BLM in the Prem

[Sky1981]

Not really the thread for this, but https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/resources/idt-sh/China_hidden_camps

That's not proof, that's fan fiction.

Google earth capture a hidden facility, we were stopped on highway, mean looking Chinese gestapo roaming around asking us to turn our camera off, but somehow we managed to take a picture of the officer.

(cough, it is the reeducation camp btw, good luck building a big one on the city center)

But we've discovered something of significance - a huge amount of extra activity that has so far gone unnoticed by the outside world.

Wow, a group of men with tourist pass and a camera discovered "HUGE extra activity" james bond style that's gone unnoticed by the outside world

(er... google earth manage to capture it just fine, I think you can actually view that facility in real time)

On the left is the Kunming terrorist attack and on the right is the London terrorist attack on May 22, 2013

There is a strong suspicion that’s getting stronger that the situation in Xinjiang is not nearly as bad as portrayed in the west. The USA has a vested interest in destabilising China and is using false accusations in both Hong Kong and Xinjiang to try to achieve this.

If you look critically at the reports, they are just dodgy witnesses, grainy black and white photos, maps with arrows on and bugger all else.

The witnesses are just not credible and could well be fantasists or actors, or even people looking to move to the USA or UK under the guise of being asylum seekers. They have no photos, no corroborated evidence at all. In police investigations, witnesses are taken to different places and their stories taken down and compared. This hasn’t happened with the stories coming from Xinjiang.

On top of all that, if you look at Google earth, it’s easy to see what’s going on. There is no need to have grainy black and white aerial photos; just give a map reference for people to check themselves.

The real pisser for the USA is that they wanted another war going on in western China, and the re-education of the Urghurs seems to be highly effective. It’s not done just in camps or prisons or schools but at a local level as well. Their aim is to stop radicalisation before it starts. The mass killings by extremists seem to have stopped fully.

 

[Trex]

Two talking point from me

Well I will like to speak about the racism in the English football media towards successful black footballers,we saw it in the past when Raheem Sterling had to call them out,but it's still has a big presence, Black footballers getting hate for being young and successful,just look at the case of Paul Pogba its not his fault he is Britain's most expensive footballer, most of them just couldn't get over the price tag,so they make him out to be some sort of egotistic cnut because they have got the power to influence peoples opinion and basically blind people from the reality,the only thing they got on him is that he dances on Instagram and dyes his hair as if that affects his application in training,never been reported late to training, never been seen drunk driving,never has a manager ever complained about his attitude, all his teammates speak highly of him,been the team best performer ever since his been here he is a saint when compared to someone like Wayne Rooney life,but no one call Rooney a virus, you can see just how Bruno Fernandes has been praised for what?less than 10 good games(I am absolutely glad he is here) almost like its a celebration of Pogba being dethroned as the MVP of British most important football club(its a disgrace sky sports has greame souness as a pundit in their studio)

Secondly I would like to talk about how quickly black footballers as quickly forgotten after their playing career ends in the EPL,when the English media talk about players from previous generations they almost always exempt the black footballers its kind of like they want to forget them as soon as they finish in the cases were they are too good to be forgotten by history they paint them to be some sort of brute who dorminanted because of their beastlike features they talk of Didier Drogba like he was some sort of Elephant leading the line for Chelsea or Patrick Viera or Yaya you're like bulls ignoring the technical and intelligent footballers they were nobody forgets that even though Roy Keane was physically good he was also technical a good footballer but they sort of do with every single black footballer to have graced the epl,everyone speaks of Shearer no one speaks of Andy Cole except United fans, the issue with racism is just so deep people need to educate themselves,all black people want is equality and fairness

 

[The Boy]

That's not proof, that's fan fiction.

Google earth capture a hidden facility, we were stopped on highway, mean looking Chinese gestapo roaming around asking us to turn our camera off, but somehow we managed to take a picture of the officer.

(cough, it is the reeducation camp btw, good luck building a big one on the city center)



Wow, a group of men with tourist pass and a camera discovered "HUGE extra activity" james bond style that's gone unnoticed by the outside world

(er... google earth manage to capture it just fine, I think you can actually view that facility in real time)

Fair enough, not the thread to get into a big discussion.

 

[Sky1981]

Fair enough, not the thread to get into a big discussion.

Yes, I agree.

Sorry. It's OOT

 

[TwoSheds]

Two talking point from me

Well I will like to speak about the racism in the English football media towards successful black footballers,we saw it in the past when Raheem Sterling had to call them out,but it's still has a big presence, Black footballers getting hate for being young and successful,just look at the case of Paul Pogba its not his fault he is Britain's most expensive footballer, most of them just couldn't get over the price tag,so they make him out to be some sort of egotistic cnut because they have got the power to influence peoples opinion and basically blind people from the reality,the only thing they got on him is that he dances on Instagram and dyes his hair as if that affects his application in training,never been reported late to training, never been seen drunk driving,never has a manager ever complained about his attitude, all his teammates speak highly of him,been the team best performer ever since his been here he is a saint when compared to someone like Wayne Rooney life,but no one call Rooney a virus, you can see just how Bruno Fernandes has been praised for what?less than 10 good games(I am absolutely glad he is here) almost like its a celebration of Pogba being dethroned as the MVP of British most important football club(its a disgrace sky sports has greame souness as a pundit in their studio)

Secondly I would like to talk about how quickly black footballers as quickly forgotten after their playing career ends in the EPL,when the English media talk about players from previous generations they almost always exempt the black footballers its kind of like they want to forget them as soon as they finish in the cases were they are too good to be forgotten by history they paint them to be some sort of brute who dorminanted because of their beastlike features they talk of Didier Drogba like he was some sort of Elephant leading the line for Chelsea or Patrick Viera or Yaya you're like bulls ignoring the technical and intelligent footballers they were nobody forgets that even though Roy Keane was physically good he was also technical a good footballer but they sort of do with every single black footballer to have graced the epl,everyone speaks of Shearer no one speaks of Andy Cole except United fans, the issue with racism is just so deep people need to educate themselves,all black people want is equality and fairness

Whilst I generally agree with you I think Shearer was objectively just a better striker and more important figure for his club and country than Cole. He also became a coach briefly and is now a shit, overpaid pundit (which could of course be down partly to race, who knows), I think it's clear why he's more talked about than Cole to me. And yeah I definitely agree about black players being stereotyped for their physicality, but Rio often gets called classy or a Rolls Royce etc. I think it only happens to the players who really are notably physical such as Yaya, Drogba, Pogba etc.

The one that does really piss me off though is the racism towards the likes of Sterling. He's not even in any way a controversial figure, seems to be a model professional. Yes he's probably done some stupid stuff being young, famous and incredibly wealthy, but on the whole he seems very level headed. That example he picked out of the article about McEachran or whoever it was buying his mum a house Vs him doing it really was disgusting journalism.

 

[MsNuno]

White European managers have had “better experience” and have had better jobs at a higher level than black African coaches ever since football began. It’s gradually being globalised so over the next few decades we may well see things diversify.

Would love to see some African coaches emerge over the next few years with some different ideas. I can’t think of a single African coach who’s had a managerial job in the top 5 leagues in Europe.

Nuno is African..

 

[fps]

Yeah but I don't know if football is necessarily representative of society in the UK. I imagine black English players make up more than 3% of English players while Asian British players make up a very small percentage compared to their percentage in the population. Coaching should be reflect the make up of players because it's hard to get into elite coaching if you haven't played the game professionally. (Although some do)

There are people who have been fast tracked into PL jobs but they are real one club types or legends. Otherwise the PL is globalised and their management we can think of as being pulled from the global playing population rather than the percentage population active in Britain. Given the European location the numbers of black people involved in football as an industry become lower again. This is not an attempt to explain away a serious problem, rather an explanation of how a culture arises and that culture will, often obliviously, exclude those who aren’t already fundamental within it, when some of them could do an excellent job. That’s more at the top end of the fame, though.

On the playing side, sport is in many ways the ultimate meritocracy. On the managing side, those skills are not so easily measurable in terms of potential especially and, as anyone who’s seen the same faces roll around a series of uninspired clubs, those people are then quite hard to shift from the carousel even if they produce wretched football but get results. I was struck watching An Impossible Job by the board Graham Taylor spoke to, all white, male and old. Again, culture historically among people involved seeking out those who were like themselves to build something (or only being near people who were like them!), often by othering people who weren’t like them, deliberately and inadvertently, often at the same time. It’s the same way football rivalries develop so that for some reason people from Manchester and Liverpool created football clubs and then, despite claiming it’s all a joke, really seem to genuinely dislike each other sometimes, for moronic reasons, in a moronic way.

I think the most pertinent point above is that black players must be encouraged to do their badges and expect to be given opportunities in coaching and management. Even then the whole culture needs to change because there are going to be dumb racist kids in a lot of football league locker rooms, or indeed simply young people who don’t feel as great an affinity with someone if they’re not similar to them, which is a common human trait that has led down some awfully shameful roads.

 

[Number32]

Of course. Nobody disagrees with that.

But when Jewish people were saying 'antisemitism is bad' in 1940, it was a forgivable statement which didn't need to be countered with 'all racism is bad'.

Sometimes a tighter focus needs to be applied to an issue as a matter of urgency, in order to solve its wider implications for the future. That's all BLM is doing.

It was wrong, some greedy European started anti-arabic in middle east to create Zionist by making the words of 'antisemitism is bad' as their shield.

 

[2 man midfield]

The NFL has the Rooney Rule in which every head coach's position up for grabs has to include an ethnic minority interview for the position. Perhaps it's time for the league to follow suit. Detractors claim that the best qualified coaches should be considered only but it was a start in the right direction Imo.

Yeah I mentioned that briefly in a post further up. On the one hand I understand those criticising it due to tokenism, or saying skin colour should not come into it etc. But at the same time how else is the current setup supposed to change? No-one is saying you have to give the role to a person of colour no questions asked, just let them get their foot in the door and give them a chance to impress. It can't hurt.

 

[The Boy]

I think the most pertinent point above is that black players must be encouraged to do their badges and expect to be given opportunities in coaching and management.

Black players do do their badges but just don't get the opportunities white players do. Sol Campbell, played for England, a recognised leader who captained his country, highly respected as a player, did all his badges and had to start his managing career at Macclesfield at the bottom of league 2, he's now managed to graduate to Southend. Ashley Cole is the same and is currently managing Chelsea under 15s. Check their progress against their England team mates, Slippy Gerrard and Frank Lampard.

The game is rigged against black managers and coaches and they are massively under represented as a result. How many black faces are there on Premiership club boards? How many black people are there in senior positions in the FA or the Prem or UEFA? But between 25 and 30% of premiership players are black. No wonder Danny Rose came out and said he wouldn't bother doing his badges as it would be a complete waste of time because of the colour of his skin. Instead we see Hughes, Bruce, Allardyce even fecking Moyes etc going round and round clubs in a parade of old white acceptable to the owners and the masses faces.

There have been 9 black managers in the history of the premiership but there have been 424 managerial appointments in that time. That's a huge problem

 

[Untd55]

Yeah I mentioned that briefly in a post further up. On the one hand I understand those criticising it due to tokenism, or saying skin colour should not come into it etc. But at the same time how else is the current setup supposed to change? No-one is saying you have to give the role to a person of colour no questions asked, just let them get their foot in the door and give them a chance to impress. It can't hurt.

It can hurt, though. Let us say you had two people, one of colour and one of white. In this example, the white person is better at the job. In this set of circumstances you would not be giving them the job because they are white; it would be the only reason.

Just because other white people have those jobs does not make it any more fair. What does a random white bloke in a managerial position have to do with another white man getting a managerial position?

This is why I think the representation argument is rubbish. I am a white man. How does, say, Solskjaer represent me? He doesn't. What benefit do I get that he is manager of Manutd? None, it means nothing because the only person that can represent me is me.

Let's say I wanted to become manager of Chelsea. Sorry, you are already represented by Solskjaer. White representation quota is maxed, so you are instantly rejected based on race.

The representation is just used for basing selection on race, when it shouldn't be. It should be the best person for the job.

 

[2 man midfield]

It can hurt, though. Let us say you had two people, one of colour and one of white. In this example, the white person is better at the job. In this set of circumstances you would not be giving them the job because they are white; it would be the only reason.

Just because other white people have those jobs does not make it any more fair. What does a random white bloke in a managerial position have to do with another white man getting a managerial position?

This is why I think the representation argument is rubbish. I am a white man. How does, say, Solskjaer represent me? He doesn't. What benefit do I get that he is manager of Manutd? None, it means nothing because the only person that can represent me is me.

Let's say I wanted to become manager of Chelsea. Sorry, you are already represented by Solskjaer. White representation quota is maxed, so you are instantly rejected based on race.

The representation is just used for basing selection on race, when it shouldn't be. It should be the best person for the job.

Give the white person the job if they're the best person for it then. No-one is saying you have to employ a person of colour, just give them a chance to prove that they are the best person for the job.

It should absolutely be the best person for the job, as you say. And it still will be.

 

[The Boy]

It can hurt, though. Let us say you had two people, one of colour and one of white. In this example, the white person is better at the job. In this set of circumstances you would not be giving them the job because they are white; it would be the only reason.

This isn't how the Rooney rule works, you don't have to give the job to some one because they are black, you just have to interview someone from BAME background, you can still appoint whoever you want to the post.

This is why I think the representation argument is rubbish. I am a white man. How does, say, Solskjaer represent me? He doesn't. What benefit do I get that he is manager of Manutd? None, it means nothing because the only person that can represent me is me.

Ole doesn't necessarily represent you, but as white man you won't suffer racism in football, you won't have people making monkey noises at you, you won't feel held back by the colour of your skin. Raheem Sterling put it very well last week when he said.

“There’s something like 500 players in the Premier League and a third of them are black and we have no representation of us in the hierarchy, no representation of us in the coaching staffs. There’s not a lot of faces that we can relate to and have conversations with."

Let's say I wanted to become manager of Chelsea. Sorry, you are already represented by Solskjaer. White representation quota is maxed, so you are instantly rejected based on race.

The representation is just used for basing selection on race, when it shouldn't be. It should be the best person for the job.

There is no quota and as I explained above even with the Rooney rule it is still a meritocracy. Though to be honest there have been lots of examples of people getting managerial jobs without being the best person for the job. So maybe a quota would be a good thing. There's been a glass ceiling for BAME players going into management or coaching for years, maybe a quota would right that wrong.

 

[fps]

Black players do do their badges but just don't get the opportunities white players do. Sol Campbell, played for England, a recognised leader who captained his country, highly respected as a player, did all his badges and had to start his managing career at Macclesfield at the bottom of league 2, he's now managed to graduate to Southend. Ashley Cole is the same and is currently managing Chelsea under 15s. Check their progress against their England team mates, Slippy Gerrard and Frank Lampard.

The game is rigged against black managers and coaches and they are massively under represented as a result. How many black faces are there on Premiership club boards? How many black people are there in senior positions in the FA or the Prem or UEFA? But between 25 and 30% of premiership players are black. No wonder Danny Rose came out and said he wouldn't bother doing his badges as it would be a complete waste of time because of the colour of his skin. Instead we see Hughes, Bruce, Allardyce even fecking Moyes etc going round and round clubs in a parade of old white acceptable to the owners and the masses faces.

There have been 9 black managers in the history of the premiership but there have been 424 managerial appointments in that time. That's a huge problem

Absolutely, I think we are in agreement. The Rose comment is particularly important as it relates to that second part of what I said in your quote, that they must feel there is a pathway there for success, otherwise we have a self-fulfilling prophecy. I think Rose also has experienced what I was discussing before about their being elements of racism in the changing rooms, let alone the coaching and the stands. That is however a feeling, rather than something he's said. There is still a myth that black players are athletes and not thinkers, which has been alluded to by other posters very well in this thread. To me Lampard and Gerrard are interesting not for their Chelsea and Liverpool posts, which given the success of Pep and Zidane are quite in vogue things to do, but the ease with which they found themselves at Derby and Rangers....

 

[afrocentricity]

Fair enough, not the thread to get into a big discussion.

But an enlightening back and forth nonetheless....

 

[SilentWitness]

The English Football League (EFL) has a policy - informally known as the 'Rooney Rule' - that clubs must interview at least one black, Asian and minority ethnic (BAME) candidate for a managerial vacancy.

But that is not necessary if they do not have a shortlisting process and interview only one candidate.

"I'm not saying clubs are not following a process but they aren't nailed on to a process because there is a little bit of a loophole there," said Townsend.

"You aren't going to be held accountable. It's like dipping your toes in without going to swim."

After an 18-month pilot, the EFL introduced the policy "for all first team vacancies" last summer - after clubs voted in favour - becoming the only league in Europe to do so.

I vaguely remember seeing an interview with Harry Redknapp where he said he spoke to the Derby Chairman/Owner and told him to have a chat with Frank and that's how he got the Derby job.

The Rooney Rule doesn't apply in the PL either, it's only in the Championship and below that it does but as this article in the BBC today shows, there is a loophole in it. If you wanted you could interview one person and not have the Rooney Rule come into play at all.

I think if we are all honest, Ole or Frank would be nowhere near the United/Chelsea jobs if you were purely looking at managerial ability. So why is it that there seems to be much more cases of white managers/former players getting jobs like this with little to no qualification for it? That's the question that needs to be asked, looked into and why things like the Rooney Rule should be in place.

 

[Untd55]

I vaguely remember seeing an interview with Harry Redknapp where he said he spoke to the Derby Chairman/Owner and told him to have a chat with Frank and that's how he got the Derby job.

The Rooney Rule doesn't apply in the PL either, it's only in the Championship and below that it does but as this article in the BBC today shows, there is a loophole in it. If you wanted you could interview one person and not have the Rooney Rule come into play at all.

I think if we are all honest, Ole or Frank would be nowhere near the United/Chelsea jobs if you were purely looking at managerial ability. So why is it that there seems to be much more cases of white managers/former players getting jobs like this with little to no qualification for it? That's the question that needs to be asked, looked into and why things like the Rooney Rule should be in place.

Lampard and Solskjaer have a few arguments for them; if you are only targetting ex-players that is.

I cannot think of another ex-Chelsea player who was at a higher stage of management, and actually did well, than Lampard at the time of the appointment. If they were dead set on getting an ex-player in during the period of the transfer ban, he was pretty much the best choice.

Solskjaer was originally meant to be a temporary appointment. Again, in terms of ex-players, there wasn't exactly much of a choice (Roy Keane, Scholes, G Neville, P Nevile [arguable] were all ignored, also). If we went for someone experienced, it would have probably ended up being a Hiddinkesque type of manager. I think the intention of Solskjaer was just to hold off until the summer, which means it did not really matter who we got in.

 

[Schmeichel's Cartwheel]

The irony when some old white referee books the wrong black player because the names have been removed from the back of their shirts.

They take numbers, not names. Otherwise you would probably be right, sadly.

 

[2 man midfield]

I think if we are all honest, Ole or Frank would be nowhere near the United/Chelsea jobs if you were purely looking at managerial ability. So why is it that there seems to be much more cases of white managers/former players getting jobs like this with little to no qualification for it? That's the question that needs to be asked, looked into and why things like the Rooney Rule should be in place.

Ole and Lampard I kind of get. Club legend brings back feel good factor to a rotten dressing room. Seedorf got the Milan job the same way, so I don't think race is hugely important here.

Solskjaer was meant to come in for 6 months but made himself undroppable. Lampard did great with Derby, and appointing young coaches who used to play for you is fashionable after Pep, Zidane etc. Plus, for Chelsea, who is left realistically? They've had everyone! So those appointments I get.

Gerrard is the weird one though. Hadn't he managed Liverpool's under 18s for about a year? Then just walks into a job at Rangers.

 

[11101]

Black players do do their badges but just don't get the opportunities white players do. Sol Campbell, played for England, a recognised leader who captained his country, highly respected as a player, did all his badges and had to start his managing career at Macclesfield at the bottom of league 2, he's now managed to graduate to Southend. Ashley Cole is the same and is currently managing Chelsea under 15s. Check their progress against their England team mates, Slippy Gerrard and Frank Lampard.

The game is rigged against black managers and coaches and they are massively under represented as a result. How many black faces are there on Premiership club boards? How many black people are there in senior positions in the FA or the Prem or UEFA? But between 25 and 30% of premiership players are black. No wonder Danny Rose came out and said he wouldn't bother doing his badges as it would be a complete waste of time because of the colour of his skin. Instead we see Hughes, Bruce, Allardyce even fecking Moyes etc going round and round clubs in a parade of old white acceptable to the owners and the masses faces.

There have been 9 black managers in the history of the premiership but there have been 424 managerial appointments in that time. That's a huge problem

I'm not denying there is a racism problem in English football but you're barking up the wrong tree with Sol Campbell, a well known arsehole.

Chris Hughton is a better example. He's done pretty well in a few jobs now but can't seem to even break into the Pardew/Moyes/Hodgson mid table merry go round.

 

[SilentWitness]

Lampard and Solskjaer have a few arguments for them; if you are only targetting ex-players that is.

I cannot think of another ex-Chelsea player who was at a higher stage of management, and actually did well, than Lampard at the time of the appointment. If they were dead set on getting an ex-player in during the period of the transfer ban, he was pretty much the best choice.

Solskjaer was originally meant to be a temporary appointment. Again, in terms of ex-players, there wasn't exactly much of a choice (Roy Keane, Scholes, G Neville, P Nevile [arguable] were all ignored, also). If we went for someone experienced, it would have probably ended up being a Hiddinkesque type of manager. I think the intention of Solskjaer was just to hold off until the summer, which means it did not really matter who we got in.

Ole and Lampard I kind of get. Club legend brings back feel good factor to a rotten dressing room. Seedorf got the Milan job the same way, so I don't think race is hugely important here.

Solskjaer was meant to come in for 6 months but made himself undroppable. Lampard did great with Derby, and appointing young coaches who used to play for you is fashionable after Pep, Zidane etc. Plus, for Chelsea, who is left realistically? They've had everyone! So those appointments I get.

Gerrard is the weird one though. Hadn't he managed Liverpool's under 18s for about a year? Then just walks into a job at Rangers.

Chelsea - Gullit, Poyet, Hasselbaink, Cole. Lampard has more experience than Cole but I'd argue the opportunity to gain that role was much easier for him than Cole who as someone has said above is having to manage Chelsea U-15s whereas Lampard was able to walk into a job with Derby with no affiliation - same as your argument with Gerrard to Rangers. Hasselkbaink has won a league title with Burton. Poyet won a league title with Brighton.

United - If Scholes is there why isn't Rio? If P and G Neville are there then why isn't Ince? I remember everyone laughing on here at the time when he said he could have done a better job or as good a job as Ole but to be fair to him he won a lower league double with MK Dons.

I'm not saying that any of these players should have got the job but I think it's quite clear that the pathways for white ex-pros to management is far easier to navigate than it is for non-white ex-pros. It's not about just giving a person a job because they are non-white and it should always be down to merits/assessment but the opportunities just aren't there at all and we need to get better at ensure there are.

 

[SilentWitness]

I'm not denying there is a racism problem in English football but you're barking up the wrong tree with Sol Campbell, a well known arsehole.

Chris Hughton is a better example. He's done pretty well in a few jobs now but can't seem to even break into the Pardew/Moyes/Hodgson mid table merry go round.

Pardew is a well known arsehole too.

 

[The Boy]

I'm not denying there is a racism problem in English football but you're barking up the wrong tree with Sol Campbell, a well known arsehole.

Chris Hughton is a better example. He's done pretty well in a few jobs now but can't seem to even break into the Pardew/Moyes/Hodgson mid table merry go round.

Chris Hughton is just one person of colour against 100s of white faces, he is the exception and definitely not the rule.

Campbell may not be the nicest person, but either was Roy Keane or Gary Neville but both walked into top managerial jobs. Not only that, Sol actually managed to keep Macclesfield up despite all the odds against him, a pretty impressive achievement.

I'll say it again .... there have been 9 black managers in the history of the premiership but there have been 424 managerial appointments in that time, that is a massive problem.

 

[villain]

So why is it that there seems to be much more cases of white managers/former players getting jobs like this with little to no qualification for it?

In my opinion - & to make a long theory less long - they don't think black players/people are smart enough to be coaches.
The theory is mostly to do with intelligent players generally being white, and physical players generally being black.

 

[fps]

It can hurt, though. Let us say you had two people, one of colour and one of white. In this example, the white person is better at the job. In this set of circumstances you would not be giving them the job because they are white; it would be the only reason.

Just because other white people have those jobs does not make it any more fair. What does a random white bloke in a managerial position have to do with another white man getting a managerial position?

This is why I think the representation argument is rubbish. I am a white man. How does, say, Solskjaer represent me? He doesn't. What benefit do I get that he is manager of Manutd? None, it means nothing because the only person that can represent me is me.

Let's say I wanted to become manager of Chelsea. Sorry, you are already represented by Solskjaer. White representation quota is maxed, so you are instantly rejected based on race.

The representation is just used for basing selection on race, when it shouldn't be. It should be the best person for the job.

Look at things the other way round in terms of representation, which I'm very much using as a media term. How does a lack of representation affect a person? There was a lot of controversy about Apu on The Simpsons a year or two back. My argument was that the problem wasn't necessarily that character as representation, but that he was the ONLY character offering a representation of someone from that background. Andre Gray movingly recently wrote that in Britain he was either "a rapper, a drug dealer or a footballer" and that was it. Possibly a tangent, but a very important one.

 

[bsCallout]

Chris Hughton is just one person of colour against 100s of white faces, he is the exception and definitely not the rule.

Campbell may not be the nicest person, but either was Roy Keane or Gary Neville but both walked into top managerial jobs. Not only that, Sol actually managed to keep Macclesfield up despite all the odds against him, a pretty impressive achievement.

I'll say it again .... there have been 9 black managers in the history of the premiership but there have been 424 managerial appointments in that time, that is a massive problem.

That is a big problem, but we must put it into context. Black players are a minority in the prem, & especially were in the 90's & 00's which are feeding the current crop of coaches. Of those black players, what percentage do/did their badges?

The question right now should probably be; what percentage of black players currently are doing their badges or how can we get more of the current crop of players to do their badges.

That will be a true reflection of the times and will inform the future. Not using current manager % which is reflective of a VERY low % of black players 10-25 years ago and at an obviously racist time.

 

[fps]

Lampard did great with Derby, and appointing young coaches who used to play for you is fashionable after Pep, Zidane etc. Plus, for Chelsea, who is left realistically? They've had everyone! So those appointments I get.

This is important though - how did Lampard get the Derby job so early in his career? And Gerrard Rangers? These are big big jobs.

 

[UpWithRivers]

I disagree that we should only concentrate on black lives as thats the most urgent need. Of course Black Lives matter but you could broaden this to include immigrants, wars, poverty and on and on. Everyone is fighting with a narrow perspective and not looking at the larger picture. What connects all the injustice? What is the root cause? Money. Its the inequality between the 1 percent and the rest of us. The multi billionaires, trillionaires etc that control everything and keep everyone suppressed and controlled. They dont give a crap about racism. Sure its affecting their bottom line so they will enact some token gestures to shut everyone up. But will it eradicate racism. No. Will there still be deaths, poverty, injustice. Yes. The answer is to reduce the gap between the rich and poor. Education, jobs, health. Stop the rich controlling politics, media. Find better solutions to the never ending cycle of drugs, imprisonment, crime, poverty. It can change. Its actually not that hard. But they will never do it and the people are too busy fighting among themselves and trying to survive which doesn't affect those in their ivory towers one tiny bit.

 

[GenZRed]

Yeah, it's crazy how entitled black people are, right?

If that is seriously your take home point from what Untd55 said then I feel sorry for you. As a previous poster stated, there does seem to be selective outrage over whose death is worth protesting about.

 

[fps]

I disagree that we should only concentrate on black lives as thats the most urgent need. Of course Black Lives matter but you could broaden this to include immigrants, wars, poverty and on and on. Everyone is fighting with a narrow perspective and not looking at the larger picture. What connects all the injustice? What is the root cause? Money. Its the inequality between the 1 percent and the rest of us. The multi billionaires, trillionaires etc that control everything and keep everyone suppressed and controlled. They dont give a crap about racism. Sure its affecting their bottom line so they will enact some token gestures to shut everyone up. But will it eradicate racism. No. Will there still be deaths, poverty, injustice. Yes. The answer is to reduce the gap between the rich and poor. Education, jobs, health. Stop the rich controlling politics, media. Find better solutions to the never ending cycle of drugs, imprisonment, crime, poverty. It can change. Its actually not that hard. But they will never do it and the people are too busy fighting among themselves and trying to survive which doesn't affect those in their ivory towers one tiny bit.

So we should get rid of Cancer Research because they don’t also research other illnesses? The analogy being that BLM needs to stop because there are other things that are also important? Because if you decide that each small thing is insignificant compared with something else, so it’s not worth focusing on, you will never accomplish anything.

If you really care about those issues, you are absolutely free to do something about them. BLM doesn’t stop you.

 

[matsdf]

I disagree that we should only concentrate on black lives as thats the most urgent need. Of course Black Lives matter but you could broaden this to include immigrants, wars, poverty and on and on. Everyone is fighting with a narrow perspective and not looking at the larger picture. What connects all the injustice? What is the root cause? Money. Its the inequality between the 1 percent and the rest of us. The multi billionaires, trillionaires etc that control everything and keep everyone suppressed and controlled. They dont give a crap about racism. Sure its affecting their bottom line so they will enact some token gestures to shut everyone up. But will it eradicate racism. No. Will there still be deaths, poverty, injustice. Yes. The answer is to reduce the gap between the rich and poor. Education, jobs, health. Stop the rich controlling politics, media. Find better solutions to the never ending cycle of drugs, imprisonment, crime, poverty. It can change. Its actually not that hard. But they will never do it and the people are too busy fighting among themselves and trying to survive which doesn't affect those in their ivory towers one tiny bit.

If you think the Black Lives Matter movement is only for black lives (and not other minorities), then you've seriously misunderstood the movement.

 

[Sky1981]

Simpson is racist towards white first and foremost. If homer was black that show would have been banned along time ago.

Apu was racist though. Stereotypical Indian at the very least.

But for the love of god it's a good show and probably teach more about one another than a culturally pc diversity quota crap served lately.

 

[DWelbz19]

Politics should be left out of football.

I am anti-racist and recognise BLM as a racist movement. Their world view is that white people are evil and black people are victims, that is why they named it Black lives matter and not Stop racism. The popular phrase "white silence is violence" exposes the nature of the movement. It is not enough to just not do racist things, you have to vocally agree with what BLM says otherwise you are deemed as violent, which in turn legitimizes violence against innocent white people.

Statistics in the US say that police are just as violent against white people but facts like that are ignored because it does not fit their racist agenda. Within victim status lies power. Black on white crime is also much more common in the US than white on black crime. White racists are aware of these statistics and feel unfairly labeled as the bad guys. BLM only agitates these people, bringing us further apart.

Racism is a real problem, both from white towards black and from black towards white. The best way to convert a racist is to share an interest and become mates with someone of another color. Football is brilliant for this, it unites people. A terrible attempt to convert a racist is pointing fingers and force them to oblige, this is what BLM does. See, all football has to do is include everybody and the football itself does the rest.

I have been a United supporter since the mid-90s but I can not do it anymore if they enter the pich with Black lives matter on their shirts, because I do not tolerate racism against any color, and that includes white people.

 

[Cassidy]

But why aren't those people outraged over these other people's deaths? It seems selective outrage.

Two black police officers killed - no outrage

Four white police officers killed - no outrage.

7500 Black people killed by criminals every year in the us - no outrage

White people killed by police (more get killed than black in the US actually, including unarmed) - no outrage

It seems this outrage only exists in one set of circumstances, when you should feel it in all. I do not support a movement that only seems to think lives matter in selective circumstances.

Who told you there is no outrage?

Its an anti racism campaign so why would they campaign when its not about racism?

Does that mean there is no outrage NO!

We also need to stop this black on black crime deflection. Again there are plenty people working to tackle that but again it isnt a racism issue and so an anti racism campaign isnt going to address it. Secondly its crime based on proximity (i.e there is also white on white and hispanic on hispanic etc). I.E its crime which has many people on the case.

The issue here is institutional racism and that is what the campaign is about.

Not to mention that BLM have campaigned for non black people also.

 

[fps]

Simpson is racist towards white first and foremost. If homer was black that show would have been banned along time ago.

Apu was racist though. Stereotypical Indian at the very least.

But for the love of god it's a good show and probably teach more about one another than a culturally pc diversity quota crap served lately.

I don't even know how to respond to that first line. It's just bizarre.

 

[2 man midfield]

Chelsea - Gullit, Poyet, Hasselbaink, Cole. Lampard has more experience than Cole but I'd argue the opportunity to gain that role was much easier for him than Cole who as someone has said above is having to manage Chelsea U-15s whereas Lampard was able to walk into a job with Derby with no affiliation - same as your argument with Gerrard to Rangers. Hasselkbaink has won a league title with Burton. Poyet won a league title with Brighton.

United - If Scholes is there why isn't Rio? If P and G Neville are there then why isn't Ince? I remember everyone laughing on here at the time when he said he could have done a better job or as good a job as Ole but to be fair to him he won a lower league double with MK Dons.

I'm not saying that any of these players should have got the job but I think it's quite clear that the pathways for white ex-pros to management is far easier to navigate than it is for non-white ex-pros. It's not about just giving a person a job because they are non-white and it should always be down to merits/assessment but the opportunities just aren't there at all and we need to get better at ensure there are.

I get why Lampard was appointed at Chelsea though, the real mystery is why he was given the Derby job. It turns out as another poster says, he had contacts. Same reason the Neville's got in at Valencia. Knowing people opens doors I guess. Does this mean black managers can't take advantage of that? Not necessarily, but I think everyone knows it's far less likely because of the chairmen being old men.

Rio is too busy in the media to be a coach, I think he's said that himself. Ince I've already said a few posts up is a weird one. He failed at Blackburn once and is now doomed to sit next to Alan Shearer on FA cup weekends. That said, I get why he wasn't offered the United job. It was initially a short term appointment, to appease to fans, cleanse the pallet of post-Jose toxicity, and have someone the fans love in order to get everyone smiling again. Paul Ince was kicked out by Fergie for being big headed and then played for Liverpool. We probably didn't ask Ince for the same reason we didn't ask Gabriel Heinze.

This is important though - how did Lampard get the Derby job so early in his career? And Gerrard Rangers? These are big big jobs.

Yeah these are odd cases. Someone took a punt on them based on their playing career, basically. No reason it shouldn't be happening for players like Ashley Cole. He's unlikeable, but no more so than Gerrard. Vieira had the same punt taken on him, but he's managing Nice instead of Arsenal. A job which was given to Arteta presumably because he's sat in on Pep Guardiola's team-talks.

 

[africanspur]

It was wrong, some greedy European started anti-arabic in middle east to create Zionist by making the words of 'antisemitism is bad' as their shield.

What are you actually trying to say here?

 

[fps]

Yeah these are odd cases. Someone took a punt on them based on their playing career, basically. No reason it shouldn't be happening for players like Ashley Cole. He's unlikeable, but no more so than Gerrard. Vieira had the same punt taken on him, but he's managing Nice instead of Arsenal. A job which was given to Arteta presumably because he's sat in on Pep Guardiola's team-talks.

I always wonder, what did Ashley Cole actually DO that made him so disliked? I know he had the audacity actually to mention that he was being offered a contract that wasn't at his market value, but other than that and wearing a suit once for a Lottery ad, I can't find anything.

 

[POF]

I vaguely remember seeing an interview with Harry Redknapp where he said he spoke to the Derby Chairman/Owner and told him to have a chat with Frank and that's how he got the Derby job.

The Rooney Rule doesn't apply in the PL either, it's only in the Championship and below that it does but as this article in the BBC today shows, there is a loophole in it. If you wanted you could interview one person and not have the Rooney Rule come into play at all.

I think if we are all honest, Ole or Frank would be nowhere near the United/Chelsea jobs if you were purely looking at managerial ability. So why is it that there seems to be much more cases of white managers/former players getting jobs like this with little to no qualification for it? That's the question that needs to be asked, looked into and why things like the Rooney Rule should be in place.

I think you're massively reaching to bring race into the Ole/Lampard appointments. Giggs is mixed race and would have been handed the United job if LVG didn't royally screw it up.

 

[UpWithRivers]

So we should get rid of Cancer Research because they don’t also research other illnesses? The analogy being that BLM needs to stop because there are other things that are also important? Because if you decide that each small thing is insignificant compared with something else, so it’s not worth focusing on, you will never accomplish anything.

If you really care about those issues, you are absolutely free to do something about them. BLM doesn’t stop you.

If there were more deaths because of poorly funded hospitals and the lack of medical professionals then yes I would say get rid of cancer research and redirect funds to improving health care for all. Then Id increase tax on cigarettes to the point it self funds cancer fro those that cigarettes are the cause. 0 cost. Then Id think of a million other ways to improve society and in turn help those with cancer but at the same time save more lives and improve living standards for all. But its a poor analogy. Cancer Research and BLM are two completely different things. Im saying if you want to improve Black lives then go to the root cause of the matter.