BBC: United hold talks with Mourinho

Would you be happy to see Jose Mourinho become next United manager?


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To be fair, and going on a tangent - Mourinho's spell at Madrid coincided with a return to greater emphasis on team ethic, rather than individualism in the highest level of football - with Barcelona's high pressing possession tactics (starting with Messi upfront - and running through the spine and out wide), Dortmund's brand of gegenpressing that dismantled Madrid, and arguably the most dominant side of the three year window, Bayern Munich.

eg. One of the biggest differences between Bayern in the 2011/ 2012 season (where they lost the European Cup final at home) and 2012/ 2013 (where they won the Big Ears) was the transformation of the likes of Robben and Ribéry from rather egoistical, at times frustrating individuals to gritty 'parts of the whole' - especially in terms of recovering lost balls, being more assertive in 50/50 situations, pressing up front, filling voids, counterpressing in wider areas, and supporting Lahm/ Alaba in the defensive game.


José demanded greater workrate from not just Cristiano, but Özil in the #10 position aswell - to supplement Benzema up front. And one might argue that Madrid would have had a greater chance to win the European Cup if the players (specifically Ronaldo and Özil) were more willing to chip in with the defensive work instead of being all woe is me, and concertrating on just the attacking game. Their left flank in particular - with Cristiano and Marcelo, was almost suicidal at times, and those details can cost you in the big moments. Fergie allowed greater freedom to Ronaldo because we had Tevez and Rooney to provide graft in the final third, as well as the likes of Fletcher, Park, and Hargreaves - who were like duracell bunnies in midfield and provided great tactical flexibility to a team.
Agreed. Thing with Real Madrid was, Mou had to compromise for their attacking stars. Madrid was never a completely Mou team where he had full control. The more Mou gets close to his ideal, the more the team becoming defensively formidable. This can be said about the second stint at Chelsea. Mou had toned down and was not backed to full extend as his first tint. He had to compromised with lesser quality in defense: David Luiz, Cahill, aged Terry, Cech & Ivanovic; inexperienced Zouma. Then he had Hazard not on the level that's worthy neglect of defensive duty, so Mou had to compromised. Bought Felippe Luiz who was one of the best balanced full backs, but couldn't work out with Hazard left him fully exposed. Understandably, Azpilicueta would give a better balance to the team since he is a defend first full back. This is not Mou ideal of building the team, but compromise to Abramovic's sexy football.

That's being said Mou ideal is not a full out attacking football. Mou uses exploiting tactic building strong team ethnic mixed with great disciplined. To those calling Mou ideal is defensive, that may be half true. However calling that football boring is hypocrite seeing SAF in later years using similar tactic. Bayern's counter attacking set up under Heynckes or Simeone's Atletico are also defensive but are entertaining.
 
It's most clearly what he was implying.

He was implying, I was inferring. You clearly need to take a class in grammar.

Haha yeah well I probably do!

But regarding what he (Lefty) was IMPLYING (there hope you're happy now), can you please explain why you think he was 'most clearly' implying this
So, because we didn't win the league, we shouldn't bother with 4th because it's beneath our dignity?
 
Haha yeah well I probably do!

But regarding what he (Lefty) was IMPLYING (there hope you're happy now), can you please explain why you think he was 'most clearly' implying this
He says "And we have let ourselves start to become like Arsenal if we start saying "a chance at 4th and the CL is not so bad". What we need to do is ensure that the win-all-or-nothing mentality is back, as it was in Fergie's time"

Is becoming like Arsenal not beneath our dignity?
 
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So, because we didn't win the league, we shouldn't bother with 4th because it's beneath our dignity?

We didn't set out this season aiming for 4th but we are where we are and we should aim for the highest finish we can achieve. Now that it's 4th, we should be putting all our effort into achieving that rather than sitting around moaning it's not good enough.

Boy you really are missing the point aren't you? I never said we shouldn't be bothered with 4th I said we should never put ourselves in a position where we can say "it's ok to be 4th".
 
...we should never put ourselves in a position where we can say "it's ok to be 4th".

Agreed 100%.
The problem is that some supporters are gradually getting brain washed into believing LVG's rhetoric that we should not live in the past and need to lower our standards.
3 seasons ago (not that long ago), Fergie would never even have dreamed of talking about 4th place is a grand achievement. 4th would be absolute failure.
LVG heralds the 4th place trophy as if he should be given a heroes welcome.

Jose, like Fergie, would look at 4th place, as failure.
 
Agreed 100%.
The problem is that some supporters are gradually getting brain washed into believing LVG's rhetoric that we should not live in the past and need to lower our standards.
3 seasons ago (not that long ago), Fergie would never even have dreamed of talking about 4th place is a grand achievement. 4th would be absolute failure.
LVG heralds the 4th place trophy as if he should be given a heroes welcome.

Jose, like Fergie, would look at 4th place, as failure.
When has van Gaal explicitly said that him and United see fourth as a success?
 
He says "And we have let ourselves start to become like Arsenal if we start saying "a chance at 4th and the CL is not so bad". What we need to do is ensure that the win-all-or-nothing mentality is back, as it was in Fergie's time"

Is becoming like Arsenal not beneath our dignity?

Yes.

Arsenal being content to be as it is now is also beneath that club.

If Manchester United considers itself one of the biggest clubs in the world. Something it should, given its wealth, support, and history. It should measure itself by clubs of comparable structure, right? Would Madrid, Barcelona, Bayern or Juventus, clubs who can compete with us on wealth, support, and history, accept scoring less than 50 league goals in a season? Would they think third loser and a Cup is good?

Arsenal fans are, rightly, revolting right now because they are sick of making up the numbers. They are historically speaking, London's biggest club, why should they not have higher aspirations? Arsenal makes tons of money, the ground is always full, their season tickets are more expensive than anyone else's.

Both teams should be doing better.
 
Agreed 100%.
The problem is that some supporters are gradually getting brain washed into believing LVG's rhetoric that we should not live in the past and need to lower our standards.
3 seasons ago (not that long ago), Fergie would never even have dreamed of talking about 4th place is a grand achievement. 4th would be absolute failure.
LVG heralds the 4th place trophy as if he should be given a heroes welcome.

Jose, like Fergie, would look at 4th place, as failure.

Wait, LvG said that the Champions League should only be for the champions. Which suggests to me he doesn't see 4th as an achievement and certainly not heralding it as a trophy.
 
When has van Gaal explicitly said that him and United see fourth as a success?
I suppose it's an question of perception. I'd be amazed if we finish 4th and he doesn't reference it as some sort of achievement ( largely because it is ), but he does have a habit of contextualizing success in a way that pisses people off.
 
Wait, LvG said that the Champions League should only be for the champions. Which suggests to me he doesn't see 4th as an achievement and certainly not heralding it as a trophy.

He is constantly talking about top 4. Top 4. Top 4. On numerous occasions.
When a manager repeatedly states something, its pretty clear that this is his target and if achieved, it is looked at as success.
For example, if Sunderland keep saying, our aim is to stay in the EPL, repeatedly. And then achieve it. The manager would absolutely class this as an achievement.
When you then consider that LVG has on numerous occasions, stated that we need re-evaluate our aims/targets, it is pretty clear what LVG is getting at.

The '4th place trophy' comes from Arsenal's exploits - a team who have become masters of winning this league position and upon finishing in 4th place, celebrate as if they've just won a trophy.
 
When has van Gaal explicitly said that him and United see fourth as a success?

He doesn't have to. Just look at his language to the press. He's happy enough that we're still in the top 4-5 whenever questioned about the title race and Champions League qualifications, not to mention he did explicitly say that Europa League was our level didn't he?
 
He is constantly talking about top 4. Top 4. Top 4. On numerous occasions.
When a manager repeatedly states something, its pretty clear that this is his target and if achieved, it is looked at as success.
For example, if Sunderland keep saying, our aim is to stay in the EPL, repeatedly. And then achieve it. The manager would absolutely class this as an achievement.
When you then consider that LVG has on numerous occasions, stated that we need re-evaluate our aims/targets, it is pretty clear what LVG is getting at.

The '4th place trophy' comes from Arsenal's exploits - a team who have become masters of winning this league position and upon finishing in 4th place, celebrate as if they've just won a trophy.

Exactly.
 
When has van Gaal explicitly said that him and United see fourth as a success?

He hasn't. Van Gaal knows what the expectations are at United and he knows he hasn't met them, both in terms of results and performances. He knows this because he'll be out of a job in a matter of weeks.

He's protecting himself and trying to deflect criticism. He's been battered by just about everyone this season, it's only human nature to seek small positives and defend oneself when facing such staunch opposition.

Any person that genuinely believes Van Gaal thinks finishing fourth on the last day of the season is meeting expectations - in a season Leicester City have won the league - is either stupid, or worse, pretending to be.
 
When he goes to PSG or Madrid in the summer I'm going to come back to this thread and piss myself with laughter :lol: because the only other option will be to cry and carry on watching LVG
I'm sure a Van Gaal pre season will wipe the smirk off you're face.
 
He is constantly talking about top 4. Top 4. Top 4. On numerous occasions.
When a manager repeatedly states something, its pretty clear that this is his target and if achieved, it is looked at as success.
For example, if Sunderland keep saying, our aim is to stay in the EPL, repeatedly. And then achieve it. The manager would absolutely class this as an achievement.
When you then consider that LVG has on numerous occasions, stated that we need re-evaluate our aims/targets, it is pretty clear what LVG is getting at.

The '4th place trophy' comes from Arsenal's exploits - a team who have become masters of winning this league position and upon finishing in 4th place, celebrate as if they've just won a trophy.

I can't agree with that, he was talking about the title in the early part of the year, yes, he has changed his tune to Champs League qualification but what do you expect him to say? He would get pelters on here if he came out and said finishing 4th is a failure, 'He is destroying the players etc etc' - he will know that 4th is a underachievement, but whilst he is still fighting for his job I wouldn't expect to hear anything else, other than what he is saying now.

Smalling in his interview said LvG has actually taken the pressure off the players by what he has been saying. I want LvG gone, it's been no fun this year and the atmosphere on the whole has been underwhelming, but everything he says and does, is wrong, he really can't win.
 
Agreed 100%.
The problem is that some supporters are gradually getting brain washed into believing LVG's rhetoric that we should not live in the past and need to lower our standards.
3 seasons ago (not that long ago), Fergie would never even have dreamed of talking about 4th place is a grand achievement. 4th would be absolute failure.
LVG heralds the 4th place trophy as if he should be given a heroes welcome.

Jose, like Fergie, would look at 4th place, as failure.
A total lack of understanding sport and what it means, taking part and having fun is for amateurs, winning is for professionals. Tiger Woods once said second place is just first loser. Coming first in everything should be more important to the club and supporters then playing youth. We will always give young players a chance but 99% of these players from our academy will not make it at a club like this. The club must do everything in its power to be the best and keeping Van Gaal or Giggs will not do that. Van Gaal has been booted from every club he has been involved with in the last fifteen years for exactly what he is doing now. Would Bayern give the job to Philip Lahm a year or two after he retires with no managerial experience , would Real give it to Casillas in the same situation? There is a romantic risk and a plain stupid risk. The romantic risk is hiring a class manager with the work ethic and attitude that can take us back to the pinnacle and the balls to manage a huge club with trophies to back it up, like Ferguson or Mourinho. The plain stupid risk would be to hire a guy who has history with the club but zilch in managerial experience, someone who expects to be given the big jobs without the graft, a Giggs or Sherwood.
Which direction is more favorable for a club like Manchester United considering the totally underwhelming three seasons?.
 
Agreed 100%.
The problem is that some supporters are gradually getting brain washed into believing LVG's rhetoric that we should not live in the past and need to lower our standards.
3 seasons ago (not that long ago), Fergie would never even have dreamed of talking about 4th place is a grand achievement. 4th would be absolute failure.
LVG heralds the 4th place trophy as if he should be given a heroes welcome.

Jose, like Fergie, would look at 4th place, as failure.

Agreed. I said it in the other post that i expect United to operate to the capacity of the club. With 4th place (God help us) we are like a half empty glass.
 
A total lack of understanding sport and what it means, taking part and having fun is for amateurs, winning is for professionals. Tiger Woods once said second place is just first loser. Coming first in everything should be more important to the club and supporters then playing youth. We will always give young players a chance but 99% of these players from our academy will not make it at a club like this. The club must do everything in its power to be the best and keeping Van Gaal or Giggs will not do that. Van Gaal has been booted from every club he has been involved with in the last fifteen years for exactly what he is doing now. Would Bayern give the job to Philip Lahm a year or two after he retires with no managerial experience , would Real give it to Casillas in the same situation? There is a romantic risk and a plain stupid risk. The romantic risk is hiring a class manager with the work ethic and attitude that can take us back to the pinnacle and the balls to manage a huge club with trophies to back it up, like Ferguson or Mourinho. The plain stupid risk would be to hire a guy who has history with the club but zilch in managerial experience, someone who expects to be given the big jobs without the graft, a Giggs or Sherwood.
Which direction is more favorable for a club like Manchester United considering the totally underwhelming three seasons?.

Well RM have done something similar with Zidane, but they're in a position of great strength. They've got an amazing squad and their league isn't especially competitive, so they can afford to take a punt every now and then. Also, they're a circus - not sure we should be looking to them as an example of how to choose and hire managers.
 
And I don't understand why you cite them at all. Who cares who else has become shite. The only thing we need to be concerned with is ourselves. And we have let ourselves start to become like Arsenal if we start saying "a chance at 4th and the CL is not so bad". What we need to do is ensure that the win-all-or-nothing mentality is back, as it was in Fergie's time. Jose has that mentality.

If you were teaching a class of students would you tell them that getting a 60% was "not so bad" if all the rest of the classes were scoring the same if you knew they could do better? Absolute not.

Id teach my students to take into consideration all the components of a problem and not focus one on thing being the reason for that problem. LVG made mistakes he is culpable but in no way is it entirely his fault.
 
Chelsea had Jose shifted for it, something most people accepted even after winning them the league again last season. City would have had Pellegrini shifted finishing 4th or 5th if they didn't already lined up Pep. Arsenal, yes we are becoming Arsenal. That is lowering expectations.

Thats your point of view. I dont equate 2 seasons with 12 but thats just me.
 
LVG only started mentioning top 4 when it became clear we weren't going to compete for the title. That doesn't mean the club sees that as success. I am pretty sure Ed Woodward doesn't see it as success. It also doesn't mean LVG will be sacked for anything below that achievement.
 
I can't agree with that, he was talking about the title in the early part of the year, yes, he has changed his tune to Champs League qualification but what do you expect him to say? He would get pelters on here if he came out and said finishing 4th is a failure, 'He is destroying the players etc etc' - he will know that 4th is a underachievement, but whilst he is still fighting for his job I wouldn't expect to hear anything else, other than what he is saying now.

Smalling in his interview said LvG has actually taken the pressure off the players by what he has been saying. I want LvG gone, it's been no fun this year and the atmosphere on the whole has been underwhelming, but everything he says and does, is wrong, he really can't win.
Poor substitutions, poor team selection, poor tactics, poor squad management, poor player management, poor media relations, poor self awareness. Just fecking poor. Leaving Rashford out of the squad and fecking around with Januzaj says it all about his indicisivness and a lucky Rooney assist to Mata totally glosses over a shocking performance from our manager. Philosophy is an excuse to stay in a job for three years and then if he gets the boot after two for the shite he has served up he blames the club and the players for not buying in to the three years. After what I have seen this season from Van Gaal and Giggs I dread another season with them at the helm. It has turned me off so bad that if we feck up hiring Mourinho I would rather give a wiser Moyes a two year contract and wait until Ancelotti is available. I like Louis, he's a weirdo, I like weirdos. I don't want him in charge of Manchester United because his football belongs in a past era of the game. I don't like Giggs because of the revelations of his personal life, a snake, selfish and a bit oblivious, definately not management material for a massive organization like United.
People need to realize the scope of our club. Take you're eyes of the pitch for a second and look at the club as a whole, we are fecking huge, massive and a bonafide institution in the game. Hundreds of millions in currency flow around it every second of everyday. Do we trust someone like Giggs to step in and manage this behemoth as he will be the figurehead of the football club, not a chance. Is Van Gaal a benefit or a hindrance to this club, a hindrance I would say.
Well RM have done something similar with Zidane, but they're in a position of great strength. They've got an amazing squad and their league isn't especially competitive, so they can afford to take a punt every now and then. Also, they're a circus - not sure we should be looking to them as an example of how to choose and hire managers.
just an example, not a serious consideration. I expect Zidane to be gone before the end of the calendar. Unfortunately with Giggs this club would give him more time then warranted regardless of results or form.
 
Id teach my students to take into consideration all the components of a problem and not focus one on thing being the reason for that problem. LVG made mistakes he is culpable but in no way is it entirely his fault.

True....At this point its 50% LVG's fault and 50% Ed's fault for keeping him in a job despite the performances on the pitch.
At no other top tier club would LVG still be in a job.
 
Id teach my students to take into consideration all the components of a problem and not focus one on thing being the reason for that problem. LVG made mistakes he is culpable but in no way is it entirely his fault.

That is not an unreasonable position to take but proportionality is also an important part of the analysis, which I am sure you teach to your students. Whatever happens after this reign of error, LVG will need to take a great portion of the blame. He is the manager, the performance and results stop with him. He should not pass the buck and this constant stream of excuses rings hollow and wears thin.
 
Yeah. I have to admit I sometimes worry about the same thing. The thought of us becoming just a mid table team is terrifying. Luckily there's nothing to suggest at the moment LVG will take us down to the bottom half of the table. Mourinho can't say the same....

You bang on that one season of Jose's and ignore all the other faults of all the other managers esp LvG... to each his own mate :).
 
Yeah. I have to admit I sometimes worry about the same thing. The thought of us becoming just a mid table team is terrifying. Luckily there's nothing to suggest at the moment LVG will take us down to the bottom half of the table. Mourinho can't say the same....
LVG did with Barcelona :rolleyes: He did an McLaren with Netherland national team and made them missed out on WC 2002 too.
 
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