To be fair, the debate about being "worthy" of being in a top 4 squad or not is a bit silly. We've had shit players (or players that would widely be considered shit) play in title winning sides because they can play a role. If Liverpool finish top 4 this season, then their squad is top 4 worthy, simple as.
Brentan Rodgers
- Thread starter The Neviller
- Start date
- Status
Sakho, Coutinho, Sturridge and Suarez have too at other teams.
You have a point about Mignolet, Skrtel and Agger, but the rest of them sorry no they aren't good enough. Gerrard was, but isn't anymore (although he can offer something in terms of experience). The rest of them are just punching above their weight, under the guidance of a brilliant coach.
Also I want to add Liverpool is making advanatge of the slump here at United. If we had a decent coach here, in the same quality bracket of Mourinho, Arsene, Pellegrini or even Rodgers (somebody who just knows how to actually make use of his players). The top 4 would have existed of us, City, Chelsea and Arsenal and Liverpool would fall short. Because we are having an absolute slump under one of the worst managers ever, Liverpool is sort of taking our place in the top 4.
So when I say players that are good enough for top 4, I really mean players that deserve to be in a squad that has enough quality to play top 4 (under a good manager, not Moyes ofc, if he was at Liverpool you'd be nowhere near top 4 either). Suarez and Sturridge would add something to those team and even deserve to be at a team that could win the PL, Suarez is maybay even the best player in the league. Mignolet, Agger and Skrtel would fit in such a team aswell, the rest sorry but I'am really not convinced about their football cappabilities.
At United there are also a number of players who don't deserve to be anywhere near top 4, Anderson, Cleverley, Büttner, Valencia and Young. Players that are getting too old for it, Ferdinand and Giggs.
Talking about top 4 in the PL....... (thought that was implicit).
Don't hold back, tell us how you really feel.
I don't get most of your points.
Of course they're making advantage of our bad season, but so what? We've won seasons when our main opponents were badly managed, it works both ways.
And again, if this side finishes top 4, it's that they deserve it. Weaker "squads" (on paper) have finished top 4 before, and will again. Yes they lack real quality in some positions, but then again they've been finishing outside of top 4 for a few seasons. It's up to them, this season, to carry on bettering their squad, which is what a team can do when they go up an echelon.
Sure, on the paper our squad probably looks better. But football isn't a list of names and their worth, it's a team and squad effort, and that's particularly true over the course of the season. Liverpool are acting like a proper team on the field, even weaker players playing their part in what they're doing.
I feel like a supporter whose club is having a slump under one of the worst managers I have ever seen (coaching a top side). I also feel genuinely worried about the fact the club is sticking to this manager, which means it might go one for quite a while.
Disappointed, confused, angry, frustrated, powerless and desperate (for the sacking of Moyes) would describe my feelings as a Manchester United supporter most accuratley at this moment and I don't expect it to change until he is fired either.
Liverpool definitely deserve top 4 if they continue like this, its ridiculous to think otherwise. They are playing well as a team, making the most of their best players and using a tactic that exploits what those players are great at. And they work hard, making the most tackles in the league along with Palace who just pipped them this week. They may not be the fanciest of the teams but guess what - the team that gets the 4th most points gets 4th place, not the team with the 4th fanciest players doing the 4th most stepovers
Just because Liverpool don't have a pristine squad, doesn't mean qualifying for the Champions League won't be out of merit. They will fully deserve it, because they have a strong first team that are allowed continuity, excellent players in Suarez, Sturridge and Coutinho and because they are under the guidance of a quality and intelligent manager who has instilled a very entertaining and effective style of play. A manager who has enhanced the performance of a number of players who had question marks over them like Sterling and Henderson.
The team that has the strongest squad doesn't necessarily finish the highest. I don't believe we had the strongest squad last season - which is being made abundantly apparent this season - but we won the title at a canter and fully deserved it. A lot of City's star players under-performed like Aguero and Yaya Toure, but that isn't our problem and means we certainly shouldn't be discredited for our title win.
Likewise, I'm confident Chelsea will win the title this season and my opinion has never swayed. They've got a strong and more refined squad with the more appropriate personnel to suit Mourinho's ideas for the team, but City certainly have the stronger squad IMO. They would fully deserve the title if they come first though when they have arguably the best manager in the world who is tactically more adaptable than any other PL manager and when they have taken seven out of nine off of Arsenal and City.
We can say where we would be with superior management. I for believe we would certainly be right in the mix for top four even if we appointed Martinez. But the club is too blame for where they are and the decisions they have made. Liverpool, or whoever finishes fourth shouldn't be discredited, because of our errors.
The team that has the strongest squad doesn't necessarily finish the highest. I don't believe we had the strongest squad last season - which is being made abundantly apparent this season - but we won the title at a canter and fully deserved it. A lot of City's star players under-performed like Aguero and Yaya Toure, but that isn't our problem and means we certainly shouldn't be discredited for our title win.
Likewise, I'm confident Chelsea will win the title this season and my opinion has never swayed. They've got a strong and more refined squad with the more appropriate personnel to suit Mourinho's ideas for the team, but City certainly have the stronger squad IMO. They would fully deserve the title if they come first though when they have arguably the best manager in the world who is tactically more adaptable than any other PL manager and when they have taken seven out of nine off of Arsenal and City.
We can say where we would be with superior management. I for believe we would certainly be right in the mix for top four even if we appointed Martinez. But the club is too blame for where they are and the decisions they have made. Liverpool, or whoever finishes fourth shouldn't be discredited, because of our errors.
No no mate there clearly is some misunderstading.
The points I'am trying to make have nothing to do with Liverpool not earning top 4, they deserve everything they are getting this season. What you are saying is absolutley right, Liverpool are playing like a genuine team, they are putting in a collective effort to get the very best out of every game and are succeding very well in that. Just like we did under Ferguson, Chelsea and City have had squads that far more likely to win the title with, yet Ferguson outplayed them every single season, because he was a superior manager and knew how to use his players alot beter.
My point was about the effect a manager has on its team. And about how Brenton Rodgers is a far beter manager than David Moyes. Liverpool is above us atm, because of the effect of a having a better manager.
My intial post was about looking at how Brenton manages to play some of the sexiest and most effective football in the league with a squad of players that aren't really all that. I was saying purely on individual quality Liverpool have few players who deserve to be in a top 4 side, while Manchester United has plenty, yet Brenton manages to mold Liverpool into a good functioning team that plays way beter than what Manchester United is playing under Moyes. My point was also about imagining what a coach like Brenton Rodgers (or beter, because I surely don't rate him as one of the best) could do with a squad (selection of players) like we have at United. If you can play sexy football with players like Liverpool have, then a good coach should be able to play breathtaking stuff with what we currently have at Manchester United.
Hence why It makes having Moyes as a coach such sad times, because there is so much unused potential at this club, hence why I don't understand the signing of Moyes in the first place and definitley don't understand the club (and some of the fans) sticking by him. We could have such a wonderfull thing here at United, with the right coach, who'd have a proper modern football vision and a positive winner attitude about the game. Yet we are stuck with Moyes and Fergie's request the stick by the clown as true reds...blah blah blah, sad times
Ah ok, sorry for misunderstanding your post mate!
I felt sorry for Moyes today watching the post-match interview : here is the guy who was given the keys to the kingdom and dropped them down the gutter. And he knows it.
No no mate there clearly is some misunderstading.
The points I'am trying to make have nothing to do with Liverpool not earning top 4, they deserve everything they are getting this season. What you are saying is absolutley right, Liverpool are playing like a genuine team, they are putting in a collective effort to get the very best out of every game and are succeding very well in that. Just like we did under Ferguson, Chelsea and City have had squads that far more likely to win the title with, yet Ferguson outplayed them every single season, because he was a superior manager and knew how to use his players alot beter.
My point was about the effect a manager has on its team. And about how Brenton Rodgers is a far beter manager than David Moyes. Liverpool is above us atm, because of the effect of a having a better manager.
My intial post was about looking at how Brenton manages to play some of the sexiest and most effective football in the league with a squad of players that aren't really all that. I was saying purely on individual quality Liverpool have few players who deserve to be in a top 4 side, while Manchester United has plenty, yet Brenton manages to mold Liverpool into a good functioning team that plays way beter than what Manchester United is playing under Moyes. My point was also about imagining what a coach like Brenton Rodgers (or beter, because I surely don't rate him as one of the best) could do with a squad (selection of players) like we have at United. If you can play sexy football with players like Liverpool have, then a good coach should be able to play breathtaking stuff with what we currently have at Manchester United.
Hence why It makes having Moyes as a coach such sad times, because there is so much unused potential at this club, hence why I don't understand the signing of Moyes in the first place and definitley don't understand the club (and some of the fans) sticking by him. We could have such a wonderfull thing here at United, with the right coach, who'd have a proper modern football vision and a positive winner attitude about the game. Yet we are stuck with Moyes and Fergie's request the stick by the clown as true reds...blah blah blah, sad times
Good post that mate. It encapsulates a lot of what I've said in the past regarding the fact that a good manager is far more important than 11 good players. Too many people get bogged down with saying that a team needs X amount of world class players in order to compete at the top level. The players, to a certain extent, are irrelevant. It's how the manager utilises them, works on their strengths & weaknesses, & adapts them to the style he wants to play. That's the important thing in getting a side to compete with the best. Jurgen Klopp is a classic example of what can be achieved if you've got the right man in charge.
SAF could take over Hyde United, & in 3 or 4 years he'd have them playing in League One. Roy Hodgson could take over at Barcelona, & he'd have them fighting relegation in 3 or 4 years time.
He is the perfect example of what a positive modern coach can achieve in the PL given time and support from the board. I wish United would follow the lead of Liverpool in this, they got in Hodgson, they were absolute shit when he was there, they recognized that the issue was the trainer with an outdated vision on football. They realized he wasn't the right man to let them play exciting football and get results with it. They nipped it in the but, firred him and brought in a coach with an entirely different vision that was known to let his team play in the right way. They supported him througout, they gave him time, made sure he didn't lose his starplayers and they let him bring in his own players within the budget. They are getting the rewards for that now, because Liverpool is playing some of the sexiest most effective football with by far the poorest team in the entire top 7.
Makes you wonder what a positive modern coach could actually accomplish given the resources that a team like Manchester United has. Makes you wonder why in godsname we ever went for Moyes and definiteley makes you wonder why after all this we are still sticking to him...
Sad times
Why the feck do people keep forgetting that, after Hodgson got fired, Liverpool let Dalgish embarrass himself for a season and a half? I can understand Liverpool fans pretending that period didn't exist, but no one else has that excuse.
No no mate there clearly is some misunderstading.
The points I'am trying to make have nothing to do with Liverpool not earning top 4, they deserve everything they are getting this season. What you are saying is absolutley right, Liverpool are playing like a genuine team, they are putting in a collective effort to get the very best out of every game and are succeding very well in that. Just like we did under Ferguson, Chelsea and City have had squads that far more likely to win the title with, yet Ferguson outplayed them every single season, because he was a superior manager and knew how to use his players alot beter.
My point was about the effect a manager has on its team. And about how Brenton Rodgers is a far beter manager than David Moyes. Liverpool is above us atm, because of the effect of a having a better manager.
My intial post was about looking at how Brenton manages to play some of the sexiest and most effective football in the league with a squad of players that aren't really all that. I was saying purely on individual quality Liverpool have few players who deserve to be in a top 4 side, while Manchester United has plenty, yet Brenton manages to mold Liverpool into a good functioning team that plays way beter than what Manchester United is playing under Moyes. My point was also about imagining what a coach like Brenton Rodgers (or beter, because I surely don't rate him as one of the best) could do with a squad (selection of players) like we have at United. If you can play sexy football with players like Liverpool have, then a good coach should be able to play breathtaking stuff with what we currently have at Manchester United.
Hence why It makes having Moyes as a coach such sad times, because there is so much unused potential at this club, hence why I don't understand the signing of Moyes in the first place and definitley don't understand the club (and some of the fans) sticking by him. We could have such a wonderfull thing here at United, with the right coach, who'd have a proper modern football vision and a positive winner attitude about the game. Yet we are stuck with Moyes and Fergie's request the stick by the clown as true reds...blah blah blah, sad times
I think you overrate how good your squad is.
Yep. Getting two points out of 18 against West brom,Spurs,Everton,Southampton,Fulham,Newcastle at home is a fair reflection of our squad ability.
It would have taken a miracle for us to get another 5-6 points to put us in the mix for fourth.
We would have to have beaten West brom,Newcastle,Fulham,Southampton at home and drawn against Everton+Spurs to get us another 12 points to put us 3 off the top. No manager could have got them sort of results. Especially one who only got 70mil to improve the squad.
Never mind the fact that most midtable teams would be well able to get at least 8-9 points from those fixtures.
Last edited:
Why would Liverpool fans pretend that period didn't exist? I have no problem at all remembering 2 Cup finals. On the other hand, who's this Hodgson bloke you mention?
Ha, just a little and not realising Alex Ferguson did exactly what he is saying Rodgers is doing with Liverpool.
No I really don't, I admit the squad is faulted, it has some aging players that need to be replaced, it lacks a bit of depth on a few positions and it needs atleast one or two good midfield additions, because that area has been neglected for the last 5 years. Scholes, Hargo, Fletcher having that injurry, they were never really replaced by Ferguson.
Yet in terms of first team players we have a good squad. Jones and Smalling have been hailed as some of the best defensive talents in the PL, Evans is a fine player and Vidic and Rio have been the top defenders of the PL for many years, ofcourse they get older and aren't the best in the league anymore but they offer some fantstic back up. Leftback has been a problem, Evra is really good, but over the last couple of seasons he hasn't been as consistent anymore and we actually need a quality back up for that position which we don't have and never brought in (Fabio didn't cut it and Büttner just isn't never was good enough). Rafael has always been one of the best talents in the PL for the rightback and developped into a fine first team player for that position. With DDG we have one of the best keepers in the league aswell. So defensiveley we have a very good squad.
Our midfield is poor like I said, only Carrick is actually good enough to really be a first team player for us on that position. He was so good last year, he was heralded as one of the or even the best central midfielder in the league (not just by United fans, also by somebody like Wenger for example). (the rest of the midfield options, Cleverley and Anderson never were good enough)
Offensively we have always been more than fine with players like Rooney and RVP who are seen as some of the best players in the league (RVP was even seen as the best player in league last year and Rooney idem a couple a years before that). Good back up options with a golden sub that can score 20+ a season in Hernandez and a very talented forward with potential in Welbeck.
Wingers and AM have been questional for the last couple of years. At some point having Nani, Young and Valencia was seen as having the best winger options in the league. Ofcourse they all failed to realise their potential, although at some point things were looking so good for all 3 of them. Tet last year they were a problem, so no surprise they are also a problem this year. We brought in kagawa to sort of the fact we didn't really have a proper attacking midfielder that could play as a number 10. Kagawa is quality, he showed that at Dortmund, being voted the best player in a team that won the Bundeliga twice, scoring like 17 goals and giving like 10 assists, very tidy stats for a player. He was struggling in his first season, but things were looking to come good for him at the end of last season, he was really showing promise when played in his best position.
Now Moyes was given that squad and Zaha (best player from the Championship last year) and Adnan, which should have already been enough to adress some of the issues on the wing positions. He was allowed to spend £27.5m bringing in a midfielder, now we overpayed for Fellaini and he perhpas isn't what we needed, but he is a very good player and definitely beter than what we had on the midfield. And this winter he got to add Mata, whom alot of people considered to be one of the best players in the league for the last 2 seasons.
That is a squad with enough quality to comfortably get top 4. Arsenal and Liverpool really don't have those kind of options. If you would have said Arsenal and Liverpool would be doing so much better with these players last year you would have been condemned a mad man on here. Now I'am not saying its a perfect squad, some players are getting past it and the midfield has always been an issue. Yet this team was good enough to get around 90 points 3 seasons in a row (with less players in fact) and win 2 PL with it. That isn't a bad squad, no way you can look at that and say that isn't a squad that should comfortabley be able to get 2nd or 3th place easily and in a good year could win the title. ofcourse all this under the assumption of having a really good manager ( Ferguson could win the PL every year with this team no doubt about it).
Ofcourse how they are playing right now alot of these players look like dogshit, but that is exactly my point, a bad manager can let really good players look like dogshit and a very good manager can let average players look like worldbeaters. Moyes is making alot of capable players look like dogshit, although I admit Ferguson probabbly let some of them look beter then they were.
I can tell ya players like Ramsay, Henderson, Lucas, Koscielny, Mertesacker, Coutinho, Sterling, Sakho etc, they would look like dogshit under Moyes aswell. While probably Brenton or Wenger would be able to let Cleverley or even Anderson look like actual good midfielders. A manager has this effect and I think its underrated on here. Players that were good enough to win the PL on a canter don't become dogshit over a couple of months, it just doens't happen. Nor could any manager win the PL on a canter with absolute dogshit, not even SAF. A good competent manager with a modern style of football could not just do alot beter with these player, he could/should be able to miles beter !
Brenton is making an average set of players look like a capable contender for top 4, being carried by the individual talent of one of the best players in the world atm Luis Suarez.
Ferguson was capable of winning and dominanting the PL year in year out with these players. Ofcourse he made them look beter than what they are, a good manager does that, no doubt about it, maybay Ferguson did it even more than Brenton is doing it with the Liverpool players.
But there still is a difference in being the best team in the PL and being a capable contender for 4th (which if SAF or another manager would still be here, Liverpool woudln't be getting this season, so don't think they have the 4th best squad in the league because its simply not true).
I'd say if you take managers out of the equasion, United has probably had the 3th or second best set of players in the league and still do. City has a beter squad, Chelsea has had an equal squad (2nd or 3th is debateable). I'd say Arsenal has the 4th best squad, Tottenham the 5th best squad and Liverpool the 6th and Everton the 7th. That would be my classification of the teams in terms of actual quality of players available in the team (not including the effect a good or bad manager has on the team).
-City
-United/Chelsea
-Chelsea/United
-Arsenal
-Tottenham
-Liverpool
-Everton
Ferguson was a real good manager because he managed to win the PL with these players, not just on a rare occassion, but year in year out, so actually ridiculing City who had a beter squad on quite a number of occassions. Normally a United team with those players would finish 2nd or 3th under another less capable manager.
Now Moyes was decent at Everton, more experienced because he was there 11 years and he made it really his team and he knew how to put them to good effect. he managed to ridicule Liverpool on a number of occassions by finishing above them, but nothing major, he never made it in top 4 for example. With United he has been terrible, because he brough us down from first place to seventh, 2nd or 3th would have been expected, perhpas 4th, but never 7th.
Brenton this year is really good, last year wasn't very good, but this year he is spot on. He is letting Liverpool play as a contender for top and because of the absence of a really good United, he'll get 4th and with a setback of Arsenal perhaps even 3th. Which is really good.
Martinez is also doing ok, because he is closer to top 4 than Everton ever were under Moyes and who knows what he could do with Everton if he has the time to really get into the job.
City and Chelsea are finally doing what they are supposed to do because they finally have decent managers at the club. Chelsea with Mourinho might even outplay Pellegrini with City and actually win the PL this year, but its between these 2. However if City win it, its on manpower with a far superior squad that should always win this PL in fact.
Arsenal are doing fine, might even do great, show how valuable the experience of Wenger is, but somehow are looking like bottling it again and might just end 3th or 4th depending what Liverpool do. Also clearly moving up a spot because of the fallback of a great Manchester United team, else they would probably get no higher than 4th and might still get dragged into a race for 4th with Liverpool.
Tottenham doing not so very good, not as bad as United, but not being as high up the table as they should; Also down to poor management, AVB was a real bad coach and Shirwood is just ad interim but actually far better than AVB, he might have been higher up had he been coaching from the start.
That is my view on the dynamics in the PL, the power differences in terms of players and the effect of the managers who are allowed to work with these players. Poor managers underperform, and Moyes is the worst one atm and good managers overperform, Brenton, Mourinho, Martinez and Wenger being the examples. Maybay its complete bollocks to some, but its just the way I see it for myself. I believe with a good manager (for example Klopp or Simeone) Manchester United would contend for the PL with these players. And if the team would invest (£100 to £150m like some would let Moyes spend) to adress some of the issues in the squad (midfield and aging defence,) we would be the best team in the league actually and could start looking at Real, Barca or even Bayern in a few years time. But ofcourse no chance of that with Moyes.
That post was made by a united fan, Count. He clearly doesn't know the full history of our managers is all. No conspiracy here by Liverpool fans to try and get away from Kenny's second stint in charge.
Oh, I know. I find it staggering that a United fan wouldn't remember it, is all. Clinging to the memory of Kenny's second stint in charge of ye is one ray of light I have in these dark times
Haha yeah it wasn't exactly the greatest of times for Liverpool. I like this NoArro chap. Glosses over all our difficult periods.Oh, I know. I find it staggering that a United fan wouldn't remember it, is all. Clinging to the memory of Kenny's second stint in charge of ye is one ray of light I have in these dark times
Reading the 1st few pages of the thread is quite funny.
WTF Stick? It wasn't exactly as bad as some like to think either.
Apart from signing Suarez, what was good about it?
league cup trophy, fa cup final.
I forgot your league cup!
It really is, especially the praise for Lambert.
Said it on Pulis thread - if things doesn't change that much - he would be my pick for the PFA manager award. He has been brilliant, progressive, exciting and Liverpool unfortunately seems to be on the title race.
I described it as difficult which is how I felt it was. The football we were playing then wasn't good to watch IMO. Players like Downing and Carroll were brought in. I don't like managers/players returning for a second bite and it didn't work. Granted a league cup final is ok and signing Suarez was a coup but the handling of many situations and overall poor league performance left me disappointed.
I felt the football was generally good. Attacking, energetic and an efficient high backline (something we could do with today).
That was the first half season. The second half season was more or less the same, but with more bewildering team selections (barely any sign of Maxi, Hendo given free leave to underperform on the right, Carroll in and out without regard for form) and missing chances in abolutely ridiculous fashion.
The final half season was, mostly, more of the same - For the first 20-30 minutes of games. Then we'd inevitably crack and crumble and fall apart like no one else. Never seen a Liverpool side so fragile and lacking in self-belief. Not even under Hodgson (his football was just shit and lacking in any ambition to have belief in). Downing was the epitomy what we were like at the time. Skills, modern player, retreats into his shell as soon as a gust of wind blows across his hair.
That was the first half season. The second half season was more or less the same, but with more bewildering team selections (barely any sign of Maxi, Hendo given free leave to underperform on the right, Carroll in and out without regard for form) and missing chances in abolutely ridiculous fashion.
The final half season was, mostly, more of the same - For the first 20-30 minutes of games. Then we'd inevitably crack and crumble and fall apart like no one else. Never seen a Liverpool side so fragile and lacking in self-belief. Not even under Hodgson (his football was just shit and lacking in any ambition to have belief in). Downing was the epitomy what we were like at the time. Skills, modern player, retreats into his shell as soon as a gust of wind blows across his hair.
Daglish almost ruined you with those 4 signings, only Henderson came good. Rodgers deserve a lot of credit for getting rid of the 3 duds so quickly. I remember some Liverpool fans were not happy that he did not give Caroll a proper chance. Hah!
I was one of them.
Even if Carroll had turned into a decent player, could you imagine him in the game against Arsenal?
"ball's won in midfield, gotta turn now and run for the break. Oh, they've already passed it into the area and scored..."
Rodgers made a brave decision getting rid and it was, without any hindsight of how Carrol has since turned out (he was coming into good form at the end of Kenny's reign), 100% correct.
Offloading Adam was par for the course. Like Carroll, could be good player for the squad going on ability. He had lots of heart though and wasn't intidimated by big opposition. Dived like an absolute champ as well. Too fat and wasteful to be at a top club though.
Rodgers actually made Downing look like a player for a little while, which is quite a feat. Still had to go.
Another good thing Rodgers did by getting rid of all the dead wood was saving on wages. Joe Cole anyone?
Adam was ok, we recouped back all our money. He also good 2 goals and 8 assists for us. Downing and Carroll were awful. Coates will probably be a failure at least here. Bellamy, Henderson, Enrique, Suarez and Doni were all very good additions.
He also did an excellent job at selling our shite. His downfall was the run of games after the league cup. We fell apart.
Adams was not ok. He is not even good enough to be in the squad for a top 4 team. It is irrelevant what you paid or sold him for unless you want to be a club whose primary objective is to earn money by transfers. This was one of the most bizarre defense Pool fans had even for Benitez's dud buys. Anyway Daglish was clearly out of his depth managing in current footballing scenario, you would probably be even worse off that us right now if he had not been sacked. Infact that is another one, Pool fans were also not happy that he was let go.
. There were mumbling about another revolt against clueless Yank owners.- Status