Ballon d’Or 2024 — post-Messi era

I genuinely thought people were being sarcastic about Messi winning it, in what world would this ever happen? He's only part of one tier 1 comp this year, and it's one he's either favourite or second favourite to win...

I personally hope it's Vicinius whatever happens in international football, none of the others are anywhere near as entertaining and international football is a poor way to judge things anyway, the standard there is so much lower for me even in the top teams.
 
tomaldinho1 said:
I genuinely thought people were being sarcastic about Messi winning it, in what world would this ever happen? He's only part of one tier 1 comp this year, and it's one he's either favourite or second favourite to win...

I personally hope it's Vicinius whatever happens in international football, none of the others are anywhere near as entertaining and international football is a poor way to judge things anyway, the standard there is so much lower for me even in the top teams.
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It's over. I think everyone including Messi is fine with that.
 
tomaldinho1 said:
I genuinely thought people were being sarcastic about Messi winning it, in what world would this ever happen? He's only part of one tier 1 comp this year, and it's one he's either favourite or second favourite to win...

I personally hope it's Vicinius whatever happens in international football, none of the others are anywhere near as entertaining and international football is a poor way to judge things anyway, the standard there is so much lower for me even in the top teams.
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I think suggesting Messi didn't deserve the last Ballon d'Or is more absurd than suggesting he'd deserve the next if he wins the Copa with Argentina to be honest. And I think the idea that he should win another one playing in the MLS is very absurd.
 
If Portugal wins the Euros I don't think it's out of question that Cristiano Ronaldo wins it, provided he plays some part in the team.

He's had a prolific season in Saudi Arabia, banged a lot of goals in Euro qualifying as well and Portugal has a great squad right now, they have a solid chance to win.

Now before you jump at me, I'm not saying that he should win it. But I think it's a possibility, especially with the Saudis and their money around. Having a Ballon d'Or winner in their country, winning it while playing in their league, would be huge for them. What does it take for them to "convince" the right people anyway? It would be nothing compared to their campaign to get the world cup there.

It would also be presented as "fair" to the football public in the sense that Messi won it because he won the WC with Argentina and it's "only fair" that Ronaldo wins one for a (hypothetical) Portugal win. The precedent has already been set.

Imagine a scenario where Portugal wins the finals on penalties and Ronaldo bangs the decisive one in. I think in this case, he is guaranteed lock for Ballon d'Or. The story would be too good for them to not capitalize on it.
 
Morty_ said:
If Portugal wins the Euros I don't think it's out of question that Cristiano Ronaldo wins it, provided he plays some part in the team.

He's had a prolific season in Saudi Arabia, banged a lot of goals in Euro qualifying as well and Portugal has a great squad right now, they have a solid chance to win.

Now before you jump at me, I'm not saying that he should win it. But I think it's a possibility, especially with the Saudis and their money around. Having a Ballon d'Or winner in their country, winning it while playing in their league, would be huge for them. What does it take for them to "convince" the right people anyway? It would be nothing compared to their campaign to get the world cup there.

It would also be presented as "fair" to the football public in the sense that Messi won it because he won the WC with Argentina and it's "only fair" that Ronaldo wins one for a (hypothetical) Portugal win. The precedent has already been set.

Imagine a scenario where Portugal wins the finals on penalties and Ronaldo bangs the decisive one in. I think in this case, he is guaranteed lock for Ballon d'Or. The story would be too good for them to not capitalize on it.
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Sounded absurd in the beginning but I could totally see what you're saying by the end. That story would be irresistible especially if backed up by the Saudi's might. It would also just be so CR to pull off one final shot :lol:
 
Gehrman said:
It's over. I think everyone including Messi is fine with that.
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Agreed.
Zehner said:
I think suggesting Messi didn't deserve the last Ballon d'Or is more absurd than suggesting he'd deserve the next if he wins the Copa with Argentina to be honest. And I think the idea that he should win another one playing in the MLS is very absurd.
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I didn’t say that, although I do think it! As much as I dislike City, to pick Messi over Haaland, who has smashed a league goal record on the way to a treble* is genuinely mental. Messi should have won multiple Copas, the fact he/Argentina routinely underachieved somehow made it better when it should be looked at as a relative failure when you compare the teams who have won it and the fact there have been extra tournaments compared to the Euros.
 
tomaldinho1 said:
Agreed.

I didn’t say that, although I do think it! As much as I dislike City, to pick Messi over Haaland, who has smashed a league goal record on the way to a treble* is genuinely mental. Messi should have won multiple Copas, the fact he/Argentina routinely underachieved somehow made it better when it should be looked at as a relative failure when you compare the teams who have won it and the fact there have been extra tournaments compared to the Euros.
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That could have something to do with the fact that Haaland never once gave the impression that he was the difference in City's achievements? There wasn't a single game that year that you went out thinking "if it wasn't for Haaland, ...." Compare that to Messi and him being the clear obvious difference between Argentina doing what they did. There have been many players who had a great season being part of a successful team, none of them have Haaland's numbers but again, I can't remember a team dominating and creating as many chances as City so it's hard to gauge just exceptional Haaland's goalscoring record. On the other hand, only Pele, Maradona and R9 had a similar or bigger impact on their national teams doing what they did. That's uniqueness and if you have a unique accomplishment, of course it should trump an impressive statistical achievement.
 
Without the Euros/Copa, Vini is the clear favourite.

England will not win the Euros so we can stop the discussion with Jude.

I don't see a situation where Vini doesn't win the Ballon d'Or, especially since Brazil have a very good chance of reaching the latter stages of the tournament, even if they don't win it.

The only other possibility is the player of the tournament (Euros), but only if he has won the domestic league too.
 
Theonas said:
That could have something to do with the fact that Haaland never once gave the impression that he was the difference in City's achievements? There wasn't a single game that year that you went out thinking "if it wasn't for Haaland, ...." Compare that to Messi and him being the clear obvious difference between Argentina doing what they did. There have been many players who had a great season being part of a successful team, none of them have Haaland's numbers but again, I can't remember a team dominating and creating as many chances as City so it's hard to gauge just exceptional Haaland's goalscoring record. On the other hand, only Pele, Maradona and R9 had a similar or bigger impact on their national teams doing what they did. That's uniqueness and if you have a unique accomplishment, of course it should trump an impressive statistical achievement.
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As in unique because they’ve underachieved so long? Well Haaland arrived and they immediately won a treble after years of underachieving in the CL so not sure what more proof you need. Even forget Haaland, KDB then, it’s mental a treble was overlooked for a Copa win.
 
tomaldinho1 said:
As in unique because they’ve underachieved so long? Well Haaland arrived and they immediately won a treble after years of underachieving in the CL so not sure what more proof you need. Even forget Haaland, KDB then, it’s mental a treble was overlooked for a Copa win.
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A Copa win? I thought we were talking about the world cup. Didn't Messi beat Haaland to the Balon d'Or because he carried Argentina to the WC?

As for the bolded, surely you can't be serious? Are you saying the difference between Real vs City semi finals in 2022 and 2023 was Haaland? The old correlation does not imply causation could not be more relevant. The evidence I need is what Benzema did for Real in 2022, Cristiano for Real numerous times, Messi for Barcelona or even Robben for Bayern. You watch the games and you detect a clutch player who makes the difference when his team is struggling or when the game is on the edge. The game ends and the consensus is "X made the difference". Haaland has never done that, that's how what separates world class players from the generational greats.
 
Theonas said:
Sounded absurd in the beginning but I could totally see what you're saying by the end. That story would be irresistible especially if backed up by the Saudi's might. It would also just be so CR to pull off one final shot :lol:
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I genuinely have no idea whats going on right now.
 
If Bellingham wins the Euros with England it should be him.

If Vinicius wins The Copa America it might be him but then again the Copa America only counts when Messi wins it.

If Argentina wins the Copa America they might find a way to give it to Messi again even if they dont win maybe they will count the World Cup from two years ago and still give him anyway.

The all thing is a joke.
 
Theonas said:
A Copa win? I thought we were talking about the world cup. Didn't Messi beat Haaland to the Balon d'Or because he carried Argentina to the WC?

As for the bolded, surely you can't be serious? Are you saying the difference between Real vs City semi finals in 2022 and 2023 was Haaland? The old correlation does not imply causation could not be more relevant. The evidence I need is what Benzema did for Real in 2022, Cristiano for Real numerous times, Messi for Barcelona or even Robben for Bayern. You watch the games and you detect a clutch player who makes the difference when his team is struggling or when the game is on the edge. The game ends and the consensus is "X made the difference". Haaland has never done that, that's how what separates world class players from the generational greats.
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Sorry mixing up my years. Yes WC not Copa. It’s not enough in isolation to trump a treble when there’s nothing else at the elite level with it (and let’s be honest the ref saved them vs Netherlands).

No im saying football is a team game and for years people were asking why Pep just didn’t get a pure 9 as they continuously missed out on the prize they wanted more than anything. Then they got one, he blitzed the league goals record, they won a treble, he couldn’t have done any more apart from change nationality to a major nation? I also said KDB if you have a problem with Haaland specifically, if we’re saying WC trumps everything then it goes back to the farce if Messi winning over Xavi/Iniesta. I get it’s not a real award and it’s basically a popularity contest but it might as well have some loose guidelines for voting.
 
LA BOMBA said:
If Portugal wins the Euros I don't think it's out of question that Cristiano Ronaldo wins it
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That's a big if, but sure why the hell not it would be a great feat but highly unlikely.
 
SER19 said:
If Brazil win Copa America, Vinicius is a shout, and of course Bellingham if England win Euros. Both excellent players but probably not quite ballon dor level of previous winners yet

Tournaments can still sway these things as we saw with Messi and the world cup, so wouldn't be surprised to see Mbappe win it if he does well and france win euros for example. Even a wild card like Rodri should he be instrumental in a surprise Spain win.
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Big fecking if :lol:
 
tomaldinho1 said:
Sorry mixing up my years. Yes WC not Copa. It’s not enough in isolation to trump a treble when there’s nothing else at the elite level with it (and let’s be honest the ref saved them vs Netherlands).

No im saying football is a team game and for years people were asking why Pep just didn’t get a pure 9 as they continuously missed out on the prize they wanted more than anything. Then they got one, he blitzed the league goals record, they won a treble, he couldn’t have done any more apart from change nationality to a major nation? I also said KDB if you have a problem with Haaland specifically, if we’re saying WC trumps everything then it goes back to the farce if Messi winning over Xavi/Iniesta. I get it’s not a real award and it’s basically a popularity contest but it might as well have some loose guidelines for voting.
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I’d agree that Haaland didn’t really tip the scale in the most important games, however, like you say, it’s a team game, and Haaland tipped the scale in many «less important games», often winning game in the first half. It’s a squad game for the best of the best, and City often didn’t need to shift out of second gear in the league. Which means he helped his team a lot during a long season.
 
Why should Bellingham be the automatic England player to win the Ballon d'Or if England were to win the Euros ?
I mean, he has to perform first.
 
tomaldinho1 said:
Sorry mixing up my years. Yes WC not Copa. It’s not enough in isolation to trump a treble when there’s nothing else at the elite level with it (and let’s be honest the ref saved them vs Netherlands).

No im saying football is a team game and for years people were asking why Pep just didn’t get a pure 9 as they continuously missed out on the prize they wanted more than anything. Then they got one, he blitzed the league goals record, they won a treble, he couldn’t have done any more apart from change nationality to a major nation? I also said KDB if you have a problem with Haaland specifically, if we’re saying WC trumps everything then it goes back to the farce if Messi winning over Xavi/Iniesta. I get it’s not a real award and it’s basically a popularity contest but it might as well have some loose guidelines for voting.
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Haaland could definitely do more by showing up in 8 semis & finals, instead he chose to finish those 8 games having 0 g&a with terrible ratings. He was brought in to make difference in these games, yet he was invisible and had to be carried (he's a meme at this point due to his consistently bad big game performance). As for UCL, he was not even the best player at City, it was Rodri who was chosen as the best UCL player.

Also, with your logic, you should agree that Haaland was holding Dortmund back, because the moment they got rid of Haaland, they had their best Bundesliga season in years and played a UCL final a year after. This cannot be a coincidence (in your words), right? City is Pep's machine and doesn't need a single player including Haaland to dominate and win things, it was a matter of time before they win the UCL, they are almost always there in the semis or finals of the UCL. They dominate PL like no other with or without him. On the other hand, Haaland didn't even know what UCL semi-final or a top-5 league trophy looked like before City, and never was a contender for any top individual award.

Ballon D'or also is not an award for the most goals or whoever wins the treble, it's an award for the best player, and Messi is above and beyond Haaland in every single metric including playmaking in Europe, not to mention his iconic WC campaign as the MVP. There's no comparison with Messi and a 10-touch per game player. Also, Messi had more g&a than anyone if you are that much into numbers.

Ribery had a treble winning season in 2013 where he was chosen as the Best Bundesliga player, UEFA Best player in Europe, UEFA Super Cup MOTM, FIFA Club World Cup Golden Ball, much more impressive than whatever Haaland did as Ribery carried his team. Yet, it was Ronaldo who won it without even winning a single cup.

And no Xavi and Iniesta were not even the MVPs in the WC 2010, not even top-3. You don't match Messi, Pele, R9 or Maradona's WC campaigns the moment your team wins the WC. Iniesta had like 1 goal and Xavi like an assist in 7 games. Messi had one of the most iconic WC campaigns ever, there's no comparison.
 
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tomaldinho1 said:
Sorry mixing up my years. Yes WC not Copa. It’s not enough in isolation to trump a treble when there’s nothing else at the elite level with it (and let’s be honest the ref saved them vs Netherlands).

No im saying football is a team game and for years people were asking why Pep just didn’t get a pure 9 as they continuously missed out on the prize they wanted more than anything. Then they got one, he blitzed the league goals record, they won a treble, he couldn’t have done any more apart from change nationality to a major nation? I also said KDB if you have a problem with Haaland specifically, if we’re saying WC trumps everything then it goes back to the farce if Messi winning over Xavi/Iniesta. I get it’s not a real award and it’s basically a popularity contest but it might as well have some loose guidelines for voting.
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I don't think the WC trumps everything. I think being a talisman in a major competition goes a long, long way to trumping everything. R9 in 2002, Zidane in 2006 and Messi in 2022 are talisman performances where one guy stands heads and shoulders above the rest being the difference maker in a brilliant achievement. At club level, I'd say Ronaldinho for Barcelona in 2006, Benzema in 2022 for Real, I think Lewa and Suarez had a couple of years like that. On a local level Cristiano for us, RvP in 2013, Hazar for Chelsea. We remember those achievements, and the bigger the achievement, the more you merit to be acknowledged as having done something special. In years where no one stands out like that, I think it should go for the best domestic season in terms of stats and trophies. That is why Xavi and Iniesta for all their brilliance, I don't think they had a case as they were more parts of a well oiled machine and I think that for me Iniesta is a bonafide all time great, but in my opinion, no performance in 2010 WC matched the examples I have given. This brings us to City, their achievement for me is a bit like our treble. It was a group effort with 4 or 5 world class players and the rest being brilliant support cast, the main star being the coach. That's why I don't see Haaland or anyone from that City side deserving the Balon d'Or, same as our 1999 team as opposed to our 2008 team when Cristiano was clearly the driving force of that triumph.
 
Theonas said:
I don't think the WC trumps everything. I think being a talisman in a major competition goes a long, long way to trumping everything. R9 in 2002, Zidane in 2006 and Messi in 2022 are talisman performances where one guy stands heads and shoulders above the rest being the difference maker in a brilliant achievement. At club level, I'd say Ronaldinho for Barcelona in 2006, Benzema in 2022 for Real, I think Lewa and Suarez had a couple of years like that. On a local level Cristiano for us, RvP in 2013, Hazar for Chelsea. We remember those achievements, and the bigger the achievement, the more you merit to be acknowledged as having done something special. In years where no one stands out like that, I think it should go for the best domestic season in terms of stats and trophies. That is why Xavi and Iniesta for all their brilliance, I don't think they had a case as they were more parts of a well oiled machine and I think that for me Iniesta is a bonafide all time great, but in my opinion, no performance in 2010 WC matched the examples I have given. This brings us to City, their achievement for me is a bit like our treble. It was a group effort with 4 or 5 world class players and the rest being brilliant support cast, the main star being the coach. That's why I don't see Haaland or anyone from that City side deserving the Balon d'Or, same as our 1999 team as opposed to our 2008 team when Cristiano was clearly the driving force of that triumph.
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Seems very generous to say he had a WC close to those two, R9 in particular. He didn’t win the golden boot and over half his goals were penalties. Good WC, very emotional for Argentina but hard to argue it was some amazing performance that will go down in history.
 
tomaldinho1 said:
Seems very generous to say he had a WC close to those two, R9 in particular. He didn’t win the golden boot and over half his goals were penalties. Good WC, very emotional for Argentina but hard to argue it was some amazing performance that will go down in history.
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It will absolutely go down in history. His pass for the assist against the Netherlands was being called one of the best passes ever shortly after it happened. Then he had the mazy run and assist against Gvardiol, who many touted as the best defender in the tournament prior to this game. The goal out of nowhere against Mexico changed the momentum of the whole tournament when the team was looking hopeless and about to crash out.

As good as those other performances were, the most memorable things about them are a headbut and a haircut.
 
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brunoag4 said:
Haaland could definitely do more by showing up in 8 semis & finals, instead he chose to finish those 8 games having 0 g&a with terrible ratings. He was brought in to make difference in these games, yet he was invisible and had to be carried (he's a meme at this point due to his consistently bad big game performance). As for UCL, he was not even the best player at City, it was Rodri who was chosen as the best UCL player.

Also, with your logic, you should agree that Haaland was holding Dortmund back, because the moment they got rid of Haaland, they had their best Bundesliga season in years and played a UCL final a year after. This cannot be a coincidence (in your words), right? City is Pep's machine and doesn't need a single player including Haaland to dominate and win things, it was a matter of time before they win the UCL, they are almost always there in the semis or finals of the UCL. They dominate PL like no other with or without him. On the other hand, Haaland didn't even know what UCL semi-final or a top-5 league trophy looked like before City, and never was a contender for any top individual award.

Ballon D'or also is not an award for the most goals or whoever wins the treble, it's an award for the best player, and Messi is above and beyond Haaland in every single metric including playmaking in Europe, not to mention his iconic WC campaign as the MVP. There's no comparison with Messi and a 10-touch per game player. Also, Messi had more g&a than anyone if you are that much into numbers.

Ribery had a treble winning season in 2013 where he was chosen as the Best Bundesliga player, UEFA Best player in Europe, UEFA Super Cup MOTM, FIFA Club World Cup Golden Ball, much more impressive than whatever Haaland did as Ribery carried his team. Yet, it was Ronaldo who won it without even winning a single cup.

And no Xavi and Iniesta were not even the MVPs in the WC 2010, not even top-3. You don't match Messi, Pele, R9 or Maradona's WC campaigns the moment your team wins the WC. Iniesta had like 1 goal and Xavi like an assist in 7 games. Messi had one of the most iconic WC campaigns ever, there's no comparison.
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Too long to go through at this time but I made the point quite clearly if you have a specific issue with Haaland to just sub in KDB.

Your point on Ribéry proves the issue.

To say Xavi and Iniesta, particularly the former, were not MVPs because of (insert stat here) is like me saying Darren Bent is a better player than Cantona. Xavi ran every side he played in. I think Messi even apologised to them when he won given how stupid the voting system is.
 
tomaldinho1 said:
Sorry mixing up my years. Yes WC not Copa. It’s not enough in isolation to trump a treble when there’s nothing else at the elite level with it (and let’s be honest the ref saved them vs Netherlands).

No im saying football is a team game and for years people were asking why Pep just didn’t get a pure 9 as they continuously missed out on the prize they wanted more than anything. Then they got one, he blitzed the league goals record, they won a treble, he couldn’t have done any more apart from change nationality to a major nation? I also said KDB if you have a problem with Haaland specifically, if we’re saying WC trumps everything then it goes back to the farce if Messi winning over Xavi/Iniesta. I get it’s not a real award and it’s basically a popularity contest but it might as well have some loose guidelines for voting.
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WC does trump all IMO, but what you're forgetting is that it's not just Messi being part of a WC winning team, it's the fact that he scored in every round (with a lot of pens, to be fair), but also had more MOTM awards than any other player in WC history, including 2 goals and a MOTM award in the final. City would be dominant with or without Haaland, and he is not the reason that they won the CL as he didn't actually score any goals in the semi final or the final. It was very much a team effort with them, even though Haaland got a lot of the attention because he was so prolific
 
tomaldinho1 said:
Seems very generous to say he had a WC close to those two, R9 in particular. He didn’t win the golden boot and over half his goals were penalties. Good WC, very emotional for Argentina but hard to argue it was some amazing performance that will go down in history.
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I think @Taribo's Gap explained it better than I could. If you don't think Messi's performances in 2022 qualify as some of the best in that context, I am afraid it's just a matter of what we prioritize. I happen to think that that Argentina team is easily the worst individually out of WC winners since my first memories back in 1994. Their centre backs were a City reject and a guy who was part of a meme defence at Spurs. Their midfielders were young inexperience quantities playing for the likes of Benfica and Brighton. It was basically Messi and Di Maria who made things happen and that was evident in more or less every game. If you think that was not good enough, then you're right, a City player should have won it that year.
 
Valencia Shin Crosses said:
Same reason Messi won it off the back of a single World Cup tourney. The award has become very narrative driven these days.
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His point is that Bellingham has to actually lead his team and be the main player in that win, like Messi was. Just being part of the team that wins it shouldn't be enough unless there is no standout candidate.
 
Theonas said:
His point is that Bellingham has to actually lead his team and be the main player in that win, like Messi was. Just being part of the team that wins it shouldn't be enough unless there is no standout candidate.
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No I'm aware, and I agree. Just saying that the award is extremely narrative driven (seems even more than usual) in recent years. So Jude winning the WC even if he was just okay would still make him the favorite because people could point to that + UCL win with good stats and justify it.

Personally think Vini should be a lock for the award. Clear best player on the best team and had crucial contributions constantly in big moments, while winning the UCL and his domestic league.
 
The narrative is already set up nicely for Kroos due to Germany being crap for a few years and then he comes back and leads them to a glorious win on home turf.
 
Valencia Shin Crosses said:
No I'm aware, and I agree. Just saying that the award is extremely narrative driven (seems even more than usual) in recent years. So Jude winning the WC even if he was just okay would still make him the favorite because people could point to that + UCL win with good stats and justify it.

Personally think Vini should be a lock for the award. Clear best player on the best team and had crucial contributions constantly in big moments, while winning the UCL and his domestic league.
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Vini would be my best player of the year also. But I disagree that it's clear. I don't think it's Benzema 2022 level clear for it to be an injustice if he doesn't win. I think he had an average first half of the campaign and his numbers aren't that exceptional. As I said, I still think he is the best but to be clearly the best, you need to do a bit more. When that is the case, it does open the door for a better story, I agree with that, but I am not sure that's necessarily new. It always felt that unless you were Rivaldo, Zidane, R9 or that level of greatness, the Balon d'Or went to someone who had a some sort of story, best example being Michael Owen.
 
JogaBonitoRooney said:
If Messi wins Copa and MLS with great performances he deserves it regardless of what the others do. Messi is the best full stop.

Otherwise it's Vini, good enough to win it now but especially if he carries Brazils and wins Copa.

Mbappe if he wins euro or France.

Wirtz or Kroos if one starts in euro for Germany.

Kane or Bellingham depending on who carries and wins euro for England.

Don't see who else should be in the conversation.
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Come off it. If he wins the Copa that’s all good, but the level he’s now playing at domestically should take him out of the discussion completely.

I think Vinicius should get it. If England were to win the euros Bellingham would get it; even if he disappears like he did in the Champions League knockouts I’m sure he’d still get it just by virtue of having gotten the medal.
 
Theonas said:
Vini would be my best player of the year also. But I disagree that it's clear. I don't think it's Benzema 2022 level clear for it to be an injustice if he doesn't win. I think he had an average first half of the campaign and his numbers aren't that exceptional. As I said, I still think he is the best but to be clearly the best, you need to do a bit more. When that is the case, it does open the door for a better story, I agree with that, but I am not sure that's necessarily new. It always felt that unless you were Rivaldo, Zidane, R9 or that level of greatness, the Balon d'Or went to someone who had a some sort of story, best example being Michael Owen.
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I agree, Vinicius would be one of the weakest winners in recent history at the current moment. Not saying he wouldn’t deserve it as you have to pick someone but there’s nobody truly outstanding.
 
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