Ballon d’Or 2024 — post-Messi era

Seems very generous to say he had a WC close to those two, R9 in particular. He didn’t win the golden boot and over half his goals were penalties. Good WC, very emotional for Argentina but hard to argue it was some amazing performance that will go down in history.

Nonsense. He was sensational at the World Cup, that’ll go down as the best individual World Cup showing of the modern era along with or maybe marginally behind Maradona in 86. Who cares about goals? He wasn’t playing as a centre forward, his best moments of the tournament were creative moments, although his goal against Mexico when Argentina were 30 minutes from going out was obviously a moment of high quality under real pressure. I’m not surprised some are in denial about it all though. But really I’m struggling to remember a better one I’ve seen.
 
Seems very generous to say he had a WC close to those two, R9 in particular. He didn’t win the golden boot and over half his goals were penalties. Good WC, very emotional for Argentina but hard to argue it was some amazing performance that will go down in history.

Thought you were comparing Messi's 2022 performance with Maradona 1986 or a Pele WC along with R9's 2002... but nope you're referring to Zidane's overrated 2006 WC :lol: . Yeah right, Messi's 2022 and even 2014 craps on 2006 Zidane.

What did Zidane do again in 2006? 2 goals from penalties, 1 goal against Spain late in the game when it was basically already won, an assist and some dancing around the midfield with tricks against Brazil and a headbutt and red card to cost his team because he couldn't handle some trash talking.
 
Seems very generous to say he had a WC close to those two, R9 in particular. He didn’t win the golden boot and over half his goals were penalties. Good WC, very emotional for Argentina but hard to argue it was some amazing performance that will go down in history.
By 2002 Ronaldo was a pure goal scorer, the quality of his general plays had considerably gone down.

Zidane actually did not have a good tournament in 2006 until THAT Brazil match (which was his only great performance). Before that game, there were calls to bench him.

AND Messi isn't just about the goals as was the case in Qatar. He was the standout out performer in the team that won the tournament. He had great performances vs Poland, Croatia and Australia, was v. good in the final and good vs Netherlands, produced the important goal vs Mexico and some great moments through the tournament including 2 amazing assists of the tournament vs Netherlands and Australia. You playing it down and reducing it to penalties shows your saltiness.[/QUOTE]
Too long to go through at this time but I made the point quite clearly if you have a specific issue with Haaland to just sub in KDB.

Your point on Ribéry proves the issue.

To say Xavi and Iniesta, particularly the former, were not MVPs because of (insert stat here) is like me saying Darren Bent is a better player than Cantona. Xavi ran every side he played in. I think Messi even apologised to them when he won given how stupid the voting system is.
Messi was hands down the best player in the year 2010 and not just because of the stats. Spain had no stand out performer in the world cup that year; that helped his cause. They won every game 1-0. And Messi apologising is a figment of your imagination.
Same reason Messi won it off the back of a single World Cup tourney. The award has become very narrative driven these days.
Messi was unquestionably Argentina's best player and the tournament's best player (some may say Griezmann but he did not turn ip in the final). In most years, the world cup is decisive in these awards.

I don't think yhr overhyped English player has that ability.
 
WC does trump all IMO, but what you're forgetting is that it's not just Messi being part of a WC winning team, it's the fact that he scored in every round (with a lot of pens, to be fair), but also had more MOTM awards than any other player in WC history, including 2 goals and a MOTM award in the final. City would be dominant with or without Haaland, and he is not the reason that they won the CL as he didn't actually score any goals in the semi final or the final. It was very much a team effort with them, even though Haaland got a lot of the attention because he was so prolific
Again, if you have a specific problem with Haaland given he is pure output it doesn’t explain how KDB wouldn’t be ahead of Messi.
 
I think @Taribo's Gap explained it better than I could. If you don't think Messi's performances in 2022 qualify as some of the best in that context, I am afraid it's just a matter of what we prioritize. I happen to think that that Argentina team is easily the worst individually out of WC winners since my first memories back in 1994. Their centre backs were a City reject and a guy who was part of a meme defence at Spurs. Their midfielders were young inexperience quantities playing for the likes of Benfica and Brighton. It was basically Messi and Di Maria who made things happen and that was evident in more or less every game. If you think that was not good enough, then you're right, a City player should have won it that year.
Yes that’s exactly what I think. Literally look at the arguments for, you’re basically saying 1 good goal vs Mexico (that was a key goal) and a great assist plus just having a good tournament trumps a treble winning team.
 
Nonsense. He was sensational at the World Cup, that’ll go down as the best individual World Cup showing of the modern era along with or maybe marginally behind Maradona in 86. Who cares about goals? He wasn’t playing as a centre forward, his best moments of the tournament were creative moments, although his goal against Mexico when Argentina were 30 minutes from going out was obviously a moment of high quality under real pressure. I’m not surprised some are in denial about it all though. But really I’m struggling to remember a better one I’ve seen.
Who cares about goals? He literally had a free role to basically create and score. I’m not saying he was bad, or that he didn’t have a good tournament in general but it wasn’t enough alone to win the BdO because the BdO had set the precedent when they overlooked the Spain win.
 
Who cares about goals? He literally had a free role to basically create and score. I’m not saying he was bad, or that he didn’t have a good tournament in general but it wasn’t enough alone to win the BdO because the BdO had set the precedent when they overlooked the Spain win.

In the Spain win, Messi had a stellar season in general. With Messi its just not the goals. Its his supreme attributes. Messi was already better at what Iniesta could do in general. Better dribbler, just as good a passer and a mental goalscorer. Its his combined attruitbutes that put him there. And back in 2010 scoring 40+ goals was still something sort of new which Messi and Ronnie made normal.

Also Messi was PSG's best player in the 2021/2022 season together with Mpabbe. He was much better than the previous season. Not saying it was legendary, but as a goal scoring engache it was good.

But i wouldn't have protested if Mpabbe or Haaland had won that Ballon d'or or KDB even. If France had won that pentalty shootout Mpabbe surely would have won it.

WC bias is common. Ronaldo Nazario won it 2022 despite scoring 7 goals for Inter. Suker finished 2nd in 1998 despite being a benchwarmer for Madrid. Cannavaro won it despite playing for a relegated Juventus side.

The difference in 2010 was just that Messi looked a class above anyone else. And continued that way throughout his prime where mainly only Ronnie could beat him when he won a CL. And erm Modric.
 
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but also had more MOTM awards than any other player in WC history,
Yeah, about that - that's 6 tournaments, not exactly history...
I agree, Vinicius would be one of the weakest winners in recent history at the current moment. Not saying he wouldn’t deserve it as you have to pick someone but there’s nobody truly outstanding.
Once again, this kind of comments really are eye opening in terms of how much Messi and Cristiano have warped perception. A closer look will tell you that Vini just had a better CL run than Dinho in '06...just more impactful and decisive all around...
Nonsense. He was sensational at the World Cup, that’ll go down as the best individual World Cup showing of the modern era along with or maybe marginally behind Maradona in 86.
...have you ever seen Maradona in '86??? I don't disagree about Messi having the best individual tournament since Maradona (Romario in '94 also has a shout) but marginally behind Maradona? About as marginally as we're living marginally above the planet's core :lol:

As for 2010: it's simple really. Fans voted Messi because they're fans, and team captains/coaches voted Messi because their votes were never serious. Messi doesn't win that BdO under the old/current format
 
In the Spain win, Messi had a stellar season in general. With Messi its just not the goals. Its his supreme attributes. Messi was already better at what Iniesta could do in general. Better dribbler, just as good a passer and a mental goalscorer. Its his combined attruitbutes that put him there. And back in 2010 scoring 40+ goals was still something sort of new which Messi and Ronnie made normal.

Also Messi was PSG's best player in the 2021/2022 season together with Mpabbe. He was much better than the previous season. Not saying it was legendary, but as a goal scoring engache it was good.

But i wouldn't have protested if Mpabbe or Haaland had won that Ballon d'or or KDB even. If France had won that pentalty shootout Mpabbe surely would have won it.

WC bias is common. Ronaldo Nazario won it 2022 despite scoring 7 goals for Inter. Suker finished 2nd in 1998 despite being a benchwarmer for Madrid. Cannavaro won it despite playing for a relegated Juventus side.

The difference in 2010 was just that Messi looked a class above anyone else. And continued that way throughout his prime where mainly only Ronnie could beat him when he won a CL. And erm Modric.
I agree re Messi supreme attributes back in the day but not recent times. The 2010 award I think was a bit silly not to go to Iniesta or Xavi but I get individually Messi was incredible that year - my issue is, bearing that specifically in mind, how the feck does he win it based off a WC when he's competing against a team who has won the treble? Sorry if I am missing some replies but someone was saying to me he did a great assist versus Netherlands and he scored a clutch goal versus Mexico - that's great - but let's be honest, international football isn't that high a level outside of a few teams, a great goal versus Mexico is like someone saying Foden scored a worldie versus Wolves or something similar. It's impressive for being in a knock out game, it's not impressive in itself. I will say Ronaldo WC bias I get although the counter point is he scored 7 goals from open play in the WC whereas Messi only scored 3 because Rivaldo/Ronaldinho took penalties.

The only argument no one has said but makes sense, which I thought of whilst replying here is it is possible FIFA simply refuse to acknowledge City because of the cheating and so journos know they should be voting for others but there's no metric which means Messi should have won it last time, other than his name is Messi and we attribute him with being the best.
 
Yeah, about that - that's 6 tournaments, not exactly history...

Once again, this kind of comments really are eye opening in terms of how much Messi and Cristiano have warped perception. A closer look will tell you that Vini just had a better CL run than Dinho in '06...just more impactful and decisive all around...

...have you ever seen Maradona in '86??? I don't disagree about Messi having the best individual tournament since Maradona (Romario in '94 also has a shout) but marginally behind Maradona? About as marginally as we're living marginally above the planet's core :lol:

As for 2010: it's simple really. Fans voted Messi because they're fans, and team captains/coaches voted Messi because their votes were never serious. Messi doesn't win that BdO under the old/current format
Disagree with so much here as usual.

A) 6 tournaments is 24 years, so that's a pretty long time and a lot of good players. Yes, they were not giving MOTM awards to Uruguayan players in 1930, but that doesn't make what Messi did less significant.

B) Your general point is correct (Messi and Ronaldo have warped people's perceptions), but then you ruin it with a bad example. If you are saying that Vini Jr had a better CL run because of stats, then you probably need to go back and watch Ronaldinho's performances in the 2006 CL. Key in that was he and teenage Messi terrorising a Chelsea defence that was far stronger than any Vini Jr faced in this year's CL.

C) Finally you've got something right. Yes, Messi performance in 2022 was not close to Maradona's in 1986. But he was 35 and Maradona was 25. And for some reason, when Messi was the equivalent age, he wasn't bringing his best form to his nation.
 
I agree re Messi supreme attributes back in the day but not recent times. The 2010 award I think was a bit silly not to go to Iniesta or Xavi but I get individually Messi was incredible that year - my issue is, bearing that specifically in mind, how the feck does he win it based off a WC when he's competing against a team who has won the treble? Sorry if I am missing some replies but someone was saying to me he did a great assist versus Netherlands and he scored a clutch goal versus Mexico - that's great - but let's be honest, international football isn't that high a level outside of a few teams, a great goal versus Mexico is like someone saying Foden scored a worldie versus Wolves or something similar. It's impressive for being in a knock out game, it's not impressive in itself. I will say Ronaldo WC bias I get although the counter point is he scored 7 goals from open play in the WC whereas Messi only scored 3 because Rivaldo/Ronaldinho took penalties.

The only argument no one has said but makes sense, which I thought of whilst replying here is it is possible FIFA simply refuse to acknowledge City because of the cheating and so journos know they should be voting for others but there's no metric which means Messi should have won it last time, other than his name is Messi and we attribute him with being the best.

I'm not trying to be snide, but did you even watch the last World Cup? You don't seem to think much of international football and I know a lot of fans were boycotting the Qatar World Cup.
 
Yes that’s exactly what I think. Literally look at the arguments for, you’re basically saying 1 good goal vs Mexico (that was a key goal) and a great assist plus just having a good tournament trumps a treble winning team.
Yes, that makes sense if you reduce everything to goals and assists and don't actually watch games. As people are also able to judge performances, it's a bit more involved than that. Like when Luka won it, his all round performances in the World Cup were exceptional.
 
I agree re Messi supreme attributes back in the day but not recent times. The 2010 award I think was a bit silly not to go to Iniesta or Xavi but I get individually Messi was incredible that year - my issue is, bearing that specifically in mind, how the feck does he win it based off a WC when he's competing against a team who has won the treble? Sorry if I am missing some replies but someone was saying to me he did a great assist versus Netherlands and he scored a clutch goal versus Mexico - that's great - but let's be honest, international football isn't that high a level outside of a few teams, a great goal versus Mexico is like someone saying Foden scored a worldie versus Wolves or something similar. It's impressive for being in a knock out game, it's not impressive in itself. I will say Ronaldo WC bias I get although the counter point is he scored 7 goals from open play in the WC whereas Messi only scored 3 because Rivaldo/Ronaldinho took penalties.

The only argument no one has said but makes sense, which I thought of whilst replying here is it is possible FIFA simply refuse to acknowledge City because of the cheating and so journos know they should be voting for others but there's no metric which means Messi should have won it last time, other than his name is Messi and we attribute him with being the best.

I dunno. Players give 100% in the world cup and this wasn't really a great Argentina team in terms of player quality. They had great synergy, workrate and mentality but bottled leads and were clueless up front if Messi and Di Maria didnt pull something of their hats. Messi set the record for most motm awards at a World cup since they started that trend, was player of the tournament at 35 and had iconic assists in quarters and semis vs Holland and Croatia and scored 2 goals in the final vs France. I agree there is a lot of narratives at these awards and i think "Messi's last dance" ending with the trophy he lacked and wanted the most had all the football journalists wanking themselves.

I still don't think Haaland is the best player in the world. Best poacher perhaps but he beat historic records in his 1st season so i know its disingenuous. If he'd been really decisive in CL knockouts perhaps it would have been closer, but if France had won the final it would have been Mpabbe anyway.
 
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I think Vini deserves it. He's been excellent most of the time I've watched Madrid play.
Been involved in 22 goals (goals + assists) in the CL knockout stages too, which is very impressive.

 
Ballon d'Or will come down to whoever wins the Euros.

This award is all about narratives, it was never about "the best football player". It just happened that for a long time, the best football players also had the most dominant narratives in football in the Messi-Ronaldo era. But after these two faded, it's now all about whatever the dominant narrative will be come end of the summer.

Ballon d'Or always favored the international tournaments and it has always been very euro-centric (I mean they didn't even give it to non-Euros until not so long ago), and since there isn't a clear candidate in club football, it will surely be based on whatever happens on the Euros. They don't care about Copa America.

Unless some underdog team with no big name players wins the tournament, the award will be given to a big name player from a winning team. It will be a mixture of having a good tournament and a decent club season, and being an established marketable big name player that they could sell.

If France wins the Euros it's between Mbappe or perhaps Griezmann (if he has an amazing tournament and Mbappe does nothing special). Mbappe has been considered best player in the world by many for a while, while Griezmann has had a great season at Atletico so far. If either of the two go on a tear and win the Euros for France, they're locked to win it. Both are very marketable.

If England wins the Euros I think Harry Kane will win it. The storyline of winning his first trophy as a captain of England while also bringing his country the first major tournament win after such a long time will be too good to ignore. He's had a good enough club season individually to back it up. If he's also the top scorer of the Euro on top of winning it as the captain, the Ballon d'Or is his, it wouldn't even be a discussion. The only way I can see Bellingham winning it over Kane in case of England winning the Euros is if the latter goes missing in the crucial games (either literally due to cards or an injury, or metaphorically if he has really bad games) and Bellingham goes into beast mode.

If Portugal wins the Euros it's Cristiano Ronaldo unless he's relegated to the bench. If Ronaldo is not a factor in the Portugal win I might see them doing a "Cannavaro" and give it to a defender like Ruben Dias to avoid accusation that Ballon d'Or is biased in favor of offensive players. Bernardo Silva is also a candidate.

If Germany wins the Euros then Kroos surely takes it. They might just give him the Ballon d'Or together with the Euro trophy on the award celebrations. If Kroos is injured and doesn't play, is it too crazy to think that Neuer might win it if he has amazing performances in the tournament? It would be sold as "fair" since he missed out on 2014 Ballon d'Or when many thought he deserved it. It would also be seen as some sort of lifetime achievement award and recognition, and it's been long since a goalkeeper won it. Finally rewarding the best goalkeeper of his generation would be an amazing storyline, and very marketable.

If Spain wins it it's Rodri or maybe Carvajal.

If Croatia wins it Modrić wins the Ballon d'Or again. No way around it.

If Holland wins it Van Dijk would have a solid claim. He was phenomenal this year and many think he should have won it in the past. If not Van Dijk maybe Teun Koopmeiners (if he goes on a purple patch and is the player of the tournament) as he had an incredible season at Atalanta and won the Europa League.

If Belgium wins it Courtois has a claim as he played in the CL final and he's also an established and marketable player.

Other teams don't really have a chance to win it or lack the big name players that could be sold as Ballon d'Or winners. But if something crazy happens like if Ukraine wins it, surely they give the Ballon d'Or to an Ukrainian player as the country is in war.

Before anyone attacks me for giving such unlikely scenarios, yes I understand that some of these countries are very unlikely to win it, but imagine IF. My point is that Ballon d'Or is completely narrative-based and if something wild happens like Croatia winning the Euro, can you really imagine Modrić not getting a Ballon d'Or? It would be his without question. No one would care he's not the best player in the world anymore. It's about selling storylines.
 
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I agree re Messi supreme attributes back in the day but not recent times. The 2010 award I think was a bit silly not to go to Iniesta or Xavi but I get individually Messi was incredible that year - my issue is, bearing that specifically in mind, how the feck does he win it based off a WC when he's competing against a team who has won the treble? Sorry if I am missing some replies but someone was saying to me he did a great assist versus Netherlands and he scored a clutch goal versus Mexico - that's great - but let's be honest, international football isn't that high a level outside of a few teams, a great goal versus Mexico is like someone saying Foden scored a worldie versus Wolves or something similar. It's impressive for being in a knock out game, it's not impressive in itself. I will say Ronaldo WC bias I get although the counter point is he scored 7 goals from open play in the WC whereas Messi only scored 3 because Rivaldo/Ronaldinho took penalties.

The only argument no one has said but makes sense, which I thought of whilst replying here is it is possible FIFA simply refuse to acknowledge City because of the cheating and so journos know they should be voting for others but there's no metric which means Messi should have won it last time, other than his name is Messi and we attribute him with being the best.


I can only speak for myself but Haaland just didn't convince and in my opinion Messi performed better than Mbappe both at the WC as well as domestically. Haaland scored an unreal amount of goals but he contributes not much outside of it. Messi was a shadow of his former self in terms of athletcisism in that season but his technique and especially his football IQ still were surreal. I mean, he had 41 goal contributions for PSG that season from a very deep position. It's even more crazy when you see his heatmap. He played deeper than most AMs and very few AMs get close to such numbers. And only a fraction of his good plays lead to goals or assists. People apply different standards to Messi.
 
Once again, this kind of comments really are eye opening in terms of how much Messi and Cristiano have warped perception. A closer look will tell you that Vini just had a better CL run than Dinho in '06...just more impactful and decisive all around...

I disagree I think Ronaldinho was another level as a player back then to Vinicius, Henry was too but both had poor finals and average World Cups so counted against them. If you go back further than Vini is probably as good as Nedved/Shevchenko alright.
 
Messi was unquestionably Argentina's best player and the tournament's best player (some may say Griezmann but he did not turn ip in the final). In most years, the world cup is decisive in these awards.

I don't think yhr overhyped English player has that ability.

I'm not even English you newbie don't know why you're delegating Jude to me :lol:
 
Who cares about goals? He literally had a free role to basically create and score. I’m not saying he was bad, or that he didn’t have a good tournament in general but it wasn’t enough alone to win the BdO because the BdO had set the precedent when they overlooked the Spain win.

He’s not a centre forward, so why would you whittle it down to “he shouldn’t have won because most of his goals were penalties?”. He did score in the final too you know, from open play. More MoTM awards than anyone’s ever had at a World Cup. People can pretend it was just a good WC if they like, but most would disagree, and he’s not had the benefit of decades of nostalgia with that. His performances in every game apart from the opening one against the worst side they faced, were excellent.

Yeah, about that - that's 6 tournaments, not exactly history...

Once again, this kind of comments really are eye opening in terms of how much Messi and Cristiano have warped perception. A closer look will tell you that Vini just had a better CL run than Dinho in '06...just more impactful and decisive all around...

...have you ever seen Maradona in '86??? I don't disagree about Messi having the best individual tournament since Maradona (Romario in '94 also has a shout) but marginally behind Maradona? About as marginally as we're living marginally above the planet's core :lol:

As for 2010: it's simple really. Fans voted Messi because they're fans, and team captains/coaches voted Messi because their votes were never serious. Messi doesn't win that BdO under the old/current format

Yes I’ve seen it. I understand why it’s revered the way it is because of the extent to which one player stood out. But misty eyed nostalgia has certainly done a lot for it, it also features one of the most overhyped goals ever where he runs about 50 yards before Peter Shilton (the England keeper) becomes the first man to have a proper go at getting the ball after he crosses the halfway line because others were on yellow cards and scared to touch him.
 
I'm not trying to be snide, but did you even watch the last World Cup? You don't seem to think much of international football and I know a lot of fans were boycotting the Qatar World Cup.
Yes but surely you agree international football isn’t the same level as domestic? I don’t think that’s controversial in anyway. Example was meant to show a top tier team (Arg were 2nd fave behind Brazil using opta) playing a good but not top tier team (Mexico) and the drop off in quality is quite big.

@Kwabs

That’s the opposite of what I want hence why you’ll find me throughout my time here bemoaning how goals tend to cloud people’s judgements of how good players are. But I’m pointing out the BdO made that how it judged things before, it seems to have just changed it when Messi was declining

@Gehrman yep agreed but I think KDB then should have been the shoe in for it if we’re not going off stats. In the end it doesn’t matter, it’s not someone has been awarded a trophy for no reason but I am happy we will hopefully see a lot more different winners from now.

@Joel Miller not sure that logic holds as he has a free attacking role. You can argue a CF in a pressing setup will have less chances/moments whereas Arg setup so everything basically goes through Messi. It’s the same benefits Ronaldo used to have and Haaland has at City. Their teams are geared up for them to have as much possible time/chances to make the difference, it’s not like either of them is grafting out of possession or even being a key part of any tactical plan.
 
A) 6 tournaments is 24 years, so that's a pretty long time and a lot of good players. Yes, they were not giving MOTM awards to Uruguayan players in 1930, but that doesn't make what Messi did less significant.
That's 6 tournaments out of 22. Relevant, yeah, but not that relevant

If you are saying that Vini Jr had a better CL run because of stats, then you probably need to go back and watch Ronaldinho's performances in the 2006 CL.
I remember them well enough. And I reiterate, he wasn't as impactful as Vini overall

Key in that was he and teenage Messi terrorising a Chelsea defence
Messi terrorized Chelsea at SB, Dinho not so much. Great in the second leg though and awesome goal. Vini dismantled Bayern. Dinho had an assist and was generally good against Milan. Vini had 2 assists and was generally good against City. Dinho scored and entertained against Benfica. Vini scored on Leipzig but this one goes to Dinho I'll give you that. Dinho was bad in the final. Vini scored and was decidedly, not bad

I'll take Vini's run all in all
I disagree I think Ronaldinho was another level as a player back then to Vinicius, Henry was too but both had poor finals and average World Cups so counted against them. If you go back further than Vini is probably as good as Nedved/Shevchenko alright.
Dinho was a better player, obviously. But the BdO is won based on performance over the season, and Vini's is right in line with most BdO seasons pre-Messi/Cristiano is my point
 
Yes but surely you agree international football isn’t the same level as domestic? I don’t think that’s controversial in anyway. Example was meant to show a top tier team (Arg were 2nd fave behind Brazil using opta) playing a good but not top tier team (Mexico) and the drop off in quality is quite big.

@Kwabs

That’s the opposite of what I want hence why you’ll find me throughout my time here bemoaning how goals tend to cloud people’s judgements of how good players are. But I’m pointing out the BdO made that how it judged things before, it seems to have just changed it when Messi was declining

@Gehrman yep agreed but I think KDB then should have been the shoe in for it if we’re not going off stats. In the end it doesn’t matter, it’s not someone has been awarded a trophy for no reason but I am happy we will hopefully see a lot more different winners from now.

@Joel Miller not sure that logic holds as he has a free attacking role. You can argue a CF in a pressing setup will have less chances/moments whereas Arg setup so everything basically goes through Messi. It’s the same benefits Ronaldo used to have and Haaland has at City. Their teams are geared up for them to have as much possible time/chances to make the difference, it’s not like either of them is grafting out of possession or even being a key part of any tactical plan.

No, two of those played in sides geared up to create as many scoring chances for them as possible. The other was as much of a creator as he was anything. Surely logic and common sense says that if you just want to be on the end of the chances then you don’t play anywhere near as deep as Messi did. Yeah the side was built around him, but to have him on the ball dictating play and creating chances, not just to get him on the end of scoring chances, so trying to make his tournament performance about nothing other than goals is ridiculous, particularly when his best moments were creative moments.
 
No, two of those played in sides geared up to create as many scoring chances for them as possible. The other was as much of a creator as he was anything. Surely logic and common sense says that if you just want to be on the end of the chances then you don’t play anywhere near as deep as Messi did. Yeah the side was built around him, but to have him on the ball dictating play and creating chances, not just to get him on the end of scoring chances, so trying to make his tournament performance about nothing other than goals is ridiculous, particularly when his best moments were creative moments.
Yeah I don’t get that argument. Whichever way you slice it, Messi had a World Cup which is right up there as one of the best individual tournament performances of all time.
 
No, two of those played in sides geared up to create as many scoring chances for them as possible. The other was as much of a creator as he was anything. Surely logic and common sense says that if you just want to be on the end of the chances then you don’t play anywhere near as deep as Messi did. Yeah the side was built around him, but to have him on the ball dictating play and creating chances, not just to get him on the end of scoring chances, so trying to make his tournament performance about nothing other than goals is ridiculous, particularly when his best moments were creative moments.
Yes so you look at the wider attacking stats… not sure what’s hard about this idea, being deeper doesn’t mean you aren’t in a free role.
 
Yes so you look at the wider attacking stats… not sure what’s hard about this idea, being deeper doesn’t mean you aren’t in a free role.

Huh? That’s what I suggested doing. You seemed to be implying his WC wasn’t actually that great because most of his goals were penalties.

I never said anything about him not having a free role, i said he wasn’t playing as a centre forward, Argentina’s game plan wasn’t to try and create chances for Messi, hence him playing as deep as he was. Having a free role doesn’t mean you’re the guy who gets all the scoring chances. I think it’s you who has the issue comprehending his role during that tournament.
 
I agree re Messi supreme attributes back in the day but not recent times. The 2010 award I think was a bit silly not to go to Iniesta or Xavi but I get individually Messi was incredible that year - my issue is, bearing that specifically in mind, how the feck does he win it based off a WC when he's competing against a team who has won the treble? Sorry if I am missing some replies but someone was saying to me he did a great assist versus Netherlands and he scored a clutch goal versus Mexico - that's great - but let's be honest, international football isn't that high a level outside of a few teams, a great goal versus Mexico is like someone saying Foden scored a worldie versus Wolves or something similar. It's impressive for being in a knock out game, it's not impressive in itself. I will say Ronaldo WC bias I get although the counter point is he scored 7 goals from open play in the WC whereas Messi only scored 3 because Rivaldo/Ronaldinho took penalties.

The only argument no one has said but makes sense, which I thought of whilst replying here is it is possible FIFA simply refuse to acknowledge City because of the cheating and so journos know they should be voting for others but there's no metric which means Messi should have won it last time, other than his name is Messi and we attribute him with being the best.
You do realise that the award is based on a democratic vote. The majority of journalists voted for Messi. If you disagree, that's your problem. Messi was a deserved winner base's on the world cup which had traditionally decided this award.

Haaland would also have been a worthy winner but disappeared for City when it mattered most plus his way of playing is not exactly eye catching.
I can only speak for myself but Haaland just didn't convince and in my opinion Messi performed better than Mbappe both at the WC as well as domestically. Haaland scored an unreal amount of goals but he contributes not much outside of it. Messi was a shadow of his former self in terms of athletcisism in that season but his technique and especially his football IQ still were surreal. I mean, he had 41 goal contributions for PSG that season from a very deep position. It's even more crazy when you see his heatmap. He played deeper than most AMs and very few AMs get close to such numbers. And only a fraction of his good plays lead to goals or assists. People apply different standards to Messi.

It's just hate.
Ballon d'Or will come down to whoever wins the Euros.

This award is all about narratives, it was never about "the best football player". It just happened that for a long time, the best football players also had the most dominant narratives in football in the Messi-Ronaldo era. But after these two faded, it's now all about whatever the dominant narrative will be come end of the summer.

Ballon d'Or always favored the international tournaments and it has always been very euro-centric (I mean they didn't even give it to non-Euros until not so long ago), and since there isn't a clear candidate in club football, it will surely be based on whatever happens on the Euros. They don't care about Copa America.

Unless some underdog team with no big name players wins the tournament, the award will be given to a big name player from a winning team. It will be a mixture of having a good tournament and a decent club season, and being an established marketable big name player that they could sell.

If France wins the Euros it's between Mbappe or perhaps Griezmann (if he has an amazing tournament and Mbappe does nothing special). Mbappe has been considered best player in the world by many for a while, while Griezmann has had a great season at Atletico so far. If either of the two go on a tear and win the Euros for France, they're locked to win it. Both are very marketable.

If England wins the Euros I think Harry Kane will win it. The storyline of winning his first trophy as a captain of England while also bringing his country the first major tournament win after such a long time will be too good to ignore. He's had a good enough club season individually to back it up. If he's also the top scorer of the Euro on top of winning it as the captain, the Ballon d'Or is his, it wouldn't even be a discussion. The only way I can see Bellingham winning it over Kane in case of England winning the Euros is if the latter goes missing in the crucial games (either literally due to cards or an injury, or metaphorically if he has really bad games) and Bellingham goes into beast mode.

If Portugal wins the Euros it's Cristiano Ronaldo unless he's relegated to the bench. If Ronaldo is not a factor in the Portugal win I might see them doing a "Cannavaro" and give it to a defender like Ruben Dias to avoid accusation that Ballon d'Or is biased in favor of offensive players. Bernardo Silva is also a candidate.

If Germany wins the Euros then Kroos surely takes it. They might just give him the Ballon d'Or together with the Euro trophy on the award celebrations. If Kroos is injured and doesn't play, is it too crazy to think that Neuer might win it if he has amazing performances in the tournament? It would be sold as "fair" since he missed out on 2014 Ballon d'Or when many thought he deserved it. It would also be seen as some sort of lifetime achievement award and recognition, and it's been long since a goalkeeper won it. Finally rewarding the best goalkeeper of his generation would be an amazing storyline, and very marketable.

If Spain wins it it's Rodri or maybe Carvajal.

If Croatia wins it Modrić wins the Ballon d'Or again. No way around it.

If Holland wins it Van Dijk would have a solid claim. He was phenomenal this year and many think he should have won it in the past. If not Van Dijk maybe Teun Koopmeiners (if he goes on a purple patch and is the player of the tournament) as he had an incredible season at Atalanta and won the Europa League.

If Belgium wins it Courtois has a claim as he played in the CL final and he's also an established and marketable player.

Other teams don't really have a chance to win it or lack the big name players that could be sold as Ballon d'Or winners. But if something crazy happens like if Ukraine wins it, surely they give the Ballon d'Or to an Ukrainian player as the country is in war.

Before anyone attacks me for giving such unlikely scenarios, yes I understand that some of these countries are very unlikely to win it, but imagine IF. My point is that Ballon d'Or is completely narrative-based and if something wild happens like Croatia winning the Euro, can you really imagine Modrić not getting a Ballon d'Or? It would be his without question. No one would care he's not the best player in the world anymore. It's about selling storylines.
When was the last time the Euros decided the ballon dor?

Ronaldo won it in 2016 but more due to the ucl win with Real Madrid and generally typically great stats over the season. He was actually quite average at the Euros. No way he wins it without the ucl.

The last time a player won the ballond'or based solely on the European championships was Sammer in 1996 and that was by 1 point over R9. So, it being Eurocentric isn't necessarily true especially after inclusion of non Europeans in the run for the award. There is the hype bit, but still someone will have to have a really great tournament ( to win it over Vinicius. As things stand, there is a stand out candidate and it is Vinicius.
Yes but surely you agree international football isn’t the same level as domestic? I don’t think that’s controversial in anyway. Example was meant to show a top tier team (Arg were 2nd fave behind Brazil using opta) playing a good but not top tier team (Mexico) and the drop off in quality is quite big.

@Kwabs

That’s the opposite of what I want hence why you’ll find me throughout my time here bemoaning how goals tend to cloud people’s judgements of how good players are. But I’m pointing out the BdO made that how it judged things before, it seems to have just changed it when Messi was declining

@Gehrman yep agreed but I think KDB then should have been the shoe in for it if we’re not going off stats. In the end it doesn’t matter, it’s not someone has been awarded a trophy for no reason but I am happy we will hopefully see a lot more different winners from now.

@Joel Miller not sure that logic holds as he has a free attacking role. You can argue a CF in a pressing setup will have less chances/moments whereas Arg setup so everything basically goes through Messi. It’s the same benefits Ronaldo used to have and Haaland has at City. Their teams are geared up for them to have as much possible time/chances to make the difference, it’s not like either of them is grafting out of possession or even being a key part of any tactical plan.
I hope you know the difference between Messi and the likes of Haaland and Cristiano. It isn't just about goals for him, he is a playmaker who creates for others, for himself and also scores goals.
That's 6 tournaments out of 22. Relevant, yeah, but not that relevant


I remember them well enough. And I reiterate, he wasn't as impactful as Vini overall


Messi terrorized Chelsea at SB, Dinho not so much. Great in the second leg though and awesome goal. Vini dismantled Bayern. Dinho had an assist and was generally good against Milan. Vini had 2 assists and was generally good against City. Dinho scored and entertained against Benfica. Vini scored on Leipzig but this one goes to Dinho I'll give you that. Dinho was bad in the final. Vini scored and was decidedly, not bad

I'll take Vini's run all in all

Dinho was a better player, obviously. But the BdO is won based on performance over the season, and Vini's is right in line with most BdO seasons pre-Messi/Cristiano is my point
No Real Madrid attacking player was good against City as was the case vs Dortmund for around 75 minutes.
 
Huh? That’s what I suggested doing. You seemed to be implying his WC wasn’t actually that great because most of his goals were penalties.

I never said anything about him not having a free role, i said he wasn’t playing as a centre forward, Argentina’s game plan wasn’t to try and create chances for Messi, hence him playing as deep as he was. Having a free role doesn’t mean you’re the guy who gets all the scoring chances. I think it’s you who has the issue comprehending his role during that tournament.
My point was he really did little at the top level outside of the WC and then, although it’s a bit of a secondary point, the WC isn’t exactly the highest quality comp, someone made the point to me how he scored loads of goals but given 4 of 7 were penalties I personally don’t think that was a great point.

Not sure re last sentence seems a bit unnecessarily rude. Don’t think it’s a hard concept to grasp in anyway.
 
No Real Madrid attacking player was good against City as was the case vs Dortmund for around 75 minutes.
No Madrid attacking player was good in a game that finished 3-3? Wow, the midfielders must have been unreal then...

And games last 90 minutes, not 75. Geez. How do you not know that?
 
Messi should go back to PSG now that Mbappe is gone.
 
Couldn't care less, tbf. As long as there's a debate that expands beyond 2 players, I'll enjoy the ride. So tired of Messi or Ronaldo winning it.
 
I think that Bellingham, Vini, Wirtz and Mbappe are the four players that could win it. Wirtz an outside shot if he plays well in the Euros and Germany win, Bellingham if England win the Euros. Vini I think would win if the other three don't win the Euros. Mbappe has a shout if he does his usual of dominating the International scene.
 
When was the last time the Euros decided the ballon dor?

Ronaldo won it in 2016 but more due to the ucl win with Real Madrid and generally typically great stats over the season. He was actually quite average at the Euros. No way he wins it without the ucl.

The last time a player won the ballond'or based solely on the European championships was Sammer in 1996 and that was by 1 point over R9. So, it being Eurocentric isn't necessarily true especially after inclusion of non Europeans in the run for the award. There is the hype bit, but still someone will have to have a really great tournament ( to win it over Vinicius. As things stand, there is a stand out candidate and it is Vinicius.

2008-2023 was the Ronaldo-Messi era when it was almost impossible to win it if you weren't one of these two, so Euros did not matter that much. But this was an anomaly.

The tradition of Euro being highly relevant goes back to 1972.

1972 - Beckenbauer wins the Ballon d'Or, West Germany won the Euro.
1976 - Beckenbauer wins again after another great run by West Germany which saw them just lose the final to Czechoslovakia. Czech player Ivo Viktor came third due to Euro.
1980 - Karl-Heinz Rummenigge wins the Ballon d'Or, West Germany wins the Euro.
1984 - Platini after France wins the Euro.
1988 - Marco van Basten after the Dutch win the Euro.
1992 - That year was an exception because Denmark won it, and they didn't have suitable Ballon d'Or candidates.
1996 - Sammer won like you said.
2000 - Figo won after the hype due to the Real Madrid-Barca transfer saga, but only by just beating Zidane who won the Euro despite the latter not having a great season at Juve. Both of these players had an exceptional Euro campaign as Portugal reached the semis, so hard to say Euro didn't matter. No player from the CL winning Real even made top 8, Raul was on 9th place.
2004 - That was another weird year because Greece won it and had no stand out players, and no big names at all. Porto won the CL without any established star players either. Shevchenko won it after Milan won the Serie A.
2008 - Ronaldo-Messi era starts.

So as you can see, before the Ronaldo-Messi era, the Euro was actually highly relevant.

From 1972 to 2004, 5 out of 9 times the Euro winner won the Ballon d'Or, and in 2 other years the Euro was also clearly highly relevant and a winner of the Euro almost won it too. The two exceptions are Denmark and Greece wins, as those two teams were outsiders, and it was hard to make a case for any of their players.
 
My point was he really did little at the top level outside of the WC and then, although it’s a bit of a secondary point, the WC isn’t exactly the highest quality comp, someone made the point to me how he scored loads of goals but given 4 of 7 were penalties I personally don’t think that was a great point.

Not sure re last sentence seems a bit unnecessarily rude. Don’t think it’s a hard concept to grasp in anyway.
Annoyingly, I'm gonna have to use baseless stats which I hate doing, but Messi in his last BDO season achieved the following for club and country:

53 games
37 goals
25 assists
26 Man of the Match Awards
Ligue Un champion
French Super Cup winner
Ligue Un team of the season
World Cup winner
World Cup golden ball winner (only player in history to win it twice)
Most Man of the Match awards in World Cup history (5, including the final, the biggest game in world football)
World Cup silver boot (7 goals)
Laureus sportsperson of the year award
FIFA The Best award
IFHSS Playmaker of the year award (broke the record, has now won it more times that the likes of Xavi etc.)

If you don't think that is a Ballon D'Or worthy season then I don't know what to tell ya.

I also disagree about the World Cup not being the highest quality competition. It is the true test, still. The biggest stage, the biggest prize, the most pressure. Miss your chance, and it's four years till you get another one. The Champions League is simply not comparable in that sense. Miss your chance and it's 'oh well, let's try again next year. Or the year after that. Or the year after that. Not to mention that the CL final is watched by about a billion and a half less people than the World Cup final.
 
Annoyingly, I'm gonna have to use baseless stats which I hate doing, but Messi in his last BDO season achieved the following for club and country:

53 games
37 goals
25 assists
26 Man of the Match Awards
Ligue Un champion
French Super Cup winner
Ligue Un team of the season
World Cup winner
World Cup golden ball winner (only player in history to win it twice)
Most Man of the Match awards in World Cup history (5, including the final, the biggest game in world football)
World Cup silver boot (7 goals)
Laureus sportsperson of the year award
FIFA The Best award
IFHSS Playmaker of the year award (broke the record, has now won it more times that the likes of Xavi etc.)

If you don't think that is a Ballon D'Or worthy season then I don't know what to tell ya.

I also disagree about the World Cup not being the highest quality competition. It is the true test, still. The biggest stage, the biggest prize, the most pressure. Miss your chance, and it's four years till you get another one. The Champions League is simply not comparable in that sense. Miss your chance and it's 'oh well, let's try again next year. Or the year after that. Or the year after that. Not to mention that the CL final is watched by about a billion and a half less people than the World Cup final.

The Fifa best award really shouldn't count since it came after the Ballon d'Or award. Im one of those who don't think its wild that Messi won the Ballon d'Or but considering timeframe of the Fifa best it was undeserved.
 
The Fifa best award really shouldn't count since it came after the Ballon d'Or award. Im one of those who don't think its wild that Messi won the Ballon d'Or but considering timeframe of the Fifa best it was undeserved.
I'm not talking about stutt that happened exactly before the BDO was awarded, rather just listing all the things that took place that season. But point taken.
 
No Madrid attacking player was good in a game that finished 3-3? Wow, the midfielders must have been unreal then...

And games last 90 minutes, not 75. Geez. How do you not know that?
You fluked it past City as you lot have done a gazillion times in the last decade. Im happy you knocked the cheaters out though.
Annoyingly, I'm gonna have to use baseless stats which I hate doing, but Messi in his last BDO season achieved the following for club and country:

53 games
37 goals
25 assists
26 Man of the Match Awards
Ligue Un champion
French Super Cup winner
Ligue Un team of the season
World Cup winner
World Cup golden ball winner (only player in history to win it twice)
Most Man of the Match awards in World Cup history (5, including the final, the biggest game in world football)
World Cup silver boot (7 goals)
Laureus sportsperson of the year award
FIFA The Best award
IFHSS Playmaker of the year award (broke the record, has now won it more times that the likes of Xavi etc.)

If you don't think that is a Ballon D'Or worthy season then I don't know what to tell ya.

I also disagree about the World Cup not being the highest quality competition. It is the true test, still. The biggest stage, the biggest prize, the most pressure. Miss your chance, and it's four years till you get another one. The Champions League is simply not comparable in that sense. Miss your chance and it's 'oh well, let's try again next year. Or the year after that. Or the year after that. Not to mention that the CL final is watched by about a billion and a half less people than the World Cup final.
For anyone to know how good the pint sized genius is, they just need to watch him play. Stats don't do justice to him unlike others whose entire game is defined by stats alone.
My point was he really did little at the top level outside of the WC and then, although it’s a bit of a secondary point, the WC isn’t exactly the highest quality comp, someone made the point to me how he scored loads of goals but given 4 of 7 were penalties I personally don’t think that was a great point.

Not sure re last sentence seems a bit unnecessarily rude. Don’t think it’s a hard concept to grasp in anyway.
Don't reduce the performances to goals for Messi. It simply doesn't work that way for him. Messi is an artist and his contribution to his team's success goes way beyond scoring goals. Messi had a great tournament, was deservedly player of the tournament and given the weight of the world cup, a deserved ballon d'or winner. And he actually had a great season until the world cup atleast.

You'll argue than someone from Spain should have won in 2010 but 1. They had no standout player 2. Honestly, at that point in time, Messi's performances for Barcelona were in a class of their own, in my lifetime I've not seen such levels and don't expect to see them any time soon. I'm not exaggerating.