Bent to Villa for £18m

Sarni said:
They won't go down anyway, I think.
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You can say that about anyone... Wolves gave Chelsea a fight for their money and won, they could, perhaps even should have got something against City this weekend, at times they really gave them a run for their money.. I have said for a long time that I think they are to good to relegate... WBA and Blackpool are teams that on paper should been down there, and they are not. Jarvis, Hunt, Doyle, Fletcher... All the bottom teams have several good players,

I have no clue whom relegates this season. O'Neill got the best out of everyone, while Houllier has done a awful job this season, first thing he did was unsettling Carew while ending up in a public argument (not that Carew too were to blame for that but in all scenarios it should have been different).
We are talking about a team in the very top of the league last season, now they have big problems, Reo-Coker seems to be on his way out.. Stephen Ireland haven't even got to play, he did so well under Mark Hughes that we linked him to ourselves here on redcafe, that thread survived for a long time.

I think Bent might flop at Villa... It is very hard to be a forward if the midfield does not perform behind you, Makoun wont help their offence... I think they might struggle.
 
R_Nick said:
How on earth do United 'win' with that scenario?!
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Well, here's how I see it .... United need a proven experienced keeper pretty soon ... if a deal involving Welbeck lays the foundation for that then that's a win in mine eyes. Saying this of course, I do feel that with the up-coming need to use players that are 'home-grown' Welbeck may well be a long-term asset to the club, but then I haven't seen enough of him really to be able to evaluate that potential thorougly. I suspect the coaching staff at Carrington have seen enough though to make a reasonable decision.

Again, I can only speculate but I suspect that the main reason he has been able to thrive this year for the Black Cats is because there has been less expectation put on him at the SoL and with him being seen as the least dangerous of Bent and Gyan, he's likely had a little less attention placed on him by defenders.

I'd currently rate Welbeck in the 6-10 mill bracket.
 
Georgie Best said:
The younger you are, the more you are worth. If they sign Welbeck, and he continues his current development he can be worth tons of money in a few years, quite possibly far more than £18m. He is a key player at Sunderland and only 20 years old. That is extremely impressive, there are no doubt that this season Welbeck has been a more important player for Sunderland than Bent.

Based on how well he has played this season, I would not let him go for a penny less then £20m in the January transfer window.
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Whether you would or wouldn't let him go for a penny less than £20mil doesn't matter unfortunately. Don't get me wrong I don't want him sold either but I think there's a few on here going a bit over the top with his Sunderland performances. He's had a fairly good 6 months and has been very good in a few games. He's also had a number of very quiet games too.

Obviously his indifferent form has a number of factors mainly being the fact that he's been played out of position from time to time and his age contribuites as well.

So I go back to the main point. A striker that is still only 27 and is a proven scorer in the Premier League will command much more money than a promising talent that has just a good 6months under his belt.
 
MaroonPondlife said:
Well, here's how I see it .... United need a proven experienced keeper pretty soon ... if a deal involving Welbeck lays the foundation for that then that's a win in mine eyes. Saying this of course, I do feel that with the up-coming need to use players that are 'home-grown' Welbeck may well be a long-term asset to the club, but then I haven't seen enough of him really to be able to evaluate that potential thorougly. I suspect the coaching staff at Carrington have seen enough though to make a reasonable decision.

Again, I can only speculate but I suspect that the main reason he has been able to thrive this year for the Black Cats is because there has been less expectation put on him at the SoL and with him being seen as the least dangerous of Bent and Gyan, he's likely had a little less attention placed on him by defenders.

I'd currently rate Welbeck in the 6-10 mill bracket.
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No way we would sell Welbeck for anything remotely close to £6m. He wouldn't cost £20m people suggest either though.
 
MaroonPondlife said:
Well, here's how I see it .... United need a proven experienced keeper pretty soon ... if a deal involving Welbeck lays the foundation for that then that's a win in mine eyes. Saying this of course, I do feel that with the up-coming need to use players that are 'home-grown' Welbeck may well be a long-term asset to the club, but then I haven't seen enough of him really to be able to evaluate that potential thorougly. I suspect the coaching staff at Carrington have seen enough though to make a reasonable decision.

Again, I can only speculate but I suspect that the main reason he has been able to thrive this year for the Black Cats is because there has been less expectation put on him at the SoL and with him being seen as the least dangerous of Bent and Gyan, he's likely had a little less attention placed on him by defenders.

I'd currently rate Welbeck in the 6-10 mill bracket.
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Two words come to mind: 'feck' and 'that'
 
MaroonPondlife said:
Well, here's how I see it .... United need a proven experienced keeper pretty soon ... if a deal involving Welbeck lays the foundation for that then that's a win in mine eyes. Saying this of course, I do feel that with the up-coming need to use players that are 'home-grown' Welbeck may well be a long-term asset to the club, but then I haven't seen enough of him really to be able to evaluate that potential thorougly. I suspect the coaching staff at Carrington have seen enough though to make a reasonable decision.

Again, I can only speculate but I suspect that the main reason he has been able to thrive this year for the Black Cats is because there has been less expectation put on him at the SoL and with him being seen as the least dangerous of Bent and Gyan, he's likely had a little less attention placed on him by defenders.

I'd currently rate Welbeck in the 6-10 mill bracket.
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Perhaps in terms of 'real value' but would you sell him for that? Surely not! We're not Southampton, we don't have to sell our best young prospects.
 
cw1984 said:
Whether you would or wouldn't let him go for a penny less than £20mil doesn't matter unfortunately. Don't get me wrong I don't want him sold either but I think there's a few on here going a bit over the top with his Sunderland performances. He's had a fairly good 6 months and has been very good in a few games. He's also had a number of very quiet games too.

Obviously his indifferent form has a number of factors mainly being the fact that he's been played out of position from time to time and his age contribuites as well.

So I go back to the main point. A striker that is still only 27 and is a proven scorer in the Premier League will command much more money than a promising talent that has just a good 6months under his belt.
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Well signing players are always gambling. And with Bent a lot of the cards is visible, you should know what you get. Then again, it is also pretty clear that Darren Bent is not, and will never become world class, he is no Alan Shearer.

Outperforming to high-class forwards at 20, proves that you can become a great footballer, and there are no doubt that Welbeck has physical attributes that can make him a extraordanary footballer, he debuted for a top team at 18, something that the best player developer in the world; Sir Alex Ferguson almost always avoid doing.

To use a poker metaphor, Bent will never become more than a "strong set". Welbeck is more of suited AK before the flop are dealt, he is not much yet, but he can turn into a flush, straight, stronger set, a quad is possible, perhaps even a royal flush. Welbeck has been far better than Bent this season. That is very impressive... Right now, he is worth a lot... Especially in the January window, demand are just as high perhaps even higher, supply is lower therefor prices are higher in January. I think Sunderland is making a mistake by selling Bent for £18 now, they should wait until the summer... But Welbeck has been better this sesason, so this January he should be at least as much.

There are also two things talking against Bent. He was not that good at Tottenham, where he struggled. And this season he has been outperformed by Welbeck. Those two factors pulls his price down. As Sunderland lets him go, I really think Bruce don't have as much faith as many does. If he goes to Aston Villa, he does a big mistake and I think he might flop, because a forward cannot really do much if the midfield does not perform behind you... And at Villa, they don't, and they have done nothing about that... A forward is not what they need on a short term basis.
 
We paid 10-20 mill for all of Nani, Ronaldo and Anderson. How much did we pay for Smalling and Hernandez? We paid 30 for Berba and Rooney. If Bent's going for 20-ish, Welbeck's at least worth the same. It's a crazy f'n world none the less..
 
e.cantona said:
We paid 10-20 mill for all of Nani, Ronaldo and Anderson. How much did we pay for Smalling and Hernandez? We paid 30 for Berba and Rooney. If Bent's going for 20-ish, Welbeck's at least worth the same. It's a crazy f'n world none the less..
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Hernandez cost £6m and he is at about the same level, maybe slightly better but he was completely unproven when he came.
 
e.cantona said:
We paid 10-20 mill for all of Nani, Ronaldo and Anderson. How much did we pay for Smalling and Hernandez? We paid 30 for Berba and Rooney. If Bent's going for 20-ish, Welbeck's at least worth the same. It's a crazy f'n world none the less..
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Especially for Sunderland he is easily worth those amounts. Because as he works in the loan, he is far less likely to flop if they signed him. They dont think, they know he works with that group. If Ferguson were to accept such a offer, I bet Bruce would have no problems offering those kinds of amounts.

Right now we have 3 great forwards in Chicharito, Berbatov and Rooney, personally I'd like another one, Welbeck would be perfect additon to our squad next season. But at a club like Sunderland we are always going to have the option to buy him back if that is necessary. If we get around £20m, we cant possibly lose more than perhaps £10m if he turns out great because unless they are in a Champions League context it is unlikely that they will get the financial grounds to demand more than £30m for a player, regardless of how much he develops.

I have always rated the skill set of Benzema whom right now looks avalible right now, he probably would not be to expensive neither. Perhaps Ferguson makes a new move for him or something, but I doubt Ferguson will sign someone new nor sell Welbeck anyway. I don't believe we have such a financial crisis that we need to sell to sign players in the summer. Another thing is that its a good timing to sell for Sunderland too, they have Welbeck until the end of season and Gyan. Dropping Bent will not criple them, £18m is a lot of money, their record signing is £13m and to be fair they might not get these kinds of amounts in the summer. Especially if Bruce already has a replacement in mind.
 
Georgie Best said:
Well signing players are always gambling. And with Bent a lot of the cards is visible, you should know what you get. Then again, it is also pretty clear that Darren Bent is not, and will never become world class, he is no Alan Shearer.

Outperforming to high-class forwards at 20, proves that you can become a great footballer, and there are no doubt that Welbeck has physical attributes that can make him a extraordanary footballer, he debuted for a top team at 18, something that the best player developer in the world; Sir Alex Ferguson almost always avoid doing.

To use a poker metaphor, Bent will never become more than a "strong set". Welbeck is more of suited AK before the flop are dealt, he is not much yet, but he can turn into a flush, straight, stronger set, a quad is possible, perhaps even a royal flush. Welbeck has been far better than Bent this season. That is very impressive... Right now, he is worth a lot... Especially in the January window, demand are just as high perhaps even higher, supply is lower therefor prices are higher in January. I think Sunderland is making a mistake by selling Bent for £18 now, they should wait until the summer... But Welbeck has been better this sesason, so this January he should be at least as much.

There are also two things talking against Bent. He was not that good at Tottenham, where he struggled. And this season he has been outperformed by Welbeck. Those two factors pulls his price down. As Sunderland lets him go, I really think Bruce don't have as much faith as many does. If he goes to Aston Villa, he does a big mistake and I think he might flop, because a forward cannot really do much if the midfield does not perform behind you... And at Villa, they don't, and they have done nothing about that... A forward is not what they need on a short term basis.
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I agree with all of that (although the Poker metaphor was a bit mental) but that still wouldn't put Welbeck in the same or higher price bracket.

He's done nothing so far to suggest he'd fetch that kind of cash.
 
Sarni said:
Hernandez cost £6m and he is at about the same level, maybe slightly better but he was completely unproven when he came.
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Difference is we got to Hernandez before he performed on the big stage, even Fergie's said his pricetag would have at least doubled. Would have to say that Welbeck's run would do the same, they'd both be in the 15m range if the market was practical.
 
If Welbeck wasnt our player, we'd be getting linked to him and at a higher fee than Henderson who he has completely outshone this season. So yeah the Bent fee is about right
 
Not a bad striker in all fairness:
Apps: 362 goals: 153

0.42 goals a game.

Villa in the bottom 3 --> not scoring enough. The logic is quite simple in all fairness...Ashley Young + Bent could save them from relegation, combine that with a few other half decent players and you'd bet they could well be safe.

Edit:

Downing and Young can deliver crosses as good as anyone in the league. Bent could have a field day. Villas current crop of strikers are shit in all fairness. Carew: Past it, Agbonlahor: Technically inept, Heskey: more like a defender.
 
Georgie Best said:
Well signing players are always gambling. And with Bent a lot of the cards is visible, you should know what you get. Then again, it is also pretty clear that Darren Bent is not, and will never become world class, he is no Alan Shearer.

Outperforming to high-class forwards at 20, proves that you can become a great footballer, and there are no doubt that Welbeck has physical attributes that can make him a extraordanary footballer, he debuted for a top team at 18, something that the best player developer in the world; Sir Alex Ferguson almost always avoid doing.

To use a poker metaphor, Bent will never become more than a "strong set". Welbeck is more of suited AK before the flop are dealt, he is not much yet, but he can turn into a flush, straight, stronger set, a quad is possible, perhaps even a royal flush. Welbeck has been far better than Bent this season. That is very impressive... Right now, he is worth a lot... Especially in the January window, demand are just as high perhaps even higher, supply is lower therefor prices are higher in January. I think Sunderland is making a mistake by selling Bent for £18 now, they should wait until the summer... But Welbeck has been better this sesason, so this January he should be at least as much.

There are also two things talking against Bent. He was not that good at Tottenham, where he struggled. And this season he has been outperformed by Welbeck. Those two factors pulls his price down. As Sunderland lets him go, I really think Bruce don't have as much faith as many does. If he goes to Aston Villa, he does a big mistake and I think he might flop, because a forward cannot really do much if the midfield does not perform behind you... And at Villa, they don't, and they have done nothing about that... A forward is not what they need on a short term basis.
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Some people on here need to calm down a bit. Welbeck's done well for Sunderlnad, better than most would expect. I know a fair few Sunderland season ticket holders and they've said the same - good player but they don't think United quality unless he improves a lot more. He'll need to have a very good end to the season if Bent leaves.

I Personally think it all depends on how Fergie rates other players - Macheda in particular, because Rooney is still fairly young and Berbatov seems to be getting a new contract so where would he fit in? Maybe 15 games a season?

If Sunderland made a big offer he might go, even if United retain some sort of first option on him.
 
confused why he wants to leave, hes awsome. should be playing for england
 
From every Sunderland fan I know(which admittedly, living 350 miles away, accounts to about five) none of them believe he's a poor player, but they don't think he'll ever become top class.

I can see him going back to United and becoming a squad player for a while, at which point he'll leave and join a good Premier League club. I just don't see the hype with him really. I feel you've got much better prospects at the club - the arrival of Hernandez isn't going to help him either.
 
alastair said:
Welbeck really is a very average player, as is Diouf. I doubt you'll have either of them back in a hurry.
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alastair said:
Well, I'm not an official representative of Arsenal, and I can tell you, I never tauted Stokes as the next big thing.

Welbeck is just so completely devoid of character though. There is genuinely no part of his game that looks that it could ever become fantastic. He's just a nothing player, for whom a club lower than even Sunderland is the right level.
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alastair said:
Sorry, I'll give you his physique, it's pretty good to be fair.

The weaker sides of his game include heading - which is bizarre given his physique - passing and vision. I'm sure someone will say that most of his passes hit his target, but they always seem to be the easiest choice, and normally go backwards.

Fair enough if I'm proven wrong, but I genuinely can't see it at all, whereas I can with Hernandez, for example. Welbeck just strikes me as mid-table.
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I think it's fair to say your opinions on Welbeck are invalid.

Complete nonsense.
 
I'd say what has happened here is that Houllier has gone to Lerner and said "can i have 18 million pounds please to spend on a striker?"

Lerner, being a tight arse said "get Bent!"

and there you have it.. that's what Lerner gets for trying cheat insults on a Frenchman
 
ref: Wellbeck, i believe he has been somewhat overhyped this season but certainly a lot better than the Gooner makes out.

However, theres a world of difference between playing well for Sunderland and playing well for Manchester United. Hernandez is still striker number 3 for me.
 
golden_blunder said:
ref: Wellbeck, i believe he has been somewhat overhyped this season but certainly a lot better than the Gooner makes out.

However, theres a world of difference between playing well for Sunderland and playing well for Manchester United. Hernandez is still striker number 3 for me.
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I've been a tad harsh on him perhaps, given his age. Not every player can develop extremely young, like a Rooney or whoever. I just don't see him playing for you long term.

I know Rooney's been poor recently, but let's assume for the sake of argument that he gets back to 90% of what he was before. Then you have Berbatov as well, who I think is excellent. Then Hernandez who is one of the most promising players in world football, let alone in the PL. Where does Welbeck fit in to your first team? Where does he fit in five years time? It's a genuine question, because I don't see it.
 
alastair said:
I've been a tad harsh on him perhaps, given his age. Not every player can develop extremely young, like a Rooney or whoever. I just don't see him playing for you long term.

I know Rooney's been poor recently, but let's assume for the sake of argument that he gets back to 90% of what he was before. Then you have Berbatov as well, who I think is excellent. Then Hernandez who is one of the most promising players in world football, let alone in the PL. Where does Welbeck fit in to your first team? Where does he fit in five years time? It's a genuine question, because I don't see it.
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The same point I have made lately regarding Macheda and Welbeck - there is no room for both with Rooney, Berbatov and Hernandez at the club. They could compete with Hernandez, perhaps with Berbatov when he's off form but doubtful and neither would take Rooney's place. I think one of them will stay for a few years unless a really great offer comes (£18m for Welbeck counts), one will go rather soon. My money would be on Macheda to go though as I can see him willing to stay in Italy if he gets to play there a lot on loan.
 
Sarni said:
The same point I have made lately regarding Macheda and Welbeck - there is no room for both with Rooney, Berbatov and Hernandez at the club. They could compete with Hernandez, perhaps with Berbatov when he's off form but doubtful and neither would take Rooney's place. I think one of them will stay for a few years unless a really great offer comes (£18m for Welbeck counts), one will go rather soon. My money would be on Macheda to go though as I can see him willing to stay in Italy if he gets to play there a lot on loan.
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If I'm not way off, Welbeck can play both on the left and right wing as well as up top. Same goes for Rooney. Not trying to start a let's try our proven striker as a left back discussion, buuuuut yeah..
 
Sarni said:
The same point I have made lately regarding Macheda and Welbeck - there is no room for both with Rooney, Berbatov and Hernandez at the club. They could compete with Hernandez, perhaps with Berbatov when he's off form but doubtful and neither would take Rooney's place. I think one of them will stay for a few years unless a really great offer comes (£18m for Welbeck counts), one will go rather soon. My money would be on Macheda to go though as I can see him willing to stay in Italy if he gets to play there a lot on loan.
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Yep I agree, especially on the Macheda front. It's obviously more attractive for United to sell Macheda too, principally because you wouldn't meet him in the league like you would if you sold Welbeck to Sunderland. I just feel this is a perfect example of having too many players with potential on your books at the same time.Welbeck might prove me wrong and make it, for all I know. We had a similar case with Fran Merida, who looked like a real talent, but he just never played enough games because of Cesc, Nasri etc, and he inevitably moved on.
 
e.cantona said:
If I'm not way off, Welbeck can play both on the left and right wing as well as up top. Same goes for Rooney. Not trying to start a let's try our proven striker as a left back discussion, buuuuut yeah..
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We're not going to move Rooney permanently to a wing to accommodate either of them and I think Welbeck is better up front. Berbatov and Hernandez could be beaten but Rooney won't.

Macheda's chances are slimmer than Welbeck's because he is foreign and may want to go back to Italy, he has less Premier League experience and is less versatile.
 
Berlinknives said:
You can't say that about West Ham!

Well you can but you'd be crazy :D
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Well, that is true, West Ham are after all probability done, if O'Neill took over and got money to spend for two players in January I'd never say never. Wigan might be done too, as far as I am concerned the entire pressure of keeping is on their midfield, Cleverley and N'Zongbia needs to keep a high level if they are to have a shot. With Birmingham signing Bentley, Miller and Keane, as well as I think McLeish is a good manager and I think they will stay up.

But I have never meat a season, where I felt the relegation battle being as tight as this season. And I do suspect at least one big surprise down there this season... We actually might see three promoted teams stay up, and that is rare. I feel confident that Blackpool and I am sure Newcastle will stay up, based on the season so far it looks like WBA will stay up too.
 
Sarni said:
We're not going to move Rooney permanently to a wing to accommodate either of them and I think Welbeck is better up front. Berbatov and Hernandez could be beaten but Rooney won't.

Macheda's chances are slimmer than Welbeck's because he is foreign and may want to go back to Italy, he has less Premier League experience and is less versatile.
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I agree. Welbeck wont displace Rooney and probably not Berbatov any time soon either. Macheda may very well have had his chance with us, if he dont do a Welbeck at Sampdoria he might not be back at all. Who knows. I'm just saying there are options. And Welbeck, to me, looks too good a talent to just let go..
 
alastair said:
I've been a tad harsh on him perhaps, given his age. Not every player can develop extremely young, like a Rooney or whoever. I just don't see him playing for you long term.

I know Rooney's been poor recently, but let's assume for the sake of argument that he gets back to 90% of what he was before. Then you have Berbatov as well, who I think is excellent. Then Hernandez who is one of the most promising players in world football, let alone in the PL. Where does Welbeck fit in to your first team? Where does he fit in five years time? It's a genuine question, because I don't see it.
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Stating that "Hernandez is one of the most promising players in world football" while completely denouncing Welbeck in the posts I've quoted suggests that you have not watched either player closely enough to form a proper opinion.
 
Look, no way is anybody going to take Welbeck for 20, 18, or even 15m ... in fact I'd be floored if he even went for 10m. He's done well, and he's had a fair shot at it too but I very much doubt he'll go for anything over 8m, and its more likely that he'll go as part of a plus player package.

Luis Suarez is being touted at 15m by the way.
 
alastair said:
I've been a tad harsh on him perhaps, given his age. Not every player can develop extremely young, like a Rooney or whoever. I just don't see him playing for you long term.

I know Rooney's been poor recently, but let's assume for the sake of argument that he gets back to 90% of what he was before. Then you have Berbatov as well, who I think is excellent. Then Hernandez who is one of the most promising players in world football, let alone in the PL. Where does Welbeck fit in to your first team? Where does he fit in five years time? It's a genuine question, because I don't see it.
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I would put money on Welbeck being better than any of them. He could be an absolute world beater, I've been saying it since he was 16 and have only got more convinced.
 
Fiskey said:
I would put money on Welbeck being better than any of them. He could be an absolute world beater, I've been saying it since he was 16 and have only got more convinced.
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You know I can't honestly say I've watched him closely enough to say one way or t'other but I will say I've seen him play enough to know that I've not noticed him if you know what I mean ... it is for this reason that I'd say it's unlikely. One can only wish the lad the best future possible but it's a real cut-throat business at that level ... no passengers allowed, especially at a top club like united.
 
e.cantona said:
I agree. Welbeck wont displace Rooney and probably not Berbatov any time soon either. Macheda may very well have had his chance with us, if he dont do a Welbeck at Sampdoria he might not be back at all. Who knows. I'm just saying there are options. And Welbeck, to me, looks too good a talent to just let go..
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Welbeck is a great talent and he has a good chance of making it even if it is only as a squad player for a while. I wouldn't quite say he is as good as you would gather from what people on here say about him, cause he would be about the same bracket as Ronaldo or Messi, or at least Torres and Pato. For me, he has a chance of becoming a very good Premier League player, if he gets to Jermain Defoe level I will be happy to keep him here.
 
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