BLM in the Prem

[SweetRightFoot]

Moyes, Pardew, Hodgson, Allardyce, Steve Bruce, Pulis, and that's just off the top of my head. I'm sure there are more kicking around. I'm not even saying this as a race based thing, I've long said that I'm 100% sure there are promising managers in the championship and below that are worth a punt on rather than hiring these same old tired names. These managers fail in club after club and continue to get hired again and again.

Are you joking? Even Moyes had 1 very successful team at Everton. The rest of them are all tried, tested and trusted picks who have built good sides. I'm fairly sure all of them have got their clubs promoted or have been brought in to avoid the drop and succeeded. Pulis' Hull and Allardyce's Bolton were ferocious team who routinely took big name scalps and were close to/actually in European football. Barring Moyes (who is essentially a broken man after United) Pardew is probably the weakest of the bunch but he's not a walking calamity. His teams play decent football and he's always a charismatic fan favourite when it's going his way.

Saying these men get their jobs through institutional racism is really insulting to them and football as a whole.

 

[Cloud7]

Are you joking? Even Moyes had 1 very successful team at Everton. The rest of them are all tried, tested and trusted picks who have built good sides. I'm fairly sure all of them have got their clubs promoted or have been brought in to avoid the drop and succeeded. Pulis' Hull and Allardyce's Bolton were ferocious team who routinely took big name scalps and were close to/actually in European football. Barring Moyes (who is essentially a broken man after United) Pardew is probably the weakest of the bunch but he's not a walking calamity. His teams play decent football and he's always a charismatic fan favourite when it's going his way.

Saying these men get their jobs through institutional racism is really insulting to them and football as a whole.

Did you see me mention institutional racism anywhere in my post? If you cared to see what I wrote instead of looking for something to be insulted by you would see I literally said in these instances I DON'T see this as an example of racism. All those positive things they did were how many years ago? What have they done successfully in recent times? If they're so tried and tested then why do they keep getting unceremoniously fired? It's symptomatic of the lack of imagination that goes into hiring of these people, but that's a discussion for another thread. I don't want to derail this one which has a very valid point to make.

Added to that if you can ignore such a significant part of my post then I don't see the point in any further discussion with you.

 

[Stacks]

I’m sure you mean well and are trying to be fair but this post feels like it’s desperately trying to ignore an issue that’s literally punching us in the face!


Not a good example, I don’t know if the anecdote about Yorke is true or not, but plenty of inexperienced white ex pros do get jobs on a nod and wink. Southgate at Middlesbrough, Lampard at Derby to name a couple, when clubs appoint a manager it’s normally an opaque process and as Southgate himself has said, he is now aware that white privilege was a big part of him getting that first managerial job when he had little or no experience.


Well then there is clearly a discussion to had, Danny Rose and Jermaine Defoe have both said it’s not even worth taking their badges, Sol Campbell refused to give up but has said it felt pointless at times again just a few examples there are more if you look for them.

The rest of the post is just plain wrong, it’s really simple there are currently 6 BAME managers in all four football leagues, that’s 91 clubs so 6.6%. 14% of the UK population identifies as BAME. 25% of p,Ayers across all four leagues are also BAME. And actually this is an improvement on past years.

Look up sport peoples think tank they did a survey in 2015 and again in 2017 looking at representation in all coaching roles across the leagues they found that...

• 22 out of 482 senior coaching positions at professional clubs are held by coaches from BAME backgrounds: 4.6% of all positions of this kind (remember that 14% figure)
• 10 out of 248 senior coaching positions at first team level at professional clubs (4%) are held by BAME coaches
• 9 out of 22 BAME coaches in senior coaching positions at professional clubs (41%) are employed at just four clubs: Brighton and Hove Albion, Crystal Palace, Reading, and Queens Park Rangers

The findings show that currently just four black managers across 92 professional clubs in England while more than 25% of players are from BAME backgrounds.


There is something fecking huge amiss here and yes it is racism. Not overt name calling racism, but systemic institutionalised racism based around white social networks within football.

The data still requires further investigation. Your stat about 14% of the UK population doesn't take into account that the vast majority are Asian who make up a tiny share share of the BAME community playing football. Black Briitish make up approx 3% of UK population and closer to 5% if you include mix raced. The largest share of BAME footballers appearblack or mixed raced black. A better representation is the 25% BAME players in all four leagues.

 

[AFC NimbleThumb]

Who exactly are you referring to? David Moyes is an obvious one but he's not employed at the moment. Mourinho? He's won silverware at every club. Football management is probably one of the most performance based jobs going. I can't think of any profession where you can have all the qualification and experience and still be sacked after 6 months because your success rate is 10% lower than expected.

Please list some managers who are consistently rewarded for failure.

You’re looking at the wrong end of the spectrum.

Gary Monk says hello. . .

Steve Bruce has hardly pulled up trees since his Birmingham City tenure. . .

He’s currently the nations darling but what about Gareth Southgate’s CV says he should be so prominent in the FA?

I give you Sam Allardyce, should be England Manager who won Sunderland a stay of execution before being talked up into the job.

The carousel of the early EPL era does seem to have stalled somewhat but there’s a profile of manager now, Lampard, Gerrard, our own OgS.

 

[Stacks]

To further said argument. . .

Who is Pogba always compared to as a player? Yaya or Viera.

Tammy Abraham the new Drogba?

Oh yea, Martial & Rashford could be the next Yorke & Cole right? Oh sorry, Martial’s the new Henry. . . or is that Mbappe? Or is that actually Rashford?

Pigeonholed as much in personality as ability.

That's standard in all sports and is partially down to race and appearance. Skip and Shannon joked about this the other day on Undisputed. he said, "ain't nobody claiming a young talented white basketball player is the next Michael Jordan". it's always the next Larry Bird or Dirk Nowitzki!!!

 

[Chesterlestreet]

These managers fail in club after club and continue to get hired again and again.

Define "failure".

As in - I'm serious: define it.

Because it is entirely plausible to consider every one of the managers you listed as being successful, on the whole, for multiple seasons - based on realistic expectations and/or the specific expectations of the people who paid their salaries.

Not being Pep Guardiola doesn't mean you're a failure as a football manager.

Hiring merry-go-round and/or dinosaur style managers rather than opting for a progressive type is something else - that is a matter of ambition, mindset, "vision" for the club's future, or...whatever on the part of the people doing the hiring. But the likes of Big Sam and Woy haven't remained managers at a very high level for donkey's years by constantly - and bizarrely - being rewarded for failing to achieve what they were supposed to.

 

[AFC NimbleThumb]

That's standard in all sports and is partially down to race and appearance. Skip and Shannon joked about this the other day on Undisputed. he said, "ain't nobody claiming a young talented white basketball player is the next Michael Jordan". it's always the next Larry Bird or Dirk Nowitzki!!!

Too true.

Good to know I’ve got a Shannon & Skip confidant on here.

 

[jus2nang]

More importantly I just patently refuse to believe that a business that is so performance based would ever pass up the right candidate for a role based on their appearance. If you believe that there are systems and individuals purposefully shooting their clubs in the foot for the benefit of white supremacy then you are lost. The best British black manager in the game is Chris Hughton. That should tell you enough. If talented black managers come along, they'll be given every opportunity. At the moment they just aren't there. That's not the fault of 'systemic racism', it's the result of lack of interest and lack of qualifications.

And this post probably goes too far the other way. It almost implies (I'm not saying you stated explicitly) that racism doesn't exist other than the overt stuff we see on the terraces.

Low numbers may be due to lack of interest and badges, but it might not be. The point is that without more information we don't know.

There might be talented black managers that aren't getting the opportunity.

The best British black (mixed race, but I won't split hairs) manager being Chris Hughton tells us what exactly? That black people make crap managers? "That's the best they can come up with?".

Bad appointments get made all the time - and yes there are people across numerous industries that would prevent a candidate from getting a job based on skin colour. The question is whether this is particularly prevalent in football.

It might be, it might not be. There are certainly racial biases in football - look at how African no.10s are often converted to defensive midfielders (i.e. not considered smart, just big and strong). It happens in other sports too; pretty sure there's a thing about black quarter backs in the NFL for example...

 

[Dr. Dwayne]

Racism is bad, but I feel this needs to be put in to context.

First I feel the way this protest has happened, has been disrespectful to the covid19 situation, there is people protesting in large numbers ignoring social distancing guidelines, my city one of the cities of these protests now has a confirmed local outbreak.

Also I have witnessed racism, but I have also seen ethnic minority friends thinking they been treated in a racist manner when I think they haven't. e.g. on one occasion I was interviewing candidates for a job, and was a complaint raised against me by a candidate saying I was racist to not give them the job. I also have ethnic minority friends who sometimes act that whenever something happens they not happy then its a result of racism. On one occasion on way back from work, one of them was driving, the police stopped us, and immediately after he was moaning saying it was racism. Yet my dad who is white has been stopped in the same manner when I am sitting in his car.

For this reason I do feel the picture painted isnt quite reality, reality isnt perfect of course, but its not quite as bad as has been said.

Also lets not forget, the cop in question has not yet been convicted, and motivation hasn't been proven to be of racist nature. It has just been assumed it is of racist nature because the cop is white and the victim is black.

The issue of racism must be pretty important to some people if they're willing to put themselves at risk to have their voices heard, don't you think?

Why didn't you give that candidate the job? I think we need this detail before we take your word for it. Also, who did you hire? IN business we often succumb to uncoscious bias and hire people who look like us, talk like us and share similar values because of systemic racism. It doesn't mean we're racist as individuals but it goes some way to showing that the system is.

Maybe you are the problem when riding in people's cars as you seem to be the common denominator in the examples you've provided? Also you get stopped by the police whilst walking down the road. That doesn't happen to me.

With respect to the George Floyd situation, there is plenty of evidence to support the notion that systemic racism exists in the criminal justice system in the US. It's not just about how many blacks or whites are killed by police but how many are charged, incarcerated and even the outcomes of trials that support this idea. All of these protests aren't over George Floyd, it's just that watching a guy die as another man kneels on his neck for almost nine minutes was the last straw for some. It's been a long time coming.

 

[AFC NimbleThumb]

Completely disagree with your suggestion that it's down to 'institutional racism'. There are clear pathways into football management, be it from the pitch or from the back room. Black people are actually over represented in football, now more than ever. However, are they doing their coaching badges? Are they working their way up. I find it bizarre when people like Sol Campbell complain that they have to work their way up when everyone else (barring one club prodigies like Pep or Lampard who can instantly command respect) has to. Mourinho started out as a translator, Ole was in the Norwegian league. Comments like Sterling's when he said he wants more black coaches and managers because he doesn't feel that he can connect with white coaches and managers the same are also unhelpful and pretty backward.

More importantly I just patently refuse to believe that a business that is so performance based would ever pass up the right candidate for a role based on their appearance. If you believe that there are systems and individuals purposefully shooting their clubs in the foot for the benefit of white supremacy then you are lost. The best British black manager in the game is Chris Hughton. That should tell you enough. If talented black managers come along, they'll be given every opportunity. At the moment they just aren't there. That's not the fault of 'systemic racism', it's the result of lack of interest and lack of qualifications.

The whole post was laughable but this took it to another level.

 

[2 man midfield]

And this post probably goes too far the other way. It almost implies (I'm not saying you stated explicitly) that racism doesn't exist other than the overt stuff we see on the terraces.

Low numbers may be due to lack of interest and badges, but it might not be. The point is that without more information we don't know.

There might be talented black managers that aren't getting the opportunity.

The best British black (mixed race, but I won't split hairs) manager being Chris Hughton tells us what exactly? That black people make crap managers? "That's the best they can come up with?".

Bad appointments get made all the time - and yes there are people across numerous industries that would prevent a candidate from getting a job based on skin colour. The question is whether this is particularly prevalent in football.

It might be, it might not be. There are certainly racial biases in football - look at how African no.10s are often converted to defensive midfielders (i.e. not considered smart, just big and strong). It happens in other sports too; pretty sure there's a thing about black quarter backs in the NFL for example...

Do you think this is an element of unconscious racism, or merely that they could be better utilised deeper due to their attributes?

Genuine question by the way. I can only really think of Anderson who it might apply to. Maybe Obi-Mikel? There are examples of it happening the other way round too. Yaya Toure was a CB/DM before being moved further forward at City. Is it not just about utilising players where their attributes lie? People are always saying Pogba should freed of his midfield duties, of which he doesn’t really have many to start with. Yet at the same time, he is good at using his physicality which comes in useful in the engine room. I get why the bigger players might be asked to play a bit deeper. Jay-Jay Okocha would never be asked to play as a destroyer for example.

Not saying I know what I’m talking about, I’m genuinely just asking. I’m willing to listen to anything telling me otherwise.

 

[AFC NimbleThumb]

And yet there’s no racism in the game. Fans are very much part of it & to believe the issue ends at the turnstiles is ludicrous.

 

[jus2nang]

Do you think this is an element of unconscious racism, or merely that they could be better utilised deeper due to their attributes?

Genuine question by the way. I can only really think of Anderson who it might apply to. Maybe Obi-Mikel? There are examples of it happening the other way round too. Yaya Toure was a CB/DM before being moved further forward at City. Is it not just about utilising players where their attributes lie? People are always saying Pogba should freed of his midfield duties, of which he doesn’t really have many to start with. Yet at the same time, he is good at using his physicality which comes in useful in the engine room. I get why the bigger players might be asked to play a bit deeper. Jay-Jay Okocha would never be asked to play as a destroyer for example.

Not saying I know what I’m talking about, I’m genuinely just asking. I’m willing to listen to anything telling me otherwise.

You'll notice when you compare where players play for their clubs vs their countries.

Yaya actually was an attacking midfielder before joining Barcelona. But guess what, he was moved deeper. He has consistently played as an attacking midfielder for CIV.

Mikel is a good example, moved deeper by Mourinho. Stephen Appiah is another one at Juve. Seydou Keita is another.

There are also quite a few academies across Africa where European coaches look to produce players that have certain characteristics (size, strength). You maybe familiar with the term "Papa Bouba Diop template" or "Papa Bouba Diop project"?

Pascal Feindouno was played out wide at club level (another clichéd "black" position).

I guess of course people from certain regions do have genetic differences that manifest themselves as physical advantages or disadvantages.

 

[Fox_Chrys]

You're wrong, Bob - this bloke from the pub told me that you can buy six-foot flags on Amazon, and his mate backed him up.

I hope your comments are not aimed at me, because you are been very childish right now.

I am not a bloke at the pub, I am someone who has spent a lot of time with ethnic minority people, mostly because of where I live but also because of places I have worked. I have a fair few friends who are in this group. Because of this I have witness actual racism (racist abuse, family members who judge on skin colour), but also I have seen where there is accusations of racism, when I believe it isnt.

If a black guy arrests me a white person, does that mean he is been racist, and is it the same vice versa?

The point I made in terms of conviction, it doesnt matter what we or anyone else wants, someone is innocent until proven otherwise, now the evidence against the cop is obviously very strong, clear video footage of him killing someone. There is absolutely no justification for that. So what was my point? my point was we dont know if the skin colour of the victim had any bearing on what he was doing, it was bad either way, it would been as bad if the victim was white. It should not have happened plain and simple, but also until it is proven, we cannot say this is a racially motivated killing.

Do you believe I am a racist because of my post?

It's completely obvious why protesters felt that they needed to protest now rather than wait for a safer time. Here's a clue: when do politicians - the very people with the power and authority to actually change things - feel the most pressure to effect change? Answer: when they are faced with negative headlines every day. This is one reason, and not even the most important one, why the protests couldn't be delayed.

Its not obvious to me actually, I dont protest, so I dont know if at certian times protests can be more effective, if anything I expect ministers welcome these protests as it in all likelihood distracts from their woeful management of the pandemic. I would expect protests to be at maximum effectiveness during election's, outside of that during periods of time when there isnt much other news worthy of reporting.

But regardless if they were properly social distanced during these protests, it would have been ok. But I think an attitude of everything else doesnt matter, is wrong, everything matters. We have a local outbreak in my city now, and is it a coincidence that there has been packed groups of protesters?

I am welcome to debating this with you but you need to be mature and stop resorting to one liner sarcastic comments. Because those wont make you taken seriously.

Also for @Cassidy

Just one thing. Institutional / systemic racism means that the cop doesnt have to be a racist for the outcome to end up racist (disproportionately negative outcomes for people of colour)

I looked up what you stated, and thank you for pointing that out. But it seems confusing to me.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Institutional_racism

Is that article saying that if by accident ethnic minorities come out statistically worse than it means it is systemic racism? If so that seems a bit forced, that would mean e.g. people would have to take forceful action to guarantee ethnic minorities are statistically successful based on the make up of population, even if it means unfair treatment of people to ensure that. That sounds like political correction to me. Or have I misunderstood it?

To me systematic racism would be rather that someone sets up an entity in a way that a particular race (doesnt have to be an ethnic minority to be racism) is disadvantaged based on the policies or mindset of its workforce. An example in the article is about housing slums, now ghetto slums largely populated by ethnic minorities do exist, whether thats down to the authorities making it happen that way (housing them all in one place) or people choosing to live in those communities as they feel more comfortable that way. But of course there is many white people who live in slums as well, for ethnic minorities there is likely a much higher amount statistically living in poor areas, but I feel a lot of this due to how things like immigration have happened, and how people have been brought up, the subject of social mobility.

Statistically if you are born into a poor household whether you are white or black you at a disadvantage. Any solution to that problem should not be targeted at any skin colour but just at the problem itself, on the flip side if you born into a wealthy family, you much more likely to have a higher quality of life, so good job, live in good neighbourhood etc.

 

[Fox_Chrys]

Are you joking? Even Moyes had 1 very successful team at Everton. The rest of them are all tried, tested and trusted picks who have built good sides. I'm fairly sure all of them have got their clubs promoted or have been brought in to avoid the drop and succeeded. Pulis' Hull and Allardyce's Bolton were ferocious team who routinely took big name scalps and were close to/actually in European football. Barring Moyes (who is essentially a broken man after United) Pardew is probably the weakest of the bunch but he's not a walking calamity. His teams play decent football and he's always a charismatic fan favourite when it's going his way.

Saying these men get their jobs through institutional racism is really insulting to them and football as a whole.

Yeah this is part of the problem I tried to point out, people "assume" so many things are down to racism.

What we need is data.

How many black people do the training for management, how many apply for management jobs, and like wise the numbers for white people, it wouldn't surprise me if that for managerial vacancies, the vast majority of applicants are white.

 

[Fox_Chrys]

The issue of racism must be pretty important to some people if they're willing to put themselves at risk to have their voices heard, don't you think?

Why didn't you give that candidate the job? I think we need this detail before we take your word for it. Also, who did you hire? IN business we often succumb to uncoscious bias and hire people who look like us, talk like us and share similar values because of systemic racism. It doesn't mean we're racist as individuals but it goes some way to showing that the system is.

Maybe you are the problem when riding in people's cars as you seem to be the common denominator in the examples you've provided? Also you get stopped by the police whilst walking down the road. That doesn't happen to me.

With respect to the George Floyd situation, there is plenty of evidence to support the notion that systemic racism exists in the criminal justice system in the US. It's not just about how many blacks or whites are killed by police but how many are charged, incarcerated and even the outcomes of trials that support this idea. All of these protests aren't over George Floyd, it's just that watching a guy die as another man kneels on his neck for almost nine minutes was the last straw for some. It's been a long time coming.

I never said it wasnt important, I dont know why you think that.

In terms of the job in question, there was 19 applicants, 15 white 4 black, 4 job positions.

I gave the job to 3 black people and 1 white person, that alone was a problem for the accuser, he was the only black applicant who didnt make it.

The person didn't get the job because there was 4 better candidates, it's simple enough.

I will ignore your comments about me been the problem in the car's as you are been personal with those.

 

[The Boy]

Yeah this is part of the problem I tried to point out, people "assume" so many things are down to racism.

What we need is data.

How many black people do the training for management, how many apply for management jobs, and like wise the numbers for white people, it wouldn't surprise me if that for managerial vacancies, the vast majority of applicants are white.

I find it amazing that so many people are so desperate to deny any kind of institutional racism in football. So far I’ve seen no one would hire Sol Campbell because he’s an “arsehole”, Chris Hughton is the best people of colour can offer as well as maybe black players just dont want to be coaches and now that it is all just an assumption.

The stats are very clear, I’ve posted them a few times now and the fact that so many ex players and players who have experienced it are talking about it surely shows there is a systemic problem In the game. It just makes me think people are arguing because they don’t want it to to be true and have no empathy with anyone who might have a different life experience form them.

 

[Fox_Chrys]

I find it amazing that so many people are so desperate to deny any kind of institutional racism in football. So far I’ve seen no one would hire Sol Campbell because he’s an “arsehole”, Chris Hughton is the best people of colour can offer as well as maybe black players just dont want to be coaches and now that it is all just an assumption.

The stats are very clear, I’ve posted them a few times now and the fact that so many ex players and players who have experienced it are talking about it surely shows there is a systemic problem In the game. It just makes me think people are arguing because they don’t want it to to be true and have no empathy with anyone who might have a different life experience form them.

I haven't seen the stats you posted, do you have a link.

The only stats I found from you was the amount of managerial appointments, not the amount who are trained and applying for jobs.

Also I haven't denied it, I just haven't accepted it either, I consider it undecided.

 

[The Boy]

I haven't seen the stats you posted, do you have a link.

The only stats I found from you was the amount of managerial appointments, not the amount who are trained and applying for jobs.

Also I haven't denied it, I just haven't accepted it either, I consider it undecided.

Some basic easy reading. There is huge racism problem in football both overt racism which has risen in the last few years in tandem with hate crime in the UK in general and institutional racism from grass roots level up to the very top. I can understand why people deny it and question it, no one likes to admit to a serious problem in their own backyard, but sadly that attitude is far too common and just ensures that nothing changes.

https://www.academia.edu/12095087/A...he_Lack_of_Black_Managers_in_English_Football

https://www.inclusiveemployers.co.u...major-problem-football-says-commons-committee

https://www.theguardian.com/footbal...ll-parks-premier-league-special-investigation

 

[jus2nang]

I have a fair few friends who are in this group. Because of this I have witness actual racism (racist abuse, family members who judge on skin colour), but also I have seen where there is accusations of racism, when I believe it isnt.

If a black guy arrests me a white person, does that mean he is been racist, and is it the same vice versa?

Some people play the race card in certain instances but that doesn'tmean that the less obvious racism isn'tthere just because you don't recognise it.

In terms of employment opportunities it has been proven beyond doubt in multiple studies in the USA and UK that employers look at "white names" (e.g. Chris Marshall) favourably over "ethnic names" (e.g. Mohamed Adepoju). With regards to being stopped by the police, I think it's widely accepted that black people are stopped disproportionately. Granted there is a link to crime stats but then you step on dangerous ground if the belief is that the being black predisposes someone to commit crime.

The point I made in terms of conviction, it doesnt matter what we or anyone else wants, someone is innocent until proven otherwise, now the evidence against the cop is obviously very strong, clear video footage of him killing someone. There is absolutely no justification for that. So what was my point? my point was we dont know if the skin colour of the victim had any bearing on what he was doing, it was bad either way, it would been as bad if the victim was white. It should not have happened plain and simple, but also until it is proven, we cannot say this is a racially motivated killing.

This is correct- at this stage, looking at this as an isolated incident there's no indication that race played a part. However it's not an isolated incident and there has been a long long history of racism in the police force in the USA that manifests itself in mistreatment of black people. It's pretty difficult to deny and I'm surprised that you either aren't aware of that or aren't able to understand how that provides context to the killing.

 

[SteveJ]

I am not a bloke at the pub, I am someone who has spent a lot of time with ethnic minority people, mostly because of where I live but also because of places I have worked. I have a fair few friends who are in this group. Because of this I have witness actual racism (racist abuse, family members who judge on skin colour), but also I have seen where there is accusations of racism, when I believe it isnt.

I appreciate that your life-experiences shape your opinions - as they do for us all, to an extent - but my jibe was aimed at the pointlessness & unreliability of turning our own experiences into universal truths. For instance, if I grew up amongst Watford fans who assured me that their team was the best in the world, would that make it true? And why would I take what they said as truth (without the necessary evidence to prove their opinions to be correct)? Similarly, if some of those fans merely pretended to think the same, this wouldn't make a difference to the demonstrable fact that Watford are not the best team in the world in terms of success, achievements, or skill. So, it would be mistaken and nonsensical for me to claim that my experiences (amongst those supporters) mean that I know the actual truth of the matter.

What I'm getting at, in my stupid and rambling way, is that anyone can confirm their pre-existing opinions and beliefs by relying on the unreliable: anecdotal evidence. These anecdotes have very little value when deciding what is truthful and what is not; by definition, they are the views and experiences of the few and, therefore, aren't necessarily representative of most people. A person using this method claims to be objective when their evidence is actually subjective, and is dependent on numerous factors, some of them irrelevant to the truth.

 

[jojojo]

The only stats I found from you was the amount of managerial appointments, not the amount who are trained and applying for jobs.

I think you're fundamentally missing the point about what systemic or institutional racism means in a football management context.

The 50 year old ex-players were brought up in an era of open racial prejudice and outright abuse inside football as well as outside. To ignore that extra pressure to have a successful playing career required not only great skills, but a particularly resilient personality. Now look at the coaches and managers they worked with - scarcely a black face to be seen, not anywhere, not as managers, coaches, not even at youth level or in the FA -and certainly not in the director's seats, owner's box, or amongst the senior administrators and money men. The rarities in senior non-playing roles were exactly that, highly visible rarities mostly concentrated in highly precarious roles at promotion/relegation yoyo clubs.

With next to no role models within the game, and few in senior high profile professional roles inside or outside the game, it would take a special kind of stubbornness to believe it was worth the effort and the emotional investment to take the badges to stay in a game that only grudgingly accepted them in the first place.

The ones who have gone into PL roles, even shortterm, were usually appointed because a club chairman sacked a failing manager late in the season and the usual "golf club contacts" didn't come up with an option fast enough. So a coach gets bumped up as caretaker. If they do well enough they may even get to stay in the job, as long as they're cheap to sack and the budget doesn't run to a bigger name. Eventually luck, budget and patience run out and they're sacked - but they don't join the "management merry-go-round," they just tumble down the divisions or back into coaching, or youth coaching positions

But that's just the headline news, the bigger picture is that even now, there's under-representation in coaching roles generally amongst the 92 professional league cups, and in the upper reaches of non-league, and in the FA, youth FA, and the regional FAs. This isn't just about Sol Campbell, or even Chris Hughton etc - it's about a pattern of conduct and recruitment that has decades old roots, and operates right through the pro football tree.

Encouragement and funding at the lower levels, and an acknowledgement of the problems, and deliberate action to address the problems throughout the tiers, are necessary. Systemic and institutional faults don't change overnight, but that doesn't mean we should ignore them and leave it all down to individual pioneers breaking through the barriers (which is finally happening at the lower/youth levels at some clubs). It's about understanding how the barriers operate, recognising why they stop people showing their talent and forcing recruiters to look at their own practices to see if they genuinely favour actual ability and potential rather than someone who just "looks like they would fit in" or someone a friend of a friend recommended on a golf course.

 

[SteveJ]

Jo is surely correct, I think.

On a similar note, at least in theme: we've all heard or read of newly-appointed managers being unable to command the respect of their charges (Moyes at United seems to be a good example). Usually, this disregard is based on the manager's lack of material achievement in the sport (few achievements in a former playing career; few trophies won as a boss, and so on)...but what must it be like for a newly-appointed Black manager when society has for so long - when it comes to authority - had a structure of whites being at the top, non-whites being at the bottom? I imagine many Black would-be managers feel that they'd be unlikely to succeed in the job when there's not only everyday sporting pressure but also an extraordinary one: their lack of a fighting chance would begin even before they turn up at training to face players who might not respect them, as it'd be a battle just to be appointed in the first place.

 

[POF]

While I guess there's more to the Campbell situation than 'mere' racism, there are reams of books and articles celebrating 'eccentric' white managers; and sometimes that eccentricity isn't harmless at all, let alone comic. It appears to me, whether we're discussing personalities as (apparently) different as Campbell's and Hughton's, white foibles are accepted within the industry but not Black.

Football's a reflection of society, and society's structure: Black people who are deemed 'entertaining' and talented are cast as 'acceptable' - almost white - while 'difficult', self-aware talents (Andrew Cole, for example) are viewed negatively and so aren't accepted. And what an appalling word' accepted' is, in this context...

Andy Cole was a quiet introvert in a laddish culture and as a result, maybe wasn't "accepted". Has that anything to do with him being black?

You may be right. There may be a racial element to it. Maybe I am being extremely naive but I just can't get my head around the generalisations.

It's not something I've ever really understood. People from the same upbringing will have their opinions influenced by similar experiences, but in the modern world with such a multi cultural society that surely is becoming less prevalent. We're all just people and no 2 are the same.

I don't know of any white or non-white french pros or ex-pros that have said that they feel like there is no point in doing coaching badges because of the representation of french people in coaching/management positions but there is a plethora of non-white pros and ex-pros that have stated that.

As many people have pointed out in this thread, there are people that are an exception but those exceptions do not mean that there is suddenly equal or the same opportunity. It also isn't applicable to purely the Premier League and is shown in all of the top leagues but even looking down into the lower leagues of England and others too the disparity between non-white professional players and then how many transfer into coaching/managerial positions.

The Rooney Rule also needs to be changed to have a better impact. As I said before it's not in the PL and in the leagues it is applicable to, the club can choose to interview one candidate and then they don't have to interview anyone else so they can bypass the rule with ease if they wanted to.

There are many examples of white managers that are 'arseholes' that continue to get jobs in top divisions/higher levels to Campbell - Pardew, Roy Keane, Lennon, Warnock etc. Mourinho has made a career out of being a bellend.

You've not really picked great examples there. People will employ arseholes if they are good managers.

Pardew and Lennon earned their spots as caretaker managers and were extremely successful. Warnock is a fantastic manager and has done a great job at numerous clubs. Keane was always spoken of as the "manager on the pitch" at United. He did an excellent job at Sunderland and after one bad job at Ipswich he's on the scrapheap.

Campbell comes across as arrogant and entitled. That's fine if you have something to back it up. Why would anyone take that headache for someone who is unproven?

Most managers who "rise to the top" do so by working their way up in a club. They go in as coach, work their way up by impressing and earn a chance when someone gets sacked. It worked that way for Lennon and Hughton. Chris Powell and Darren Moore both did it successfully too in the past.

Maybe that's the issue and black coaches aren't being given opportunities in the academies. But if they don't do their coaching badges because "there's no point" that will never change. Hopefully some of them do, break through and it will encourage others to follow.

 

[Jericholyte2]

Does anyone have the video Sky Sports play before kick-off?

 

[Dr. Dwayne]

I never said it wasnt important, I dont know why you think that.

In terms of the job in question, there was 19 applicants, 15 white 4 black, 4 job positions.

I gave the job to 3 black people and 1 white person, that alone was a problem for the accuser, he was the only black applicant who didnt make it.

The person didn't get the job because there was 4 better candidates, it's simple enough.

I will ignore your comments about me been the problem in the car's as you are been personal with those.

I didn't suggest you said it was unimportant, was just putting the protests into context vis-a-vis Covid19.

Thanks for the details about the hiring. Clearly no issues there.

I was just asking a question as based on your examples the only common denominator in the vehicle stops seems to be you, and you also note you get stopped sometimes whilst walking along. It's nothing personal. Maybe the police don;t like the way you look

Also, you've not responded to the bit about systemic racism. Presumably you agree?

 

[jojojo]

It's been noted in the CE thread but worth recording in here as well. The City v Burnley match last night saw a flyover by an advertising plane carrying the banner, "white lives matter Burnley."

Burnley, to their credit, immediately disowned the banner and the "fans" who had organised it.

 

[Blatzo]

It might be, it might not be. There are certainly racial biases in football - look at how African no.10s are often converted to defensive midfielders (i.e. not considered smart, just big and strong). It happens in other sports too; pretty sure there's a thing about black quarter backs in the NFL for example...

There are 32 teams in the NFL

Dak Prescott
Pat Mahomes
Jameis Winston
Lamar Jackson
Russell Wilson

Are 5 "non-white" QBs who had a starting role last year that I can name without going through rosters

Marcus Mariotta
Deshaun Watson

I don't see all of those players be branded or defined by one skillset or bein typecast and they're definitely not underrepresented at that position.

 

[AFC NimbleThumb]

There are 32 teams in the NFL

Dak Prescott
Pat Mahomes
Jameis Winston
Lamar Jackson
Russell Wilson

Are 5 "non-white" QBs who had a starting role last year that I can name without going through rosters

Marcus Mariotta
Deshaun Watson

I don't see all of those players be branded or defined by one skillset or bein typecast and they're definitely not underrepresented at that position.

Black quarterbacks really isn’t the hill to die on. I hardly watch NFL & know there’s a stigma around the position.

The current number is an exception not the rule. As with a black No.0, you have to be Clarence Seedorf to thrive.

https://theundefeated.com/features/how-long-will-black-qbs-have-to-endure-racist-double-standards/

Btw, this article highlights 9 Black QBs, so even larger than the number you mention but that doesn’t mean there’s no issue suddenly.

 

[fps]

Define "failure".

As in - I'm serious: define it.

Because it is entirely plausible to consider every one of the managers you listed as being successful, on the whole, for multiple seasons - based on realistic expectations and/or the specific expectations of the people who paid their salaries.

Not being Pep Guardiola doesn't mean you're a failure as a football manager.

Hiring merry-go-round and/or dinosaur style managers rather than opting for a progressive type is something else - that is a matter of ambition, mindset, "vision" for the club's future, or...whatever on the part of the people doing the hiring. But the likes of Big Sam and Woy haven't remained managers at a very high level for donkey's years by constantly - and bizarrely - being rewarded for failing to achieve what they were supposed to.

While I agree with this, one must wonder how they got on to that managerial go-round in the first place, and who may have been a better option back at that early stage when no-one had proved anything.

 

[fps]

I think you're fundamentally missing the point about what systemic or institutional racism means in a football management context.

The 50 year old ex-players were brought up in an era of open racial prejudice and outright abuse inside football as well as outside. To ignore that extra pressure to have a successful playing career required not only great skills, but a particularly resilient personality. Now look at the coaches and managers they worked with - scarcely a black face to be seen, not anywhere, not as managers, coaches, not even at youth level or in the FA -and certainly not in the director's seats, owner's box, or amongst the senior administrators and money men. The rarities in senior non-playing roles were exactly that, highly visible rarities mostly concentrated in highly precarious roles at promotion/relegation yoyo clubs.

With next to no role models within the game, and few in senior high profile professional roles inside or outside the game, it would take a special kind of stubbornness to believe it was worth the effort and the emotional investment to take the badges to stay in a game that only grudgingly accepted them in the first place.

The ones who have gone into PL roles, even shortterm, were usually appointed because a club chairman sacked a failing manager late in the season and the usual "golf club contacts" didn't come up with an option fast enough. So a coach gets bumped up as caretaker. If they do well enough they may even get to stay in the job, as long as they're cheap to sack and the budget doesn't run to a bigger name. Eventually luck, budget and patience run out and they're sacked - but they don't join the "management merry-go-round," they just tumble down the divisions or back into coaching, or youth coaching positions

But that's just the headline news, the bigger picture is that even now, there's under-representation in coaching roles generally amongst the 92 professional league cups, and in the upper reaches of non-league, and in the FA, youth FA, and the regional FAs. This isn't just about Sol Campbell, or even Chris Hughton etc - it's about a pattern of conduct and recruitment that has decades old roots, and operates right through the pro football tree.

Encouragement and funding at the lower levels, and an acknowledgement of the problems, and deliberate action to address the problems throughout the tiers, are necessary. Systemic and institutional faults don't change overnight, but that doesn't mean we should ignore them and leave it all down to individual pioneers breaking through the barriers (which is finally happening at the lower/youth levels at some clubs). It's about understanding how the barriers operate, recognising why they stop people showing their talent and forcing recruiters to look at their own practices to see if they genuinely favour actual ability and potential rather than someone who just "looks like they would fit in" or someone a friend of a friend recommended on a golf course.

Yes, looking at people who have been appointed and going "But they're not bad coaches/managers" is missing the point, it is precisely failing to look at the systemic issues in fact.

 

[Blatzo]

Black quarterbacks really isn’t the hill to die on. I hardly watch NFL & know there’s a stigma around the position

This kind of arrogance is why the left and the right are going to war with one another.

You've started with a conclusion and you're trying to lazily shoehorn everything in to fit that conclusion without taking any time to even consider the idea that there may be some things that go against it.

I don't really see how I can partake in that kind of discussion.

 

[::sonny::]

 

[Posh Red]

I agree with the sentiment but can’t say I’m not a tiny bit worried about where this could lead.

 

[::sonny::]

 

[SadlerMUFC]

Saying "all lives matter" is like going to a breast cancer awareness fund raiser and yelling "all diseases matter". Besides, we wouldn't have to have "black lives matter" if we hadn't had 300 years of black lives don't matter...

 

[AFC NimbleThumb]

This kind of arrogance is why the left and the right are going to war with one another.

You've started with a conclusion and you're trying to lazily shoehorn everything in to fit that conclusion without taking any time to even consider the idea that there may be some things that go against it.

I don't really see how I can partake in that kind of discussion.

I don’t need to shoehorn anything; you’ve listed a few black QBs & dismissed the impact of race on the way they are categorised.

I don't see all of those players be branded or defined by one skillset or bein typecast and they're definitely not underrepresented at that position.

I’ve linked you to a story from someone with far more inside knowledge that states whilst there is progress there are strides to be made. Yet I’m arrogant for agreeing with a balanced view.

I’ve replied to one of your posts with a different view yet I’m trying to lazily shoehorn everything to fit a conclusion, do tell me what my conclusion is?

 

[horsechoker]

I agree with the sentiment but can’t say I’m not a tiny bit worried about where this could lead.

Where could this change lead?

 

[Posh Red]

Where could this change lead?

I probably didn't explain myself well. I just have this fear in the back of my mind that the idiots will retaliate and incidents such as this one could get more nasty. Really hope I am wrong.

Edit: specifically around football I mean.

 

[horsechoker]

I probably didn't explain myself well. I just have this fear in the back of my mind that the idiots will retaliate and incidents such as this one could get more nasty. Really hope I am wrong.

Edit: specifically around football I mean.

Yeah I think it's inevitable we'll see backlash as society tries to change for the better. Hopefully it will be a dying ember rather than massive flames.