Except everybody knew what Putin is/was back then, but anyway people selectively chose to ignore it. But in Qatar's case not. I am not defending Qatar by any mean, I am just nauseated by the hypocrisy of the human race.
Boycott The Qatar World Cup?
- Thread starter OldSchoolManc
- Start date
Theyre not related.
Who has caused more harm globally UK or Qatar? The answer is the UK. Nobody is arguing that point, ever.
By your bizarre logic we subsequently can't criticise Qatar getting the world cup because Cromwell and the pillage of Africa etc?
If protests makes one life better then how is it hypocritical to protest?
English is my 4th language. Instead of shooting cheap personal shots about comprehension. Explain more in your English mother language.
It is not hypocritical to protest now.
But it is hypocritical if you do it only now and choose to ignore it in the case of Brazil, Russia and the next host USA.
I agree. However, we won't be having discussions altogether about rights abuses when western countries are going to be hosts of sporting events. There will not be threads on the caf about them, certainly none calling for boycotts. Not so far fetched is it?We definitely live in an imperfect hypocritical world but I don't think that should cloud every discussion we have. Yes the powerful western media is a problem, but they cause as many problems internally in the countries they are not likely to accuse on the international stage, so again it's not a black and white issue of simple favouritism, they have their own agenda. . American media is far more harmful to the US than anywhere else in real material terms.
I boycott everything.
You don't really want to be making this argument. The US has sponsored/engineered the toppling of legitimate democractic governments in a bunch of countries when those governments have not been in line with American interests.
Edit: not to mention the unprecedented threats US democracy itself is experiencing in recent years.
You've literally made up an argument in your head over a one word post I made. It's impossible to debate someone who uses tactics like that. You actually made it personal with your first reply to me.
It wouldn’t be hypocritical in those cases either given that the central problem for many isn’t just one of ethics, it’s the totality of all the other issues which include is it a legitimately (developing) football nation, would it disrupt the European league seasons, was there extensive bribery involved in the award. This is what sets Qatar apart from every other example previously cited in this thread.
You're not listening. That's not an argument.
I'm no fan of the US but they have elections and in theory don't discriminate against sections of their population. If this was the criteria for someone's protest it wouln't be hypocrisy. There are many people screaming hypocrisy because of assumotions. That's my point.
Maybe I was overreactive against your post (based on previous discussions with you in the whataboutism thread) and I am sorry for that, but my general points in my post are still valid and related. Sorry if you felt it was personal.
Why is it not an argument?
Outside, the US supports democracy only when it suits them
And inside their own country, they absolutely discriminate against sections of their own population, as you yourself allude to by saying "in theory." You know what happens in practice. Gerrymandering has a significant racist dimension. And, lest we forget, armed insurrectionists stormed their Capitol only a year ago. Democracy in the US is hanging by a thread.
Yes I do know what happens in practice and the injustices in the US and casused by the US are further subjects I could bore people to death on.
It's not an argument because it's not the point I was making.
Screaming hypocrisy because YOU don't see see any difference in Qatar and the US is nonsense. Other people do see it differently.
Let's play a game of Spot the Difference.
https://freedomhouse.org/country/united-states/freedom-world/2022
https://freedomhouse.org/country/qatar/freedom-world/2022
We wouldn't because issues like this wouldn't be in play when viewed in totality of all the other issues (which people seem to conveniently ignore in order to constrain their arguments to "hypocrisy").
You are putting words in my mouth. The US and Qatar are not comparable in terms of freedoms, there's no debate on that.
However, to claim that the existence of democracy in the US could be one of the criterias for awarding them a WC while ignoring the disastrous impact of their foreign policy on other democracies in the world is a curious kind of cherry picking.
Sorry, what do you mean by totality of all other issues?
There are vile double standards without doubt, but there has been growing pushback against the last few world cups, especially Brazil and Russia, two countries with a football tradition. Qatar is an outlier in that regard.
The ones previously cited numerous times in this thread.
1. Non-Football nation
2. No infrastructure
3. Disruption of European league football seasons
4. Bribery
These are above and beyond the issue of the 6,500 migrant deaths in the lead up to the WC.
When each of these points are taken in totality, it places Qatar in a completely unique category that cannot be compared to any of the other nations previously cited.
Then protesting one and not the other is not hypocrisy.
I'm not claiming anything, it's a hypothetical to shut down the knee jerk cries of hypocrisy and selective protest. The protest is legitimate in the face of human rights violations, regardless of any other country.
edit - the freedoms in question are essential for change and a massive difference to the lives of the citizens, election, the formation of political parties, the legislative framework for equality, none of which exists in Qatar.
I would like to add that they're the current Asia Cup champions.
But agree with the other points. I'm not a fan of the world cup being held there primarily because of how disruptive it is to the calendar. But then I'm not a fan of white countries double standards with regards to this world cup compared to Russia 4 years ago and other countries with human rights violations done outside of their own, it's racist and Islamophobic.
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To an Iraqi citizen, whose leg got blown off admist a needless war waged by a criminal US president, it would seem quite hypocritical to protest one and not the other. It is all a matter of lived experience.
Fair point. I was simply using Cantona's argument in this regard.
I got arrested here protesting that war. It doesn't change my opinion on Qatar.
The logical conclusion of your argument is that protest can only exist in a perfect world, where it really wouldn't be necessary.
I stopped watching football a few years ago, but am planning on coming back during the World Cup so I can boycott it. Won't watch a single game.
Looking like a tangled web and mental gymnastics trying to excuse some western countries. The corruption and bribery doesn't hold water either, it's a clear part of the bidding process and FIFA for decades sadly.
I do remember push back against Russia though, lots of issues were highlighted, they've been the bad guy for US and western Europe for a long time.
I do remember push back against Russia though, lots of issues were highlighted, they've been the bad guy for US and western Europe for a long time.
I'd love to see some evidence of your last sentence. It would appear that nations with no infrastructure (and thus no chance of getting a WC), are the ones who would need to engage in that sort of thing.
It's genuinely amazing that some people equate criticism of Qatar with some bizarre condoning of all other corruption and human rights abuses. I can guarantee you the people leading the protests were also the vocal ones over Brazil and Russia.
I like that and agree 100%.
Its a lot of western arrogance going there, I'm from germany btw.
I think it was uncovered by Die Speigel that there was corruption involved in Germany's 2006 bid.
https://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-49253141.amp
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The link resolves to a photo.
I recall reports of England with the infrastructure to host a World Cup saying they found bribery was a part of getting a successful bid. I guess you can just dismiss it though, it's clear to me and the people who organized and saw how it kept being played out.
how do you even become "football nation" btw? they're Asian Cup champions, they get invited to Gold Cup tournaments, their clubs win Asian Champions League occasionally, I mean, what else you can do? some famous players and managers went there, but they will always be limited in certain way because of where they are. they can't evolve much from current position, in sense that they will become significant to us from Europe. we will never care about their clubs for same reason we don't care about Colo Colo or Suwon. it's normal.
Corruption and under the table payments was the quiet stuff not being said not out loud until Russia and Qatar won it and everyone got pissed off.
There was corruption even in the Korea Japan bid
https://www.dailymail.co.uk/sport/f...n-federation-950-000-2002-World-Cup-vote.html
There was corruption even in the Korea Japan bid
https://www.dailymail.co.uk/sport/f...n-federation-950-000-2002-World-Cup-vote.html
Not sure how you got that from what I said. A legless Iraqi would find it hypocritical to not take the matter of a US presidency gone insane as equally evil as the treatment of a migrant worker in Qatar.
Sure but for many people around the world, you don't need a whole list of injustices or criminality before it becomes logical to boycott a particular country. It could be just one thing: like the erosion of women's rights in the US. Or the murder of a beef eating Muslim because of Islamophobia in my country, India.
Just one of those things is enough because for people, their lived experience is the most important thing, and there cannot really be comparisons made.
I don't have any issue with the criticism being thrown at Qatar or even the calls for boycott. The problem is when it is not done for other countries because those countries' transgressions are viewed as not being bad enough--or not comprehensive enough as you are claiming here.
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Every nation has "transgressions", the point I was making is that the absurdity of hosting a WC in Qatar is about far more than just its migrant policy.
Because you are using transgressions by another country in yet another country (and they are practically endless) to undermine a protest at the world cup in Qatar. Its tenuous at best. Because an American in the past has injured an Iraqi, we cannot legitimately protest Qatar? It's especially weird as I just told you I got detained by the police for protesting that war. The people protesting this WC are to my mind also the people who would be on this unfortunate hypothetical Iraqi's side. It would hypocritical if I didn't have an issue with this WC.
It's just dumb, I'm sorry.
If all protests and such would be about the winter schedule and not just talking about human rights then I would agree. But when you constantly hear about human rights violations in Qatar as if it hasn't happened in or by previous hosts then it does sound very hypocritical.
I am undermining the protest against the world cup in Qatar? I am most likely going to be boycotting it myself. You have spectacularly missed the point I was making bringing up the example of Iraq. It wasn't about you, it was about why people in other countries might want to boycott a WC if it were held in the US or some such country. It was about the relative importance of issues to different people. But you choose to go ahead and get offended.
Oh, and if you can't conduct a conversation without using condescending words like dumb, I am sorry, carry on.
I think I did acknowledge your point. Equally, the point I was making was that there will be enough reasons for people to boycott tournaments in many other countries - there doesn't have to be an array of them before it reaches some acceptable threshold.
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I'm not offended, just baffled at the lack of logic.
People can boycott what they like, I fully support anyone with the courage of their convictions. It's you who is judging the validity of someone else's protest based on no facts.
I am at a loss. Is this some cultural western values argument? Is this seen as some western superior morals type thing? How the hell is disagreeing with human rights violations hypocritical?
The west has historically done the same thing and it's economy is based on oppression, slavery and abuse of the labour forces, but incrementally through protest and organisation it has slowly been challenged and in the main changed for the better. To want the same everywhere is entirely consistent and not at all hypocritical. It would be hypocritical to not allow it at home and to allow it elsewhere. And to assume these human rights protesters back the often barbaric foreign policies of western powers is a wild and I'll wager, an incorrect assumption. If that is indeed what is going on here?
You are too emotional to properly read what I have written and seem to have conflated my posts with what others were posting. Could ask you to point out where I was judging the validity of anyone's protest, but I really would like to stop engaging with you. Ta.