BLM in the Prem

POF said:
I think you're massively reaching to bring race into the Ole/Lampard appointments. Giggs is mixed race and would have been handed the United job if LVG didn't royally screw it up.
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As I said above there are examples of non-white managers that have as much or more experience than Ole/Lampard or other names thrown into the hat for those jobs but didn't have the same pathway to it despite displaying traits that people are saying why they got the job aka ex-players and did a good job at this club etc.

I'm not saying that they specifically got the job because they are white but using them as an example of cases where there were alternatives but the same opportunities don't seem to have been afforded which is why something like the Rooney Rule would be good or could be implemented better.
 
SilentWitness said:
As I said above there are examples of non-white managers that have as much or more experience than Ole/Lampard or other names thrown into the hat for those jobs but didn't have the same pathway to it despite displaying traits that people are saying why they got the job aka ex-players and did a good job at this club etc.

I'm not saying that they specifically got the job because they are white but using them as an example of cases where there were alternatives but the same opportunities don't seem to have been afforded which is why something like the Rooney Rule would be good or could be implemented better.
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But I've just given you an example of a mixed race manager who was about to be handed the exact same opportunity.
 
villain said:
In my opinion - & to make a long theory less long - they don't think black players/people are smart enough to be coaches.
The theory is mostly to do with intelligent players generally being white, and physical players generally being black.
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Indeed, follows the same line of thinking as Trex in the way media and fans describe some of the players as 'beast' etc.
 
POF said:
But I've just given you an example of a mixed race manager who was about to be handed the exact same opportunity.
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He didn't get the job after being caretaker after Moyes was sacked nor after LVG left + that and the Seedorf example that was said before are very disproportionate of the overall market. Yes, there are cases which are anomalies, but it's quite clear (@The Boy has shown in the data he's giving) that the overall opportunities are very low.
 
fps said:
I always wonder, what did Ashley Cole actually DO that made him so disliked? I know he had the audacity actually to mention that he was being offered a contract that wasn't at his market value, but other than that and wearing a suit once for a Lottery ad, I can't find anything.
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I think it was the way he said it, he nearly crashed the car in disgust because Arsenal offered him 55k instead of 60k i think is what he said. I can imagine that it would rub people the wrong way. He's probably also looked at a bit of a traitor for leaving for Chelsea maybe ? Probably that he cheated on the 'nations sweetheart' too.
 
Has anyone else noticed any uncomfortable parallels between fans that seem to be anti ‘BLM’, and fans that seem to come across overly critical when discussing some black footballers in the past (not just referring to the forum but more in general)?
 
Sky1981 said:
Simpson is racist towards white first and foremost. If homer was black that show would have been banned along time ago.

Apu was racist though. Stereotypical Indian at the very least.

But for the love of god it's a good show and probably teach more about one another than a culturally pc diversity quota crap served lately.
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To this day I don’t understand the whole Apu uproar.
 
The world is full of hypocrites.

I wonder do the racists cheers and scream loudly when a black player scores. yes they fecking do. Brainelss morons

its such a shame that in this day and age we still have to deal with this and its only going to get worse IMO, too many morons
 
SilentWitness said:
Chelsea - Gullit, Poyet, Hasselbaink, Cole. Lampard has more experience than Cole but I'd argue the opportunity to gain that role was much easier for him than Cole who as someone has said above is having to manage Chelsea U-15s whereas Lampard was able to walk into a job with Derby with no affiliation - same as your argument with Gerrard to Rangers. Hasselkbaink has won a league title with Burton. Poyet won a league title with Brighton.

United - If Scholes is there why isn't Rio? If P and G Neville are there then why isn't Ince? I remember everyone laughing on here at the time when he said he could have done a better job or as good a job as Ole but to be fair to him he won a lower league double with MK Dons.

I'm not saying that any of these players should have got the job but I think it's quite clear that the pathways for white ex-pros to management is far easier to navigate than it is for non-white ex-pros. It's not about just giving a person a job because they are non-white and it should always be down to merits/assessment but the opportunities just aren't there at all and we need to get better at ensure there are.
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Has Rio done any management? I don't remember him doing anything. Scholes didn't do much, but he did manage somewhere, which is why I mentioned him. Manutd probably weren't interested in taking anyone who was not currently managing a club.

Sometimes it is to do with who you know. Harry Redknapp said he pulled some strings to get Lampard the job at Derby; it seems he may actually know the owner of Derby personally. At Chelsea, it seems like he had a good relationship with Abramovich; that obviously didn't do much harm.

It may be that was the deciding factor. There is also the consideration of how well they were doing when the position came available.

Gullit - not managing
Hasselbaink - Sacked
Poyet - He has done well, but is there really that much of a problem with appointing Spanish managers?
 
fps said:
I always wonder, what did Ashley Cole actually DO that made him so disliked? I know he had the audacity actually to mention that he was being offered a contract that wasn't at his market value, but other than that and wearing a suit once for a Lottery ad, I can't find anything.
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Sounds weird but I think cheating on Cheryl probably started it :lol: In the eyes of the wider public anyway.

Personally, I just think he comes across like the sort of cocky person you’d try your hardest to avoid if you knew them in real life. Which might be hugely unfair, I’ve never seen an extended interview with him where he’s been given the chance to put his side across. Maybe it’s because for over 10 years he was playing for our nearest rival? Who knows. I also don’t think he covered himself in glory with the John Terry thing. But like I say, these are personal to me. I can’t speak for others, and it certainly shouldn’t stop him working in football. Look at what Giggs did, and he’s managing his national team!
 
SilentWitness said:
He didn't get the job after being caretaker after Moyes was sacked nor after LVG left + that and the Seedorf example that was said before are very disproportionate of the overall market. Yes, there are cases which are anomalies, but it's quite clear (@The Boy has shown in the data he's giving) that the overall opportunities are very low.
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He didn't end up getting a job he patently didn't deserve and wasn't qualified for. But he was clearly being groomed for it based on Fergie's recommendation. With the disarray the club was in at the end of LVG's tenure they couldn't give it to such a novice.

Not everything has to be because of racism. There are French players at pretty much every Premier League club but no French managers, despite one of the most successful managers in the league's history being French. Why is that? An inherent bias against the French or just pure coincidence?

The opportunity is there if the candidates are good enough. Hughton and Nuno are evidence of that. When Rio and Evra were being linked with the Director of Football role at United, there was lots of discussion about a lack of experience but absolutely no thought whatsoever about the colour of their skin. Michael Emenalo was sporting director at Chelsea for years.

If the will is there to have more black managers then ensuring there is a better pathway for those managers to gain experience is key so there are more viable candidates. Maybe the Rooney rule is the answer? Chris Hughton showed you can get an opportunity by being an exceptional coach.

But, do people genuinely believe that superior candidates for jobs are being ignored due to race? Maybe I am naive but in 2020, that is just beyond comprehension to me. Club boards not wanting to deal with Sol Campbell is no evidence of discrimination.
 
fps said:
I always wonder, what did Ashley Cole actually DO that made him so disliked? I know he had the audacity actually to mention that he was being offered a contract that wasn't at his market value, but other than that and wearing a suit once for a Lottery ad, I can't find anything.
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I never really understood this either. Guy was a top class player for over a decade and to my memory he was never actually involved in anything untoward, like a Suarez. The only thing he did was go from Arsenal to Chelsea which probably ended up being one of the best moves he could have made. I’ve always liked him as a player and thought the massive amount of dislike around him was weird.
 
Cloud7 said:
I never really understood this either. Guy was a top class player for over a decade and to my memory he was never actually involved in anything untoward, like a Suarez. The only thing he did was go from Arsenal to Chelsea which probably ended up being one of the best moves he could have made. I’ve always liked him as a player and thought the massive amount of dislike around him was weird.
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His move to Chelsea, while the correct move, wasn't well conducted from him nor Chelsea. While there was a lot of money involved, which he earned because he was so good and Arsenal were cheap on wages (somethings never change), just the optics didn't sit well with Arsenal supporters and the media lapped it up (e.g. Cashley).

Then his public relationship with his wife Cheryl, and then the tabloid coverage of his alleged affairs and then divorce. In addition, there was a sexual event the tabloids peppered him with and it became an Arsenal song used against Cole...and it was homophobic.
 
fps said:
This is important though - how did Lampard get the Derby job so early in his career? And Gerrard Rangers? These are big big jobs.
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And yet quite a bit of the press coverage about Gerrard taking the Rangers job stressed that it was, somehow, beneath him. I realise that Rangers have problems but I found that sentiment ridiculous...and Anglo-centric.

Not picking on Gerrard, by the way; the press coverage is hardly his fault.
 
POF said:
Club boards not wanting to deal with Sol Campbell is no evidence of discrimination.
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While I guess there's more to the Campbell situation than 'mere' racism, there are reams of books and articles celebrating 'eccentric' white managers; and sometimes that eccentricity isn't harmless at all, let alone comic. It appears to me, whether we're discussing personalities as (apparently) different as Campbell's and Hughton's, white foibles are accepted within the industry but not Black.

Football's a reflection of society, and society's structure: Black people who are deemed 'entertaining' and talented are cast as 'acceptable' - almost white - while 'difficult', self-aware talents (Andrew Cole, for example) are viewed negatively and so aren't accepted. And what an appalling word' accepted' is, in this context...
 
POF said:
He didn't end up getting a job he patently didn't deserve and wasn't qualified for. But he was clearly being groomed for it based on Fergie's recommendation. With the disarray the club was in at the end of LVG's tenure they couldn't give it to such a novice.

Not everything has to be because of racism. There are French players at pretty much every Premier League club but no French managers, despite one of the most successful managers in the league's history being French. Why is that? An inherent bias against the French or just pure coincidence?

The opportunity is there if the candidates are good enough. Hughton and Nuno are evidence of that. When Rio and Evra were being linked with the Director of Football role at United, there was lots of discussion about a lack of experience but absolutely no thought whatsoever about the colour of their skin. Michael Emenalo was sporting director at Chelsea for years.

If the will is there to have more black managers then ensuring there is a better pathway for those managers to gain experience is key so there are more viable candidates. Maybe the Rooney rule is the answer? Chris Hughton showed you can get an opportunity by being an exceptional coach.

But, do people genuinely believe that superior candidates for jobs are being ignored due to race? Maybe I am naive but in 2020, that is just beyond comprehension to me. Club boards not wanting to deal with Sol Campbell is no evidence of discrimination.
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I don't know of any white or non-white french pros or ex-pros that have said that they feel like there is no point in doing coaching badges because of the representation of french people in coaching/management positions but there is a plethora of non-white pros and ex-pros that have stated that.

As many people have pointed out in this thread, there are people that are an exception but those exceptions do not mean that there is suddenly equal or the same opportunity. It also isn't applicable to purely the Premier League and is shown in all of the top leagues but even looking down into the lower leagues of England and others too the disparity between non-white professional players and then how many transfer into coaching/managerial positions.

The Rooney Rule also needs to be changed to have a better impact. As I said before it's not in the PL and in the leagues it is applicable to, the club can choose to interview one candidate and then they don't have to interview anyone else so they can bypass the rule with ease if they wanted to.

There are many examples of white managers that are 'arseholes' that continue to get jobs in top divisions/higher levels to Campbell - Pardew, Roy Keane, Lennon, Warnock etc. Mourinho has made a career out of being a bellend.
 
edcunited1878 said:
His move to Chelsea, while the correct move, wasn't well conducted from him nor Chelsea. While there was a lot of money involved, which he earned because he was so good and Arsenal were cheap on wages (somethings never change), just the optics didn't sit well with Arsenal supporters and the media lapped it up (e.g. Cashley).

Then his public relationship with his wife Cheryl, and then the tabloid coverage of his alleged affairs and then divorce. In addition, there was a sexual event the tabloids peppered him with and it became an Arsenal song used against Cole...and it was homophobic.
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Im not familiar with the sexual event, but the transfer bit and the alleged affairs just seem like a media driven campaign to fit a personal agenda. Just confirms my thoughts, that he’s not actually done anything that bad.

Lest we forget the media crucified Sterling for daring to leave Liverpool for City, and that’s turned out to be a brilliant move for him thus far.
 
Cloud7 said:
Im not familiar with the sexual event, but the transfer bit and the alleged affairs just seem like a media driven campaign to fit a personal agenda. Just confirms my thoughts, that he’s not actually done anything that bad.

Lest we forget the media crucified Sterling for daring to leave Liverpool for City, and that’s turned out to be a brilliant move for him thus far.
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Sterling's been portrayed by the media in such a disgusting light, it's horrific. Cole lived a very public life as a London footballer, dating and marrying a singer, loads of affair accusations, etc. the stuff written about him comes with the territory unfortunately, especially in the UK. And at the time, it was when Facebook and Twitter and social media was really starting to emerge into cell phones, etc.
 
SteveJ said:
Football's a reflection of society, and society's structure: Black people who are deemed 'entertaining' and talented are cast as 'acceptable' - almost white - while 'difficult', self-aware talents (Andrew Cole, for example) are viewed negatively and so aren't accepted.
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In certain contexts the "geniuses are wacky - and quite possibly cnuts" trope is, seemingly, colour blind:

Take - say - Miles Davis. Or Muhammad Ali. Everyone loves 'em. In spite of the fact that they were clearly "difficult" (or even a bit cnutish, depending on who you believe).

But they were a) a jazz musician and b) a boxer. A non-white person might be "accepted" (to use your aptly highlighted term) when he (makes it even easier if "he" is a "he", of course) appears as something...suitable: a black man being either a jazz musician or a boxer is hardly controversial (it's the opposite, in fact, and only confirms the status quo as such). There are numerous other examples from contexts where "wackiness and/or cuntishness" would not disqualify a non-white person from "genius" status (to some degree or other).

Presently, though, a wacky - and potentially cnutish (in one way or another) - black football manager (or bank manager, or prime minister in a non-African country) would be a different kettle altogether.

Or? Would it - really?

Yes, of course it would. And that's the problem. We are nowhere near a point where it would not be a different kettle.
 
forevrared said:
Last year in South Carolina, my alma mater's starting quarterback was arrested for cocaine possession after cops pulled him over for speeding, scraped literal bird shit off the windshield, and ran it through a drug test kit. He missed a game or two before video came out and he was cleared. Goons.
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Yeah, Werts got done dirty that day. Glad his name got cleared.
 
Chesterlestreet said:
In certain contexts the "geniuses are wacky - and quite possibly cnuts" trope is, seemingly, colour blind:

Take - say - Miles Davis. Or Muhammad Ali. Everyone loves 'em. In spite of the fact that they were clearly "difficult" (or even a bit cnutish, depending on who you believe).

But they were a) a jazz musician and b) a boxer. A non-white person might be "accepted" (to use your aptly highlighted term) when he (makes it even easier if "he" is a "he", of course) appears as something...suitable: a black man being either a jazz musician or a boxer is hardly controversial (it's the opposite, in fact, and only confirms the status quo as such). There are numerous other examples from contexts where "wackiness and/or cuntishness" would not disqualify a non-white person from "genius" status (to some degree or other).

Presently, though, a wacky - and potentially cnutish (in one way or another) - black football manager (or bank manager, or prime minister in a non-African country) would be a different kettle altogether.

Or? Would it - really?

Yes, of course it would. And that's the problem. We are nowhere near a point where it would not be a different kettle.
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Granted, it's an entire world of clichéd thinking (something endemic in football). The trouble is, I think, that assumptions about Black people - and Black athletes in particular - are so ingrained that even our praise and admiration is tainted by received 'wisdom', these assumptions. And that's before we even start discussing individual, varying personalities. In a sense, analysis is a form of control. For example, this photo of the boxing champion Sonny Liston was featured in an excellent biography of Ali:

gettyimages-1037276.jpg


According to the esteemed biographer, this 'soulful' photograph tells an entire history - not just Liston's personal story, but a history of his race. Sonny's trials and triumphs don't, apparently, merit the kind of flattering storifying that white heroes traditionally enjoy (the kind which hints that white heroes are basically gods, even if flawed gods). This crude, snapshot treatment and subsequent transformation of Sonny's life makes him an emblem rather than a person. As tempting as it undoubtedly is to more or less concur with the well-intended and apparently guileless author, his depiction is sheer Romance. It categorises Sonny, makes him akin to a fictional character - he is now a narrative we can mould to our liking and approval - rather than a living being of nuance like the rest of us (white people). This literary portrayal, as it over-reaches for empathy, is nonetheless backhanded praise. In the safe and sanctioned hands of an artificer, it turns an individual into an artefact. Worse, it's in the shabby tradition of the 'noble savage' which essentially is a particular kind of white mans' late-in-the-day regret over murder and pillage; the irony of great Black boxers being forced or remunerated victors and victims fighting before white eyes has been artfully dismissed from the discussion. Even our praise shames us, even our acceptance is loaded...
 
kouroux said:
Never denied it, I've been racially abused as a black man in Europe (nasty stuff in France tbh) but I never use as a way to say my pain is above others. It's a fecked up way of looking at things IMHO. Fighting against discrimination and injustice concerns everyone, victims of it and others. The PL is just using this as a PR move, that's all it is to them.
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I completely understand that the premier league "had" to do this as such a large part of UK football is black and you won't want to alienate important people for your brand. As a black person myself I would choose the wear the BLM logo as a player but I also see it more of a PR move by the premier league.
Fact is the league has few asians or arabs so there is no vested interest in supporting their causes. I feel the players should be given a choice, to be perfectly honest.

Olly Gunnar Solskjær said:
They must feel fecking awful.

What the last two weeks or so have taught me, is that if I was black I would be walking around in a constant state of depression.
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I am black and I love it. Deffo not depressed.
 
SteveJ said:
This crude, snapshot treatment and subsequent transformation of Sonny's life makes him an emblem rather than a person.
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Well put, mate.

And - yes - this sort of thing is of course usually (well, always, really - as flaming racists don't tend to compose superficially flattering portrayals of famous black people) carried out with the best of intentions.

Part of the problem has always been recognizing (see your last sentence above) the loaded nature of this kind of "praise".

It's not easy, I should add - to recognize it. It's very hard for someone who considers himself an enlightened, open-minded and utterly non-prejudiced person to face the fact that he's perpetuating (albeit subtly) the very thing he claims to abhor. I speak from experience:

Someone once told me that I just didn't get it. And I dismissed it. I shouldn't have, because that person was right. I didn't get it - and I probably still don't. But at the very least I'm now aware of my limitations. Which is a decent starting point, if nothing else.
 
It's difficult, isn't it? I remember being so impressed by the sports journalist Jimmy Cannon's famous remark about Black boxing champion Joe Louis being 'a credit to his race...the human race'; even such a well-meant and brave - considering the time - remark seems problematical. My very use of the word 'brave' seems laughable and tragic.
 
BigDunc9 said:
I think it was the way he said it, he nearly crashed the car in disgust because Arsenal offered him 55k instead of 60k i think is what he said. I can imagine that it would rub people the wrong way. He's probably also looked at a bit of a traitor for leaving for Chelsea maybe ? Probably that he cheated on the 'nations sweetheart' too.
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He also had a secret meeting with Mourinho in a hotel. Then got his knickers in a twist when the club didn't support him when he got caught breaking the rules in an attempt to leave....
 
Stacks said:
I completely understand that the premier league "had" to do this as such a large part of UK football is black and you won't want to alienate important people for your brand. As a black person myself I would choose the wear the BLM logo as a player but I also see it more of a PR move by the premier league.
Fact is the league has few asians or arabs so there is no vested interest in supporting their causes. I feel the players should be given a choice, to be perfectly honest.



I am black and I love it. Deffo not depressed.
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I would agree with that but imagine a few players not wearing those logos, they would get destroyed by the media and the fans. It's crazy how we need to be open minded about certain things and how at the same time, there is this pressure to show your support
 
kouroux said:
I would agree with that but imagine a few players not wearing those logos, they would get destroyed by the media and the fans. It's crazy how we need to be open minded about certain things and how at the same time, there is this pressure to show your support
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Like the poppy and McClean
 
Cassidy said:
Agree

I wouldn't be surprised in some prem players do not support BLM
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Same for me
Pogue Mahone said:
I’d like to think not. They spend so much of their time as part of a racially diverse team, ready to run through walls for each other. Be weird to hold onto those views in that context.
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I think that's a little too idealistic.
 
Pogue Mahone said:
I’d like to think not. They spend so much of their time as part of a racially diverse team, ready to run through walls for each other. Be weird to hold onto those views in that context.
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I have heard some stories about work place conversations in supposedly diverse teams. It wouldn't surprise me one bit
 
It's a fecking show of solidarity. Imagine people getting incensed as such mundane things as a moment of silence or players wearing pink for breast cancer awareness month. Of course, it's about public relations, but that doesn't really matter. Sometimes the gesture outweighs the intent. Deal with it.
 
MackRobinson said:
It's a fecking show of solidarity. Imagine people getting incensed as such mundane things as a moment of silence or players wearing pink for breast cancer awareness month. Of course, it's about public relations, but that doesn't really matter. Sometimes the gesture outweighs the intent. Deal with it.
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Don't think anyone is incensed with it are they? Chill out! You sound very angry for no reason.

Anyway I thought the one knee gesture was great.
 
It's only taken the FA the best part of a century to improve their ability to correctly mix politics with sport:

'When it was announced in October 1935 that England football’s next home match would be against Germany, there were misgivings; when the venue for the match was confirmed as White Hart Lane, home of Tottenham Hotspur, a club noted for its significant Jewish following, there was consternation. In September that year, Germany’s Nuremberg race laws had prohibited intermarriage and criminalised sexual relations between “Jews” and “persons of German or related blood” effectively turning Jewish Germans into second-class citizens. What was the Football Association thinking? Not much, was the answer.'

https://www.theguardian.com/footbal...many-played-england-tottenham-white-hart-lane
 
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