Whataboutism about the west is hardly an original thought in this thread to be fair.
Boycott The Qatar World Cup?
- Thread starter OldSchoolManc
- Start date
I don’t see how anyone can have an issue with Qatar hosting a World Cup due to their human rights record and calling it sports washing.
Before, during and after the 1966 World Cup (hosted in England as you all know) the British Government discriminated against Catholics and had a gerrymandering policy (poor human rights in regards to voting, housing, investments in areas of the country).
Catholics carried out peaceful civil rights protests in response to this. The British Government's response was to send their army to such protests and one such occasion shot 14 unarmed civilians dead on the street.
If individuals are going to call this World Cup sports washing then the 1966 competition should be considered the same.
I haven’t seen this being reported on any news media worldwide reporting on Qatar, therefore instead of everyone ridiculing the country they should give them a chance to host the World Cup and give them the opportunity to make any necessary changes to its government policy.
Before, during and after the 1966 World Cup (hosted in England as you all know) the British Government discriminated against Catholics and had a gerrymandering policy (poor human rights in regards to voting, housing, investments in areas of the country).
Catholics carried out peaceful civil rights protests in response to this. The British Government's response was to send their army to such protests and one such occasion shot 14 unarmed civilians dead on the street.
If individuals are going to call this World Cup sports washing then the 1966 competition should be considered the same.
I haven’t seen this being reported on any news media worldwide reporting on Qatar, therefore instead of everyone ridiculing the country they should give them a chance to host the World Cup and give them the opportunity to make any necessary changes to its government policy.
There you go again with your baseless assumptions. I'm.not emotional at all, just curious as to your motive.
You don't have to request the end of a dialogue, you just stop.
No worries, my friend!
That is absolutely wonderful, good on you.
Now if only some of these western countries stop invading over countries and killing innocent people outside of their own, that would be great.
You said you protested the war yourself, then how can you say a statement like that with a straight face? These countries have sought to keep their place clean while throwing shit everywhere else in the world for their own benefit. That should be called out everytime they try to act morally superior to anyone else.
I will be boycotting this WC principally due to the following;
1) Bribery - I also didn't watch 2018.
2) The moving it to winter when the promise and bid was totally based on a Summer event and the consequences it has had for domestic calenders.
I also have an issue around the Human Rights part, however I am not stupid enough to know that there aren't issues around other nations such as the US who have also taken liberties with human rights in relation to wars they have started etc.
Additionally, I may add that it is highly unlikely I will watch the Euros and WC moving forward anyway. The reason for this is that the Euros are absolutely dire until the Quater Final stages these days because it has 24 teams which means the group stage is just really an extension of qualifying, while the round after means even 3rd placed teams can qualify.
The next World Cup is moving to 48 so I expect the quality to be even lower than the current Euros. IMO even the WC has suffered since the move to 32 teams. 98 was probably the only one where it worked.
1) Bribery - I also didn't watch 2018.
2) The moving it to winter when the promise and bid was totally based on a Summer event and the consequences it has had for domestic calenders.
I also have an issue around the Human Rights part, however I am not stupid enough to know that there aren't issues around other nations such as the US who have also taken liberties with human rights in relation to wars they have started etc.
Additionally, I may add that it is highly unlikely I will watch the Euros and WC moving forward anyway. The reason for this is that the Euros are absolutely dire until the Quater Final stages these days because it has 24 teams which means the group stage is just really an extension of qualifying, while the round after means even 3rd placed teams can qualify.
The next World Cup is moving to 48 so I expect the quality to be even lower than the current Euros. IMO even the WC has suffered since the move to 32 teams. 98 was probably the only one where it worked.
It's not 1966 anymore though, is it?
How could any protest ever work if when arguing against human rights violations you also had to protest the same violatons across the entire globe.
You're completely bogged down in this hypothetical sharing of blame. It doesn't work in practice. Nothing could ever be achieved that way.
Never said it was.
By that logic let Qatar host the World Cup and carry out whatever human rights breaches they want, as nobody will care in 50 - 60 years time.
They're all bullsh*tters. Only thing these corporations care about is image and money.There's a degree of hypocrisy there, they're comfortable in doing business in that country?
https://me.hummel.net/sa-qa/
No, the context was entirely different in the post of mine you quoted. I was not arguing that the same person who protests about Qatar should also protest about every other injustice in the world. That would of course be impractical and impossible.
The point was on how different standards are applied to different countries, and how people will do all sorts of mental gymnastics to justify why that is OK. They will think some offences are worse than others not because they actually are (they might be) but because it suits their worldview. They don't challenge themselves enough about these assumptions. The point also was about how those different standards are skewed on the usual lines of West and the Rest.
I think you're missing the point, or just being churlish. Either way, no point in discussing it with you.
So you have replied to my initial post with a point you want to make, but their is no point in discussing it.
Makes sense.
Ok so in practice how does this work.
How should the average person in the UK, who is appalled by what goes on in Qatar generally and specifically this world cup express this viewpoint?
Without applying a different standard to their own country or anywhere else.
Express themselves in any way they want including a total boycott if they like - this has never been the point of debate. Not sure why people can't understand this
Not going to watch a single game of this shitshow WC and no one else should. But most people don't care as long as they are entertaint sadly.
I don't think there is much more I can do unfortunately apart from attending protests but I have not seen a single one to date.
I don't think there is much more I can do unfortunately apart from attending protests but I have not seen a single one to date.
I think you're struggling to answer the question.
Lets say somebody in this thread comes to post about Qatar, how they don't like what goes on there or the world cup happening there.
What do they have to do to avoid other posters, such as yourself, suggesting there's a double standard.
I'm not being churlish, I'm genuinely asking what that poster has to do, if he wants to criticise Qatar and not be told he has double standards.
The poster himself has said he may boycott the WC, and he was ok with my boycott, it's some hypothetical others that seem to be the issue, which is why I think we are only talking around what the issue might be.
But surely these oppressed catholics, as well as the maimed Iraqi, would want us to stand up for the oppressed workers and the disenfranchised?
I agree with the sentiment that invasions resulting in the deaths of innocents should cease immediately.
But as for the rest of your post - what on earth are you talking about - it makes no sense?
Bit of a straw-man argument. I have not said anyone has double standards for the sole reason of having criticized Qatar. The point throughout has been that when other countries are discussed, talk of boycotts are absent. Please note that I never picked on a poster and accused them of this. I was talking more about Cantona and the western media in general. It is, however, very likely that there will not be a thread on the caf about bocyotting a WC in the US because the crimes of that country are seen in a different light and a plethora of excuses are offered on why a WC there will be okay (including in this very thread).
People do care and through protests eventually NI got peace. Nobody at the time would have the right to say to the Civil Rights protesters, 'ah give over, you didn't care about x, y or z in 1890.'
Ah so that's why they have a terrible human rights record and show zero respect for certain peoples that they find beneath them, it's because they've never been given the opportunity to change and be better.
Amnesty have been at them for years.
Ok so what do you want Cantona to do in order to avoid being hypocritical. Everytime he mentions Qatar does he also have to namecheck Russia and US?
You've mentioned the western media being pro West a few times.
What's the mainstream media in the middle east like? Is it independent, neutral, fair minded? When criticising the US does it also remind everyone of its own failings?
It strikes me the only new dimension to these calls for protest is the outrage at the protest. There have been issues over the last few world cups, especially Brazil and Russia and the protests were met with indifference and shrugs, I don't remember the validity being questioned as there were, like now, obvious issues. This heartfelt pushback and call of hypocrisy is what's new. And maybe that's what's hypocritical. The poster above didn't even notice the discord and talk of boycotts at previous world cups and based his his indignation on that important lack of knowledge.
Cantona doesn't have to mention other countries when he mentions Qatar - again this suggestion has never been made. Maybe read what I am writing instead of what you want to.
Cantona can be equally critical of other countries if and when the opportunity arises. Obviously he hasn't in the past, and I would be pleasantly surprised if he did in the future.
Again - and I hope you understand it this time because I am not going to bother replying to the same mischaracterization again - I have not suggested that you or any other poster or Cantona or anybody in the western media has to simultaneously mention every other act of injustice occuring in the world while criticizing Qatar. However, it would be nice if they bring the same level of outrage regarding sporting events WHEN they are held in other countries with very questionable policies, past and present - including western countries who are not usually subjected to that treatment when the matter at hand is of hosting sporting events.
I thought I had to "just stop" to put an end to dialogue. Too bad one can't put staff on ignore.
If the calls is about the unfair and discriminating treatment the immigrant workers are receiving in Qatar, I am totally behind it and 100% support it, it is beyond comprehension that the treatment they face in Qatar in 2022 still exist.
But the media is twisting and trying to convince us that this number of deaths is out of proportion,
The migrants form about 89% of the population in Qatar, 25% from India, 12% from Nepal, 12% from Bangladesh and together these 3 countries form half the population and the Qataris form only 11%. The number of 6500 was obtained by the Guardian from the embassies of these countries for all type of deaths for these nationalities in Qatar and not only related to deaths to construction sites. I,e all deaths from accidents and health related issues. There were very few that was related directly to accidents in construction sites (only 3).
It is not difficult to read the numbers, 6500 immigrant died of a total population of more than 2 million immigrants in 9 years is not out of proportion, but falls in the natural numbers of mortality rates in Qatar which is better than that in the UK itself and far better than the mortality rates in India, Bangladesh and Nepal for the same age group 20-49 years old.
The deaths in the UK itself is higher in this age group, so why is it a concern only in Qatar? Should we investigate the UK also? the death rate of the same age group in the USA is much higher than both Qatar and the UK.
Forgot about this bit. Not exactly something to be get excited about, especially when compiled with the other problems.
He should have not taken millions From Nike promoting them for multiple years even though he knew about the human rights abuse for workers including children by this same corporation. The lesser evil at least he should have done after taking their money was to "call for a boycott" of Nike.
It's only dialogue if you reply. That post was to show your inaccurate assertion that there were no boycotts proposed for Russia.
The issue here is that the deaths occurred and the Qataris have been blocking attempts to investigate why, which isn't helping assuage concerns of visitors and viewers. They didn't think to reform their Kafala laws until 2018, a full 6 years after the WC was awarded to them and they realized it was becoming a PR disaster.
But you also simultaneously say "Please note that I never picked on a poster and accused them of this. I was talking more about Cantona and the western media in general."
It's becoming riddles.
But this the central problem. We have terrible things going on in Qatar. Cantona is one of many who have highlighted them. Yet you're concerned that at some point in the future Eric Cantona might possibly, hypothetically, not criticse the US or any other Western state. It's just a diversion from the main issue
On top of this its very easy to suggest others are hypocritical. Because we all are.
In a thread about Qatar you've criticised the weatern media a number of times. You haven't mentioned the media situation in Qatar at all. Which we know is far, far worse. How come?
I could say "hey, yeah western media has its problems, but so does media all over the world. Qatar media in fact is as bad as it gets. How come you haven't mentiobed them when talking about media bias. It's a double standard"
I wouldn't because that's tiresome whataboutism. You don't have to balance out your criticism for me.
Too much common sense here.
Qatar and the middle east has appalling human rights record. It should be pointed out. But it's hypocritical to talk of boycott when the Americans and the UK have destroyed a few countries by bombing and invading them and getting away without any consequences.
Unfortunately, lots of people like to live in the past…. and let’s omit minor details like Bloody Sunday being 6 years after the 66 World Cup, but hey.
People have also historically protested these wars as well. Just because the governments ignored them doesnt make being a certain nationally and having your country act against your beliefs make you hypocritical.
Please check the post that my comment was in reference to. Your repeating what I am trying to say.