician in a broken system.

 

[Rozay]

Good post and I do agree in some ways but I'm not sure I agree with the fact that Bruno suits one style or even that we suit him fully now, its conjecture though consisering we have only seen him in this style.

Take the 2 midfielders for example. I, like you, would rather a 3 but the thing is that we are not exactly playing this system with the best players for it. Lets say Bruno is one of the best at what he does, but Fred and McTominay aren't (both good, but squad players in a truly top team for me) and they aren't really balanced either. Now if you give me a top DM like Veratti playing next to a top box to box player (I don't have any current examples) and put Bruno in front of them then I think you bring another level out of Bruno. Yes he still loses the ball a lot but the difference is that the other midfielders in the team don't. Today our problem wasn't just Bruno being careless it was the fact that Fred and McTominay gave it away just as much and they tend to do so. That is what they are like as players, just as Bruno is. Now you put two players behind him who keep the ball better then in theory today we only have Bruno carelessly losing the ball out of the midfield 3. I think Bruno has shown that he is more than worth being the guy who loses the ball because his output is so good and that that means that we need to focus on getting players that don't behind him in centre mid. I think our possession problems stem from other places than Bruno overall.

As for the City and Barca thing, I honestly think that he'd shine there too because think of how little of the ball he seen today and compare that to how much of it he'd see playing for City against Chelsea. The thing is that even if Bruno lost the ball loads for City they still have the players around him to dominate possession anyway. He'd see loads of the ball and as he has shown that means goals and assists.

He'll never be a Mount (a very good player in my opinion) I agree but it doesn't mean he can't play in a possession team and be even better. The fact is that he doesn't play in one now, not because of himself but because of the abilities of those around him for me.

So I agree that with you that I'd rather us to be much more team orientated but I would still believe that Bruno would actually shine more in that system rather than be a hindrance. He'd simply be the magician that every well oiled machine needs rather than a magician in a broken system.

Yea, I think that’s a fair way to look at it. Ultimately, it is basically being somewhere in between a possession team and a transition one. We can have a similar style that we have, while keeping the ball better as a team.

I’d still prefer a 3, just because you will come up against a 3 more often than not. James Rodriguez is a traditional 10, and better at keeping possession than Bruno I’d say, but nominally starts from the right, for example - to allow 3 proper midfielders in the team. Grealish is similar, from the left.

Part of the reason we don’t keep possession well enough for me is down to simple numbers. We don’t have enough bodies in central areas. Barcelona wouldn’t be the same team with Xavi and Iniesta in a 442. Busquets is right in there with them, and Messi drops in there too, which allows them to control possession. At City, they have 3 midfielders plus Cancelo inside. You can’t possibly dominate possession in today’s game with two in the middle. I said in another thread recently that we can still control it better with our current group including Bruno if we did something similar to City and dropped Shaw inside at times, which would suit him well. As it is, we don’t have enough. When we play Matic it’s even worse, as Bruno is upfront and Matic seems to want to be a centre half - and typically Pogba is in the centre circle with no teammates within 20 yards! Obviously I haven’t measured, but by an eye test, it looks to me that our average passes are longer than other top teams. And that isn’t even ‘long balls’. I mean just central midfield passes. They all seem to be about 20 yards. I think to control possession, you need more between 5 and 10 yards. But we’re just not compact enough to have passing options that close in midfield. By default, trying to pass a ball 15-20 yards in the middle of the park will have a higher chance of being wayward or simply intercepted.

 

[kidbob]

Yea, I think that’s a fair way to look at it. Ultimately, it is basically being somewhere in between a possession team and a transition one. We can have a similar style that we have, while keeping the ball better as a team.

I’d still prefer a 3, just because you will come up against a 3 more often than not. James Rodriguez is a traditional 10, and better at keeping possession than Bruno I’d say, but nominally starts from the right, for example - to allow 3 proper midfielders in the team. Grealish is similar, from the left.

Part of the reason we don’t keep possession well enough for me is down to simple numbers. We don’t have enough bodies in central areas. Barcelona wouldn’t be the same team with Xavi and Iniesta in a 442. Busquets is right in there with them, and Messi drops in there too, which allows them to control possession. At City, they have 3 midfielders plus Cancelo inside. You can’t possibly dominate possession in today’s game with two in the middle. I said in another thread recently that we can still control it better with our current group including Bruno if we did something similar to City and dropped Shaw inside at times, which would suit him well. As it is, we don’t have enough. When we play Matic it’s even worse, as Bruno is upfront and Matic seems to want to be a centre half - and typically Pogba is in the centre circle with no teammates within 20 yards! Obviously I haven’t measured, but by an eye test, it looks to me that our average passes are longer than other top teams. And that isn’t even ‘long balls’. I mean just central midfield passes. They all seem to be about 20 yards. I think to control possession, you need more between 5 and 10 yards. But we’re just not compact enough to have passing options that close in midfield. By default, trying to pass a ball 15-20 yards in the middle of the park will have a higher chance of being wayward or simply intercepted.

Yeah I definitely can't argue with any of that, especially the Pogba and Matic part!

 

[Vidyoyo]

Vividly remember him annoying me at one point today.

Shaw had just absolutely bombed down the line to get to on the end of a long ball and just about stopped it going out for a goal kick. He plays it back to Bruno who took it into a poor area, inviting pressure and then tries to played this cute little through ball again to Shaw, which went out for a throw-in killing the attack dead. He then looked visibly annoyed at Shaw.

I get the idea but it seemed like the complete wrong option to try and play Shaw in again.

He was shit today

Don't like it when he complains on team mates after he was the one who fecked up a pass. Did it to Shaw some time during first half.

Just saw this after going back a page. I think we're talking about the same one.

 

[Red00012]

Those 45 mins Thursday night worked a treat today

 

[AKDevil]

Nothing wrong with a flat track bully IMO. Every game is worth 3 points ‘big games’ are more for fans and storyline like WWE fights.

My only issue here is that Bruno is supposedly not a striker. I don’t understand the concept of a flat track bully midfielder. For me, goals isn’t the metric I use to judge midfielders. It’s what I use for strikers, and I don’t mind a forward who puts most teams away and is more sporadic against top teams.

I’m more concerned with Bruno’s regular game once goals are removed altogether personally. That’s where I actually judge him as a midfielder in the first place. If he excelled in all of those areas consistently, and only got 8 goals a season, I’d have no problem with it. If the team struggled to get enough goals as a result, I’d be holding the three in front of him accountable.

Like, Maguire is a centre half who is strong in the air to the point where goals are expected from him. However, I think it would be ridiculous to call him a flat track bully and say his goals haven’t come against the big sides. He needs to defend first and foremost, although of course, you want goals from him. But if he’s defending brilliantly, he’s doing well.

agree. There are more games in a season against ‘Flat track’ opposition. If he delivers consistently enough in those, and puts up numbers like he has done in the last year, zero complaints from me.

EDIT - sorry, didn’t read the whole post. It’s not purely the goals, it’s his contribution to us winning games as an attacking midfielder. He does that.

 

[TMDaines]

As much as people talk about Bruno being an all-time great signing who has made an unparalleled difference at United, after 26 games last season (so after Bruno’s second league game also at Chelsea), United had more xPts (46.37) last season than they do this season (43.99) at the same stage.

I’m starting to get a bit frustrated at the disconnect in the narrative, as Bruno’s impact appears to be more self-serving than actually one benefitting United. Bruno winning player of the year awards, whilst United win feck all, would be a perfect summary of the situation.

I’m struggling to see the progression in United this season. It seems to just be more the case that the penalty goals have been shifted from Rashford to Bruno, and the open play goals have gone from Mason and Martial to Bruno and Rashford. I really don’t think we are a better side.

A second place league finish could be as damning as it was under Mourinho, as the club would have done little on the field to merit it and a false sense of progression will again set in.

 

[He'sRaldo]

Nothing wrong with a flat track bully IMO. Every game is worth 3 points ‘big games’ are more for fans and storyline like WWE fights.

My only issue here is that Bruno is supposedly not a striker. I don’t understand the concept of a flat track bully midfielder. For me, goals isn’t the metric I use to judge midfielders. It’s what I use for strikers, and I don’t mind a forward who puts most teams away and is more sporadic against top teams.

I’m more concerned with Bruno’s regular game once goals are removed altogether personally. That’s where I actually judge him as a midfielder in the first place. If he excelled in all of those areas consistently, and only got 8 goals a season, I’d have no problem with it. If the team struggled to get enough goals as a result, I’d be holding the three in front of him accountable.

Like, Maguire is a centre half who is strong in the air to the point where goals are expected from him. However, I think it would be ridiculous to call him a flat track bully and say his goals haven’t come against the big sides. He needs to defend first and foremost, although of course, you want goals from him. But if he’s defending brilliantly, he’s doing well.

I keep saying it but he's not a midfielder.

He reminds me of Marco Reus in the 18/19 season, when he was one of the top no. 10's in the world as a 2nd striker. Admittedly Reus has much better technique, buildup play and decision making, but they stylistically they both played similarly, and I wouldn't class either as midfielders.

With that said, you're right that Bruno does need to tighten up regardless of his role because it does affect us negatively. He has improved in that aspect the past few weeks, but in the big games where there's less space he still struggles with it.

 

[The Oracle]

I think he is mentally weak.

What I mean by that is he chokes in the big games.

Thought he was rotten today.

The amount of times he gave the ball away was beyond ridiculous.

 

[MattofManchester]

Of a the people you can look at for blame, from the manager to Rashford to Martial and the midfield, a lot have chosen to single him out for criticism.
The guy who is more or less carrying us since he arrived.

The problem with these big games is that the pressure is entirely piled on him to deliver and he knows that. I think the weight of expectation gets to him.

People who call him a flat track bully seem to fail to remember how incredible he was in his first derby against City, or him scoring the winner against Liverpool.

Our tactics against are damaging to our forward line as they get no support from the midfield, in which case Bruno and the wide players get isolated. That's why we always end up passing back to the defence.

There are a few moments where he should be doing better, but I think the sheer pressure of how important that single moment is gets to him.

 

[eire-red]

Was tightly marked by Kante for the majority of the game, but the quality was strangely lacking for the few chances he did have to find the killer pass.

Thought he could have dropped deeper at times to help wrestle control of the game when Chelsea we're dominating at the start of the second half.

While his numbers clearly show why he is told to play high up the pitch, I think when McTominay and Fred play he needs to get closer to them.

 

[MadMike]

Of a the people you can look at for blame, from the manager to Rashford to Martial and the midfield, a lot have chosen to single him out for criticism.

Not really, that’s a straw man. The people who are criticising him are also laying into the rest of the attackers. Rashford and Greenwood are getting even more flack and best not to delve into Martial’s thread if you think Bruno is getting it rough.

And because he’s carrying our reason that doesn’t mean we shouldn’t point out when he’s having a stinker. Doesn’t mean we are underestimating his impact on this team.

 

[lex talionis]

Clear as day we’ve run Bruno into the ground.

 

[MattofManchester]

Not really, that’s a straw man. The people who are criticising him are also laying into the rest of the attackers. Rashford and Greenwood are getting even more flack and best not to delve into Martial’s thread if you think Bruno is getting it rough.

And because he’s carrying our reason that doesn’t mean we shouldn’t point out when he’s having a stinker. Doesn’t mean we are underestimating his impact on this team.

The point I was making is that the poor performances are not solely down to him. It is the way we play that isolates the front line from the rest of the team, which creates more pressure in the big moments, as the lack of chances means every chance we do get is treated as the most golden opportunity.
This puts much more added pressure on our forward players, which I think is why they end up fecking up the basics.
Our entire front line is guilty of it.

 

[MadMike]

The point I was making is that the poor performances are not solely down to him. It is the way we play that isolates the front line from the rest of the team, which creates more pressure in the big moments, as the lack of chances means every chance we do get is treated as the most golden opportunity.
This puts much more added pressure on our forward players, which I think is why they end up fecking up the basics.
Our entire front line is guilty of it.

Yeah I agree with that. We are playing counter attacking football after all and that does mean we won’t have much of the ball and a big deal will be made of the quality of the final ball in our few counter attacks.

I’m just pointing out that he’s not being singled out for criticism and also that criticism of him isn’t unfair. It’s not that we expect him to pick a keyhole with every pass, or win every game with a goal out of nothing (like he so many times has done) but for a player of his calibre he does mess up a lot of simple 6-yard passes. It’s alright to have a moan about that IMO.

 

[bosnian_red]

I keep saying it but he's not a midfielder.

He reminds me of Marco Reus in the 18/19 season, when he was one of the top no. 10's in the world as a 2nd striker. Admittedly Reus has much better technique, buildup play and decision making, but they stylistically they both played similarly, and I wouldn't class either as midfielders.

With that said, you're right that Bruno does need to tighten up regardless of his role because it does affect us negatively. He has improved in that aspect the past few weeks, but in the big games where there's less space he still struggles with it.

He's naturally more of a midfielder, but we use him as a second striker/#10 like Rooney really.

 

[Shane88]

Clear as day we’ve run Bruno into the ground.

No rest in sight for him either.

Palace, City, Milan, West Ham, Milan, Leicester. He's needed for all of them.

 

[kouroux]

Our top scorer last season and player of the year

Last season being the big difference. Bruno has been providing much more consistently since his arrival. Martial has been shit this season, not even his biggest fans can deny that

 

[roonster09]

I agree with that. Regarding the individual players, it’s perhaps mot an exact science. Kevin is better than Bruno in the middle third for me. Small things, the way he takes the ball and can keep City moving the way they move when he isn’t able to play a final ball. I think Bruno is close to him in the final third though. But there’s a little more to it than just passing stats. Dribbling is key too. For example, Fabregas was a fantastic passer, but many said he didn’t quite fit the Spain or Barcelona midfield. He doesn’t have the same close control.

Generally speaking, I’m a big believer in that narratives vary depending upon who wins or not, so I’m in agreement there. That said, the narrative is generally very positive about Bruno, so I don’t see it as applying in this case. Only some of the United fans are questioning things like passing. Pundits and commentators haven’t even realised it yet and instead just repeat every single game that ‘that was an uncharacteristic wayward pass from Bruno’. I suspect he’ll win PL player of the year. I’m looking at it from the perspective of what will given US the extra we need to win the league. My personal view is that we need to keep the ball better to do that. I think we’d be a better team if we transferred his 30 goals to one of out strikers, and in exchange for him reducing his own to 12 or so, we are able to impose ourselves on more teams, keep the ball better all over the pitch and sustain more attacks while reducing the amount suffered against us.

De Bruyne moves the ball when he can't play final ball as the team plays in a very structured way, they all move in sync. We don't play that in that way at all.

I agree Bruno has positive narrative around him.

Also re bold part, how can he do that when we are not set up to play possession football? He retains possession, passes it to McTominay, Fred, circulates possession moving side by side and then end up playing Bruno again. We do that until someone like Bruno takes the risk. When Bruno is in free space or next to the player, they just pass the ball to him even though they have good enough opportunity to play better passes to players in better position. We don't do that as we rely on Bruno too much. If Bruno can trade all his goals for wins, he will be more than happy to do that. It's on coach to set up team like that.

Edit: Difference between KdB and Bruno is around 3-4 inaccurate passes per game, that's insignificant.

Yes KdB is better dribbler but there are so many stats (for both midfield and defensive) where Bruno did better than KdB.

I have said it many times, I will repeat it again, people using pass completion percentage without giving any real thought about it. They just see percentages instead of brining that to just a proper number. Player completing 2/4 passes will have 50% completion, players B who completes 3/4 will have 75% possession. You can use percentage and tell that there is 25% difference to make it sound lot worse or bring that number into actual number of passes and see how many more passes player A misplaced compared to B and that would be just 1.

On an average player plays around 50-60 passes, so higher 70s and lower 80s pass completion percentage is nothing when compared with actual number of misplaced passes.

	Bruno	KdB
Passes/90	61.5​	54.8​
Inaccurate passes/90	14​	10​
Possession loss (Unsuccesful touches + Tacjkled)	2.5​	3.4​
Tackles attempted	3.8​	3​
Tackles won	1.8​	1.7​
Interceptions	0.8​	0.5​
Pressures	477​	260​
Pressures per 90	19.5​	14.9​

 

[Eternitiy]

Vividly remember him annoying me at one point today.

Shaw had just absolutely bombed down the line to get to on the end of a long ball and just about stopped it going out for a goal kick. He plays it back to Bruno who took it into a poor area, inviting pressure and then tries to played this cute little through ball again to Shaw, which went out for a throw-in killing the attack dead. He then looked visibly annoyed at Shaw.

I get the idea but it seemed like the complete wrong option to try and play Shaw in again.



Just saw this after going back a page. I think we're talking about the same one.

Reminds me of Berbatov and Lukaku. Poor in the big games. Always blaming teammates.

 

[roonster09]

I keep saying it but he's not a midfielder.

He reminds me of Marco Reus in the 18/19 season, when he was one of the top no. 10's in the world as a 2nd striker. Admittedly Reus has much better technique, buildup play and decision making, but they stylistically they both played similarly, and I wouldn't class either as midfielders.

With that said, you're right that Bruno does need to tighten up regardless of his role because it does affect us negatively. He has improved in that aspect the past few weeks, but in the big games where there's less space he still struggles with it.

But he is midfielder. Check the heat maps, one is for the player who is considered as the best midfielder in PL and other is Bruno's.

 

[RooneyLegend]

He's naturally more of a midfielder, but we use him as a second striker/#10 like Rooney really.

Which I don't understand. This means there's no really playmaking In our side. We can't playmake through the wingers cause they are actually forwards and he plays as another forward. Don't know who's supposed to help this team play through the phases.

 

[Kweku Amonoo]

I’ve said it countless times. With the way he’s allowed to play in our team, his numbers will always be good. But will the team as a whole benefit from it? We’re finding out more and more that the team won’t.

 

[roonster09]

I’ve said it countless times. With the way he’s allowed to play in our team, his numbers will always be good. But will the team as a whole benefit from it? We’re finding out more and more that the team won’t.

How the team isn't benefitting? Is he the one who is making players to miss chances? He has created most chances in our team and second most in the league.

Did you miss our league position before Bruno was signed?

 

[Idxomer]

I think one of the problems yesterday is when he stepped into midfield he just passed it back without an aim to engage positively in the buildup.

It's something Rashford does a lot too, we depend too much on our CBs in the buildup and that shouldn't be the case.

The midfield and the forwards should take responsibility too.

 

[Mainoldo]

How the team isn't benefitting? Is he the one who is making players to miss chances? He has created most chances in our team and second most in the league.

Did you miss our league position before Bruno was signed?

He’s done a good job. Doesn’t mean he can’t be criticised. It’s not like we are league champions or something.

 

[TMDaines]

How the team isn't benefitting? Is he the one who is making players to miss chances? He has created most chances in our team and second most in the league.

Did you miss our league position before Bruno was signed?

I posted this last night, but we had more expected points last season before Bruno signed than we did after the equivalent number of games this season. This is still applicable now after 26 games; again our expected points were better last season. The underlying metrics would suggest that we are either no better than last season or possibly actually a little bit worse.

Bruno’s good season isn’t benefitting United when it is at the detriment to many other individuals in the team and the side as the whole.

The league table, and more specifically Liverpool being shit too, is massively warping people’s perspective of this season.

 

[roonster09]

I posted this last night, but we had more expected points last season before Bruno signed than we did after the equivalent number of games this season. This is still applicable now after 26 games; again our expected points were better last season. The underlying metrics would suggest that we are either no better than last season or possibly actually a little bit worse.

Bruno’s good season isn’t benefitting United when it is at the detriment to many other individuals in the team and the side as the whole.

The league table, and more specifically Liverpool being shit too, is massively warping people’s perspective of this season.

Tbh thats just nonsense, it's problem with ManUtd fans through out years. Bruno is not detriment to the team, players like Rashford, Greenwood, Martial having poor season is detriment to the team. It happened with Pogba too, when he was having good season people blamed him for not challenging for title when he was arguably our best player in those seasons.

Best player is not the problem, the poor ones or players having poor season are the problems.

 

[roonster09]

He’s done a good job. Doesn’t mean he can’t be criticised. It’s not like we are league champions or something.

Are you arguing with imaginary points?

 

[Mainoldo]

Are you arguing with imaginary points?

It was a statement not an argument.

 

[SATA]

I don’t like him pin pointing players or visibly looking annoyed when their passes don’t come off or even when his own passes were shite. It’s like he thinks he’s better than everyone else in the team. Absolutely hate seeing that. You don’t see Pogba or Marcus do that. They just move on, get back into positions and wait for the next opportunity. I get that he’s everyone’s favourite player here but he needs to cut that down

 

[roonster09]

It was a statement not an argument.

A pointless one as i never said he shouldn't be criticized.

 

[Mainoldo]

A pointless one as i never said he shouldn't be criticized.

So why bother telling people where we would be without him. Sounds like a deflection from criticism. Otherwise you’d just have stuck to what he did in yesterday’s game.

 

[roonster09]

So why bother telling people where we would be without him. Sounds like a deflection from criticism. Otherwise you’d just have stuck to what he did in yesterday’s game.

What? fecking hell do you even understand posts or post randomly whatever comes to your mind?

The post I replied to was about how team isn't benefiting from Bruno (Implying Bruno was detrimental to the team), the obvious answer is the league form since he was signed. It has nothing to do with yesterday's game.

 

[Andersons Dietician]

Vividly remember him annoying me at one point today.

Shaw had just absolutely bombed down the line to get to on the end of a long ball and just about stopped it going out for a goal kick. He plays it back to Bruno who took it into a poor area, inviting pressure and then tries to played this cute little through ball again to Shaw, which went out for a throw-in killing the attack dead. He then looked visibly annoyed at Shaw.

I get the idea but it seemed like the complete wrong option to try and play Shaw in again.



Just saw this after going back a page. I think we're talking about the same one.

Not to defend him as it does annoy me when people are playing turd and yet start having a go at others when there own play isn’t any better.

If we are thinking about the same moment was he not having a go at Shaw for not putting the ball in the box first time on the run. I remember Shaw chasing a ball in to space and being a little disappointed with him not putting it in first time. Given the hand gestures Bruno was throwing out I think that is what he was giving Shaw stick for.

 

[Vidyoyo]

Not to defend him as it does annoy me when people are playing turd and yet start having a go at others when there own play isn’t any better.

If we are thinking about the same moment was he not having a go at Shaw for not putting the ball in the box first time on the run. I remember Shaw chasing a ball in to space and being a little disappointed with him not putting it in first time. Given the hand gestures Bruno was throwing out I think that is what he was giving Shaw stick for.

That's probably it. I didn't think it was the easiest chance as the defender closed him down quickly but an attempted cross would have helped.

 

[Rozay]

De Bruyne moves the ball when he can't play final ball as the team plays in a very structured way, they all move in sync. We don't play that in that way at all.

I agree Bruno has positive narrative around him.

Also re bold part, how can he do that when we are not set up to play possession football? He retains possession, passes it to McTominay, Fred, circulates possession moving side by side and then end up playing Bruno again. We do that until someone like Bruno takes the risk. When Bruno is in free space or next to the player, they just pass the ball to him even though they have good enough opportunity to play better passes to players in better position. We don't do that as we rely on Bruno too much. If Bruno can trade all his goals for wins, he will be more than happy to do that. It's on coach to set up team like that.

Edit: Difference between KdB and Bruno is around 3-4 inaccurate passes per game, that's insignificant.

Yes KdB is better dribbler but there are so many stats (for both midfield and defensive) where Bruno did better than KdB.

I have said it many times, I will repeat it again, people using pass completion percentage without giving any real thought about it. They just see percentages instead of brining that to just a proper number. Player completing 2/4 passes will have 50% completion, players B who completes 3/4 will have 75% possession. You can use percentage and tell that there is 25% difference to make it sound lot worse or bring that number into actual number of passes and see how many more passes player A misplaced compared to B and that would be just 1.

On an average player plays around 50-60 passes, so higher 70s and lower 80s pass completion percentage is nothing when compared with actual number of misplaced passes.

	Bruno	KdB
Passes/90	61.5​	54.8​
Inaccurate passes/90	14​	10​
Possession loss (Unsuccesful touches + Tacjkled)	2.5​	3.4​
Tackles attempted	3.8​	3​
Tackles won	1.8​	1.7​
Interceptions	0.8​	0.5​
Pressures	477​	260​
Pressures per 90	19.5​	14.9​

This isn’t a blame game for me, whether Bruno or Ole or whoever is at ‘fault’ isn’t really my point. My issue is that I think it is holding us back from going up a level as a team.

I feel like our model or team structure requires us to have the very best players in the world everywhere. This is where this debate of ‘patterns of play vs individual brilliance’ comes into it. If we rely upon individual brilliance, then we need the most brilliant individuals everywhere, which is why we always feel like we need more in the transfer forum. There doesn’t seem to be any extra we gain from the structure and cohesion of the unit. All that we have is because Bruno, Rashford, Pogba, Martial etc sometimes do things, because they are good players. However, they are not doing enough things for us to be first, so now we need to go and get better ones. It’s the only way we can win.

My particular focus on Bruno here is because the way I see the game, knitting the play together is the fundamental role of the #10. I expect them to move all around the pitch, making themselves available for a series of 5 yard passes, one-touch passes so that as a unit, we can move more fluidly. I don’t think in and of itself, our inability to do this is because Scott and Fred are not great. If they had that short pass on, they would use it. It’s how I see Silva play the role for instance, and due to his close control, dribbling/press resistance and perpetual motion - it made City very hard to take the ball off.

I don’t think this is a Bruno problem in terms of him simply not being good enough. I mean, I do feel there are better suited 10s to this, but still, we can cross that bridge when we a least sort out the structure. Someone like Grealish is suited to this type of set up more.

For me - the issue is that either Ole has instructed Bruno to concentrate on being decisive and take up the areas to do so, or that Bruno himself is driven by a desire to be decisive and takes up areas where he fan affect the scoreline. Whoever’s fault it is isn’t my point. The point is more that to le, the problem exists. We simply cannot play with two midfielders and expect anything other than this, to quote the great Paul Merson - ‘you ‘ave a shot, we ‘ave a shot’ football that the majority of our games descend into, whether we are playing Chelsea, Sheffield United, Fulham or West Brom. I don’t like it, I don’t like the odds and I see it as percentage footy. I’m not saying we have to pass sideways all game either, but the balance needs to be far better than it is.

Personally, I didn’t want us to sign Bruno not because I don’t rate him (although at the time I also thought he was not as good a player as he has turned out to be) - but more because, and I kept saying at the time, that I wanted us to go after a ‘proper midfielder’ instead. My personal vision was for a 433 with a double 8 and a 6. A Herrera replacement if you like, who would go along with Pogba and infront of Fred or Scott. Someone like Saúl or Barella were my dream signings, as I feel that the team need 3 midfielders to control games. I agree that we also need better midfielders than a Fred/Scott pairing - and I’d have less of an issue if Bruno himself just played 10/15 yards further back. He and Pogba played near enough alongside each other against Sevilla last season, and we were brilliant. We controlled the game and created several chances, which the likes of Martial and Rashford couldn’t take, against quality opposition too.

 

[roonster09]

This isn’t a blame game for me, whether Bruno or Ole or whoever is at ‘fault’ isn’t really my point. My issue is that I think it is holding us back from going up a level as a team.

I feel like our model or team structure requires us to have the very best players in the world everywhere. This is where this debate of ‘patterns of play vs individual brilliance’ comes into it. If we rely upon individual brilliance, then we need the most brilliant individuals everywhere, which is why we always feel like we need more in the transfer forum. There doesn’t seem to be any extra we gain from the structure and cohesion of the unit. All that we have is because Bruno, Rashford, Pogba, Martial etc sometimes do things, because they are good players. However, they are not doing enough things for us to be first, so now we need to go and get better ones. It’s the only way we can win.

My particular focus on Bruno here is because the way I see the game, knitting the play together is the fundamental role of the #10. I expect them to move all around the pitch, making themselves available for a series of 5 yard passes, one-touch passes so that as a unit, we can move more fluidly. I don’t think in and of itself, our inability to do this is because Scott and Fred are not great. If they had that short pass on, they would use it. It’s how I see Silva play the role for instance, and due to his close control, dribbling/press resistance and perpetual motion - it made City very hard to take the ball off.

I don’t think this is a Bruno problem in terms of him simply not being good enough. I mean, I do feel there are better suited 10s to this, but still, we can cross that bridge when we a least sort out the structure. Someone like Grealish is suited to this type of set up more.

For me - the issue is that either Ole has instructed Bruno to concentrate on being decisive and take up the areas to do so, or that Bruno himself is driven by a desire to be decisive and takes up areas where he fan affect the scoreline. Whoever’s fault it is isn’t my point. The point is more that to le, the problem exists. We simply cannot play with two midfielders and expect anything other than this, to quote the great Paul Merson - ‘you ‘ave a shot, we ‘ave a shot’ football that the majority of our games descend into, whether we are playing Chelsea, Sheffield United, Fulham or West Brom. I don’t like it, I don’t like the odds and I see it as percentage footy. I’m not saying we have to pass sideways all game either, but the balance needs to be far better than it is.

Personally, I didn’t want us to sign Bruno not because I don’t rate him (although at the time I also thought he was not as good a player as he has turned out to be) - but more because, and I kept saying at the time, that I wanted us to go after a ‘proper midfielder’ instead. My personal vision was for a 433 with a double 8 and a 6. A Herrera replacement if you like, who would go along with Pogba and infront of Fred or Scott. Someone like Saúl or Barella were my dream signings, as I feel that the team need 3 midfielders to control games. I agree that we also need better midfielders than a Fred/Scott pairing - and I’d have less of an issue if Bruno himself just played 10/15 yards further back. He and Pogba played near enough alongside each other against Sevilla last season, and we were brilliant. We controlled the game and created several chances, which the likes of Martial and Rashford couldn’t take, against quality opposition too.

It's all well and good but this post should be posted in Ole thread, not individual players. You can replace Bruno with prime Ozil and we will still be the same team.

The points you made, that #10 should be someone knitting the game together, retain possession, it won't happen just by fielding bunch of good players.

Like I said, if we had KdB instead of Bruno, people would have said the same thing. Should give up his assist for more control of the game when it's not him or Bruno who should be controlling the game.

Edit: In a way it's funny all these posts. You used to defend Pogba (I used to and still do tbh) when the criticism was him not controlling the game, creating chances, scoring goals. Expecting one player to do it all when we had such a poor system. Now it's Bruno turn and people expect a lot from one player.

 

[Mainoldo]

What? fecking hell do you even understand posts or post randomly whatever comes to your mind?

The post I replied to was about how team isn't benefiting from Bruno (Implying Bruno was detrimental to the team), the obvious answer is the league form since he was signed. It has nothing to do with yesterday's game.

The team is not benifitting from the tactics employed which mainly evolve around Bruno been given a free role.

Why is that not a discussion. Not the statistical obvious. That doesn’t bring much of a discussion. Which was my point.