BBC: United hold talks with Mourinho

[Enigma_87]

answer my question. How many titles and trophies have we won with so called squad ability players in the last 15 years.

Not saying anything against those squad players, some were equally important to the team as even Ronaldo, Rooney, Tevez etc in those runs. I'm not saying to shut the academy completely. My point is try to have a better scouts and scouting network and if we can get better players from elsewhere can't see any reason why we should only stick to the academy.

As for titles and cups it's more to do with Fergie in charge rather than individual personnel, he was the main figure behind it. But he also bought squad players from elsewhere who were equally important - Ji Sung Park for example.

 

[Cooksen]

Smugger than LvG's? That is some achievement.

In fairness they are dutch and they always look smug.

 

[Stack]

Not saying anything against those squad players, some were equally important to the team as even Ronaldo, Rooney, Tevez etc in those runs. I'm not saying to shut the academy completely. My point is try to have a better scouts and scouting network and if we can get better players from elsewhere can't see any reason why we should only stick to the academy.

As for titles and cups it's more to do with Fergie in charge rather than individual personnel, he was the main figure behind it. But he also bought squad players from elsewhere who were equally important - Ji Sung Park for example.

Quite telling that you avoid answering the actual question.
Also you should think to look at the context of someones reply to another persons comment before jumping in.
One more time. How many titles and trophies have we won in the last 15 years with these so called squad ability players?.

 

[Earthquake]

He could've also brought in Ibrahimovic instead of Falcao, given their relationship.

Doubtful, considering he brought Falcao to Chelsea *after* seeing him be an utter clusterfeck for us.

 

[Mr Smith]

He was after Griezmann and Stones last summer, but he only got Pedro and Djilobojdi.

I' m guessing he will try them both again this summer, considering we need players on their positions.

You could tell there was something seriously wrong with Chelsea's entire transfer approach last summer, I wouldn't worry too much about him not getting the players he wants. In fact, I wouldn't worry too much about the players themselves; if we get classic Mourinho rather than this season's Mourinho, he's one of the best at getting 200% out of some fairly average players.

 

[Enigma_87]

Quite telling that you avoid answering the actual question.
Also you should think to look at the context of someones reply to another persons comment before jumping in.
One more time. How many titles and trophies have we won in the last 15 years with these so called squad ability players?.

I think I responded to the actual question - the main reason behind it was Fergie being at charge and being able to get the most of it. Do you think LvG or Moyes would have won all those titles with that set of squad players?

Or Sven Goran Eriksson or O'Leary whose names were into the mix while Fergie was contemplating his retirement a decade ago?

And then the other additional ones - why did we finished 7th with that batch of squad players under Moyes from being champions the previous year?

Why are we now 5th while fielding a lot of squad players from the academy?

 

[Sarni]

How many titles and trophies have we won in those last 15 years with these squad players?

A lot, because we had great players beyond them - Evra, Vidic, Ferdinand, Carrick, Rooney, Ronaldo, van der Sar were all instrumental players for our success in 2000s. They were all bought. Our academy players were a good supporting cast but they were not absolutely crucial. Not all parts of title winning teams are top class or need to be even.

 

[Stack]

I think I responded to the actual question - the main reason behind it was Fergie being at charge and being able to get the most of it. Do you think LvG or Moyes would have won all those titles with that set of squad players?

Or Sven Goran Eriksson or O'Leary whose names were into the mix while Fergie was contemplating his retirement a decade ago?

Still completely incapable of answering a direct question with an actual answer. Very telling.

 

[Sarni]

Still completely incapable of answering a direct question with an actual answer. Very telling.

I don't think anyone has actually said that we are unable to win trophies as long as we play academy players. The point was that we've not been producing players who become core of our team but more players who end up being squad players, the core of our team in the last 15 years has been built around signings.

I don't get how winning trophies with squad players from academy somehow proves that we have huge history of bringing youth through and building our team around youngsters. The fact that the crucial players in all our trophies in recent years have actually been signed by the club when they were already developed goes to prove that it's indeed true that our academy has shifted from producing first team players in 1990s to producing supporting cast in 2000s.

 

[The red panther]

You could tell there was something seriously wrong with Chelsea's entire transfer approach last summer, I wouldn't worry too much about him not getting the players he wants. In fact, I wouldn't worry too much about the players themselves; if we get classic Mourinho rather than this season's Mourinho, he's one of the best at getting 200% out of some fairly average players.

That is the million dollar question isn't it ?

 

[DomesticTadpole]

That is the million dollar question isn't it ?

The fact that Chelsea still aren't in great shape suggest there was a lot going on behind the scenes at Chelsea. He also has a lot of petulant scumbags in his team who came back to bite him. He must regret buying some of them. You want strength of character in your players without the spoilt brat side.

 

[Mr Smith]

Jose could have had us challenging for title in 2013-14 I believe. He could have attracted more and better players than Fellaini as well to strengthen the squad.

I dunno, the transfer debacle in the summer of 2013 was down to a lot more than Moyes, Woodward had a big learning curve. I think that season was bogus no matter how came in, so many important figures off the pitch left the club at once. Mourinho might have kept us in the Champions League though, and certainly wouldn't have let us suffer embarrassments like defeats at home to Newcastle and that shocking first leg against Olympiakos.

 

[Dobba]

The fact that Chelsea still aren't in great shape suggest there was a lot going on behind the scenes at Chelsea. He also has a lot of petulant scumbags in his team who came back to bite him. He must regret buying some of them. You want strength of character in your players without the spoilt brat side.

His completely pointless summer signings have hardly helped matters either.

 

[Jacob]

That is the million dollar question isn't it ?

For me, it is a lot more certain than people make it out to be. I am not Mourinho's biggest fan by any means. I am however sure that he hasn't lost his ability to manage over night. I think the reason behind Chelsea's downfall this season is rooted deeper, in aspects we are not aware of.

 

[Eckers99]

My point exactly. Who was the last player to have come through the academy and became a vital part of not just the squad but the first team? I can't think of any since the 92' class. This notion that we produce such great players is a bit of a myth, we create a vast amount of players for other clubs, not so many for ourselves hence why in the last 10 plus years, our best players have been those that we've brought.

Even before the class of 92 it was a bit of a myth. Just look at the title winning team of 92/93 - with the exception of Giggs it was almost entirely made up of players we'd bought, quite a few for big-ish fees (Pallister, Ince, Parker). The class of 92 was the exception to the rule - it's an ideal more than anything.

We're clearly going to have to spend more to achieve more - and Mourinho has always done this, so it all fits.

 

[acnumber9]

Giggs had 4 games as interim with the championship all but over which he won 2. This time round it's a third of a season to go, our form is questionably the same as it was under Moyes tenure(at the end of it). I'm not sure both interim periods are comparable at this point. With LvG we won 4 out of 17 recently. Giggs was his assistant manager during that time, it's fair to say he shared some of the same ideas, now being an interim somehow will turn things round?



4 games is nothing really as interim. Neville also won games in the cups with Valencia. As said this time round there's 1/3 of the season left to be played, there will be even more pressure. Winning at home to Norwich and Hull that were 16th and relegated in the final standings? I'd say that's not very useful in this case.

But you're still not actually giving any reason why he'd do worse than Neville's record other than there now being more games. He was able to win games with a worse squad apparently so I'm sure he could win some with the vast array of talent we allegedly have now.

 

[Enigma_87]

Still completely incapable of answering a direct question with an actual answer. Very telling.

We both know the number - a lot, but I really don't see the actual point you are making here. Every team have squad players off the academy, even Real Madrid.

But again I'm sure that you know the reason behind winning those titles and that's not having those squad players but having Fergie as manager. They were utility players that were surrounded by world class talent that we bought.

Take a look at 2008/2009 CL finals and our team. Starting line up - Scholes and Brown in one of the finals - Giggs and O'shea in the other - everybody else in that line up was brought in from another club, some for record fees.

But you're still not actually given any reason why he'd do worse than Neville's record other than there now being more games. He was able to win games with a worse squad apparently so I'm sure he could win some with the vast array of talent we allegedly have now.

because of three things:

1. There will be even more pressure. Giggs was quoted saying during those 4 games that he was feeling the pressure and that he couldn't sleep at night.

2. While we presumably have a better squad right now(we're yet to see how that will pan out as the other one was in fact championship winning one) - he was an assistant manager in what was our worst form in 20 years or so. His ideas might very well be the same as what LvG employs and the horrific run of games he had recently.

3. We actually have something to lose as we're currently 5th and in cup competitions, not being at helm in dead rubbers.

 

[The red panther]

For me, it is a lot more certain than people make it out to be. I am not Mourinho's biggest fan by any means. I am however sure that he hasn't lost his ability to manage over night.

How do you explain this season then ?

 

[DomesticTadpole]

His completely pointless summer signings have hardly helped matters either.

He seems to have deliberately scuppered his club, because they just aren't his type of signing, if they were in the first place. Maybe if someone else was making decisions on players, then it might be a factor in his disillusionment with Chelsea.

 

[Mr Smith]

That is the million dollar question isn't it ?

I don't think so really. He'll be enthusiastic, energised, eager to repair his reputation. I'm more concerned with the problems that have perpetuated his entire career, like his tendency to publicly criticise individual players, indifference towards youth, the us-vs-them siege mentality, and just the general shambles clubs tend to get left in after he's gone (Inter).

 

[Jacob]

How do you explain this season then ?

I added a sentence after you quoted me. I don't know, but I think it is for reasons us mortals are not aware of. Motivation, trust, policy etc.

 

[The Man Himself]

I dunno, the transfer debacle in the summer of 2013 was down to a lot more than Moyes, Woodward had a big learning curve. I think that season was bogus no matter how came in, so many important figures off the pitch left the club at once. Mourinho might have kept us in the Champions League though, and certainly wouldn't have let us suffer embarrassments like defeats at home to Newcastle and that shocking first leg against Olympiakos.

Ya, how transfers would have gone is hypothetical scenario but at least the bolded bit would have been surety.

 

[SirAF]

I don't think so really. He'll be enthusiastic, energised, eager to repair his reputation. I'm more concerned with the problems that have perpetuated his entire career, like his tendency to publicly criticise individual players, indifference towards youth, the us-vs-them siege mentality, and just the general shambles clubs tend to get left in after he's gone (Inter).

That's more on Benitez than Mourinho to be fair. And I'm fairly sure that Inter are still sucking on the Treble caramel.

 

[Di Maria's angel]

Can't see the tweets. Can someone summarise the latest news?

 

[Mr Smith]

That's more on Benitez than Mourinho to be fair. And I'm fairly sure that Inter are still sucking on the Treble caramel.

Maybe so, but I found it really alarming how quickly that Inter side (which really was the same team that won the treble) declined after Mourinho left. Felt like they couldn't play without him. So it makes it a bit of a Catch 22; do you bring him in knowing he can lift players beyond their normal potential, but then have a serious dip once he's gone?

The fact that Chelsea still aren't in great shape suggest there was a lot going on behind the scenes at Chelsea. He also has a lot of petulant scumbags in his team who came back to bite him. He must regret buying some of them. You want strength of character in your players without the spoilt brat side.

This. A few of those players turned out to be real snakes, they downed tools on him. Not to say he was blameless, because he certainly wasn't, and really seemed to lose the plot for a couple of months there, but everything about their preparations for that season, from their pre-season games, to their transfer dealings, to the stuff Mourinho was saying in the press, all pointed to there being something rotten in Chelsea. I think there are problems that are far more perpetual than anyone realises over there, and they'll struggle a bit next season.

 

[R'hllor]

The idea of Mourinho coming is exciting, but I hope it is under the agreement that he will carry on bringing through youth and playing attacking football

I'd hate to see a player like Mensah end up a great at another club. Like Pogba.

If that cnut did that (putting more trust in younger players) this season he would still at Chelsea imo. The amount of senior players not performing at very start because he ran them into the ground last season and on top of that with one of worst pre season ever,he had options to put his trust in young players and i dont doubt they would perform better then Matic.Ivanovic etc.

 

[SirAF]

Can't see the tweets. Can someone summarise the latest news?

Lots of papers (El Confidencial, Telegraph etc) saying that Mendes is on the verge of clinching a 20m euro pa. deal until 2019 for Mourinho.

 

[CassiusClaymore]

Maybe so, but I found it really alarming how quickly that Inter side (which really was the same team that won the treble) declined after Mourinho left. Felt like they couldn't play without him. So it makes it a bit of a Catch 22; do you bring him in knowing he can lift players beyond their normal potential, but then have a serious dip once he's gone?

Sounds familiar....

 

[SirAF]

Maybe so, but I found it really alarming how quickly that Inter side (which really was the same team that won the treble) declined after Mourinho left. Felt like they couldn't play without him. So it makes it a bit of a Catch 22; do you bring him in knowing he can lift players beyond their normal potential, but then have a serious dip once he's gone?

Definitely a fair point, I would say that it is still a no-brainer though.

 

[Scorpy]

Can't see the tweets. Can someone summarise the latest news?

Telegraph, Mail and some others are saying Mourinho has told his ''friends'' that he'll be taking charge at United in the summer, though the Telegraph add ''If United decide to sack Van Gaal'' to the story.

There's also the El Confidencial story, according to which Mendes is finalising the details of Mourinho's contract with United - 20 million euros a year until 2019.

 

[Di Maria's angel]

Lots of papers (El Confidencial, Telegraph etc) saying that Mendes is on the verge of clinching a 20m euro pa. deal until 2019 for Mourinho.

@Scorpy Cheers.

 

[Mr Smith]

Sounds familiar....

This is pretty different. Mourinho won't stay for longer than 5 years, and that's being extremely optimistic. And it's not just the dip players have when he leaves, its the ruckus he makes when he's on the way out. The way he behaved at Madrid and the lasting fissures he created in the dressing room will give me nightmares if (when) we do appoint him.

 

[Enigma_87]

Maybe so, but I found it really alarming how quickly that Inter side (which really was the same team that won the treble) declined after Mourinho left. Felt like they couldn't play without him. So it makes it a bit of a Catch 22; do you bring him in knowing he can lift players beyond their normal potential, but then have a serious dip once he's gone?

sounds a lot familiar to what happened when we replaced Fergie with Moyes..

 

[kps88]

Just thinking, wouldn't Giggs be a good choice to run the academy rebuild.

Yeah that would be great if it worked out. If he is set on a career in management though, the best thing for him to do next is start proving himself at a smaller club.

 

[unchanged_lineup]

In desperation I'd go for this, but then I remember that I really, really hate Mourinho. Going to be very conflicted if this actually happens.

 

[Turnip]

In desperation I'd go for this, but then I remember that I really, really hate Mourinho. Going to be very conflicted if this actually happens.

Exactly the same. I'd actually rather our current form last until the end of the season and give LvG another chance. Hell, I'd probably rather take a punt with Giggs and risk ruining another season.

sounds a lot familiar to what happened when we replaced Fergie with Moyes..

The difference is there though that Fergie brought a 20-odd year high compared to a 2-3 year high the Jose tends to bring.

 

[stepic]

Exactly the same. I'd actually rather our current form last until the end of the season and give LvG another chance. Hell, I'd probably rather take a punt with Giggs and risk ruining another season.

The difference is there though that Fergie brought a 20-odd year high compared to a 2-3 year high the Jose tends to bring.

you're crazy

you seriously want us to languish outside the top 4 for another season just because you don't like jose's personality? I don't understand this kind of mentality

when we start winning again everyone is going to love the guy.

 

[Oneunited26]

You could tell there was something seriously wrong with Chelsea's entire transfer approach last summer, I wouldn't worry too much about him not getting the players he wants. In fact, I wouldn't worry too much about the players themselves; if we get classic Mourinho rather than this season's Mourinho, he's one of the best at getting 200% out of some fairly average players.

It reminded me of the transfer policy in the summer of 2007 at chelsea, something was not quiet right in the summer of 2006, signing players going against the Mourinho system. Still for me we have yet to see Mourinho at a club where he gets the freedom to pick his players, like VG was given for the past 2 summers, even though its questionable if Falcao and Di Maria was his type of signing's

you're crazy

you seriously want us to languish outside the top 4 for another season just because you don't like jose's personality? I don't understand this kind of mentality

when we start winning again everyone is going to love the guy.

Exactly, if he brings the success and playing standard when Jose is at his best, who would not want Mourinho? If we get the kind of consistency like at chelsea between 2004-06, 2014/15, everyone will love him. It would be a dream if he brought the kind of efficiency we saw from his teams programmed into the united team, MUFC will be a much happier place. It does not matter who the manager is, if they get us challenging and winning things that is the whole point of appointing the right guy, and I would be very interested how Mourinho does at a club like united

 

[unchanged_lineup]

you're crazy

you seriously want us to languish outside the top 4 for another season just because you don't like jose's personality? I don't understand this kind of mentality

when we start winning again everyone is going to love the guy.

Personality, actions, behaviour and what he does to a club. He's a pig.

 

[RedDevil@84]

I am still in the 19.9% of votes there. Given the choices, maybe we have no other choice