Bowyer transfer listed!

Reading thru all these posts you could almost reach the conclusion that most people think racism is bad, but extreme violence is fine as that aspect seems to be a side issue.

If Bowyer and Woodgate were innocent, then they shouldn't have involved themselves in the initial chase.

By the way - Jo, get your cheque book out, you might get a good deal here.......
 
Originally posted by Livvie20:
<strong>Reading thru all these posts you could almost reach the conclusion that most people think racism is bad, but extreme violence is fine as that aspect seems to be a side issue.

If Bowyer and Woodgate were innocent, then they shouldn't have involved themselves in the initial chase.

By the way - Jo, get your cheque book out, you might get a good deal here.......</strong><hr></blockquote>

AGREED 100% :)
 
Originally posted by marchingontogether:
<strong>Yes! The jury sat for 22 weeks and came to that conclusion. Who am I to argue with that?</strong><hr></blockquote>

Did you agree with the jury who decided the Stephen Lawrence case?

Before you start on the race issue again though I'll say that perhaps we should stop and consider that it's possibly as a result of the perceived racism and injustices against the ethnic minorities such as in the Lawrence case, that the race card, as it's being termed, is being played.

The Lawrence case and the recent riots have made it all the more possible to play the race card.

Britain isn't a racist society, but it does have racist elements within it. The majority of people are sensitive to such matters, hence the emergence of the race card as a vehicle to prosecution.

Perhaps the victims in this case feel this is the only way to get justice.
 
What if that kid had died? Could have easily happened-imagine the repercussions to that. Leeds fans should be happy Bowyer's on his way out.
 
It comes as no suprise that the case involving Bowyer and Woodgate has generated a lot of talk on here and in the newspapers. What has suprised me is the witchunt and refusal by people to accept the jurys verdict - I suppose in hindsight I can see it was never going to please everybody. Football is an emotive subject and we all have are favourites - having said that I have really tried to be as unbiased as possible throughout the trial and still feel I am not letting the fact I follow Leeds United to unfairly influence my thoughts on the subject.
The main issue here is somebody was badly beaten and put in hospital. It really does not matter, or it shouldn't, whether he or his attackers were black, white, Asian, Chinese or any other colour or creed - it should also not matter whether either party was rich and famous or poor and unknown.
Sadly the newspapers would have us believe it does matter. I question their motives - are they in the business of reporting impartially and fairly or are they here to make as much money by selling as many newspapers as possible? I go for the second option - the only people that have had access to all the evidence and heard every word spoken about the trial are the 12 members of the jury. It has to be remembered also they are ordinary members of the public with no connection to the victim or the accused, they do not have stories to sell and in no way can make money from acting as jury members.
They sat for 22 weeks and then took 4 days to decide the verdicts - I tend to believe their version rather than the fanciful versions the newspapers have told in order to make money.
There will probably be no agreement on here of what happened or what didn't and I suppose really we don't care - what I do care about is this does not get blown out of all proportion.
Yesterday Lee Fleet, a white 14 yr old schoolboy was beaten senseless and his head kicked like a football by 5 to 7 Asians. They have not been caught as yet and police are treating it as a racially motivated attack. I wonder how many people will remember this event in even a weeks time and I wonder what compensation Lee will get.

The Najeib lawyers are advising him to sue and will obviously take their cut for their services - I hope Safraz continues to recover and spends his money wisely - it has cost him a lot to get it.

As far as Woodgate is concerned he is moving to live in Leeds and will do his community service with his £100,000+ fine going to the innercity community too. He will get on and resume his career having learned a very hard lesson.
Bowyer should stop being an arse and pay his fine, get fit and get playing...for Leeds!

If I have offended anybody with my views on this subject I apologise.
 
At the end of the day no one knows whether alleged racist bastard Bowyer part in the brawl was racially motivated or not...

But as been pointed out, the bloke got a pasting big time and the lack of evidence at individuals doesn't mean they played no part - it seems pretty clear that they were involved..

Yeah, I'd imagine most of us have been in brawls...but 4 on 1 beating the crap out of someone rendered defenseless?? That shouldn't be happening....

And for those who have called someone a "paki bastard" etc in anger...but oh no, are not racist in any shape or form, why didn't you just call them a bastard then?

'kin nobends
 
Originally posted by Davo:
<strong>

Yeah, I'd imagine most of us have been in brawls...but 4 on 1 beating the crap out of someone rendered defenseless?? That shouldn't be happening....

</strong><hr></blockquote>

IT WASNT FOUR ON ONE!!!!!!!!! :p ;)

And Livvie, u reckon I should buy him? how does £150 sound?
 
Originally posted by Davo:
At the end of the day no one knows whether alleged racist bastard Bowyer part in the brawl was racially motivated or not...
the pertinent words being alledged and no one knows...but still you have to get personal and call him a bastard :rolleyes:

But as been pointed out, the bloke got a pasting big time and the lack of evidence at individuals doesn't mean they played no part - it seems pretty clear that they were involved..

Yet again you start off OK and then lose it...surely you must go on the evidence Davo...if Clifford was found guilty then surely if the evidence was there others would be too...even Sarfrazs brother said he could not put Bowyer or Woodgate at the scene - so how can you?

Yeah, I'd imagine most of us have been in brawls...but 4 on 1 beating the crap out of someone rendered defenseless?? That shouldn't be happening....

true it shouldnt happen...and according to Najeib and the other evidence there was one person there doing the kicking and there were actually 5 of Najeibs party there too.

And for those who have called someone a "paki bastard" etc in anger...but oh no, are not racist in any shape or form, why didn't you just call them a bastard then?

The police and the prosecution agreed that the word Paki was not used and therefore it was not used in any way in the trial
 
Marchy

Wasn't wassiname convicted on evidence re the bitemark? Clear evidence that he was involved...

Such conclusive evidence was not available against the others....doesn't mean they weren't involved....you must have some doubts yourself??
 
Originally posted by Davo:
<strong>Marchy

Wasn't wassiname convicted on evidence re the bitemark? Clear evidence that he was involved...

Such conclusive evidence was not available against the others....doesn't mean they weren't involved....you must have some doubts yourself??</strong><hr></blockquote>

Clifford was resposible for the bite and other evidence proves he carried out the beating. No evidence was offered against the others and as I said Najeib could not say that Woodgate or Bowyer were at the scene. What more do you want?
I trust the jury to have carefully considered all possibilities and there verdict is based on the facts.
Surely thats enough.

By the way does my FAO Marchy thread not get a response from you?

;)
 
Originally posted by marchingontogether:
<strong>

Clifford was resposible for the bite and other evidence proves he carried out the beating. No evidence was offered against the others and as I said Najeib could not say that Woodgate or Bowyer were at the scene. What more do you want?
I trust the jury to have carefully considered all possibilities and there verdict is based on the facts.
Surely thats enough.

By the way does my FAO Marchy thread not get a response from you?

;) </strong><hr></blockquote>

So your saying that Clifford did everything? And that you don't think the others were involved...the lies, the "celebrations" were all innocent..

And didn't you say the lads mates were there? They watched him take this hiding from one bloke yeah?

I'll have a look at the other thread now...
 
Originally posted by Davo:
<strong>

And for those who have called someone a "paki bastard" etc in anger...but oh no, are not racist in any shape or form, why didn't you just call them a bastard then?

'kin nobends</strong><hr></blockquote>

You never called anyone a bastard?

So, as I've have called people paki bastards, black bastards, ugly bastards, cockney bastards, thick bastards etc etc, I am a racist?
 
Originally posted by marchingontogether:
<strong>It comes as no suprise that the case involving Bowyer and Woodgate has generated a lot of talk on here and in the newspapers. What has suprised me is the witchunt and refusal by people to accept the jurys verdict - I suppose in hindsight I can see it was never going to please everybody. Football is an emotive subject and we all have are favourites - having said that I have really tried to be as unbiased as possible throughout the trial and still feel I am not letting the fact I follow Leeds United to unfairly influence my thoughts on the subject.
The main issue here is somebody was badly beaten and put in hospital. It really does not matter, or it shouldn't, whether he or his attackers were black, white, Asian, Chinese or any other colour or creed - it should also not matter whether either party was rich and famous or poor and unknown.
Sadly the newspapers would have us believe it does matter. I question their motives - are they in the business of reporting impartially and fairly or are they here to make as much money by selling as many newspapers as possible? I go for the second option - the only people that have had access to all the evidence and heard every word spoken about the trial are the 12 members of the jury. It has to be remembered also they are ordinary members of the public with no connection to the victim or the accused, they do not have stories to sell and in no way can make money from acting as jury members.
They sat for 22 weeks and then took 4 days to decide the verdicts - I tend to believe their version rather than the fanciful versions the newspapers have told in order to make money.
There will probably be no agreement on here of what happened or what didn't and I suppose really we don't care - what I do care about is this does not get blown out of all proportion.
Yesterday Lee Fleet, a white 14 yr old schoolboy was beaten senseless and his head kicked like a football by 5 to 7 Asians. They have not been caught as yet and police are treating it as a racially motivated attack. I wonder how many people will remember this event in even a weeks time and I wonder what compensation Lee will get.

The Najeib lawyers are advising him to sue and will obviously take their cut for their services - I hope Safraz continues to recover and spends his money wisely - it has cost him a lot to get it.

As far as Woodgate is concerned he is moving to live in Leeds and will do his community service with his £100,000+ fine going to the innercity community too. He will get on and resume his career having learned a very hard lesson.
Bowyer should stop being an arse and pay his fine, get fit and get playing...for Leeds!

If I have offended anybody with my views on this subject I apologise.</strong><hr></blockquote>

Marching, if you think Bowyer and Wwoodgate are victims of a witchunt, then try to imagine if it was Keano and Beckham in Bowyer's and Woodgate's place......
 
...didn't one of the investigating officers say that he suspected race was a motive, and it was soley the prosecutions decision to remove it from consideration?
 
Originally posted by 9od:
<strong>...didn't one of the investigating officers say that he suspected race was a motive, and it was soley the prosecutions decision to remove it from consideration?</strong><hr></blockquote>

yeah live on tv right after the (joke) verdict.
 
No one will ever know if it was racially motivated or not. However th original trial spent 6 weeks with no jury...just the lawyers and teh judge determining if it was racially motivated or not as the charge of GBH with racially motivated intent is higher. They came to the conclusion it wasn't racially motivated as there was no evidence to suggest this. The only evidence they had was that someone in a white shirt when the original brawl took chase yelled 'do you want some paki?'. However the Najeib witnesses said that the person in the white shirt was not part of the chase or fight and so were not even sure if we was with the Bowyer/Woodgate group. Thus they ruled out any racist intent by the chasing group as they hadn't expressed any racial intent.

This could have been the right decision or the wrong one. I don't agree that it can be clear cut either way. However a judge and lawyers spent a considerable amount of time and tax payers money determining this. The police officer is entitled to his opinion still but the judge/lawyers did not hold the same opinion.

As for this whole Bowyer transfer mess it's unbelievable that after the crap Leeds fans have taken for having him in their team for the last 18 months that once he is cleared of charges (rightly or wrongly...who really knows what happened?) that he will be sold by the club.

Can someone wake me up when this nightmare that is suppporting Leeds United ends? Because that's all it feels like these days :(
 
Originally posted by ChampionsElect:
<strong>

You never called anyone a bastard?

So, as I've have called people paki bastards, black bastards, ugly bastards, cockney bastards, thick bastards etc etc, I am a racist?</strong><hr></blockquote>


I've never called anyone a paki bastard no...

But then I don't use people's race as a tool to knock them..
 
Originally posted by Davo:
<strong>


I've never called anyone a paki bastard no...

But then I don't use people's race as a tool to knock them..</strong><hr></blockquote>

That's good of you.

But does it make me and other who has said things like paki bastard etc racists?
 
Originally posted by ChampionsElect:
<strong>

That's good of you.

But does it make me and other who has said things like paki bastard etc racists?</strong><hr></blockquote>


It's not good...its just normal decent behaviour

You're obviously racist to some extent to think of saying "paki bastard"

Why did his race have to come into it?
 
Originally posted by Davo:
<strong>


It's not good...its just normal decent behaviour

You're obviously racist to some extent to think of saying "paki bastard"

Why did his race have to come into it?</strong><hr></blockquote>

It doesn't come into it, it just stupid things one say when one is arguing. Just like I've called people ugly cnuts lots of times when arguing.
 
Originally posted by ChampionsElect:
<strong>

It doesn't come into it, it just stupid things one say when one is arguing. Just like I've called people ugly cnuts lots of times when arguing.</strong><hr></blockquote>

Yeah a stupid racist remark made cos you were angry....

Great excuse that eh? I'm not racist, I just act like one when I've got a mood on..

Why was such a remark in your mind?

Pathetic
 
Originally posted by Davo:
<strong>

Yeah a stupid racist remark made cos you were angry....

Great excuse that eh? I'm not racist, I just act like one when I've got a mood on..

Why was such a remark in your mind?

Pathetic</strong><hr></blockquote>

That must mean that I hate people from Scotland, Ireland, Wales, Liverpool, Stockport, the North East, Birmingham, London, France, Italy, US, Australia, South Africa, Germany and Skegness, as well as everyone from Pakistan and all blacks......

You think what you want, but to me it doesn't matter what race or colour you are - I treat everyone the same. I don't think a racist does....
 
Davo:

Don't agree with the racially-oriented name-calling myself (and won't necessarily apply it to Bowyer) but I note that people (myself included) occasionally get very specific with the insults when really irritated with someone (such as the driver who cuts me off in traffic or the a-hole who takes a reserved parking place). Often the insults relate to anything one can identify about the other--including sex, sexual orientation, race, religion, geographical location of home, or any other info that can be found by observation of the person, license plate, bumper stickers, or other source of info. After all, the primary purpose of an insult to to aggravate or provoke the other party (usually as an individual and not as a member of the specified group). Under the circumstances, would that render the irate party a racist or bigot? Probably not--unless one finds a track record of actions to support the more extreme view.

Hence, the mere fact that one calls another a name (without more) would tend to lead me away from branding the person "racist," "xenophobic," "religiously intolerant" or whatever the epithet used might have indicated.
 
Originally posted by FresnoBob:
<strong>Davo:

Don't agree with the racially-oriented name-calling myself (and won't necessarily apply it to Bowyer) but I note that people (myself included) occasionally get very specific with the insults when really irritated with someone (such as the driver who cuts me off in traffic or the a-hole who takes a reserved parking place). Often the insults relate to anything one can identify about the other--including sex, sexual orientation, race, religion, geographical location of home, or any other info that can be found by observation of the person, license plate, bumper stickers, or other source of info. After all, the primary purpose of an insult to to aggravate or provoke the other party (usually as an individual and not as a member of the specified group). Under the circumstances, would that render the irate party a racist or bigot? Probably not--unless one finds a track record of actions to support the more extreme view.

Hence, the mere fact that one calls another a name (without more) would tend to lead me away from branding the person "racist," "xenophobic," "religiously intolerant" or whatever the epithet used might have indicated.</strong><hr></blockquote>

Thank you Bob - exactly my point. Wish I was as good with words as you are!
 
I'm sure Davo has never typed these words on this forum "Manc cnuts". But if he did, that's different right? :rolleyes:

Manc = 1st four letters of Manchester
Paki = 1st four letters of Pakistan

BTW, before you start calling me a racist, don't bother. I have far too many friends from all over the world of many different nationalities, colours and creeds that would jump to my defence and render your comment unfounded.
 
Originally posted by True Treble Reds:
<strong>I'm sure Davo has never typed these words on this forum "Manc cnuts". But if he did, that's different right? :rolleyes: </strong><hr></blockquote>

Awaiting some 'hilariously witty' response from Mr Dignified now.....
 
Originally posted by elmo:
<strong>No one will ever know if it was racially motivated or not. However th original trial spent 6 weeks with no jury...just the lawyers and teh judge determining if it was racially motivated or not as the charge of GBH with racially motivated intent is higher. They came to the conclusion it wasn't racially motivated as there was no evidence to suggest this. The only evidence they had was that someone in a white shirt when the original brawl took chase yelled 'do you want some paki?'. However the Najeib witnesses said that the person in the white shirt was not part of the chase or fight and so were not even sure if we was with the Bowyer/Woodgate group. Thus they ruled out any racist intent by the chasing group as they hadn't expressed any racial intent.

This could have been the right decision or the wrong one. I don't agree that it can be clear cut either way. However a judge and lawyers spent a considerable amount of time and tax payers money determining this. The police officer is entitled to his opinion still but the judge/lawyers did not hold the same opinion.

As for this whole Bowyer transfer mess it's unbelievable that after the crap Leeds fans have taken for having him in their team for the last 18 months that once he is cleared of charges (rightly or wrongly...who really knows what happened?) that he will be sold by the club.

Can someone wake me up when this nightmare that is suppporting Leeds United ends? Because that's all it feels like these days :( </strong><hr></blockquote>


Actually, your nightmare began when you made "that" enquiry about Denis Irwin...

<img src="graemlins/lol.gif" border="0" alt="[Laugh Out Loud]" />
 
Originally posted by Marcus:
<strong>


Actually, your nightmare began when you made "that" enquiry about Denis Irwin...

<img src="graemlins/lol.gif" border="0" alt="[Laugh Out Loud]" /> </strong><hr></blockquote>

<img src="graemlins/lol.gif" border="0" alt="[Laugh Out Loud]" />
 
Originally posted by Marcus:
<strong>Actually, your nightmare began when you made "that" enquiry about Denis Irwin...
<img src="graemlins/lol.gif" border="0" alt="[Laugh Out Loud]" /> </strong><hr></blockquote>
Ouch ... <img src="graemlins/lol.gif" border="0" alt="[Laugh Out Loud]" />
 
I think it should be taken into account that someone who is called a "paki" or "black" bastard by those who aren't racist may have been called that before by real racists. They also come from minorities who have suffered from racism for a long time. Obviously it's going to be a major sticking point with them.
 
Surely there are a number of seperate issues here.

1) Presumption of innocence. If they were not convicted then there obviously wasn't enough evidence to convict them beyond a reasonable doubt - end of criminal story.

2) The racist thing. Racist language is racist. It doesn't neccesarily make you Vlad The Impaler or Hitler but it is a form of racism. Just because the courts had no evidence of a racist motivated attack doesn't mean that the issue should be of no concern to others. Probably only those involved know if racism was a factor. To be a racist attack presumably the main motivation for the attck must be race. Nme throwing during an altercation doesn't neccesarily make it a racist attack. No doubt we will hear more in the civil trial/action.

3)Civil action is not dependant upon proof beyond a reasonable doubt but is judged on balance of probability (i.e. better than 50/50). What will everyone's (FA, Leeds etc) reaction be if either of Bowyer or Woodgate are convicted of something serious in civil court?

4) The moral highground. There seems little doubt that there are behaviour problems that Bowyer in particular is failing to address by telling the club to feck off with their fine. All players are subject to club discipline for things like going out on the piss when in training. I think that a fine alone is insufficient to address the problems but it might show the club and the world at large that there was behaviour that is now regreted. This isn't neccesarily an admission of guilt re. the assault but an admission that he should never have put himself in a situation where this could arise and he/they should never have lied to the police.

Public figures have to accept that if you want the benefits ($ and fame etc) then there is a price to pay. Your privacy can disappear and you are often held to a higher moral code than if you were one of the sweating masses again. IMHO Bowyer is digging a hole for himself.
 
Originally posted by Wibble:
Surely there are a number of seperate issues here.

1) Presumption of innocence. If they were not convicted then there obviously wasn't enough evidence to convict them beyond a reasonable doubt - end of criminal story.

True although too many people in this and other threads are making a big issue of Bowyer's innocence. The fact is he was found "not guilty" (not necessarily the same thing as innocence) but the best a jury can do and I don't hear people proposing alternatives to the current system.

2) The racist thing. Racist language is racist. It doesn't neccesarily make you Vlad The Impaler or Hitler but it is a form of racism. Just because the courts had no evidence of a racist motivated attack doesn't mean that the issue should be of no concern to others. Probably only those involved know if racism was a factor. To be a racist attack presumably the main motivation for the attck must be race. Nme throwing during an altercation doesn't neccesarily make it a racist attack. No doubt we will hear more in the civil trial/action.

Again, we must follow the legal line here and as the courts failed to find any reasonable grounds for leveling assault charges on racially motivated grounds we can conclude that such grounds did not exist, or were not clearly discernable from the evidence available. As such racism was not considered in the trial and should not be considered in the post trial analysis/debate as the powerful emotions it stirs risk distorting the whole issue into a moralistic argument.

3)Civil action is not dependant upon proof beyond a reasonable doubt but is judged on balance of probability (i.e. better than 50/50). What will everyone's (FA, Leeds etc) reaction be if either of Bowyer or Woodgate are convicted of something serious in civil court?

I unfortunately <img src="graemlins/smirk.gif" border="0" alt="[Smirk]" /> don't get to read the British tabloids any more so can only judge the mood of the case from responses in here, but am assuming that the hacks are in a feeding frenzy at the moment. The furore surrounding both the mis trial and the eventual adjudication are likely to colour any civil suit so badly that the courts will find it difficult to control the trial and as such I do not think any major judgements will be made, other than possible awards for medical compensation.

I believe Leeds' stance now is an attempt to distance themselves from the whole issue and possibly avoid further damage to the club's image from association with a civil suit. I do not think however that Leeds or the FA would do anything based on the outcome of a civil suit for fear of further reprisals from the players' lawyers, which would just perpetuate the situation. Disrepute charges could only be brought by club or FA if proven horrific events beyond those in the original trial came to light and I'm sure the tabloids would already be trumpeting this if it existed (Hell, Becks can't even buy his missus a pair of thermal knickers to keep out the cold without it making the front page).


4) The moral highground. There seems little doubt that there are behaviour problems that Bowyer in particular is failing to address by telling the club to feck off with their fine. All players are subject to club discipline for things like going out on the piss when in training. I think that a fine alone is insufficient to address the problems but it might show the club and the world at large that there was behaviour that is now regreted. This isn't neccesarily an admission of guilt re. the assault but an admission that he should never have put himself in a situation where this could arise and he/they should never have lied to the police.

Public figures have to accept that if you want the benefits ($ and fame etc) then there is a price to pay. Your privacy can disappear and you are often held to a higher moral code than if you were one of the sweating masses again. IMHO Bowyer is digging a hole for himself.

True, I feel the poor deluded soul is beginning to believe his own bullshit and the words of his lawyers. On the night in question he has admitted to being out on the lash and getting involved at least initially in the barney before staggering drunkenly through the streets of Leeds, he then assisted in covering up the evidence and lied to the police, the courts and the club.

If I, and I assume any of us, had done half of these things and it had come to the attention of my employers by dragging the companies name through the mud I would not expect a second chance. To be offered a fine of a months salary as a way of showing some remorse would seem more reasonable than the actions had probably deserved (credit is perhaps due to Woodgate in some small measure for agreeing to pay the 2 months and asking for it to be used charitably, a good gesture from Leeds to).

I was surprised last year by how little the whole affair affected his game whilst Woodgate fell to pieces and was not sure whether it showed a moral fortitude and reassurance from his innocence or simply that he was too thick for the depth of shit he was in to have registered with him, I still fear it is the latter.
 
Originally posted by ChampionsElect:
<strong>

Marching, if you think Bowyer and Wwoodgate are victims of a witchunt, then try to imagine if it was Keano and Beckham in Bowyer's and Woodgate's place......</strong><hr></blockquote>


Good point CE but at the end of the day they too would start off innocent and until proved otherwise that is how they would stay.
 
Originally posted by True Treble Reds:
<strong>I'm sure Davo has never typed these words on this forum "Manc cnuts". But if he did, that's different right? :rolleyes:

Manc = 1st four letters of Manchester
Paki = 1st four letters of Pakistan

BTW, before you start calling me a racist, don't bother. I have far too many friends from all over the world of many different nationalities, colours and creeds that would jump to my defence and render your comment unfounded.</strong><hr></blockquote>

You think thats the same do you?

To my knowledge Mancs haven't been the victims of racism based on the colour of their skin..

Does being called a Manc grate in a similar manner to "Paki"? A word associated with hatred?
 
Originally posted by FresnoBob:
<strong>Davo:

Don't agree with the racially-oriented name-calling myself (and won't necessarily apply it to Bowyer) but I note that people (myself included) occasionally get very specific with the insults when really irritated with someone (such as the driver who cuts me off in traffic or the a-hole who takes a reserved parking place). Often the insults relate to anything one can identify about the other--including sex, sexual orientation, race, religion, geographical location of home, or any other info that can be found by observation of the person, license plate, bumper stickers, or other source of info. After all, the primary purpose of an insult to to aggravate or provoke the other party (usually as an individual and not as a member of the specified group). Under the circumstances, would that render the irate party a racist or bigot? Probably not--unless one finds a track record of actions to support the more extreme view.

Hence, the mere fact that one calls another a name (without more) would tend to lead me away from branding the person "racist," "xenophobic," "religiously intolerant" or whatever the epithet used might have indicated.</strong><hr></blockquote>

Yes Bob I can see your point, and can even see where 'kin HitlerElect is coming from in that he just abuses anyone he feels like with what he perceives to be the most hurtful language he can conjuer up...

It worries me tho that seemingly intelligent people who deplore racism on the whole can revert to racist language in the blink of an eye if angered!

Words such as "paki" etc have a background, they have to be treated differently from "Ginger this" "Manc that" IMO, due to the hatred and intolerance that accompany them
 
The fact is that I have sympathy with the victim and I couldn't give a crap about Bowyer and Woodgate after their actions. What I do care about is the club I support (ie Leeds). The actual club itslef and the team are on the brink of dissaray because of the actions of two of the players. Depsite the dodgy book Leeds have done the best they could in a situation that should have been resolved in April at least before the Mirror caused the retrial. Now that the trial is over it is just going from bad to worse.

Opposition fans hate O'Leary and his whinging and hell, he annoys me at times too but they have to admit that if it was their club that was under this much pressure and strain they would be concerned and annoyed too.

DOL and Ridsdale have put a lot of effort and (accordinging to many sources) money up to debt to build a decent squad and play good football but I can't see any of that promise being accomplished now with this mess. And that's the pity of the whole thing. They and the rest of the squad didn't ask for Bowyer and Woodgate to go out and do what they did yet they now have to deal with the shit that's being thrown now.

As for the nightmare starting when Man Utd bought Cantona that's before my time....the first nightmare of my Leeds United supporting career was Jimmy Floyd Hasslebaink asking for his transfer :rolleyes:
 
Originally posted by rz99:
<strong>I think it should be taken into account that someone who is called a "paki" or "black" bastard by those who aren't racist may have been called that before by real racists. They also come from minorities who have suffered from racism for a long time. Obviously it's going to be a major sticking point with them.</strong><hr></blockquote>


Exactly..

Its probably easier for the abuser to distinguish between the context...
 
Originally posted by ChampionsElect:
<strong>

That must mean that I hate people from Scotland, Ireland, Wales, Liverpool, Stockport, the North East, Birmingham, London, France, Italy, US, Australia, South Africa, Germany and Skegness, as well as everyone from Pakistan and all blacks......

You think what you want, but to me it doesn't matter what race or colour you are - I treat everyone the same. I don't think a racist does....</strong><hr></blockquote>


Can you not see a difference? Try to look beyond your own opinions that calling someone a paki is on a level with calling someone ugly...

You've got an issue with this cos you were charged with racism for beating up an Asian whilst calling him a "fecking paki"...can you see why this was "misinterpreted"?
 
Originally posted by Bury Red:
<strong>Again, we must follow the legal line here and as the courts failed to find any reasonable grounds for leveling assault charges on racially motivated grounds we can conclude that such grounds did not exist, or were not clearly discernable from the evidence available. As such racism was not considered in the trial and should not be considered in the post trial analysis/debate as the powerful emotions it stirs risk distorting the whole issue into a moralistic argument.</strong>

Sounds good to me. I haven't heard any real evidence that this was a racist attack. It does make better headlines though doesn't it :rolleyes:

<strong>I unfortunately <img src="graemlins/smirk.gif" border="0" alt="[Smirk]" /> don't get to read the British tabloids any more so can only judge the mood of the case from responses in here, but am assuming that the hacks are in a feeding frenzy at the moment. The furore surrounding both the mis trial and the eventual adjudication are likely to colour any civil suit so badly that the courts will find it difficult to control the trial and as such I do not think any major judgements will be made, other than possible awards for medical compensation.</strong>

I share your <img src="graemlins/smirk.gif" border="0" alt="[Smirk]" /> re. the tabloids - what a loss :rolleyes:

<strong>I believe Leeds' stance now is an attempt to distance themselves from the whole issue and possibly avoid further damage to the club's image from association with a civil suit. I do not think however that Leeds or the FA would do anything based on the outcome of a civil suit for fear of further reprisals from the players' lawyers, which would just perpetuate the situation. Disrepute charges could only be brought by club or FA if proven horrific events beyond those in the original trial came to light and I'm sure the tabloids would already be trumpeting this if it existed (Hell, Becks can't even buy his missus a pair of thermal knickers to keep out the cold without it making the front page).</strong>

I'm sure Leeds are just trying to cover their own arses. The revelations about on of the Leeds directors advising the players to lie seems to have sunk without trace. Sounds very much like perverting the course of justice to me if proven.

<strong> True, I feel the poor deluded soul is beginning to believe his own bullshit and the words of his lawyers. On the night in question he has admitted to being out on the lash and getting involved at least initially in the barney before staggering drunkenly through the streets of Leeds, he then assisted in covering up the evidence and lied to the police, the courts and the club.

If I, and I assume any of us, had done half of these things and it had come to the attention of my employers by dragging the companies name through the mud I would not expect a second chance. To be offered a fine of a months salary as a way of showing some remorse would seem more reasonable than the actions had probably deserved (credit is perhaps due to Woodgate in some small measure for agreeing to pay the 2 months and asking for it to be used charitably, a good gesture from Leeds to).

I was surprised last year by how little the whole affair affected his game whilst Woodgate fell to pieces and was not sure whether it showed a moral fortitude and reassurance from his innocence or simply that he was too thick for the depth of shit he was in to have registered with him, I still fear it is the latter. </strong>

All true. Wasn't Boyers nickname at one of his previous clubs Village (as in idiot)? It is a risky game he is playing. Unless he backs down or a compromise is found at Leeds he could either end up much richer at a good club or kicking his heels at a crap club - which might mean the end of his top flight career.<hr></blockquote>