Ballon d’Or 2024 — post-Messi era

I love our reaction, we need to lean into this :cool:

Btw, I would honestly say over the last 2 seasons Rodri's level has been right up there with Pirlo, Xavi, Iniesta, Modric. Not quite as good as those 4 maybe, but close enough
 
The issue is you think only Busquets' cute little turns and dragbacks are technique.


Rodri has a superior passing range, defensive awareness, shooting ability, aerial threat, final pass and physicality.


Busquets is more press resistant and that's it. Busquets is one of the main reasons for Barca's humiliations in Europe post 2015. He was very easy to dribble past and Barca's midfield got dominated in almost every big European tie.


Busquets is the definition of a system player while Rodri is a complete player.
Never seen so much nonsense in my life. Busquets was the DM fulcrum of two of the most successful teams of all time, so that 'fell off after 2015' stuff is completely ridiculous. Who stays on top forever?

Re your breakdown of their qualities, the dismissal of what Busquets does just betrays a lack of understanding of the nuances of the game.
 
Never seen so much nonsense in my life. Busquets was the DM fulcrum of two of the most successful teams of all time, so that 'fell off after 2015' stuff is completely ridiculous. Who stays on top forever?

Re your breakdown of their qualities, the dismissal of what Busquets does just betrays a lack of understanding of the nuances of the game.

He's right to be honest although Busquets is a key reason to why the system worked in the first place.
 
Never seen so much nonsense in my life. Busquets was the DM fulcrum of two of the most successful teams of all time, so that 'fell off after 2015' stuff is completely ridiculous. Who stays on top forever?

Re your breakdown of their qualities, the dismissal of what Busquets does just betrays a lack of understanding of the nuances of the game.
Top example of irony at work, only you are doing it to Rodri.
 
Re your breakdown of their qualities, the dismissal of what Busquets does just betrays a lack of understanding of the nuances of the game.
Why don't you elaborate on their qualities and tell me where I'm wrong? You didn't debunk any of my points.
 
Top example of irony at work, only you are doing it to Rodri.
False, because I've never tried to belittle what Rodri does in the way that he did. I've always acknowledged that Rodri is a top player, even in stating that I think that prime Busquets was a level above.
 
Why don't you elaborate on their qualities and tell me where I'm wrong? You didn't debunk any of my points.
Prime Busquets was an adept reader of the game and had a strong football IQ and awareness of what was around him (space and players). This helped him to give quick answers to questions posed by opponents when his team was in and out of possession.

This is what that position is really about, controlling the game as much as possible from that deep-lying position, not so much the physical aspects.

As stated before, he also had sublime technique; his control of the ball under pressure, his passing, etc.

Rodri clearly has some of these qualities too. His physicality is superior, and he is more of a goal threat, but he doesn't have quite the same technique, passing ability or IQ, IMO.
 
Prime Busquets was an adept reader of the game and had a strong football IQ and awareness of what was around him (space and players). This helped him to give quick answers to questions posed by opponents when his team was in and out of possession.

This is what that position is really about, controlling the game as much as possible from that deep-lying position, not so much the physical aspects.

As stated before, he also had sublime technique; his control of the ball under pressure, his passing, etc.

Rodri clearly has some of these qualities too. His physicality is superior, and he is more of a goal threat, but he doesn't have quite the same technique, passing ability or IQ, IMO.

Goalscoring requires IQ, no?
 
Prime Busquets was an adept reader of the game and had a strong football IQ and awareness of what was around him (space and players). This helped him to give quick answers to questions posed by opponents when his team was in and out of possession.

This is what that position is really about, controlling the game as much as possible from that deep-lying position, not so much the physical aspects.

As stated before, he also had sublime technique; his control of the ball under pressure, his passing, etc.

Rodri clearly has some of these qualities too. His physicality is superior, and he is more of a goal threat, but he doesn't have quite the same technique, passing ability or IQ, IMO.
No one is denying Busquets' Football IQ and awareness though. Rodri has that too.


About passing, Rodri has more range because of better long balls. Maybe Busquets is the better short distance passer.


Busquets is the better dribbler and ball manipulator. He's completely press resistant.


A big part of this position involves breaking play up and Rodri is better at that.
 
No one is denying Busquets' Football IQ and awareness though. Rodri has that too.


About passing, Rodri has more range because of better long balls. Maybe Busquets is the better short distance passer.


Busquets is the better dribbler and ball manipulator. He's completely press resistant.


A big part of this position involves breaking play up and Rodri is better at that.
Rodri is stronger in the tackle, but Busquets' ability to read the game helps him a lot with the defensive side. Here's Rodri's own words on why he thinks Busquets is the best ever in that position:

“Sergio is incredible in tight spaces, nobody has had a first touch like him, he’s the best. Because of his quality on the ball, how he moves his body, and the speed of his brain to make the right decision, up against the pressure of two or three opponents.”

https://www.football-espana.net/2024/03/09/rodri-ballon-dor-ambition-sergi-busquets-comparisons

Of course, Rodri stating that Busquets is the best doesn't necessarily mean that he is the best; that's still matter of opinion. But I quote this because I think it's a great summary of why Busquets was great at his best. It's a little bit more than 'cute little turns and dragbacks.'
 
Rodri is stronger in the tackle, but Busquets' ability to read the game helps him a lot with the defensive side. Here's Rodri's own words on why he thinks Busquets is the best ever in that position:

“Sergio is incredible in tight spaces, nobody has had a first touch like him, he’s the best. Because of his quality on the ball, how he moves his body, and the speed of his brain to make the right decision, up against the pressure of two or three opponents.”

https://www.football-espana.net/2024/03/09/rodri-ballon-dor-ambition-sergi-busquets-comparisons

Of course, Rodri stating that Busquets is the best doesn't necessarily mean that he is the best; that's still matter of opinion. But I quote this because I think it's a great summary of why Busquets was great at his best. It's a little bit more than 'cute little turns and dragbacks.'
You're taking an aspect in which every one agrees Busquets was slightly better (possession control) and using it that to determine that he was generally better, while downplaying all the other aspects in which Rodri's better.

Generally speaking, Rodri has more to his game than Busquets.
 
Never seen so much nonsense in my life. Busquets was the DM fulcrum of two of the most successful teams of all time, so that 'fell off after 2015' stuff is completely ridiculous. Who stays on top forever?

Re your breakdown of their qualities, the dismissal of what Busquets does just betrays a lack of understanding of the nuances of the game.
Of those two teams Xavi and Iniesta were the stars in midfield. Busquets was a good player but if Xabi Alonso had played for Barcelona instead, Barca would have won the exact same number of games/trophies when Xavi/Iniesta were there too. There are plenty of players who could do what Busquets did with the talent ahead of him. Busquets completed a functional role in the team to a high level, helping Xavi and Iniesta to flourish but when they retired/declined, he couldn't pick up the mantle to the same elite level and stand out without them. Personality wise he lacked leadership to impose his game on the opposition, something Rodri has had no issue with, which is one of the main reasons Rodri is a level above Busquets, aside from being a better all-round player.
 
Of those two teams Xavi and Iniesta were the stars in midfield. Busquets was a good player but if Xabi Alonso had played for Barcelona instead, Barca would have won the exact same number of games/trophies when Xavi/Iniesta were there too. There are plenty of players who could do what Busquets did with the talent ahead of him. Busquets completed a functional role in the team to a high level, helping Xavi and Iniesta to flourish but when they retired/declined, he couldn't pick up the mantle to the same elite level and stand out without them. Personality wise he lacked leadership to impose his game on the opposition, something Rodri has had no issue with, which is one of the main reasons Rodri is a level above Busquets, aside from being a better all-round player.
You have literally no idea what Rodri could do without his teammates, for City or Spain. The Alonso bit is also pure speculation, and I disagree entirely that he could do the same thing that Busquets did or that Barcelona would have had exactly the same success with him. But I guess I'm gonna have to get used to people who probably watched Busquets hundreds of times less than I did tell me why he's a limited 'system player'
 
People thinking that any player would have done what Busquets have done in his teams, does not get what Busquets did AT ALL.
He was the real metronome of Barca and even in the NT, in many ways he was more Barca than Xavi and Iniesta combine.

All said, thinking that Rodri it's a level below? it's silly too, a similar, yet diff player at the same time. More physical, with more stamina, more box to box, more well rounded and more suitable for even a team that does not play like Barca, the NT or City. A phenomenal player that maybe due to his role and still relatively short spam at the very very top, his Ballon D'Or might have come a bit too fast (mostly due to a season with many candidates, but not a super stellar one), yet the type of player that if he continues this trend will sit among the best ever mids.
 
I love our reaction, we need to lean into this :cool:

Btw, I would honestly say over the last 2 seasons Rodri's level has been right up there with Pirlo, Xavi, Iniesta, Modric. Not quite as good as those 4 maybe, but close enough
You guys should buy him!
 
You're taking an aspect in which every one agrees Busquets was slightly better (possession control) and using it that to determine that he was generally better, while downplaying all the other aspects in which Rodri's better.

Generally speaking, Rodri has more to his game than Busquets.
It's not one factor. I said he's got better touch, control, IQ and passing ability.

And generally speaking, Steven Gerrard has 'more to his game' than Xavi and Pirlo, but that doesn't mean he is a better player.

Same principle.
 
Busquets was a very good and well-liked player. Great one- and two touch player and very important to the team because he complemented the other stars in a good way.

Compared with Rodri, Busquets was probably more dependent on good players around him to dominate. I think Rodri with his power and presence could dominate the midfield for less good teams and actually be the player who could help lift United significantly.

Although I admire Busquets (rate him and Rodri equally), I get a bit annoyed with Busquets-fans who often use dominating techniques and say that it takes a well-trained eye to see how good he is. Almost like it becomes a bit cool to say how great he was because many others do not understand (read: are not on the same football intellectual level as me and other “experts”). As a result of that Busquets is a bit overhyped in my opinion.
 
No idea why anyone gives a flying feck about these player awards. They're nothing more than political popularity contests.
 
Busquets was a very good and well-liked player. Great one- and two touch player and very important to the team because he complemented the other stars in a good way.

Compared with Rodri, Busquets was probably more dependent on good players around him to dominate. I think Rodri with his power and presence could dominate the midfield for less good teams and actually be the player who could help lift United significantly.

Although I admire Busquets (rate him and Rodri equally), I get a bit annoyed with Busquets-fans who often use dominating techniques and say that it takes a well-trained eye to see how good he is. Almost like it becomes a bit cool to say how great he was because many others do not understand (read: are not on the same football intellectual level as me and other “experts”). As a result of that Busquets is a bit overhyped in my opinion.
Well liked? I wouldn't go there.

This is a player who is known for his diving and acting, and his words in his defense him being labelled a diver: "It's not play acting, it's being smart".

Extremely talented player, but he was never particularly well liked by anyone other than Barca fans.
 
Busquets was a very good and well-liked player. Great one- and two touch player and very important to the team because he complemented the other stars in a good way.

Compared with Rodri, Busquets was probably more dependent on good players around him to dominate. I think Rodri with his power and presence could dominate the midfield for less good teams and actually be the player who could help lift United significantly.

Although I admire Busquets (rate him and Rodri equally), I get a bit annoyed with Busquets-fans who often use dominating techniques and say that it takes a well-trained eye to see how good he is. Almost like it becomes a bit cool to say how great he was because many others do not understand (read: are not on the same football intellectual level as me and other “experts”). As a result of that Busquets is a bit overhyped in my opinion.
There is no evidence that this is true. You have no idea what Rodri would be able to do without his stellar teammates at City and with Spain. There is no evidence of him having great success outside of top teams. You're speculating.

But let's say for argument's sake that what you're saying is correct.

The question I would put to you is the same as I put to the other poster. To paraphrase your words, Steven Gerrard, with his power and presence could 'dominate' the midfield for less good teams than a Xavi, an Iniesta or a Pirlo.

Take the Champions League final in 2005. Could Xavi or Iniesta or Pirlo do what Gerrard did in that game, 'single-handedly' (as the myth goes) dragging Liverpool back from the brink? Could any of them score a goal like Gerrard scored in the 2006 FA Cup final?

If the answer is 'no', then why is Steven Gerrard not widely considered to be better than those players? He's a better tackler than all of them, has a better engine, scores more goals and creates a lot too. He was also very good technically, and a great long range passer.

So what's the answer?
 
There is no evidence that this is true. You have no idea what Rodri would be able to do without his stellar teammates at City and with Spain. There is no evidence of him having great success outside of top teams. You're speculating.

But let's say for argument's sake that what you're saying is correct.

The question I would put to you is the same as I put to the other poster. To paraphrase your words, Steven Gerrard, with his power and presence could 'dominate' the midfield for less good teams than a Xavi, an Iniesta or a Pirlo.

Take the Champions League final in 2005. Could Xavi or Iniesta or Pirlo do what Gerrard did in that game, 'single-handedly' (as the myth goes) dragging Liverpool back from the brink? Could any of them score a goal like Gerrard scored in the 2006 FA Cup final?

If the answer is 'no', then why is Steven Gerrard not widely considered to be better than those players? He's a better tackler than all of them, has a better engine, scores more goals and creates a lot too. He was also very good technically, and a great long range passer.

So what's the answer?
Game intelligence and decision making, both being some of the most important aspects of the game. Rodri and Busquets share these traits, Busquets being more press resistant and coming out the winner in tight situations, and Rodri contributing more offensively with goals, assists and chance creation. I think it comes down to preference here, but they are both around the same level for me.
 
There is no evidence that this is true. You have no idea what Rodri would be able to do without his stellar teammates at City and with Spain. There is no evidence of him having great success outside of top teams. You're speculating.

But let's say for argument's sake that what you're saying is correct.

The question I would put to you is the same as I put to the other poster. To paraphrase your words, Steven Gerrard, with his power and presence could 'dominate' the midfield for less good teams than a Xavi, an Iniesta or a Pirlo.

Take the Champions League final in 2005. Could Xavi or Iniesta or Pirlo do what Gerrard did in that game, 'single-handedly' (as the myth goes) dragging Liverpool back from the brink? Could any of them score a goal like Gerrard scored in the 2006 FA Cup final?

If the answer is 'no', then why is Steven Gerrard not widely considered to be better than those players? He's a better tackler than all of them, has a better engine, scores more goals and creates a lot too. He was also very good technically, and a great long range passer.

So what's the answer?
You are right. It’s not true. We don’t know. It’s my assessment.

Of the players you mentioned, my firs pick as a manager would be Gerrard.

Most fun to watch and most extreme skills: Iniesta.

My rating:
1. Gerrard/Iniesta
2. Xavi
3. Pirlo

2005 was the year Gerrard could’ve won, because the winner obviously has to play on a winning team that year (League, CL or WC). Ronaldinho obviously also deserved to win Ballon d’Or during his career, so I think it wasn’t wrong he won it in 2005 either.
 
You are right. It’s not true. We don’t know. It’s my assessment.

Of the players you mentioned, my firs pick as a manager would be Gerrard.

Most fun to watch and most extreme skills: Iniesta.

My rating:
1. Gerrard/Iniesta
2. Xavi
3. Pirlo

2005 was the year Gerrard could’ve won, because the winner obviously has to play on a winning team that year (League, CL or WC). Ronaldinho obviously also deserved to win Ballon d’Or during his career, so I think it wasn’t wrong he won it in 2005 either.
Fair assessment. For me, technical ability (in terms of touch, control, skill, passing, string pulling) is what counts above all else. I believe that is what makes the difference at the highest level. I favour Busquets above Rodri and Xavi/Iniesta/Pirlo above Gerrard for that reason, but that doesn't mean that I don't think Rodri is a technically excellent player (ditto Gerrard). I just think that there are levels of technical excellence.
 
There is no evidence that this is true. You have no idea what Rodri would be able to do without his stellar teammates at City and with Spain. There is no evidence of him having great success outside of top teams. You're speculating.

But let's say for argument's sake that what you're saying is correct.

The question I would put to you is the same as I put to the other poster. To paraphrase your words, Steven Gerrard, with his power and presence could 'dominate' the midfield for less good teams than a Xavi, an Iniesta or a Pirlo.

Take the Champions League final in 2005. Could Xavi or Iniesta or Pirlo do what Gerrard did in that game, 'single-handedly' (as the myth goes) dragging Liverpool back from the brink? Could any of them score a goal like Gerrard scored in the 2006 FA Cup final?

If the answer is 'no', then why is Steven Gerrard not widely considered to be better than those players? He's a better tackler than all of them, has a better engine, scores more goals and creates a lot too. He was also very good technically, and a great long range passer.

So what's the answer?
Because not all skills are equal in how valuable they are to a top team.

Also only looking at when a player does things well doesn't give an accurate picture when consistency at the top is very important.
 
Right, so not iq then.

Iq in relation to football is acquired the same way, the instinct or learned behaviour for a DM to know what position is best to make an angle to receive pass is the same instinct or learned behaviour that allows an AM to know whats the best position to get a shot of. No one is born knowing these things, its all to do with practice and coaching, some of course grasp things quicker and easier than others.

But an AM who gets 20 goals from a deeper position is one with an high IQ also.
 
Iq in relation to football is acquired the same way, the instinct or learned behaviour for a DM to know what position is best to make an angle to receive pass is the same instinct or learned behaviour that allows an AM to know whats the best position to get a shot of. No one is born knowing these things, its all to do with practice and coaching, some of course grasp things quicker and easier than others.

But an AM who gets 20 goals from a deeper position is one with an high IQ also.
Well I agree with everything you have said, you are only describing a small part of what is done. There is so much more to dictating play which requires intelligence compared to scoring goals.

Who is the AM?
 
Well I agree with everything you have said, you are only describing a small part of what is done. There is so much more to dictating play which requires intelligence compared to scoring goals.

Who is the AM?

Lampard was who instantly came into my head, especially when naturally he wasn't as talented as some of the peers he came up with.