Bebe

Oh and another thing, watching him in pre-season reminded me one of my (many) gripes about the way football fans seem to form opinions on players these days. There was some consensus on here that he should never be played wide because he cannot cross. If you'd paid attention to his first games for United, crossing wasn't the only thing he did badly. It just happened to be the most obvious.

He was just playing really badly in general and completely bereft of confidence. The fact he's pinging crosses into row Z means nothing when he's also making a bollox of finding his team-mates with simple passes and looks like he couldn't trap a bag of cement. But no, in this era of FM players have to get broken down into a bunch of attributes and the great on the good on redcafe decided his "crossing ability" was set at "11/100" (or however the feck these things are rated) and he scuffed a few goals in therefore he must only ever be played centrally.

Turns out he's actually quite capable of getting down the wing and putting dangerous balls into the box. He did it for our reserves last season and has been doing it again this summer. He reminds me a bit of Valencia in that he actually tries to pick someone out, rather than just whipping the ball into dangerous areas.

Anyway, I'm rambling now. Rant over.
 
He's had some good pre season moments...usually then followed by nearly falling over the ball, forgetting to take it with him.

He has shown signs of improvement...

Hope his development continues.
 
Pogue Mahone said:
Oh and another thing, watching him in pre-season reminded me one of my (many) gripes about the way football fans seem to form opinions on players these days. There was some consensus on here that he should never be played wide because he cannot cross. If you'd paid attention to his first games for United, crossing wasn't the only thing he did badly. It just happened to be the most obvious.

He was just playing really badly in general and completely bereft of confidence. The fact he's pinging crosses into row Z means nothing when he's also making a bollox of finding his team-mates with simple passes and looks like he couldn't trap a bag of cement. But no, in this era of FM players have to get broken down into a bunch of attributes and the great on the good on redcafe decided his "crossing ability" was set at "11/100" (or however the feck these things are rated) and he scuffed a few goals in therefore he must only ever be played centrally.

Turns out he's actually quite capable of getting down the wing and putting dangerous balls into the box. He did it for our reserves last season and has been doing it again this summer. He reminds me a bit of Valencia in that he actually tries to pick someone out, rather than just whipping the ball into dangerous areas.

Anyway, I'm rambling now. Rant over.
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He certainly seems to have measured his crossing better at times. I don't agree about the picking someone out mind.
 
Pogue Mahone said:
Oh and another thing, watching him in pre-season reminded me one of my (many) gripes about the way football fans seem to form opinions on players these days. There was some consensus on here that he should never be played wide because he cannot cross. If you'd paid attention to his first games for United, crossing wasn't the only thing he did badly. It just happened to be the most obvious.

He was just playing really badly in general and completely bereft of confidence. The fact he's pinging crosses into row Z means nothing when he's also making a bollox of finding his team-mates with simple passes and looks like he couldn't trap a bag of cement. But no, in this era of FM players have to get broken down into a bunch of attributes and the great on the good on redcafe decided his "crossing ability" was set at "11/100" (or however the feck these things are rated) and he scuffed a few goals in therefore he must only ever be played centrally.

Turns out he's actually quite capable of getting down the wing and putting dangerous balls into the box. He did it for our reserves last season and has been doing it again this summer. He reminds me a bit of Valencia in that he actually tries to pick someone out, rather than just whipping the ball into dangerous areas.

Anyway, I'm rambling now. Rant over.
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Yep, if it happens now, it must happen forever. Too many times people focus on the moment or what they are seeing at that time, and throw sense out the window. At the very start of his time with us, his crossing was highlighted in one game by many as a potential highlight, particularly because he was even poorer in other avenues. At no point was the consensus after that game that he should be a winger just because of that. Now we are seeing the opposite, he's got better in his all-round game, passing and holding the ball, but his crossing hasn't caught up, so that must mean he should never be played out wide again! Or, it just means he still has to work on that part of his game....Just like he did with the rest of it.

Yeah that was exactly it, but it's much easier for people to ignore the rational sides of why a player might be playing poorly, especially considering the background of Bebe, when they could just focus on random criticisms that in the grand scheme of things mean jack shit.
 
I think the problem folk have is he looks very uncomfortable with the ball at his feet. Which is quite an important part of the game like...
 
The problem was, people were coming up with that 'problem' after 3-4 games. When those criticisms were made, he could barely run with a ball without picking out an orbiting satellite. Look at him after some time, the difference is huge.
 


Someone even put up a video from his performance against Aberdeen.
I couldnt watch the game but in that video he looked pretty good. Especially in the second half (apart from 2 shots)

His running looks strange though. A bit like Gerrard's
 
Pogue Mahone said:
Accurately predicting future careers for young footballers is a mug's game. You never know whether they might be a late developer and there's lots of examples of kids that look world-beaters at 18 and never amount to much. In Bebe's case it's even more difficult, as his footballing education is so poor compared to the other players at the club.

One thing's for sure. He's showed in this pre-season why we were willing to take a punt and made a mockery of all the idiots who insisted he was barely good enough to start in their Sunday league game. He's raw as anything but has a lot of good attributes. He's out-performed players who probably will have a decent career as PL footballers, albeit in a very small sample of games. I'm not even going to pretend to know where he goes from here. I just hope he has a successful career at some level. It's a great story, if nothing else.
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Do you think he can make it at United if he continues the progress he has shown?

I've wondered about people who say he lacks the basic technique required and subsequently will never reach the level aspired to. He is very raw, but he shows that there is something interesting about him. He has electric pace and a strong, albeit not with finesse, shot on him. His technique isn't all that bad either.

I genuinly hope that he can make it at United - if nothing else but as a squad player with great pace.
 
Hectic said:
The problem was, people were coming up with that 'problem' after 3-4 games. When those criticisms were made, he could barely run with a ball without picking out an orbiting satellite. Look at him after some time, the difference is huge.
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There is a difference...and that difference has come about after 6 months of injury...power to the boy.

But he couldn't get any worse, it was like watching one of those charity matches where Martin Offiah runs around playing football for a bit. It was poor.

He has improved, clearly. To say he hasn't is stupid. He can beat a man, his crossing is far more measured and he seems to have his head up a little more.

Hopefully he'll continue to develop and forge himself a decent career somewhere.
 
londonredmaniac said:
There is a difference...and that difference has come about after 6 months of injury...power to the boy.

But he couldn't get any worse, it was like watching one of those charity matches where Martin Offiah runs around playing football for a bit. It was poor.

He has improved, clearly. To say he hasn't is stupid. He can beat a man, his crossing is far more measured and he seems to have his head up a little more.

Hopefully he'll continue to develop and forge himself a decent career somewhere.
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Aye he has definitely made some strides towards becoming a competent player, you would expect that with a year or so of United education.

I just can't see him ever reaching the standard required of a United player, whether it's on the wing or in a central striking position. He could well make a career for himself mainly due to the fact he has been with United and received a good footballing education.
 
I said he would not make it as a pro based on the handfull of games. Simply because I had never seen a player with such poor touch and control.

He honestly reminded me of me with a ball.

I am 100% certain he will never make it here or at any big side. Not making it as a pro wasnt fair, but he will be a lower league footballer within 2-3 years.
 
Comsmit said:
Aye he has definitely made some strides towards becoming a competent player, you would expect that with a year or so of United education.

I just can't see him ever reaching the standard required of a United player, whether it's on the wing or in a central striking position. He could well make a career for himself mainly due to the fact he has been with United and received a good footballing education.
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I agree. I don't think he looks comfortable with a ball at his feet.

I'd like him to be a success wherever he ends up.
 
So.. If others make it, they are talented. If he has improved, it is only to "United education".. Ok then... Some people just don't want to admit that the guy has talent. He isn't great, or even good, yet, but he clearly has talent.
 
Comsmit said:
I just can't see him ever reaching the standard required of a United player, whether it's on the wing or in a central striking position. He could well make a career for himself mainly due to the fact he has been with United and received a good footballing education.
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Not sure why I always see this with Bebe, hes 5 years behind the other reserves in terms of coaching, hes got raw talent, and a physical build more suited to the premiership than a fair few of our first team squad, he could easily develop enough to be part of United.

The squad has never been full of world beaters, John O Shea was a great servant to the club, he was never 'world class' or whatever label you want to put on players, bebe is a player who will likely, given his background, sit on our bench as cover with run outs in the minor cups on a reasonably low wage for the rest of his career if thats what the club wants.

Those members of the squad always , especially in years we are in at the sharp end for two or three trophies,play an important role in our success.
 
Drogba was a late bloomer, so if he could do it, why not Bebe? They're both fast, tall and strong, if anything Bebe has a headstart on him due to him being with us now.
 
Hectic said:
Yep, if it happens now, it must happen forever. Too many times people focus on the moment or what they are seeing at that time, and throw sense out the window.
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On the same token: because he play half decent in pre season against a load of crap teams - he is going to do it at the elite level of world football?

Fuzzy logic at best.
 
'people focus on the moment or what they are seeing at that time, and throw sense out the window'

We were playing against teams that operate at a level that even Bebe would be aiming higher than. A few 7/10 of ten performances in those games is hardly definitive proof of progress.
 
Jimy_Hills_Chin said:
'people focus on the moment or what they are seeing at that time, and throw sense out the window'

We were playing against teams that operate at a level that even Bebe would be aiming higher than. A few 7/10 of ten performances in those games is hardly definitive proof of progress.
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A level below Scunthorpe and Crawley Town? Or assorted reserve teams? Only that was the level of opposition against which he looked completely hapless in the past.

Besides, this "opposition were crap" argument only holds water if all of his United team-mates raised their game by the same amount. I didn't see fringe players like Brady, Macheda, Petrucci or Michael Keane impress to the same extent as Bebe has on tour.

He's clearly playing better now than he has for United before. I've no idea why this is. It could be down to just confidence. Maybe training with a top flight side is finally bringing benefits? Whatever, he's obviously improved as a footballler, irrespective of the quality of the opposition.
 
Jimy_Hills_Chin said:
'people focus on the moment or what they are seeing at that time, and throw sense out the window'

We were playing against teams that operate at a level that even Bebe would be aiming higher than. A few 7/10 of ten performances in those games is hardly definitive proof of progress.
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Right, but at no point did I combine my point with - "Bebe is showing that he will be a United player, or will make it". I was asking if the people who completely dismissed him after few games, felt any different now that we are seeing a progression. If you feel he hasn't progressed since the pre-season we saw him in, then great, I completely disagree with you. But at no point have I said that he would "do it at the elite level of world football" so I don't know why you included that.
 
Pogue Mahone said:
A level below Scunthorpe and Crawley Town? Or assorted reserve teams? Only that was the level of opposition against which he looked completely hapless in the past.

Besides, this "opposition were crap" argument only holds water if all of his United team-mates raised their game by the same amount. I didn't see fringe players like Brady, Macheda, Petrucci or Michael Keane impress to the same extent as Bebe has on tour.

He's clearly playing better now than he has for United before. I've no idea why this is. It could be down to just confidence. Maybe training with a top flight side is finally bringing benefits? Whatever, he's obviously improved as a footballler, irrespective of the quality of the opposition.
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He wasn't always awful for the reserves. I find it absurd that we are even praising a Manchester United player for be able to perform the basic functions of the game, against D rate opposition, in a reasonable manor.
 
Jimy_Hills_Chin said:
He wasn't always awful for the reserves. I find it absurd that we are even praising a Manchester United player for be able to perform the basic functions of the game, against D rate opposition, in a reasonable manor.
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No he wasn't. He got better as the season went on. Funny that. Almost as though spending a bit of time training at an elite level improved him as a player. Which would also explain the ongoing improvement.

Anyway, since when is he being praised for being able "to perform the basic functions of the game"? He's being praised for standing out as one of our better performers in pre-season. Relative to his own team-mates, not just relative to the opposition.
 
I think he can make a decent career out of himself by being some sort of a battering ram striker, like a Drogba (without the sheer technique and skill as yet of course). Drogba only came into his own at 26-27 iirc
 
Pogue Mahone said:
No he wasn't. He got better as the season went on. Funny that. Almost as though spending a bit of time training at an elite level improved him as a player. Which would also explain the ongoing improvement.

Anyway, since when is he being praised for being able "to perform the basic functions of the game"? He's being praised for standing out as one of our better performers in pre-season. Relative to his own team-mates, not just relative to the opposition.
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I guess it all depends on what you are looking for from Bebe. I am only interested in his worth relative to Manchester United. Sure he will have a decent career and improve; like most his age players; in the next few years. However, I don't feel that he will ever be good enough for Manchester United and as such don't want to see him getting more game time for us. I have a feeling that he will be sold in this window anyway.
 
Jimy_Hills_Chin said:
I guess it all depends on what you are looking for from Bebe. I am only interested in his worth relative to Manchester United. Sure he will have a decent career and improve; like most his age players; in the next few years. However, I don't feel that he will ever be good enough for Manchester United and as such don't want to see him getting more game time for us. I have a feeling that he will be sold in this window anyway.
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I'm very doubtful he'll have a long-term career at United myself. He's such an unusual case though. If he is to have any hope of making it, you'd expect to see a very rapid improvement as he catches up with all the coaching he missed out on at a younger age. Which, to be fair, does seem to be happening.

I'd be inclined to give him 6 months for our reserves and then make a decision on what to to next. After investing as much time and money as we have it would be silly not to give him another crack of the whip. If he's absolutely tearing up the reserve league then maybe, just maybe...
 
I'm very impressed. He still looks clumsy at times but, other than that, he's way ahead of most of the young players we have had high hopes for. His control is good, he uses his size and strength well holding up the ball (and lays it off accurately), his one touch passing is good, he can cross the ball well from either wing, and he seems to have pretty good decision-making and vision. If we'd just bought him as a project, I'd be happy with what I've seen. Granted he's doing it against weak opposition, but he's also doing it better than most of the senior players around him.
 
I'm actually looking forward to seeing him play in the Carling Cup. He actually had a decent pre-season.
 
Not in the squad today.

Injured?
Or is he on his way out? Baffling after the pre season he had.
 
Kid Cunto said:
He's not a Manchester United player, simple as.
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I agree he shouldn't have been signed in the first place.

But if he has no future here why didn't he get sold right after he broke curfew at Besiktas?

Wierd.
 
RedDevilCanuck said:
Not in the squad today.

Injured?
Or is he on his way out? Baffling after the pre season he had.
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To me it looks like he's on his way out. He didn't have a photo taken when they were doing the player pictures. I'm just surprised he's not been sold/loaned out already.

After having a good preseason I thought he'd be given another chance but it doesn't look like that is going to happen.
 
I wouldn't read too much into it. He's probably picked up a knock or shit at football or something.
 
Played with the reserves last night, but he's not in the Champions League squad so who knows what the plan is for his future.
 
Was by all accounts horrendous last night with the reserves. Would like to hear from someone who actually watched the game as I'm just basing this on some people on twitter.

But in any case the reality is that he can't get on the CL bench in his third season here. He's simply not good enough.
 
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