Wasn’t it Ashley Cole who shot the academy kid with air rifle ?
BLM in the Prem
- Thread starter Wumminator
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I'm just going to borrow this quote from reddit:
All you're accomplishing by going "all lives matter" in response to "black lives matter" is coming off as an asshole.
Also, @lolok , you need to stop listening to far-right propaganda. Antifa isn't a terrorist group, it's a movement. The political views of the people in it vary from "centrist" to "anarcho-communist." Literally the only thing you can say about the Antifa movement that is true for all those who are part of it is that they're anti-fascist. This is not a defense of the violent loons that saw the protests at their chance to kick-start a revolution, because they undeniably did harm to both the BLM and the Antifa movements, not to mention hurting the legitimacy of the protests in the eyes of many.
Do some people think it's an actual valid criticism of BLM to state that 'all lives matter'? I mean, of course they all bloody matter - you're not exactly telling us something astonishingly original, profound, or deathly damaging to the movement and its credibility; instead it's the droning and predictable sloganeering equivalent of telling us that 'Beanz Meanz Heinz'. Thanks a fraggin' bunch for the 'enlightenment', Captain Obvious & company...
Hari Kondabolu's Problem with Apu explains this quite well. You may not agree with his points, but he raised some good ones.
I don't know if it's been posted already but the BLM thing came from a push from players rather than being a marketing thing. That's not too say the PL didn't see a financial merit but it isn't how it originated.
According to Mussa Okwonga it was mainly Troy Deeney and Wes Morgan.
On ethnic minorities in management I always think it's odd when people bring up individual cases as if it proves anything.
Just look at the ethnic diversity of players in the top leagues vs managers.
There's clearly an issue.
Whatever the cause, whether it's the old boys club getting their mates jobs or a lack of encouragement of certain types of players to take the badges by the hierarchy etc, there's no denying there's a disparity in the numbers and it needs to be addressed.
According to Mussa Okwonga it was mainly Troy Deeney and Wes Morgan.
On ethnic minorities in management I always think it's odd when people bring up individual cases as if it proves anything.
Just look at the ethnic diversity of players in the top leagues vs managers.
There's clearly an issue.
Whatever the cause, whether it's the old boys club getting their mates jobs or a lack of encouragement of certain types of players to take the badges by the hierarchy etc, there's no denying there's a disparity in the numbers and it needs to be addressed.
Whilst history would suggest that there is a problem (we're coming from a place where there clearly wasn't a level playing field), it's difficult to suggest there's an issue purely because of the total number of black managers and comparing it to the number of black players.
How many prospective black managers are applying for jobs? How many have their badges? How many get interviewed? Who are they losing out to?
It's a hard discussion without the data. Let's say we had the likes of Wright, Cole, Barnes, Ferdinand, Ince, Campbell etc constantly applying for jobs but losing out to unknown ex pros from the lower leagues (bearing in mind a top player doesn't necessarily make a top manager); then maybe you might start to think "hmmm this is curious..".
But without the data it's hard to know. Someone earlier pointed out that it's sometimes about who you know - I'm inclined to agree, but then that in itself is probably likely to lean towards white ex pros as they are more likely to 'know' influential people (as the existing influential people of a certain age are white).
I think with time (generations) things will change, I think with each passing generation people are less likely to view race as a dividing factor.
I touched on what you are saying to a degree in the second part. I'm aware we don't have the data but what I'm saying is the causes should be investigated as something is discouraging ethnic minorities from becoming managers as they are under represented.
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Why does this matter? It's the same problem regardless. Take a look at maybe a more obvious example such as the lack of representation of women (especially historically but it is still an ongoing problem) in STEM subjects. That's an issue that is both women being overlooked and many not even pursuing it as a career in the first place. These two factors are not mutually exclusive, they coexist and reinforce each other.
To be quite blunt, it is unfathomable that people can look at the diversity of the playing field, and then look at the almost entirely monochrome coaching benches in comparison and not conclude that there is a serious problem here.
The pursuit does matter quite a bit because males and females have shown different interests in past and present. Please note I am not taking about black managers because I know plenty want to continue careers in football. I believe they tried to do an studies in places like Scandinavia to ID men and women choices and they noticed different subject interests and job interests. People just assume that men and woman are exactly the same and will make the same choices when given the chance despite plenty of statistical evidence to the contrary.
But going back to black management, yes I am sure many do want to be in the coaching staff. I need to see what the ratio of black player: non black player and black coach t : non black coach is to get a better idea.
Just an aside: one of Trump's colleagues recently talked in favour of legislation preventing non-white people from studying STEM subjects. Jesus H. Christ. 
Did the studies suggest this was genetic or cultural? There’s a vital distinction between the two. In a world where men have dominated many subjects because of culture/patriarchy, then of course women are going to be less interested in it than the average man. It’s a reflection of the society they live in. In research women have also been shown to support disparities in pay between men and women - are we to draw the conclusion that a gender pay gap is ‘natural’? That would be absurd.
Studies have been shown where boys and girls have different preferences even as infants so it's hard to say really.
I thought they were trying to smash the patriarchy? The only thing society can do is provide equality of opportunity and see what happens. Gender equality is much more higher priority in Scandinavia.
Last year, Researches found that countries with an existing culture of gender equality have an even smaller proportion of women taking degrees in science, technology and mathematics (STEM).
“It is a paradox … nobody would have expected this to be the reality of our time,” says Professor Gijsbert Stoet, one of the report’s authors.
He argues that since Nordic countries have a generally high standard of living and strong welfare states, young women are free to pick careers based on their own interests, which he says are often more likely to include working in care-giving roles or with languages. By contrast, high achievers in less stable economies might choose STEM careers based on the income and security they provide, even if they prefer other areas.
“Girls and boys are different, and have different preferences on the whole,” he argues
A lady then argued that we just pay too little in fields that girls and women lean towards and pay more to fields males lean towards which is fair enough.
Studies that showed women support the gender pay gap? how was it positioned to them? was it using empirical evidence to do with hours worked, types of jobs, risks involved in the work, % share of part time workers? etc. Because the gender pay gap has been debunked multiple times.
We may as well leave it here as it’s going to derail the thread and from your comments I don’t think we’re going to find a common ground anyway.
On the whole women in science thing, today from anything else if we want to push this world forwards we want as many smart people to be given the opportunity to learn add possible
So many historical great scientists were born into riches, not because only rich people were smart but because they are they only ones that had time and funds to waste on trivial pursuit.
So many historical great scientists were born into riches, not because only rich people were smart but because they are they only ones that had time and funds to waste on trivial pursuit.
I'm sorry but I must disagree here. If they're not getting their badges or even applying properly (I heard that Dwight Yorke applied for the Villa job via text message) then of course it matters.
If black ex pros are not positioning themselves to get good managerial roles then they won't get them.
If, they're not applying because they feel it's not worth it then perhaps there is a discussion to be had there.
When Marcus Rashford and Daniel James eventually retire; if both wish to become managers do you think Daniel James will have an advantage? If so, why? Are most chairmen racist? Or do they not think black people are smart enough?
I guess awkward conversations need to be had. Perhaps some people genuinely believe that black people have a genetic component that makes them inferior thinkers - and this will need to be debunked. Anyone truly beliving "black people have their place", would need to be weeded out - but I doubt there are that many.
I will accept that there may be some outdated views, particularly from those of a certain generation, but I'm not convinced that things haven't improved to the extent that more black managers wouldn't be employed if there was a concerted effort.
We have to ask the questions around what they're doing. How many black ex pros can you name that have come out and said they struggle to get work? Barnes, Cole, Campbell, Ferdinand.... Let's be honest it's not pages and pages of names here.
What if there simply aren't that many black ex pros interested in being managers? There might be something in that.
For what it's worth, I do think there ciuld be something amiss here, but we have to ask the questions else we will never understand. We can't just go round screaming "it's racism".
The names you mention are the ones we know of, you’d be pretty naive to believe as a fan who reads a few tabloids & blogs those names we hear of/see are the only ones applying.
Instead of assumption we can just look at the diversity of the product on the pitch & the rather stark lack of it on the benches then ask why is it so? Are people under qualified? Are people not bothering to get qualified because they see a glass ceiling? Or like you say are black ex-pros simply not interested? Which if the case would spawn another question as to why black people would rather leave the game then stay where as so many of their white counterparts fight to stay in it.
@BobbyManc makes a rather valid point. It won’t be a simple answer.
I don't disagree with anything you've said there.
And to be clear I'm not suggesting that nobody is applying. I'm saying we don't know and would need to see the data.
Maybe loads are applying, maybe not. Maybe they feel there is a glass ceiling or perhaps they're not interested.
I'm saying we need to explore before we conclude...
I’m sure you mean well and are trying to be fair but this post feels like it’s desperately trying to ignore an issue that’s literally punching us in the face!
The rest of the post is just plain wrong, it’s really simple there are currently 6 BAME managers in all four football leagues, that’s 91 clubs so 6.6%. 14% of the UK population identifies as BAME. 25% of p,Ayers across all four leagues are also BAME. And actually this is an improvement on past years.
Look up sport peoples think tank they did a survey in 2015 and again in 2017 looking at representation in all coaching roles across the leagues they found that...
Not a good example, I don’t know if the anecdote about Yorke is true or not, but plenty of inexperienced white ex pros do get jobs on a nod and wink. Southgate at Middlesbrough, Lampard at Derby to name a couple, when clubs appoint a manager it’s normally an opaque process and as Southgate himself has said, he is now aware that white privilege was a big part of him getting that first managerial job when he had little or no experience.
Well then there is clearly a discussion to had, Danny Rose and Jermaine Defoe have both said it’s not even worth taking their badges, Sol Campbell refused to give up but has said it felt pointless at times again just a few examples there are more if you look for them.
The rest of the post is just plain wrong, it’s really simple there are currently 6 BAME managers in all four football leagues, that’s 91 clubs so 6.6%. 14% of the UK population identifies as BAME. 25% of p,Ayers across all four leagues are also BAME. And actually this is an improvement on past years.
Look up sport peoples think tank they did a survey in 2015 and again in 2017 looking at representation in all coaching roles across the leagues they found that...
- 22 out of 482 senior coaching positions at professional clubs are held by coaches from BAME backgrounds: 4.6% of all positions of this kind (remember that 14% figure)
- 10 out of 248 senior coaching positions at first team level at professional clubs (4%) are held by BAME coaches
- 9 out of 22 BAME coaches in senior coaching positions at professional clubs (41%) are employed at just four clubs: Brighton and Hove Albion, Crystal Palace, Reading, and Queens Park Rangers
There is something fecking huge amiss here and yes it is racism. Not overt name calling racism, but systemic institutionalised racism based around white social networks within football.
Racism is bad, but I feel this needs to be put in to context.
First I feel the way this protest has happened, has been disrespectful to the covid19 situation, there is people protesting in large numbers ignoring social distancing guidelines, my city one of the cities of these protests now has a confirmed local outbreak.
Also I have witnessed racism, but I have also seen ethnic minority friends thinking they been treated in a racist manner when I think they haven't. e.g. on one occasion I was interviewing candidates for a job, and was a complaint raised against me by a candidate saying I was racist to not give them the job. I also have ethnic minority friends who sometimes act that whenever something happens they not happy then its a result of racism. On one occasion on way back from work, one of them was driving, the police stopped us, and immediately after he was moaning saying it was racism. Yet my dad who is white has been stopped in the same manner when I am sitting in his car.
For this reason I do feel the picture painted isnt quite reality, reality isnt perfect of course, but its not quite as bad as has been said.
Also lets not forget, the cop in question has not yet been convicted, and motivation hasn't been proven to be of racist nature. It has just been assumed it is of racist nature because the cop is white and the victim is black.
First I feel the way this protest has happened, has been disrespectful to the covid19 situation, there is people protesting in large numbers ignoring social distancing guidelines, my city one of the cities of these protests now has a confirmed local outbreak.
Also I have witnessed racism, but I have also seen ethnic minority friends thinking they been treated in a racist manner when I think they haven't. e.g. on one occasion I was interviewing candidates for a job, and was a complaint raised against me by a candidate saying I was racist to not give them the job. I also have ethnic minority friends who sometimes act that whenever something happens they not happy then its a result of racism. On one occasion on way back from work, one of them was driving, the police stopped us, and immediately after he was moaning saying it was racism. Yet my dad who is white has been stopped in the same manner when I am sitting in his car.
For this reason I do feel the picture painted isnt quite reality, reality isnt perfect of course, but its not quite as bad as has been said.
Also lets not forget, the cop in question has not yet been convicted, and motivation hasn't been proven to be of racist nature. It has just been assumed it is of racist nature because the cop is white and the victim is black.
I have never understood the resist police mentality.
The police have a tough job to do, once I was walking home from the cash machine at about 3am, and a patrol car pulled up next to me asking where I was going, there was light agression in the tone of their voices, but I fully complied, didnt act agitated, stood right next to their car. I was eventually told to go on my way, with no issue other than losing a few minutes for the questioning.
I would rather police stop people in these situations, than to ignore them.
Just one thing. Institutional / systemic racism means that the cop doesnt have to be a racist for the outcome to end up racist (disproportionately negative outcomes for people of colour)
Oh god, it's the return of Pointless Anecdotal 'Evidence' again...
There's a story for every situation it seems!
I know this bloke who said that racism doesn't exist, so the evidence is clear - it should be obvious to everyone now that there's no such thing as racism, and all the protesters can go home again.
Whoever's updating the threadmarks is getting lazy. There have been a few scorchers just in the last couple of pages.
This is the biggest red flag you can get. Didn’t bother reading the rest, I already can sense it will be the equivalent of flinging faeces against a wall.
I think we do need to put football management in perspective. In the Premier League, there are 24 jobs, which is tiny compared to the populations.
Managers are regularly picked from the UK, Spain, Italy, France, Germany, and Portugal. Their combined population is about 330 million. About 80% of these countries' populations are deemed to be white.
With 24 jobs for 330 million, you can not expect to have a 25% representation (supposedly 25% players are black from a post above) among such a small number. It just does not work that way. Besides, a lot of managers do not even come from player backgrounds, or, if they do, a lot were not known as players at all.
People go on about white privilege but is really isn't. How many white people miss out on these jobs? Thousands, most likely. Why? A lot of it is to do with connections. Others are to do with being established e.g. how many times were jobs taken by Allardyce and the same old managers?
An example of connections: Harry Redknapp knows the owner of Derby. He admitted that he was a major factor in getting Lampard the job. It is not a white privilege; it is the privilege of being rich and having connections in the industry. Most people do not have these sort of connections, be it white or any other ethnicity.#
Other jobs are held for very long periods of time e.g. Ferguson and Wenger.
Managers are regularly picked from the UK, Spain, Italy, France, Germany, and Portugal. Their combined population is about 330 million. About 80% of these countries' populations are deemed to be white.
With 24 jobs for 330 million, you can not expect to have a 25% representation (supposedly 25% players are black from a post above) among such a small number. It just does not work that way. Besides, a lot of managers do not even come from player backgrounds, or, if they do, a lot were not known as players at all.
People go on about white privilege but is really isn't. How many white people miss out on these jobs? Thousands, most likely. Why? A lot of it is to do with connections. Others are to do with being established e.g. how many times were jobs taken by Allardyce and the same old managers?
An example of connections: Harry Redknapp knows the owner of Derby. He admitted that he was a major factor in getting Lampard the job. It is not a white privilege; it is the privilege of being rich and having connections in the industry. Most people do not have these sort of connections, be it white or any other ethnicity.#
Other jobs are held for very long periods of time e.g. Ferguson and Wenger.
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*sigh*
It's completely obvious why protesters felt that they needed to protest now rather than wait for a safer time. Here's a clue: when do politicians - the very people with the power and authority to actually change things - feel the most pressure to effect change? Answer: when they are faced with negative headlines every day. This is one reason, and not even the most important one, why the protests couldn't be delayed.
It's completely obvious why protesters felt that they needed to protest now rather than wait for a safer time. Here's a clue: when do politicians - the very people with the power and authority to actually change things - feel the most pressure to effect change? Answer: when they are faced with negative headlines every day. This is one reason, and not even the most important one, why the protests couldn't be delayed.
Covid 19 will be cured in our lifetime. Will racism?
You're wrong, Bob - this bloke from the pub told me that you can buy six-foot flags on Amazon, and his mate backed him up.
No. It will hopefully be less and less accepted as time goes on but humans are very flawed and some form of hate or bigotry towards different groups will always be there.
Aaand we are off. Just in time for game day!
Completely disagree with your suggestion that it's down to 'institutional racism'. There are clear pathways into football management, be it from the pitch or from the back room. Black people are actually over represented in football, now more than ever. However, are they doing their coaching badges? Are they working their way up. I find it bizarre when people like Sol Campbell complain that they have to work their way up when everyone else (barring one club prodigies like Pep or Lampard who can instantly command respect) has to. Mourinho started out as a translator, Ole was in the Norwegian league. Comments like Sterling's when he said he wants more black coaches and managers because he doesn't feel that he can connect with white coaches and managers the same are also unhelpful and pretty backward.
More importantly I just patently refuse to believe that a business that is so performance based would ever pass up the right candidate for a role based on their appearance. If you believe that there are systems and individuals purposefully shooting their clubs in the foot for the benefit of white supremacy then you are lost. The best British black manager in the game is Chris Hughton. That should tell you enough. If talented black managers come along, they'll be given every opportunity. At the moment they just aren't there. That's not the fault of 'systemic racism', it's the result of lack of interest and lack of qualifications.
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Football management is anything but performance based. The fact that we see the same few recycled names getting job after job despite failure and underperformance after failure and underperformance, is testament to this.
Is it a case of how Black people's personalities are perceived by others though? Take the aforementioned Campbell and Hughton - does the fact that Campbell is routinely viewed as 'hard work' whereas Hughton is seen as being humble (something of a telling perception in itself) suggest an ingrained fault in the opinions of so many? And also an insight into why one has had a near-top-level managerial career while the other struggles for a similar opportunity? Looked at how Black folks are 'classed' by non-Black people: they are often reduced to stereotypes, and this shabby perspective surely applies to football.
Who exactly are you referring to? David Moyes is an obvious one but he's not employed at the moment. Mourinho? He's won silverware at every club. Football management is probably one of the most performance based jobs going. I can't think of any profession where you can have all the qualification and experience and still be sacked after 6 months because your success rate is 10% lower than expected.
Please list some managers who are consistently rewarded for failure.
Instead of looking for racism, try looking at their managerial winrate.
To further said argument. . .
Who is Pogba always compared to as a player? Yaya or Viera.
Tammy Abraham the new Drogba?
Oh yea, Martial & Rashford could be the next Yorke & Cole right? Oh sorry, Martial’s the new Henry. . . or is that Mbappe? Or is that actually Rashford?
Pigeonholed as much in personality as ability.
Moyes, Pardew, Hodgson, Allardyce, Steve Bruce, Pulis, and that's just off the top of my head. I'm sure there are more kicking around. I'm not even saying this as a race based thing, I've long said that I'm 100% sure there are promising managers in the championship and below that are worth a punt on rather than hiring these same old tired names. These managers fail in club after club and continue to get hired again and again.
It's not always, I believe, a case of racism. I've argued earlier in the thread that pro football as an industry is full of stale, clichéd thinking - admittedly, some of this lazy thinking might apply to perceptions of Campbell, Hughton and others regardless of their backgrounds. Basically I was calling out a society-wide lack of serious thought when it comes to studied consideration of Black people as individuals, and how this absence affects managers, players and associated professionals in their careers.