Brentan Rodgers

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I think you are being rather naive here. Obviously the likes of LvG and SAF are big names but it almost always comes down to money. As KM mentioned earlier, we have lost out on big talents despite SAF at the helm and us being a really strong force in Europe. One season of poor form does not dent an image built on decades of success. I am pretty sure even now that if we go head to head with Liverpool for a top player, we will get 9/10 players.

I'm not denying that money plays an important role. My first sentence even said something to that point.

There are always multitudes of factors that a player consider when moving clubs, some more important than the others. Some players who move to clubs they think would be best for their careers (chance to win titles etc.), and there are players who move for the money. E.g Kaka at the height of his career at Milan turned down oil money offered by Man City, choosing to join Real instead while Gareth Barry choose Man City over Liverpool (of course it worked for him in the end).

Players such as Lucas Moura, Hazard, Nasri etc. joined other teams that have equal chances of wining the league.

Unfortunately for us, there is a general impression that we are on the decline after the retirement of Sir Alex, and without the carrot of European football I'm sure it would be easier for us to attract players to play for LVG, who has the track record of winning things and playing attractive football, and therefore increasing the prospect of us turning it around; than say someone like David Moyes.
 
I'm not denying that money plays an important role. My first sentence even said something to that point.

There are always multitudes of factors that a player consider when moving clubs, some more important than the others. Some players who move to clubs they think would be best for their careers (chance to win titles etc.), and there are players who move for the money. E.g Kaka at the height of his career at Milan turned down oil money offered by Man City, choosing to join Real instead while Gareth Barry choose Man City over Liverpool (of course it worked for him in the end).

Players such as Lucas Moura, Hazard, Nasri etc. joined other teams that have equal chances of wining the league.

Unfortunately for us, there is a general impression that we are on the decline after the retirement of Sir Alex, and without the carrot of European football I'm sure it would be easier for us to attract players to play for LVG, who has the track record of winning things and playing attractive football, and therefore increasing the prospect of us turning it around; than say someone like David Moyes.

I don't understand this. Losing SAF was a huge blow and everyone in world football will know that but that does not equate to a decline. As I said, this is just one season out of the top 4. Bayern has had a similar season in the not too distant past. They could still attract the big names. So can we. And that is nothing to do with our manager either. Of course having LvG would help because he is renowned and has admirers across the game, but I think we could have still attracted these names with Moyes at the helm as well.
 
Still a great manager, he'll learn (or should learn) from this year and if they keep Suarez they'll title challenge again next year imo.
 
I was thinking about that while watching the highlights. They actually thought they might score 5-6-7 against Crystal Palace. :D
Funny thing is, even if they had, it could fire City and cause them to beat Villa by 3-4 goals as well so assuming a 6-0 yesterday they'd still have had a goal difference worse by 6 or 7, so they'd need to beat Newcastle by 9 assuming City beat West Ham by 2.

Barney actually thought it was possible. It was funny.
 
I was thinking about that while watching the highlights. They actually thought they might score 5-6-7 against Crystal Palace. :D
He was waving at people and rushing people and stropping when Johnson didn't push up the entire second half. Johnson passed the ball back to Skrtel around 67mins and he went mental at him.

I am not sure how much effect Brenton had on this particular 3-3. Could probably chalk that one up as a bit of a freak. But I agree with the guy in this thread that adamant they have not had a 'plan b'. He's been bailed out by Suarez and his chancer playstyle and the flow on effect of the ridiculous amount of 'go forward' that comes with his game. It kind of reminds me of Ronaldo around 08ish when we'd just pass the ball to him every time and then back him up as he'd try and create everything on his own. It's also something that Sturridge has in him. Inconceivable amounts of greed when attacking around the area.

It takes big balls to roll the dice during a title race. Sometimes you come up snakeyes. Even more accented at the wrong times.
 
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This forum at times, jeez. First he was hailed as genius and some on here wanted him as United manager and now suddenly he is tactically clueless.

He is still young and even Fergie blew a title an year before winning it with us. Of course, the league situation now is very different from back then and it would be much harder for Liverpool to repeat this next season with Europe and other teams strengthening. Key for them would be retaining Suarez and buying a new defense mostly.
 
He's a great motivator, that's for sure. He's had this Liverpool side punching well above the weights, even if they lose it from now (and they will) it's still an excellent job to take them from mid-table to this position in a matter of mere two seasons.
 
Funny thing is, even if they had, it could fire City and cause them to beat Villa by 3-4 goals as well so assuming a 6-0 yesterday they'd still have had a goal difference worse by 6 or 7, so they'd need to beat Newcastle by 9 assuming City beat West Ham by 2.

Brendan's one step ahead of you. Realising a victory would only spur City on, he ensured a 3-3 draw to lull the bottling blues into a false sense of security. :)
 
Needs to improve his defensive tactics big time if they want to survive the group stages of the CL.
 
When Spurs were looking for a new manager post-Redknapp, I was concerned that they'd get Martinez, Rodgers or Lambert (and hoping they'd go for Moyes). I thought Lambert had got the better gig than Rodgers who I felt might have over-reached himself at Liverpool.
 
That's kind of my point. He moved to man utd cos his wage was higher, cos he was playing with better players and had a higher chance of trophies. He would have still moved whether ferguson or moyes was in charge.

Glaston thinks not.
 
Rodgers will definitely learn from this experience. It was his first ever involvement in a title race and some naivety was to be expected.

Dismissing him completely is stupid. They will be a lot more prepared the next time they are in a title race. I'm hoping that is never.
 
He's a great motivator, that's for sure. He's had this Liverpool side punching well above the weights, even if they lose it from now (and they will) it's still an excellent job to take them from mid-table to this position in a matter of mere two seasons.


Completely agree which is why I can see this bubble bursting, as it seems to have. It's one thing getting your club to kick into a purple patch, it's another completely to sustain it for the course of two or more seasons. I can see Sturridge or/and Sterling's level dropping for a while at some point amonst other players and it'll be interesting to see how they cope. Then there is questions over Suarez's future this summer.
 
Completely agree which is why I can see this bubble bursting, as it seems to have. It's one thing getting your club to kick into a purple patch, it's another completely to sustain it for the course of two or more seasons. I can see Sturridge or/and Sterling's level dropping for a while at some point amonst other players and it'll be interesting to see how they cope. Then there is questions over Suarez's future this summer.
It's why their summer is going to be complicated, and very important for their future. I doubt Sturridge and Suarez will ever again in their careers have such prolific seasons (I could be wrong, but that's my opinion), Gerrard won't recover from this season, Henderson has hit his ceiling, maybe actually exceeded it for a while (imo, again, I know Liverpool fans will disagree). There was a bit of a sense of 'alignment of the stars', a 'now or never' feel to this season, I really don't think they'll be challenging this closely again for ages. But I'm rather shit at predicting stuff at football so what do I know!
 
It's why their summer is going to be complicated, and very important for their future. I doubt Sturridge and Suarez will ever again in their careers have such prolific seasons (I could be wrong, but that's my opinion), Gerrard won't recover from this season, Henderson has hit his ceiling, maybe actually exceeded it for a while (imo, again, I know Liverpool fans will disagree). There was a bit of a sense of 'alignment of the stars', a 'now or never' feel to this season, I really don't think they'll be challenging this closely again for ages. But I'm rather shit at predicting stuff at football so what do I know!

So basically all our best players are going to get worse?

I think the opposite. We have the 2nd youngest side in the league. If anything we'll get better especially with a decent squad. The only player who might drop off is Gerrard.
 
Yeah, I think it was a 'now or never moment', as Bill said:

'There is a tide in the affairs of men,
Which taken at the flood, leads on to fortune.
Omitted, all the voyage of their life is bound in shallows and in miseries.
On such a full sea are we now afloat.
And we must take the current when it serves, or lose our ventures'.
 
first off...the season is not over yet. City have been limping.....so lets wait until Sunday.....


But if Liverpool do not win the title this season, they will find it a lot more difficult. Its simply a money game...and Chelsea and City can spend a lot more. Having said that it seems the owners will give Rodgers enough to bring in several players to strengthen for the CL assault. And yes. Rodgers would have learnt a lot from this campaign. He is a sound manager. I think they have finally found a man to succeed Paisley.
 
So basically all our best players are going to get worse?

I think the opposite. We have the 2nd youngest side in the league. If anything we'll get better especially with a decent squad. The only player who might drop off is Gerrard.

It's like only Liverpool will get better but no-one else will.

City and Chelsea in particular will be much stronger next season.
 
Even if we didn't sign anybody if we didn't have Ozil, Ramsey, Wilshere and Walcott crocked at the business end we'll be closer.
 
It's like only Liverpool will get better but no-one else will.

City and Chelsea in particular will be much stronger next season.

I was only focusing on Liverpool in that post. Why would I randomly bring up the other two teams?

City might get slightly better, but they already have top class players in most positions. The team with the biggest room for improvement out of the challengers is by far us.
 
So basically all our best players are going to get worse?

I think the opposite. We have the 2nd youngest side in the league. If anything we'll get better especially with a decent squad. The only player who might drop off is Gerrard.
Nah, I voluntarily excluded Sterling who is going to get better imo, and your whole defence is going to be revamped I guess so you'll improve on that front. I think we agree on Gerrard, I know what you guys think of Henderson (and as I said, I may very well be wrong on his account), but honestly I just don't see Suarez and Sturridge having such an exceptional season again, I don't think that's unreasonable. Other factors are going to come into play, such as teams setting up differently against you to try and stiffle them, and European football of course which will take its toll physically (and which will force Rodgers to do more squad management and maybe rest them in smaller games where they were usually scoring for fun). I'm not saying they're going to turn to shite, I was reacting to the post that talked about Liverpool punching above their weight - a comment I agree with.
 
So basically all our best players are going to get worse?

I think the opposite. We have the 2nd youngest side in the league. If anything we'll get better especially with a decent squad. The only player who might drop off is Gerrard.

It's not really a case of all your players getting worse. It's a case of it being very unlikely (IMO) that all these players will find the same form and peak at the same time like they have done this season. The "stars aligning" as has been said.

I think it took every single ounce of everything this squad had to get to this positon and I think they're all going to be absolutely drained after the World Cup. I'll be absolutely shocked if Rodgers manages to pick them all up again and get them going for the same sort of season.
 
Good. I hope the rest of the footballing world thinks like you do. I love going into the season as underdogs.

I think the front men can hit 50 a season if injuries go their way. Sterling will improve. Henderson is going to get better (his red card has been key to our downfall). Allen has been marvelous recently and if he can improve on this season then he's a brilliant option. Coutinho has had an average season, but if he can find consistency that he showed in his first 6 months then we're laughing.
 
It's not really a case of all your players getting worse. It's a case of it being very unlikely (IMO) that all these players will find the same form and peak at the same time like they have done this season. The "stars aligning" as has been said.

I think it took every single ounce of everything this squad had to get to this positon and I think they're all going to be absolutely drained after the World Cup. I'll be absolutely shocked if Rodgers manages to pick them all up again and get them going for the same sort of season.

This has been going on for 1.5 seasons now. We've had excellent form since January of last year. It isn't a blip and it isn't everything going our way.
 
To declare Liverpool's season as some kind of star alignment is doing them a huge disservice.

I see it like this: essentially, they have a relatively imbalanced side which is clearly better in the forward positions than elsewhere. Rodgers identified this quite early on this season and decided that they had to start high tempo and try to blow teams away with their wonderful attacking options in order to take pressure off the defence.

Overall, you have to look at this as a brave and incredibly positive tactic which has guaranteed them second place in a league where no-one expected them to finish fourth. This cannot be ignored - it is Rodgers' success which drives the criticism of him which is really grossly unfair.

The issue with the tactics he's employed is that, as I'm sure he's aware, if you don't get out of sight in a game, you're going to suffer in the last twenty minutes. This resulted in Liverpool struggling to find the energy to break down Chelsea in the second half last weekend, and completely falling off a cliff in the last ten minutes of the Palace game. They were physically and mentally shattered in that fixture.

Defences don't concede three goals a game by themselves. It tends to come from a variety of things - primarily, a lack of midfield cover. No defence likes to be four-on-four at the back on any regular basis. Last night against Palace, their desire to cut the goal difference down led to their defence being endlessly under-marshalled.

This incarnation of the Liverpool side won't last long. Rodgers will invest heavily in the CM areas and all across the defensive line this summer and make them much harder to beat. He will be able to play numerous different ways in games depending on the opposition, unlike this season.

This expectation that they'll drop off is misplaced, I suspect. They probably won't score so many goals, but I doubt their results will tail off like implied earlier in this thread.
 
To declare Liverpool's season as some kind of star alignment is doing them a huge disservice.

I see it like this: essentially, they have a relatively imbalanced side which is clearly better in the forward positions than elsewhere. Rodgers identified this quite early on this season and decided that they had to start high tempo and try to blow teams away with their wonderful attacking options in order to take pressure off the defence.

Overall, you have to look at this as a brave and incredibly positive tactic which has guaranteed them second place in a league where no-one expected them to finish fourth. This cannot be ignored - it is Rodgers' success which drives the criticism of him which is really grossly unfair.

The issue with the tactics he's employed is that, as I'm sure he's aware, if you don't get out of sight in a game, you're going to suffer in the last twenty minutes. This resulted in Liverpool struggling to find the energy to break down Chelsea in the second half last weekend, and completely falling off a cliff in the last ten minutes of the Palace game. They were physically and mentally shattered in that fixture.

Defences don't concede three goals a game by themselves. It tends to come from a variety of things - primarily, a lack of midfield cover. No defence likes to be four-on-four at the back on any regular basis. Last night against Palace, their desire to cut the goal difference down led to their defence being endlessly under-marshalled.

This incarnation of the Liverpool side won't last long. Rodgers will invest heavily in the CM areas and all across the defensive line this summer and make them much harder to beat. He will be able to play numerous different ways in games depending on the opposition, unlike this season.

This expectation that they'll drop off is misplaced, I suspect. They probably won't score so many goals, but I doubt their results will tail off like implied earlier in this thread.

Excellent post.
 
Very well summarised alastair. I fear it will get lost in the euphoria here though.
 
Very well summarised alastair. I fear it will get lost in the euphoria here though.
Yeah but we're still laughing at the title bottle job. Probably manager of the year and I'd also make you favourites for next season if you can keep Suarez, but for now....... :lol::lol::lol:
 
Sakho just turned 24, and he's certainly got more technical ability than Chris Smalling, or a lot of other decent CB's. I don't think that was a bad signing at all.

I just watched the Liverpool goals again, and Goal 1 is basically just Gerrard's fault (he doesn't mark Delaney and instead stands around doing nothing, because he's not a DM is he, he just plays deep now. Esteban Cambiasso and Claude Makelele are rolling over in their graves). Sakho is marking his man and in the correct position.

Goal 2 is the break after the corner, and it's definitely mostly Johnson's fault for getting run around too easily by Bolasie, failing to just foul him and take the yellow at the half-way line and then being too scared to get closer to him once he's in the box for fear of getting a pen (this part a bit more understandable, since Bolasie really is a fantastic dribbler). Flanagan does a poor job marking Gayle too, and is definitely partly at fault. Sakho jogs back (and Gerrard to his credit sprints back like a madman) and though it's doubtful he gets there, it doesn't look great when a man 10 years old is blowing by you.

Goal 3 is mainly Gerrard and Lucas's co-fault for marking absolutely nobody, instead of one of them dropping deep to help out Skrtl, so when the ball goes over them Skrtl ends up 2 on 1 against Murray and Gayle and instead of dropping off and forcing Murray to chest it down and hit a 20 yard volley for the goal (high degree of difficulty) a simple chest past Skrtl and Gayle is in alone. Sakho is correctly marking Tom Ince, who has gotten inside of Flanagan, who has fallen asleep. As is Glen Johnson, who should have tucked in upon seeing that Lucas and Gerrard have not dropped in and Skrtl is 2 vs 1, especially since there's no left-sided player to threaten him as Ledley is tucked in and deeper.

So, overall and very stupidly, I'd break down Liverpool's collapse like this, including Rodgers's failure to make the right sub (bring in Toure or Agger to play DM once it got to 3-1, and definitely once it got to 3-2!) and stop the bleeding:


Gerrard - 40 percent (instrumental in 2 goals by failing to do basic DM stuff when you're leading, which I do and I'm shit and play DM with the entitlement of Pirlo )
Rodgers - 30 percent (He had to know Gerrard might wander out of position. It's defined his whole career. Also, his team fell asleep on a set piece for the 2nd as he made a sub during it, and it was the wrong sub, too)
Johnson - 15 percent (Mostly for the 2nd goal - it's kind of understandable he got beat by Bolasie, but he did get beat, then failed to just haul him down for the yellow or put the modicum of pressure required to stop Bolasie, a generally horrific passer, from making the perfect pass to Gayle. Also involved in the truly calamitous 3rd goal.)
Lucas - 10 percent (seems high, but he's playing DM with Gerrard and has been for years, and yet doesn't drop in on the 3rd goal (and if you leave someone who habitually wanders away from babies to dress up like Roy of the Rovers and go on week-long benders to babysit for a week and the baby is dead when you get back, it's a bit your fault) and on the 1st, he's neither marking Delaney nor realizes he's behind him, and is instead trying to cut off Jedinak's potential pass backwards to half, which uh, would have been fine)
Flangan - 5 percent (If he stands closer to Gayle, does the 2nd goal go in? Loses points for trying to be involved in conceding the 3rd, but Palace didn't need him due to other teammates fecking up).
For the first goal Johnson should definitely have closed down Delaney. There's no reason whatsoever for him to stay back and let him shoot. He will either force Delaney to try and dribble to make some room for a shot or just plain have him wait for back up.
 
To declare Liverpool's season as some kind of star alignment is doing them a huge disservice.

I see it like this: essentially, they have a relatively imbalanced side which is clearly better in the forward positions than elsewhere. Rodgers identified this quite early on this season and decided that they had to start high tempo and try to blow teams away with their wonderful attacking options in order to take pressure off the defence.

Overall, you have to look at this as a brave and incredibly positive tactic which has guaranteed them second place in a league where no-one expected them to finish fourth. This cannot be ignored - it is Rodgers' success which drives the criticism of him which is really grossly unfair.

The issue with the tactics he's employed is that, as I'm sure he's aware, if you don't get out of sight in a game, you're going to suffer in the last twenty minutes. This resulted in Liverpool struggling to find the energy to break down Chelsea in the second half last weekend, and completely falling off a cliff in the last ten minutes of the Palace game. They were physically and mentally shattered in that fixture.

Defences don't concede three goals a game by themselves. It tends to come from a variety of things - primarily, a lack of midfield cover. No defence likes to be four-on-four at the back on any regular basis. Last night against Palace, their desire to cut the goal difference down led to their defence being endlessly under-marshalled.

This incarnation of the Liverpool side won't last long. Rodgers will invest heavily in the CM areas and all across the defensive line this summer and make them much harder to beat. He will be able to play numerous different ways in games depending on the opposition, unlike this season.

This expectation that they'll drop off is misplaced, I suspect. They probably won't score so many goals, but I doubt their results will tail off like implied earlier in this thread.

Good post.

It's a very interesting summer for Pool ahead. They'l have cash to spend but are also riddled with a squad that needs much addition to add depth to it so they're unlikely to spend big on 1 player. They'l buy in numbers and if they get it right, I can see them being a major force again next season. Poor purchases and they'l struggle to juggle Europe and the PL with the squad they have. Either ways, I dont expect them to drop off majorly at all, Rodgers is a top manager imo. People here will see that too once the delight at them fecking up last night passes by.
 
A very good and fair analysis which misses the cardinal point that Suarez is gone in the summer.

and also the fact that City and Chelsea played 15 more matches than Liverpool this season.
 
For the first goal Johnson should definitely have closed down Delaney. There's no reason whatsoever for him to stay back and let him shoot. He will either force Delaney to try and dribble to make some room for a shot or just plain have him wait for back up.

I figured Delaney was central enough that it was more Lucas and Gerrard`s responsibility, but unless there`s someone out wide to worry about, you`re probably right in throwing some blame Johnson`s direction.
 
To declare Liverpool's season as some kind of star alignment is doing them a huge disservice.

I see it like this: essentially, they have a relatively imbalanced side which is clearly better in the forward positions than elsewhere. Rodgers identified this quite early on this season and decided that they had to start high tempo and try to blow teams away with their wonderful attacking options in order to take pressure off the defence.

Overall, you have to look at this as a brave and incredibly positive tactic which has guaranteed them second place in a league where no-one expected them to finish fourth. This cannot be ignored - it is Rodgers' success which drives the criticism of him which is really grossly unfair.

The issue with the tactics he's employed is that, as I'm sure he's aware, if you don't get out of sight in a game, you're going to suffer in the last twenty minutes. This resulted in Liverpool struggling to find the energy to break down Chelsea in the second half last weekend, and completely falling off a cliff in the last ten minutes of the Palace game. They were physically and mentally shattered in that fixture.

Defences don't concede three goals a game by themselves. It tends to come from a variety of things - primarily, a lack of midfield cover. No defence likes to be four-on-four at the back on any regular basis. Last night against Palace, their desire to cut the goal difference down led to their defence being endlessly under-marshalled.

This incarnation of the Liverpool side won't last long. Rodgers will invest heavily in the CM areas and all across the defensive line this summer and make them much harder to beat. He will be able to play numerous different ways in games depending on the opposition, unlike this season.

This expectation that they'll drop off is misplaced, I suspect. They probably won't score so many goals, but I doubt their results will tail off like implied earlier in this thread.
I agree with this, but I don't see how it goes against what has been said above, especially the 'star alignment' comment that you highlight at the beginning of the post.

What has been said about Rodgers, on a very frequent basis on this board, is that he has done absolute stellar work with that squad. No one denies it. I agree with you that people are going overboard with their comments on him at the moment, though I do believe there was some tactical naivety on his part during the last few games, which have turned out to be crucial. No biggie, he's still a young manager and he'll learn from it. And once the 'euphoria' has passed, everyone will recognize that getting them in the top 2 this season was immense, no doubt about it.

Then, concerning your last two paragraphs, you have an optimistic approach to their future. I don't. And I'm not saying that because it's Liverpool, I don't really care about it, and the Liverpool supporters I know over here (who aren't as heavily invested as Barney or Dumbstar or the others on here) have the same feeling. I fully respect your opinion that this season will help Liverpool re-establish themselves at the top and build upon it, I do. I just don't agree with it, and I don't think it's an unreasonable opinion, or an opinion worthy of ridicule, to suggest that Chelsea and City are going to get stronger, that Arsenal are going to remain an established fixture in the top 4 and that Utd won't have such a poor season anytime soon (this is, I guess, where most Liverpool fans disagree). I think it's going to be hard for Liverpool to maintain themselves at this level, and this is where Rodgers is going to have to prove his worth.

Saying there was an 'alignment of the stars' isn't saying everyone else was shit and they don't deserve to be where they are. They definitely do deserve it, and as you said, Rodgers maximized the elements he had at his disposition. All I mean by that comment is that there was a sense, at times, that a lot of things were going their way with a lot of players performing out of their skin (again, I understand Liverpool fans disagree, but I don't think Suarez and Sturridge will perform again like this, I'm not even sure the Uruguayan will be there come September) and their direct opponents kind of messing up during the run-in (Chelsea with some very poor performances, and City with the Sunderland one that felt like a huge blow at the time) and it did feel like they were destined to win it. I think they missed a huge opportunity to get that title (if it materializes, to be fair I'm not as confident as 90% of the posters on here in City not screwing it up) and could've done better in the last few games by slightly shifting their approach to games. Sure, there's the 'we've played like this all season let's not change a winning formula' that works, but 1) they actually have played some games very defensively (especially towards the start of the season) and 2) the stakes were so much higher that being a tad more conservative in the approach, especially given the physionomy of certain games, might have been better for them. Though of course, these last couple of sentences are said with the fantastic gift of hindsight, but it doesn't change the rest of my post.
 
Alastair, good post, but I disagree that they`ll spend on CM this summer. They have Henderson, Coutinho, Allen, Gerrard and Lucas there. Seems more likely to me they`ll buy the attacker they desperately need as cover and a defender, but that might be it.

Also, if Suarez goes to Madrid, they will of course need to replace him.
 
Also, while Rodgers has been brilliant, it`s not a coincidence that a season of Gerrard as the deep DM has increased both their goal output, and their opponents.
 
Rooney in Paris, I think a lot of us are scared Liverpool will be excellent in the future because they`ve looked so dangerous and had such fantastic pace, verve and spacing in their passing game, which seems to be almost entirely Rodgers`coaching.

They`ll probably lose Suarez, but Sakho should improve and they will surely spend some serious money on defense over the next couple years.
 
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